Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement
Watchtower treachery - Printable Version

+- Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement (http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net)
+-- Forum: Biblical Topics (/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: The New Covenant (/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Thread: Watchtower treachery (/showthread.php?tid=5980)


Watchtower treachery - InChrist - 03-05-2010 02:50 AM

Garth said:Difference between Rachel's declared righteousness and that of the other sheep?

In Christ>> Garth, the apostle Paul would have loved to correct you. You purposefully try to cause a distinction here as to the word and meaning of Justification." ('Justified by faith: 'Right with God.
whoever puts faith and repents stays this way via Ish. 1:18, 1 John 1:9. Don't try and explain away Paul's clear doctrine. don't try to confuse the simple minded what Paul is saying....

Romans 4:3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness

For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.



Garth continues to prepare the simple minded for a 'new' meaning for the word justified as righteous. (You see, there is the biblical term, (1.) (The righteous. and, (2.) The unrighteous). But Garth is about to put 'new meaning' on all of this. Lets all listen in again to his twisted interpretation in his presentation, about, "Who are justified?"(3.?)
Garth continues>>> Rachel is declared righteous through faith in Jehovah. So too are the other sheep with 'the difference' being that in order for the other sheep to be delared righteous through their faith in Jehovah they must also have faith in Jesus Christ.

In Christ> (What he just insinuated was that only their so called, 144000 put faith in Jesus.) 'Wow,! That was just earth shattering information for us Garth! You should save that WT article and put it under your pillow at night. Boy Garth, that was really informative!' I mean, who would of ever thought that we must also have faith in Jesus Christ before ye are justified as righteous in the eyes of God???

Garth finishes with his smoke and mirrors>> 'Denying the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus would be a lack of faith in Jehovah.


InChrist>>Garth continues his smoke screen and his three pods and a pea, of who are justified as righteous and those who are 'unrighteous.' By the way. Have we all notice how the Jehovah Witness has studiously avoided 'clear bible passages to explain 'for him',or 'her' what they attempting to do from Watchtower 'books?'

Garth>>The scriptures say that Jesus will appoint 'princes' in the earth. I think we can assume that these 'princes' will be chosed from among the righteous rather than the unrighteous.

InChrist>> Garth after reading from Paul's defense of the 'Christian' doctrine of "Justification by faith, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that more than 144000, believing Jews (mentioned in Rev. 7)are justified as righteous in the eyes of God.' Paul was in direct opposition with the WT demonic teaching on who are in Christ and on this subject.The WT would teach any thing to keep its followers from 'partaking.'

“The Jonadabs are "not" even justified, because the receiving of life everlasting depends upon their obedience within God’s organization and faithfully abiding there until the wrath of God is passed at Armageddon.” WT April 1, 1938 p. 104


RE: Watchtower treachery - jayme - 03-05-2010 05:44 AM

Quote:
Garth continues>>> Rachel is declared righteous through faith in Jehovah. So too are the other sheep with 'the difference' being that in order for the other sheep to be delared righteous through their faith in Jehovah they must also have faith in Jesus Christ.

In Christ> (What he just insinuated was that only their so called, 144000 put faith in Jesus.) 'Wow,! That was just earth shattering information for us Garth! You should save that WT article and put it under your pillow at night. Boy Garth, that was really informative!' I mean, who would of ever thought that we must also have faith in Jesus Christ before ye are justified as righteous in the eyes of God???


In the quote above, I think you possibly meant to say "little flock" instead of "other sheep"

In JW theology the "other sheep" are the same as the "jonadabs" (not in the New Covenant), while the "little flock" are the same as the 144,000 (in the New Covenant).

It is all quite confusing. :funnyface:

And you are right, a treachery. :(

Welcome aboard! :friends:

:heartbeat:

Jayme


RE: Watchtower treachery - InChrist - 03-05-2010 06:15 AM

jayme Wrote:

Quote:
Garth continues>>> Rachel is declared righteous through faith in Jehovah. So too are the other sheep with 'the difference' being that in order for the other sheep to be delared righteous through their faith in Jehovah they must also have faith in Jesus Christ.

In Christ> (What he just insinuated was that only their so called, 144000 put faith in Jesus.) 'Wow,! That was just earth shattering information for us Garth! You should save that WT article and put it under your pillow at night. Boy Garth, that was really informative!' I mean, who would of ever thought that we must also have faith in Jesus Christ before ye are justified as righteous in the eyes of God???



In the quote above, I think you possibly meant to say "little flock" instead of "other sheep"

In JW theology the "other sheep" are the same as the "jonadabs" (not in the New Covenant), while the "little flock" are the same as the 144,000 (in the New Covenant).

It is all quite confusing. :funnyface:

And you are right, a treachery. :(

Welcome aboard! :friends:

:heartbeat:

Jayme


Hello Jayme,
God bless you there.

Yes the cult member does its best to confuse the simple word of God, Twisting the meaning of unclear passage and explain away the clear one.
They wrongly go about interpreting the bible by using an unclear passage to explain away the meaning of the 'clear' passage, that is explaining the 'unclear one.'

The word “Jonadabs,” was at that time given to the ‘average’ JW within the organization who were told that they could not partake of the Lord’s Supper "because" they were not yet justified as righteous in the eyes of God. But the bible says, (Romans 5:1) Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

Garth , (using WT mentality) how could they be made right with God, when the Watchtower, was not even around back then? How could billions abide in the WT if the WT wasn't around back then? ..So how were they saved?

Garth it is no secret what door the spirit behind the Watchtower guides people into. We see here ('again') what door this deceitful spirit places people in. It wants as many as possible to be held guilty of clinging to an idol rather than clinging to Jesus Christ. Jesus said , "I am the door, (not the Watchtower or the Mormons). 'ABIDE in me' (not your Watchtower idol) he said. Any thing other than Jesus is an idol. Any thing one would abide in , ('cling too') other than Jesus Christ is an idol.

May God have mercy on you for your demonic teaching. May God have mercy on you for attacking His Church, (Lk. 9:49-50 ). May god have mercy on you for insinuating that he could not see into the future far enough to see the Devil "overcome " the Church, (Matthew 16:18). By the way Garth and Abe, what generation was it that the devil overcame the Church? What generation was it?

Let's read this demonic statement again so that the lurkers in here can see your false message. Your false gospel.... The Jonadabs are "not" even justified, because the receiving of life everlasting depends upon.......... their obedience within God’s organization and faithfully abiding there (Emphases mine).

Garth you are like the rest of the Watchtower followers. Jesus tells his followers to abide in him and the WT tells you to abide in 'it'. Unlike the teaching of the bible, Your false gods of the WT twist the scriptures as long as they can on a subject like this, ('Who are justified')? After the 'jig is up,' and people began leaving because of this shameful twisting of scripture that has "ALWAYS" been diametrically opposite, of Apostle Paul's teaching on this subject of justification by 'faith'.

Now here you are with (spiritually blind) Abe, with your shameful 'clean up towels trying to 'mop up' the past teachings of the WT on this subject.

Yes the cult member does its best to confuse the simple word of God

InChrist


RE: Watchtower treachery - jayme - 03-05-2010 07:11 AM

Quote:
Now here you are with (spiritually blind) Abe, with your shameful 'clean up towels trying to 'mop up' the past teachings of the WT on this subject.


Hi InChrist, :hibye:

If you were addressing me in the quote above I am afraid that you misunderstood what I said.

I was in NO WAY trying to "mop up" any of these mixed up WT teachings.

I was simply pointing out that in your post you used the wrong terminology. To correctly get accross your accurate point, the term "little flock" should be used in the places were you used the term "other sheep". Otherwise the fine point that you were highlighting is lost.

For your statement: (What he just insinuated was that only their so called, 144000 put faith in Jesus.) to match with your previous statement: (So too are the other sheep with 'the difference' being that in order for the other sheep to be delared righteous through their faith in Jehovah they must also have faith in Jesus Christ) the term "other sheep" must be changed to "little flock" to be consistant with the mixed up WT theology and to accuratly make the point you are trying to make.


:giverose:

Jayme


RE: Watchtower treachery - man hu - 03-05-2010 11:28 AM

This topic seems to have started mid sentence.
Who is Garth?

InChrist please show respect for others and their opinions and drop the 'demonic' nonesense, thank you or report it as this topic has been.


RE: Watchtower treachery - InChrist - 03-05-2010 05:26 PM

man hu Wrote:
This topic seems to have started mid sentence.
Who is Garth?

InChrist please show respect for others and their opinions and drop the 'demonic' nonesense, thank you or report it as this topic has been.


Hello again Jayme my friend,

Please don't think I was in any way speaking to you. :heartbeat.

I also apologize for posting this in the wrong forum. but I guess in this case if the shoe fits (for a JW in here) they can wear it.
1 Timothy 4:1 that I quoted is for those who have been mesmerized by some of the cults teachings. Paul was warning the early Judizers they were falling from grace, as well as those listening to their teaching that was against Paul's defense of the Christian doctrine of 'justification by faith apart from works.

We want to love the cult member but not their teachings on such basic doctrines as Paul defended. He used 1 timothy 4:1 for such people.

I had two forums on my screen at one time and , well, I apologize to anyone I might have offended,(except the two names I mentioned and 'any other Watchtower follower who might read this.


RE: Watchtower treachery - smoldering wick - 03-06-2010 03:02 AM

InChrist Wrote:
I also apologize for posting this in the wrong forum. but I guess in this case if the shoe fits (for a JW in here) they can wear it.
......................
I had two forums on my screen at one time and , well, I apologize to anyone I might have offended,(except the two names I mentioned and 'any other Watchtower follower who might read this.

Whew! I thought for a minute it was one of those guys who thinks he can multitask like a woman!:sweaty:






RE: Watchtower treachery - Bangalore - 03-06-2010 06:07 AM

Are you referring to Gareth? He posts here as Wibble.

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


RE: Watchtower treachery - Beau Wetini - 03-06-2010 07:22 AM

Bangalore Wrote:
Are you referring to Gareth? He posts here as Wibble.

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore



I hope it is....Wibble needs a good reaming! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:



RE: Watchtower treachery - wolfie - 03-06-2010 08:27 AM

wasn't there a Garth on Al's board at one time? :thinking:
I remember him as being here too I think (or maybe e-watchman)--a watchtower defender who says he was never in the organization -but studied a time or two..just thinking.... :love:


RE: Watchtower treachery - Beau Wetini - 03-06-2010 08:37 AM

wolfie Wrote:
wasn't there a Garth on Al's board at one time? :thinking:
I remember him as being here too I think (or maybe e-watchman)--a watchtower defender who says he was never in the organization -but studied a time or two..just thinking.... :love:



LOL! Thats him sis.... :clap:


The "im not a Witness, im just studying, and have come to EXACTLY the same conclusions as JW's, using only the Bible" routine.

Thing is...if you read Gareth's posts, he writes just like an Insight volume -- writes like a Witness, talks like a Witness, defends like a Witness...but he isnt one.....

...me thinks Wibble is more like Wib-bull.


Cheers beautiful lady! :friends::friends::friends:



RE: Watchtower treachery - Bangalore - 03-06-2010 08:43 AM

He currently posts regularly at the Topix Forum. He is one of the biggest WT apologists there.

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


RE: Watchtower treachery - wolfie - 03-06-2010 08:53 AM

I remember him well for that reason--and it never added up to me either-and somehow his post found its way here--hummm :read:


RE: Watchtower treachery - Resolute - 03-06-2010 04:07 PM

Quote:
Thing is...if you read Gareth's posts, he writes just like an Insight volume -- writes like a Witness, talks like a Witness, defends like a Witness...but he isnt one.....


Quacks like a duck! :thinking:


RE: Watchtower treachery - TryingtToBuildYouUp - 12-13-2010 02:28 PM

Was just wandering what you peeps are saying the watchtower society got wrong. That the 144,000 are going to rule as kings over the earth? - Rev 5:9,10 7:4
or that there will be a massive great crowd that no one will be able to number who have the hope of everlasting life on earth? Rev 7:9, Rev 20:12,13. Isa 45:18
Restoration of earth to a paradise? - Ps 72:4-18
If everyone is going to rule as kings in heaven what are they gonna rule over?
Ive asked a lot of people who think they are going to heaven what they are going to do when they get there? A lot of people say that they don't know they will wait until they are there.The bible clearly states that they are chosen by god that they wont have to be taught and will rule over the earth.

The Basic teachings of the witnesses are quite easy to understand as they are gathered from the raw material of the bible.
Mistakes can be made just as the disciples did. But it is correcting and changing a teaching if you find that it is wrong that matters.

The quote from the WT April 1, 1938 p. 104
“The Jonadabs are "not" even justified, because the receiving of life everlasting depends upon their obedience within God’s organization and faithfully abiding there until the wrath of God is passed at Armageddon.”

This is a 70 year old watchtower. Witnesses nowadays are taught that it will all be up to Jehovah/Jesus/144000 to look into hearts of all People in all Nations/Religions and reap the harvest of sincere hearted individuals to be saved. Its not up to us and we do not think it will be exclusively Jehovah's Witnesses saved. Everyone will get chance to live on earth in paradise.
I am sure that if everyone on this forum is searching for the truth and if you have a sincere heart and want to get to know Jehovah and Jesus better then we will all hopefully see each other in the new system.

-

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
[/quote]




InChrist Wrote:
Garth said:Difference between Rachel's declared righteousness and that of the other sheep?

In Christ>> Garth, the apostle Paul would have loved to correct you. You purposefully try to cause a distinction here as to the word and meaning of Justification." ('Justified by faith: 'Right with God.
whoever puts faith and repents stays this way via Ish. 1:18, 1 John 1:9. Don't try and explain away Paul's clear doctrine. don't try to confuse the simple minded what Paul is saying....

Romans 4:3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness

For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.



Garth continues to prepare the simple minded for a 'new' meaning for the word justified as righteous. (You see, there is the biblical term, (1.) (The righteous. and, (2.) The unrighteous). But Garth is about to put 'new meaning' on all of this. Lets all listen in again to his twisted interpretation in his presentation, about, "Who are justified?"(3.?)
Garth continues>>> Rachel is declared righteous through faith in Jehovah. So too are the other sheep with 'the difference' being that in order for the other sheep to be delared righteous through their faith in Jehovah they must also have faith in Jesus Christ.

In Christ> (What he just insinuated was that only their so called, 144000 put faith in Jesus.) 'Wow,! That was just earth shattering information for us Garth! You should save that WT article and put it under your pillow at night. Boy Garth, that was really informative!' I mean, who would of ever thought that we must also have faith in Jesus Christ before ye are justified as righteous in the eyes of God???

Garth finishes with his smoke and mirrors>> 'Denying the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus would be a lack of faith in Jehovah.


InChrist>>Garth continues his smoke screen and his three pods and a pea, of who are justified as righteous and those who are 'unrighteous.' By the way. Have we all notice how the Jehovah Witness has studiously avoided 'clear bible passages to explain 'for him',or 'her' what they attempting to do from Watchtower 'books?'

Garth>>The scriptures say that Jesus will appoint 'princes' in the earth. I think we can assume that these 'princes' will be chosed from among the righteous rather than the unrighteous.

InChrist>> Garth after reading from Paul's defense of the 'Christian' doctrine of "Justification by faith, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that more than 144000, believing Jews (mentioned in Rev. 7)are justified as righteous in the eyes of God.' Paul was in direct opposition with the WT demonic teaching on who are in Christ and on this subject.The WT would teach any thing to keep its followers from 'partaking.'

“The Jonadabs are "not" even justified, because the receiving of life everlasting depends upon their obedience within God’s organization and faithfully abiding there until the wrath of God is passed at Armageddon.” WT April 1, 1938 p. 104




RE: Watchtower treachery - gogh - 12-13-2010 03:40 PM

Hi TryingtToBuildYouUp

Would you please expand a little regarding your statement:

"Its not up to us and we do not think it will be exclusively Jehovah's Witnesses saved. Everyone will get chance to live on earth in paradise."


It seems to me this is not an official/current position the Watchtower Organization teaches. Could you provide some Watchtower reference were this is taught?

(Contrary to your statement, it seems the Organization teaches one must be baptized (in good standing (not disfellowshipped), prior to the beginning of "The Tribulation" to be saved at Armageddon, as the "door" to safety (the Org.) will be shut at the onset of the Trib.)

Thanks,

gogh


RE: Watchtower treachery - Lauderdale - 12-13-2010 04:12 PM

TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:
Was just wandering what you peeps are saying the watchtower society got wrong. That the 144,000 are going to rule as kings over the earth? - Rev 5:9,10 7:4
or that there will be a massive great crowd that no one will be able to number who have the hope of everlasting life on earth? Rev 7:9, Rev 20:12,13. Isa 45:18
Restoration of earth to a paradise? - Ps 72:4-18
If everyone is going to rule as kings in heaven what are they gonna rule over?
Ive asked a lot of people who think they are going to heaven what they are going to do when they get there? A lot of people say that they don't know they will wait until they are there.The bible clearly states that they are chosen by god that they wont have to be taught and will rule over the earth.

The Basic teachings of the witnesses are quite easy to understand as they are gathered from the raw material of the bible.
Mistakes can be made just as the disciples did. But it is correcting and changing a teaching if you find that it is wrong that matters.

The quote from the WT April 1, 1938 p. 104
“The Jonadabs are "not" even justified, because the receiving of life everlasting depends upon their obedience within God’s organization and faithfully abiding there until the wrath of God is passed at Armageddon.”

This is a 70 year old watchtower. Witnesses nowadays are taught that it will all be up to Jehovah/Jesus/144000 to look into hearts of all People in all Nations/Religions and reap the harvest of sincere hearted individuals to be saved. Its not up to us and we do not think it will be exclusively Jehovah's Witnesses saved. Everyone will get chance to live on earth in paradise.
I am sure that if everyone on this forum is searching for the truth and if you have a sincere heart and want to get to know Jehovah and Jesus better then we will all hopefully see each other in the new system.

-

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.





InChrist Wrote:
Garth said:Difference between Rachel's declared righteousness and that of the other sheep?

In Christ>> Garth, the apostle Paul would have loved to correct you. You purposefully try to cause a distinction here as to the word and meaning of Justification." ('Justified by faith: 'Right with God.
whoever puts faith and repents stays this way via Ish. 1:18, 1 John 1:9. Don't try and explain away Paul's clear doctrine. don't try to confuse the simple minded what Paul is saying....

Romans 4:3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness

For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.



Garth continues to prepare the simple minded for a 'new' meaning for the word justified as righteous. (You see, there is the biblical term, (1.) (The righteous. and, (2.) The unrighteous). But Garth is about to put 'new meaning' on all of this. Lets all listen in again to his twisted interpretation in his presentation, about, "Who are justified?"(3.?)
Garth continues>>> Rachel is declared righteous through faith in Jehovah. So too are the other sheep with 'the difference' being that in order for the other sheep to be delared righteous through their faith in Jehovah they must also have faith in Jesus Christ.

In Christ> (What he just insinuated was that only their so called, 144000 put faith in Jesus.) 'Wow,! That was just earth shattering information for us Garth! You should save that WT article and put it under your pillow at night. Boy Garth, that was really informative!' I mean, who would of ever thought that we must also have faith in Jesus Christ before ye are justified as righteous in the eyes of God???

Garth finishes with his smoke and mirrors>> 'Denying the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus would be a lack of faith in Jehovah.


InChrist>>Garth continues his smoke screen and his three pods and a pea, of who are justified as righteous and those who are 'unrighteous.' By the way. Have we all notice how the Jehovah Witness has studiously avoided 'clear bible passages to explain 'for him',or 'her' what they attempting to do from Watchtower 'books?'

Garth>>The scriptures say that Jesus will appoint 'princes' in the earth. I think we can assume that these 'princes' will be chosed from among the righteous rather than the unrighteous.

InChrist>> Garth after reading from Paul's defense of the 'Christian' doctrine of "Justification by faith, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that more than 144000, believing Jews (mentioned in Rev. 7)are justified as righteous in the eyes of God.' Paul was in direct opposition with the WT demonic teaching on who are in Christ and on this subject.The WT would teach any thing to keep its followers from 'partaking.'

“The Jonadabs are "not" even justified, because the receiving of life everlasting depends upon their obedience within God’s organization and faithfully abiding there until the wrath of God is passed at Armageddon.” WT April 1, 1938 p. 104



Hello TryingtToBuildYouUp

gogh is right, i was taught the same thing so if it has changed i would like to see it as well. Thank you for your time

Lauderdale :cheer:


RE: Watchtower treachery - BruisedReed - 12-13-2010 04:43 PM

hello :hibye:and welcome :friends:to you TryingtToBuildYouUp!

Your name is so encouraging for that is indeed what we are here for! :grouphug:

First of all I would like to state right off that not everything I was as a witness since childhood has been wrong ... not can I regret that we were strongly encouraged to live a clean and moral life ...

But there ARE things that have been taught and are being taught now as 'new light' that can indeed be 'treacherous' if we were to believe them 'without question' and can cause the unwary and too trusting in MEN brothers and sisters to trip and fall if they do not open their hearts and hearts to JEHOVAH'S and CHRIST'S exhortations!

For example ...

You made this comment ...

... that there will be a massive great crowd that no one will be able to number who have the hope of everlasting life on earth? Rev 7:9, Rev 20:12,13. Isa 45:18


This is indeed what I would consider one of the cornerstone teachings of witnesses as it brings hope to countless millions!!:grouphug::grouphug::thumbsup:

It is because of this that I myself did a lot of research and meditating and praying over idea ...

In my studies I couldn't help but reflect on the TIMING of WHEN this 'great crowd' of individuals appear on the scene ...:thinking:

What do you think about the timing? :)

I do not mean to be argumentative or anything ... I am just curious to how you look at it ...

Warm Christian love, BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:


RE: Watchtower treachery - TryingtToBuildYouUp - 12-13-2010 05:26 PM

Everyone here is searching for the truth. If we all have a sincere heart then Jehovah and Jesus can see that! - Jer 17:10, Isa 11:3,4

Firstly they do teach that you have to be eventually excepting of the fact that Jehovah is God, Jesus is his son and show obedience to gods laws. But they teach that all the people who have never got to know accurate knowledge of Jehovah and Jesus will get the opportunity after Armageddon when they are resurrected as in Rev 20:12-15. In vs 12 another scroll is opened and we are going to be judged according to our deeds relating to that scroll.

So for all you deep studiers were gonna get hopefully a little bit more of the bible or that seems to be what it is suggesting.

Thankfully Satan is going to be bound for the 1000 years (Judgment Day) So all the misleading jumbled up ideas of all the multi religions will be done away with, Jesus will be ruling which will be ace and everyone will get the opportunity to learn the unadulterated truth. Those who fall away and reject the teachings then will be cut off.

As for being baptized and not dis-fellowshipped that is correct that they still believe that you need to be to get through Armageddon but apparently its going to be so obvious which the true religion is near the end it will be a clear choice yes or no, Black or white, Jehovah/Jesus or death.

Dan 12: 3 “And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.

4 “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”

Can get more info.
Taken from watchtower.org
When Jesus was on earth, he—as earth’s future King—could rightly say to the repentant evildoer impaled alongside him: “You will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43) The Paradise that Jesus had in mind would be on earth, as God originally purposed. This fact is well supported in the Bible. Consider the following texts.

“The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (Psalm 37:29) “There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; on the top of the mountains there will be an overflow.” (Psalm 72:16) “The upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it.” (Proverbs 2:21) “They [the blameless] will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.”—Isaiah 11:9.

In harmony with those statements, in his famous Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.” (Matthew 5:5) Later, the apostle John wrote: “The tent of God is with mankind . . . He will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:3, 4) Clearly, these Bible texts refer, not to a heavenly “paradise,” but to a physical one here on earth.
What Bible Scholars Have Said

Many Bible scholars maintain that under Christ’s Kingdom, earth will become a paradise. Said theologian Joseph A. Seiss: “The whole earth under the Messiah must then ultimately become . . . what it . . . would have been if Adam had never sinned.” In the commentary The New Testament for English Readers, Henry Alford wrote: “That kingdom of God . . . shall work onwards till it shall become actually a kingdom over this earth, and its subjects shall inherit the earth . . . , finally in its renewed and blessed state for ever.”—Italics his.

“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”
—Matthew 5:5

Likewise, famous scientist and keen student of the Bible Isaac Newton wrote: “The earth shall continue to be inhabited by mortals [humans] after the day of judgment and that not only for 1000 years, but even for ever.”

Because the earth will come under the direct rule of Jesus Christ, wickedness will never again take root. (Isaiah 11:1-5, 9) Yes, the earth will be a paradise in every respect, forever a credit to its Creator.

gogh Wrote:
Hi TryingtToBuildYouUp

Would you please expand a little regarding your statement:

"Its not up to us and we do not think it will be exclusively Jehovah's Witnesses saved. Everyone will get chance to live on earth in paradise."


It seems to me this is not an official/current position the Watchtower Organization teaches. Could you provide some Watchtower reference were this is taught?

(Contrary to your statement, it seems the Organization teaches one must be baptized (in good standing (not disfellowshipped), prior to the beginning of "The Tribulation" to be saved at Armageddon, as the "door" to safety (the Org.) will be shut at the onset of the Trib.)

Thanks,

gogh




RE: Watchtower treachery - ablebodiedman - 12-13-2010 05:42 PM

TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:
As for being baptized and not dis-fellowshipped that is correct that they still believe that you need to be to get through Armageddon but apparently its going to be so obvious which the true religion is near the end it will be a clear choice yes or no, Black or white, Jehovah/Jesus or death.



TryingtToBuildYouUp,

The scriptures seem to indicate the opposite.

Being disfellowshipped is probably a good thing!

Read and understand this scripture:

Isaiah 66:5
Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.”


There is only one religion on this planet who exclude brothers through the use of God's actual name.

Yes, please do some deep study.

Determine who will be put to shame.


The ones doing the disfellowshipping?

or

The ones being disfellowshipped?


The answer should be clear, yes or no, black or white.


Just trying to build you up.


In Christ

abe


RE: Watchtower treachery - e-magine - 12-13-2010 06:02 PM

Hi Trying!
Im not wanting to pick on you, but you keep stating things as fact that have been shown as wrong on this DB, so for the sake on new readers, I feel I must say something. For example, you seem to like to quote Jn 17:3;
John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
This is an inaccurate translation, as there is nothing in the Greek that means one must be in the process of "taking in" knowledge. Likewise, the word "number" doesn't exisit in vs.2 either. The reference to Rev.5:10 where the priests will rule over the Earth is also incorrect. It should read, "on the Earth. :thumbup: Check your "Kingdom Interlinear".


RE: Watchtower treachery - TryingtToBuildYouUp - 12-14-2010 01:02 AM

I like it when people say ''There is only one religion on this planet doing a certain thing'' and applying it to JW's.

Although i really do not find joy in the dis fellowshipping of anyone for straying and starting to be disobedient to what the bible says. After repetitive warnings and chances to refrain from deliberate sinning if a brother/sister does not react to discipline from gods word then we have to carry out what is in:-

Thessalonians 3:6 Now we are giving YOU orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition YOU received from us. 7 For YOU yourselves know the way YOU ought to imitate us, because we did not behave disorderly among YOU
3:14 But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. 15 And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.

So although we have to stop associating with him. We still admonish him as a brother. Ie show him love!!!

There is nothing to do with hate in disfellowshipping so
Isa 66:5
Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.”

We do not hate any people including disfellowshipped brothers/sisters so this scripture must be to do with something else!

try
John 16:2
Ga2:4
2Th 3

ablebodiedman Wrote:

TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:
As for being baptized and not dis-fellowshipped that is correct that they still believe that you need to be to get through Armageddon but apparently its going to be so obvious which the true religion is near the end it will be a clear choice yes or no, Black or white, Jehovah/Jesus or death.



TryingtToBuildYouUp,

The scriptures seem to indicate the opposite.

Being disfellowshipped is probably a good thing!

Read and understand this scripture:

Isaiah 66:5
Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.”


There is only one religion on this planet who exclude brothers through the use of God's actual name.

Yes, please do some deep study.

Determine who will be put to shame.


The ones doing the disfellowshipping?

or

The ones being disfellowshipped?


The answer should be clear, yes or no, black or white.


Just trying to build you up.


In Christ

abe




RE: Watchtower treachery - ablebodiedman - 12-14-2010 01:41 AM

TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:
I like it when people say ''There is only one religion on this planet doing a certain thing'' and applying it to JW's.

Although i really do not find joy in the dis fellowshipping of anyone for straying and starting to be disobedient to what the bible says. After repetitive warnings and chances to refrain from deliberate sinning if a brother/sister does not react to discipline from gods word then we have to carry out what is in:-

Thessalonians 3:6 Now we are giving YOU orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition YOU received from us. 7 For YOU yourselves know the way YOU ought to imitate us, because we did not behave disorderly among YOU
3:14 But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. 15 And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.

So although we have to stop associating with him. We still admonish him as a brother. Ie show him love!!!

There is nothing to do with hate in disfellowshipping so
Isa 66:5
Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.”

We do not hate any people including disfellowshipped brothers/sisters so this scripture must be to do with something else!

try
John 16:2
Ga2:4
2Th 3

ablebodiedman Wrote:

TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:
As for being baptized and not dis-fellowshipped that is correct that they still believe that you need to be to get through Armageddon but apparently its going to be so obvious which the true religion is near the end it will be a clear choice yes or no, Black or white, Jehovah/Jesus or death.



TryingtToBuildYouUp,

The scriptures seem to indicate the opposite.

Being disfellowshipped is probably a good thing!

Read and understand this scripture:

Isaiah 66:5
Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.”


There is only one religion on this planet who exclude brothers through the use of God's actual name.

Yes, please do some deep study.

Determine who will be put to shame.


The ones doing the disfellowshipping?

or

The ones being disfellowshipped?


The answer should be clear, yes or no, black or white.


Just trying to build you up.


In Christ

abe



TryingtToBuildYouUp,

Guess you did not understand the scripture;

Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word:


His word is the bible.

Its ok if you did not understand the first time round, just keep trying.


It will build you up.

In Christ


abe


RE: Watchtower treachery - ablebodiedman - 12-14-2010 01:45 AM

TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:
Although i really do not find joy in the dis fellowshipping of anyone for straying and starting to be disobedient to what the bible says.


TryingtToBuildYouUp,

I also don't find joy in people being disobedient to what the Bible says.

Luke 21:7-8
He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.

Thats why I like this forum.

There are a lot of people who obey the bible.... and Jesus Christ.

Keep coming here and we will build you up!


In Christ

abe


RE: Watchtower treachery - TryingtToBuildYouUp - 12-14-2010 02:23 AM

Thank you for your message.

The great crowd come through the great tribulation - Rev 7:14
As to when this great tribulation starts and finishes i don't like to speculate as much as some people on when and how things in the future will happen. To many times have people got it wrong! All i am sure about is that Jehovah will protect anyone he sees fit to go through and the wicked will be destroyed.
When the mass resurrection happens they are going to have to be taught the ways of Jehovah and Jesus so will they all come to life at the same time or gradually over the thousand years?
Will go away and do some studying. Thank you for your comment.

Brotherly love:friends::grouphug:
ttbyu

Quote:
For example ...

You made this comment ...

... that there will be a massive great crowd that no one will be able to number who have the hope of everlasting life on earth? Rev 7:9, Rev 20:12,13. Isa 45:18


This is indeed what I would consider one of the cornerstone teachings of witnesses as it brings hope to countless millions!!:grouphug::grouphug::thumbsup:

It is because of this that I myself did a lot of research and meditating and praying over idea ...

In my studies I couldn't help but reflect on the TIMING of WHEN this 'great crowd' of individuals appear on the scene ...:thinking:

What do you think about the timing? :)

I do not mean to be argumentative or anything ... I am just curious to how you look at it ...

Warm Christian love, BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:




RE: Watchtower treachery - BruisedReed - 12-14-2010 03:53 PM

Hello again br. ttbyu! :hibye:

Thanks for your thoughts ... :)

You said ...

The great crowd come through the great tribulation - Rev 7:14


I too used to think this way ... and I notice a ... at least to me ... very important word thought and thus conclusion by the use of the word 'THROUGH the great tribulation' ... :thinking:

Going by the premise that 'he that is faithful BIG things must also be faithful in SMALL things ... I think it would be safe to say the this would apply in principle to understanding of words and translation ... may I respectfully make this observation to you ...?:giverose:

The scripture :read: in Rev. 7:14 says according to the NWT ...

” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come [color=#000080]out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [/color] ... (not 'through)

Now if you look at our Diaglott we find that the Greek word for 'out of' is this ...

G1537 ἐκ, ἐξ

ek ex ek, ex


A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Now, when we read this scripture in light of the setting ...

Rev. 7:3-15 ...

9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! The blessing and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength [be] to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.


Now, when I stopped to think on these thoughts one day I couldn't help but reflect upon ... as the scriptures themselves say the earlier writings were written for warning (or lesson) for us now living ... of the Israelites when they went through a 'tribulation' of sorts when they experienced the 10 plagues ...

There already WERE faithful Israelites living in Egypt who also benefited from seeing these miraculous feats which would only reinforce their faith ... but what about all those OTHERS who were living there at that time?

Those OTHERS ... of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues ... was it not BECAUSE OF these plagues that hearts were touched and they BELIEVED and REPENTED and left WITH the FAITHFUL ISRAELITES .. as a VAST MIXED COMPANY? :thinking::dontknow:

This account along with a deeper understanding of what the meaning of the words 'OUT OF' meant in the Greek language opened up this scripture in Revelation for me so beautifully and wonderfully ...

That the Great Tribulation wasn't just about destruction and hard times for the world including our brothers and sisters ...

But a time of a sort of 'last chance' to reach the hearts of the 'world' ... to cause them to see and experience and feel the awesome Power of God and his Son and to have the OPPORTUNITY TO REPENT ...!!!:cheer:

Thus the expression ... 'washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'

Haven't 'witnesses' ALREADY done that ...? In the context it would appear that the 'washing' was something 'new' for these ones ... and thus to me this scripture of the future hope of MILLIONS MORE becoming clean in God's eyes takes on even GREATER SIGNIFICANCE for our spiritual family (which is pretty well numbered right now) will truly be INNUMBERABLE!!!

What a blessing and what a shout of praise will arise from the earth indeed as this great crowd appears on the scene to join in with the ones who have already chosen to serve God and walk in the footsteps of our Lord!!

What do you think ...? Does this make sense to you?

Christian love, BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:


RE: Watchtower treachery - e-magine - 12-14-2010 04:33 PM

HiBR :giverose:
You have made me think on how nobody can claim to be in the Great Crowd at this time; not until the G Trib. is over and the GC comes out of it. Then they will be standing before the throne.:thumbup:


RE: Watchtower treachery - TryingtToBuildYouUp - 12-14-2010 11:28 PM

Hello Bruised Reed,

You make perfect sense and i apologize for my mistake in saying

Come through that was my mistake you are right OUT OF is the right way it is translated it makes sense that there will be a mass repentance and turning to god. :thumbsup:

Jehovahs witnesses have not washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb yet.

Witnesses i have spoken too believe that there will be this mass turning to god and a future hope of MILLIONS MORE becoming clean in God's eyes.

What you said makes brilliant sense!!:)

Quote:
This account along with a deeper understanding of what the meaning of the words 'OUT OF' meant in the Greek language opened up this scripture in Revelation for me so beautifully and wonderfully ...

That the Great Tribulation wasn't just about destruction and hard times for the world including our brothers and sisters ...

But a time of a sort of 'last chance' to reach the hearts of the 'world' ... to cause them to see and experience and feel the awesome Power of God and his Son and to have the OPPORTUNITY TO REPENT ...!!!:cheer:

Thus the expression ... 'washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'

Haven't 'witnesses' ALREADY done that ...? In the context it would appear that the 'washing' was something 'new' for these ones ... and thus to me this scripture of the future hope of MILLIONS MORE becoming clean in God's eyes takes on even GREATER SIGNIFICANCE for our spiritual family (which is pretty well numbered right now) will truly be INNUMBERABLE!!!

What a blessing and what a shout of praise will arise from the earth indeed as this great crowd appears on the scene to join in with the ones who have already chosen to serve God and walk in the footsteps of our Lord!!

What do you think ...? Does this make sense to you?

Christian love, BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:




RE: Watchtower treachery - digging - 12-15-2010 04:57 AM

Just for the record i don't believe we on this board are all 100% in agreement on some major events we are all looking forwards to happening. That being said I also don't believe our salvation is based on pure doctrinal accuracy.
Thus I wish to share that I believe no one goes to heaven but simply some people receive thier restoration earlier than others, and they are the beginning of the bride, the beginning of God's Kingdom that grows and fills the whole earth.

In Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, " Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals ; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

The word 'purchased' also mentioned in Rev 14:3 "And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders ; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth."

This is simply a different way of explaining the resurrection from the 'earth' ground, the dust Adam returned to. Because Jesus ransomed mankind, paid a price, purchased.

The first group of people resurrected are a limited group because only so many became faithful believers in the age. So they are call the firstfruits, they are the beginning, so the number 144,000 which is also linked with the citys size. Recall everyone must enter the city!

However many, many, many others will come from hearing what the spirit and the bride say and join themselves into one group of believers equal under thier Father. Everyone will become a king, a king over themselves reigning in life, with the crown of life.

Digging


RE: Watchtower treachery - Beau Wetini - 12-15-2010 05:24 AM

I love it how the words "Watchtower" and "Treachery" seem to work so well together...almost like they are synonymous! :D:D:D


RE: Watchtower treachery - ablebodiedman - 12-15-2010 01:07 PM

Beau Wetini Wrote:
I love it how the words "Watchtower" and "Treachery" seem to work so well together...almost like they are synonymous! :D:D:D


Beau,

When I can see the hundreds of thousands of completely shattered once wholesome family units around the world through examining the testimonies on the Internet, the word treachery seems like an understatement.


Jesus Christ said we could measure them by their fruitage.


I think Micah hit the bullseye when he said:

Micah 3:1-4
And I proceeded to say: “Hear, please, YOU heads of Jacob and YOU commanders of the house of Israel. Is it not YOUR business to know justice? 2 YOU haters of what is good and lovers of badness, tearing off their skin from people and their organism from off their bones; 3 YOU the ones who have also eaten the organism of my people, and have stripped their very skin from off them, and smashed to pieces their very bones, and crushed [them] to pieces like what is in a widemouthed pot and like flesh in the midst of a cooking pot. 4 At that time they will call to Jehovah for aid, but he will not answer them. And he will conceal his face from them in that time, according as they committed badness in their dealings.


In regard to their treachery a fearful judgment is waiting:


Isaiah 33:1
Woe to you who are despoiling, without you yourself being despoiled, and to you who are dealing treacherously, without [others] having dealt treacherously with you! As soon as you have finished as a despoiler, you will be despoiled. As soon as you have done with dealing treacherously, they will deal treacherously with you.



In Christ

abe


RE: Watchtower treachery - e-magine - 12-15-2010 03:29 PM

digging Wrote:
Just for the record i don't believe we on this board are all 100% in agreement on some major events we are all looking forwards to happening. That being said I also don't believe our salvation is based on pure doctrinal accuracy.
Thus I wish to share that I believe no one goes to heaven but simply some people receive their restoration earlier than others, and they are the beginning of the bride, the beginning of God's Kingdom that grows and fills the whole earth.

Digging


Hi Dig!
I also share your beliefs on Heaven and the resurection.
Sometimes we state what we believe as if everyone agrees with us.
Preferencing statements with "I believe" is a good idea.

I believe that heaven is a state, not a place, and that it can exist on Earth. I also believe that 144K is a symbolic number and that these First Fruits are those who become believers while under duress living in this imperfect world. They are declared rightous and receive an earlier resurection along with the Great Crowd who come through the G. Trib. This occures "at the same time", and is future.
They all are in the New Covenant and are anointed with HS. The rest are the unrighteous who will be resurected later. These will receive life at the end of the M. Reign. :heartbeat:


RE: Watchtower treachery - gogh - 12-15-2010 03:43 PM

1John 3:1...

"See what kind of love the Father has given us in letting us be called God's children. And that is what we are! For this reason the world does not recognize us, because it did not recognize him either.
Dear friends, we are now God's children, but what we will be like has not been revealed yet. We know that when Christ is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him as he is.
And everyone who has this hope based on him keeps himself pure, just as he is pure."


:drinking:


RE: Watchtower treachery - TryingtToBuildYouUp - 12-15-2010 10:54 PM

The thing i have realized over the past 4 days of being on this forum is that there is lots of ridiculing:funnyface: and UN-Christian comments. Lots of arguing:rant: and not to much Love:dontknow: expressed through this forum. I am starting to realize that the impersonal nature of discussing things over the Internet is not the way to go with this. Although i will keep an eye on some things and will search ideas brought up that are conflicting to my beliefs but could shed enlightenment on me. I believe this is not encouraging accurate learning of the bible. It is merely hammering people who dont believe what you believe.
If bashing the watchtower makes you feel better about your beliefs then fine. Maybe the old ways of what many JWs used to do has rubbed off into your new found belief. I don't know.

The changed person that i have become as i have gone back to the Jehovah's witnesses has made me not dogmatic in my beliefs i am willing to learn change and ask the elders/governing body hard questions till i find the truth. In 13 years the organization has changed beyond belief from what i remember. There general attitude is different. Showing it to be one of the most progressive organized religions in the world.

If this is a Christian encouragement discussion forum and 80% of the way you get encouraged is by agreeing with each other about hating the Watchtower and GB. Then i dont want anything to do with this HATE. Jesus did not hate he only showed love

It proves yourselves as UN-Christian as you believe the faithfull and descreet slave class to be.

Over the 4 days of being on the forum this bickering tit for tat attitude:angry: has rubbed of on me which i will not allow to progress. I am very imperfect and i need to associate with a whole lot of love around me.:heartbeat::):heartbeat:

Bruised Reed is probably the most respectful and loving communicator using this forum.:giverose:

I leave you all In Jehovah and Jesus hands.:thumbsup: They will guide you to the fountains of truths.:read: Be carefull not to dismiss anything to quickly and i shall endevour to do the same.

Please don't mistake this for giving up.:dontknow: The bible just says that you should not reprove (correct) a ridiculer.:angry:

All my love and hope for the future

thanks for some of the ideas and research topics!

Trying to build you up :grouphug:


Proverbs 9:8,9 - Do not reprove a ridiculer, that he may not hate you. Give a reproof to a wise person and he will love you. Give to a wise person and he will become still wiser. Impart knowledge to someone righteous and he will increase in learning.


Beau Wetini Wrote:
Beau Wetini Wrote:
I love it how the words "Watchtower" and "Treachery" seem to work so well together...almost like they are synonymous! Big GrinBig GrinBig Grin

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Beau,

When I can see the hundreds of thousands of completely shattered once wholesome family units around the world through examining the testimonies on the Internet, the word treachery seems like an understatement.


Jesus Christ said we could measure them by their fruitage.


''When I can see the hundreds of thousands'' - May i politely ask if you have hundreds of thousands of testimonies?:readthis:

You mean the dedicated websites that are set up to bash the witnesses and have nothing but the bad points brought up and lined up in a fashion to make you think that we are all like that.

Please don't think that we teach these bad things. They are done by bad Jehovahs witnesses!

Also may i politely say :giverose:
Completely shattered once wholesome family units are commonplace in every religion. Catholics/Protestants Christians/Non-Christians. Please wake up and don't just target JW's on this forum.

This is why i am not commenting any more.

Warm christian love:heartbeat: from a

Jehovah's Witness







gogh Wrote:

:drinking:




RE: Watchtower treachery - Beau Wetini - 12-15-2010 11:46 PM

No offence, TTBYU....but you may be projecting subconscious conflictions here, just a tad. :dontknow:

Yes, sister Bruisedreed is a wonderful person - one of many. :giverose:


Learn to be less controlling of how things SHOULD be. Things cant always be how we want them to be - especially on the internet - like life, it has its ups and downs. This isnt a forum of Jehovahs Witnesses, nor is it a forum of newbies who know nothing about JW beliefs -- most people here have researched Watchtower beliefs front to back, and have since either agreed with, modified or completely changed their beliefs as a result.

Most people on this forum have been burnt by the Watchtower in some way, shape or form - and most do not hold the Watchtower in a good light (as you may have guessed, im one of them). Believe it or not, im actually not as bad as I used to be, in fact, my emotion when thinking of the Watchtower, has gone from a strong hatred, to more of a sadness - its just not as important for me to bash the Watchtower -- except on some issues, like the Blood issue, or when they try to say that only THEY are God's people...etc. But thats about it. Its kinda a waste of time to repeat the obvious......and people need their own journey to figure things out for themselves.


Go take a break, and then come back -- 4 days isnt long enough to make a judgement call -- and you need to be OK with the fact that people are at different stages -- you have to be OK with the fact, that some people are HURT and some are ANGRY and some people feel very strong emotion when it comes to things, like the Watchtower, or certain Watchtower beliefs -- you need to be OK with that - and let people be.

This isnt a Kingdom hall where people are fronting as to how they feel or how things are -- or where everyone is forced to believe EXACTLY the same things......its ok to be an individual, TTBYU....



TTBYU Wrote:
Completely shattered once wholesome family units are commonplace in every religion. Catholics/Protestants Christians/Non-Christians. Please wake up and don't just target JW's on this forum.



Of course, you are correct here - EVERY religion has destroyed something of someone's....whether it was their family, their community, their culture or their country - they are all capable of these things.

But most of us werent part of any other religion -- most of us have been JW's.....I dont want to know about other religions....one has already wasted enough of my time.....dont need another one!


Anyway.....stay around mate....you will find that things arent as bad as you may think they are....:grouphug::friends::funnyface::D



RE: Watchtower treachery - ablebodiedman - 12-16-2010 12:04 AM

TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Beau,

When I can see the hundreds of thousands of completely shattered once wholesome family units around the world through examining the testimonies on the Internet, the word treachery seems like an understatement.


Jesus Christ said we could measure them by their fruitage.


''When I can see the hundreds of thousands'' - May i politely ask if you have hundreds of thousands of testimonies?:readthis:

You mean the dedicated websites that are set up to bash the witnesses and have nothing but the bad points brought up and lined up in a fashion to make you think that we are all like that.

Please don't think that we teach these bad things. They are done by bad Jehovahs witnesses!

Also may i politely say :giverose:
Completely shattered once wholesome family units are commonplace in every religion. Catholics/Protestants Christians/Non-Christians. Please wake up and don't just target JW's on this forum.

This is why i am not commenting any more.

Warm christian love:heartbeat: from a

Jehovah's Witness


TryingtToBuildYouUp,

Nothing I have said in the above post is untrue.

I do understand why however, a Jehovah's Witness getting out onto the Internet for the first time might be shocked and dismayed at what he eventually finds.

I went through the same thing myself.

Here is just one search criteria in the English Language only.

Please keep in mind that English speaking Jehovah's Witnesses represent only about 2 million of the total JWs.

About 179,000 results (0.42 seconds)





Now since this is a: Bible Research forum I will quote a scripture:

Luke 12:49-53
“I came to start a fire on the earth, and what more is there for me to wish if it has already been lighted? 50 Indeed, I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how I am being distressed until it is finished! 51 Do YOU imagine I came to give peace on the earth? No, indeed, I tell YOU, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against [her] mother, mother-in-law against [her] daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against [her] mother-in-law.”


Now I will tell you that a very large number of Jehovah's Witnesses are being disfellowshipped because of their concern with Jesus Christs baptism.

That is exactly why I was disfellowshipped.

I was concerned about Jesus Christs commandments!

I am absolutely convinced that Jehovah's Witnesses are fulfilling the scripture above.

Now in order to lovingly build you up I will quote another scripture which explains how all this will eventually be resolved by Jesus Christ right at The conclusion of the system of things.

All of those righteous brothers and sisters who have been disfellowshipped becasue they were trembling at Jesus Christs commandments will then shine IN the kingdom.

Matthew 13:39-43
The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


Is that not a loving thing for Jesus Christ to do!

Those people who have been abused by men following mens commandments will be rightfully restored after being persecuted, reproached and lyingly spoken about just because they took a stand for Jesus Christ.

I hope this has built you up and restored your confidence in Jesus Christ and his promises.


After all, this is a place for Bible Research and Christian Encouragement.


Thank you for asking me to elaborate on my strong statement above.

If you have anymore questions I will endeavor to try and answer them truthfully as I have this one.

That is .................. the loving thing to do!



In Christ

abe


RE: Watchtower treachery - TryingtToBuildYouUp - 12-16-2010 02:10 AM

I am sorry i was wrong you have 179000 testimonies!

I have a very strong and large family.:grouphug: My sister:siskiss: was dis fellowshipped and at the time i thought it was not fair.:angry: But i am afraid that it is gods standards:read: that we live by not mans so i am afraid we have to do what the bible says with regards to dis fellowshipping. Thankfully she was reinstated.:cheer:

Half of my family don't go to the meetings and do not preach. However we are a very strong tight family and are completely one unit. We love each other so much and i think about them every day! Nothing can break us. I believe my family are the most important part of my life second only to Jehovah and Jesus. This is because of what i have been taught from the bible:read: as a Jehovah's witness.

Some witness families break down if it is like this in there families and that is a massive shame.:(

Normally people blame this on Jehovah's Witnesses view of upholding what paul wrote to the thessalonians in
2 The 3:6-15

Now we are giving YOU orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition YOU received from us. For YOU yourselves know the way YOU ought to imitate us, because we did not behave disorderly among YOU... For YOUR part, brothers, do not give up in doing right. But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed.

Remember it is Jehovah's rules not mans rules we must obey. Although many people think that Jehovah's rules are unfair hence the reason for a lot of your results from your search criteria.

Many people mistake JW ideas as their own when really they are Jehovah's we just are some of the only ones that uphold his rules. Much to peoples anger it seems.:rant:

Maybe the prophecy does relate to Jehovah's witnesses.

It does build me up that Jesus will sort out this mess we are in and im glad you have that hope!!!!!:thumbup:

once again i am sorry for implying you didn't have the testimonies!!:giverose:

Sorry

Trying






ablebodiedman Wrote:

TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Beau,

When I can see the hundreds of thousands of completely shattered once wholesome family units around the world through examining the testimonies on the Internet, the word treachery seems like an understatement.


Jesus Christ said we could measure them by their fruitage.


''When I can see the hundreds of thousands'' - May i politely ask if you have hundreds of thousands of testimonies?:readthis:

You mean the dedicated websites that are set up to bash the witnesses and have nothing but the bad points brought up and lined up in a fashion to make you think that we are all like that.

Please don't think that we teach these bad things. They are done by bad Jehovahs witnesses!

Also may i politely say :giverose:
Completely shattered once wholesome family units are commonplace in every religion. Catholics/Protestants Christians/Non-Christians. Please wake up and don't just target JW's on this forum.

This is why i am not commenting any more.

Warm christian love:heartbeat: from a

Jehovah's Witness


TryingtToBuildYouUp,

Nothing I have said in the above post is untrue.

I do understand why however, a Jehovah's Witness getting out onto the Internet for the first time might be shocked and dismayed at what he eventually finds.

I went through the same thing myself.

Here is just one search criteria in the English Language only.

Please keep in mind that English speaking Jehovah's Witnesses represent only about 2 million of the total JWs.

About 179,000 results (0.42 seconds)





Now since this is a: Bible Research forum I will quote a scripture:

Luke 12:49-53
“I came to start a fire on the earth, and what more is there for me to wish if it has already been lighted? 50 Indeed, I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how I am being distressed until it is finished! 51 Do YOU imagine I came to give peace on the earth? No, indeed, I tell YOU, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against [her] mother, mother-in-law against [her] daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against [her] mother-in-law.”


Now I will tell you that a very large number of Jehovah's Witnesses are being disfellowshipped because of their concern with Jesus Christs baptism.

That is exactly why I was disfellowshipped.

I was concerned about Jesus Christs commandments!

I am absolutely convinced that Jehovah's Witnesses are fulfilling the scripture above.

Now in order to lovingly build you up I will quote another scripture which explains how all this will eventually be resolved by Jesus Christ right at The conclusion of the system of things.

All of those righteous brothers and sisters who have been disfellowshipped becasue they were trembling at Jesus Christs commandments will then shine IN the kingdom.

Matthew 13:39-43
The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


Is that not a loving thing for Jesus Christ to do!

Those people who have been abused by men following mens commandments will be rightfully restored after being persecuted, reproached and lyingly spoken about just because they took a stand for Jesus Christ.

I hope this has built you up and restored your confidence in Jesus Christ and his promises.


After all, this is a place for Bible Research and Christian Encouragement.


Thank you for asking me to elaborate on my strong statement above.

If you have anymore questions I will endeavor to try and answer them truthfully as I have this one.

That is .................. the loving thing to do!



In Christ

abe




RE: Watchtower treachery - ablebodiedman - 12-16-2010 03:13 AM

TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:
Remember it is Jehovah's rules not mans rules we must obey. Although many people think that Jehovah's rules are unfair hence the reason for a lot of your results from your search criteria.

Many people mistake JW ideas as their own when really they are Jehovah's we just are some of the only ones that uphold his rules. Much to peoples anger it seems.:rant:

Maybe the prophecy does relate to Jehovah's witnesses.


TryingtToBuildYouUp,

Yep, I am trying to live by Jesus Christs rules.

After all that is what Jehovah said; "This is my son listen to him".

I do believe that at one time the Jehovah's Witnesses had a fairly good grasp on the baptismal requirements commanded by Jesus Christ. They also understood that they should listen to him.

For instance look up this quote from a Watchtower Magazine on your CD Library:


Quote:
w55 7/1 p. 411 Christian Baptism for the New World Society

15 A Christian, therefore, cannot be baptized in the name of the one actually doing the immersing or in the name of any man, nor in the name of any organization, but in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit. This shows, among other things, that Christianity is not a denominational affair, that sects have nothing to do with it.



So why do Jehovah's Witnesses now disobey Jesus Christ?

Do some research.

Ask some questions.

That is why you are here isn't it?

I hope you are not here to tell us we should be repentant about our desire to obey Jesus Christ in order that we might be re-instated.

I am quite certain that most on this forum would much rather continue being reproached and lyingly spoken about by their former congregations than disobey Jesus Christ.

Matthew 5:11-12
“Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. 12 Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.



In Christ

abe


RE: Watchtower treachery - Lauderdale - 12-16-2010 11:35 AM

TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:
I am sorry i was wrong you have 179000 testimonies!

I have a very strong and large family.:grouphug: My sister:siskiss: was dis fellowshipped and at the time i thought it was not fair.:angry: But i am afraid that it is gods standards:read: that we live by not mans so i am afraid we have to do what the bible says with regards to dis fellowshipping. Thankfully she was reinstated.:cheer:

Half of my family don't go to the meetings and do not preach. However we are a very strong tight family and are completely one unit. We love each other so much and i think about them every day! Nothing can break us. I believe my family are the most important part of my life second only to Jehovah and Jesus. This is because of what i have been taught from the bible:read: as a Jehovah's witness.

Some witness families break down if it is like this in there families and that is a massive shame.:(

Normally people blame this on Jehovah's Witnesses view of upholding what paul wrote to the thessalonians in
2 The 3:6-15

Now we are giving YOU orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition YOU received from us. For YOU yourselves know the way YOU ought to imitate us, because we did not behave disorderly among YOU... For YOUR part, brothers, do not give up in doing right. But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed.

Remember it is Jehovah's rules not mans rules we must obey. Although many people think that Jehovah's rules are unfair hence the reason for a lot of your results from your search criteria.

Many people mistake JW ideas as their own when really they are Jehovah's we just are some of the only ones that uphold his rules. Much to peoples anger it seems.:rant:

Maybe the prophecy does relate to Jehovah's witnesses.

It does build me up that Jesus will sort out this mess we are in and im glad you have that hope!!!!!:thumbup:

once again i am sorry for implying you didn't have the testimonies!!:giverose:

Sorry

Trying









Hello tryingtobuildyouup

I want you to understand, nobody here is hating you or mad at you .
Some of the brothers and sisters on this site had been or still is Jehovahs witnesses for 30, 40 years or more. The GB has rules very strict ones and if anybody steps out of line then they get the AXE.

You said it yourself (( Remember it is Jehovah's rules not mans rules we must obey. Although many people think that Jehovah's rules are unfair hence the reason for a lot of your results from your search criteria. ))

A lot of things that the GB did made some of these brother and sisters raise an eyebrow, but when it came out that they had gone into bed with the ((UN )) !! So when nothing was done about it , they gave the GB the AXE!

These brothers and sistrers and other people have given WTBS and the GB the AXE or Divorce. BUT THEY DID NOT DIVORCE JESUS OR JEHOVAH.

These brothers and sisters applied the same rules that the WTBS and GB applied to us! Because it is Jesus and Jehovahs rules that they are following.

When you say the WTBS or GB says, this is what gets everybody in an up roar but if you say Jesus or jehovah says and quote Scriptures you will come out a lot better, because everybody here is trying their best to follow Jesus and Jehovah.



Lauderdale :cheer::groupwave:


RE: Watchtower treachery - SoldierOfChrist - 12-16-2010 12:31 PM

Right on 100percent bro!
Though, i believe heaven is a state/place more of a dimesional state,just as the abyss is a state

e-magine Wrote:

I believe that heaven is a state, not a place, and that it can exist on Earth. I also believe that 144K is a symbolic number and that these First Fruits are those who become believers while under duress living in this imperfect world. They are declared rightous and receive an earlier resurection along with the Great Crowd who come through the G. Trib. This occures "at the same time", and is future.
They all are in the New Covenant and are anointed with HS. The rest are the unrighteous who will be resurected later. These will receive life at the end of the M. Reign. :heartbeat:




RE: Watchtower treachery - digging - 12-16-2010 10:25 PM

Yes there is some interesting things to think about on that point of heaven on earth. One thing I noticed is the Temple had trees and angels side by side all around on the inside and the priest was to enter that special building to communicate with YHWH. So it would seem to me it's like a spot where heaven meets earth, because trees are on earth and angels in heaven. It also reminds me of the garden of Eden they could speak with God & it was full of trees and had an angel guarding the gate, and they were put out of it. Perhaps this has been talked about alot already? I've spent much time on this one subject, but perhaps we can have a little go at it again?? Share little bits we've gleened?

Digging


RE: Watchtower treachery - Beau Wetini - 12-16-2010 10:41 PM

digging Wrote:
Yes there is some interesting things to think about on that point of heaven on earth. One thing I noticed is the Temple had trees and angels side by side all around on the inside and the priest was to enter that special building to communicate with YHWH. So it would seem to me it's like a spot where heaven meets earth, because trees are on earth and angels in heaven. It also reminds me of the garden of Eden they could speak with God & it was full of trees and had an angel guarding the gate, and they were put out of it. Perhaps this has been talked about alot already? I've spent much time on this one subject, but perhaps we can have a little go at it again?? Share little bits we've glenned?

Digging



Digging...I LOVE your thoughts in this area - I used to read them on Pathways....please continue! :friends::friends::friends:


RE: Watchtower treachery - digging - 12-17-2010 03:43 AM

Should we start a new topic or continue here??

Digging


RE: Watchtower treachery - digging - 12-18-2010 05:58 AM

Well I'll just continue here then.

This same pattern carries to Rev and the new city. Same thing trees, angels, gold and the temple with believers having communication with YHWH.

The city is a cube this also is a most powerful symbol for the earth. Because all things of the phycial world is definded by being three dimentional, have length, height, Width.... Just as the city is mentioned. However the city is not a real city of buildings but it is made of all the righteous children of God whom to him are like beautiful gem stones. The city comes down out of heaven the moment of the resurrection of the firstfruits/bride because thier names have been recorded with him in the book of life.

Remember how the high priest had the breast plate with 12 gem stones and on those stones were the names of the 12 tribes? Wellllll once again if you look at this carefully you will see something else.
The breast plate was carried over his heart and the front plate which was square by the way had a second back plate on his back tied to the front plate. What did that make??? Simular to the city because the 12 stones, 12 names, gold and the shape of a cube if you look at it you see a cube enclosing the HEART of the high priest.....

Jesus said his body was the temple.

YHWH said he will write his law on our hearts, where were the stone tablets kept? In the ark in the most holy = our heart.
There was Gods light that was always there about the ark and the city is to have no night, and we are to let our light shine....

If you think New Jerusalem is heaven how can that be because the Garden of Eden had the tree of life also and Adam and Eve were there.

Digging


RE: Watchtower treachery - SoldierOfChrist - 12-21-2010 11:58 PM

Start a new thread about it, feel free to drop me a line


digging Wrote:
Well I'll just continue here then.

This same pattern carries to Rev and the new city. Same thing trees, angels, gold and the temple with believers having communication with YHWH.

The city is a cube this also is a most powerful symbol for the earth. Because all things of the phycial world is definded by being three dimentional, have length, height, Width.... Just as the city is mentioned. However the city is not a real city of buildings but it is made of all the righteous children of God whom to him are like beautiful gem stones. The city comes down out of heaven the moment of the resurrection of the firstfruits/bride because thier names have been recorded with him in the book of life.

Remember how the high priest had the breast plate with 12 gem stones and on those stones were the names of the 12 tribes? Wellllll once again if you look at this carefully you will see something else.
The breast plate was carried over his heart and the front plate which was square by the way had a second back plate on his back tied to the front plate. What did that make??? Simular to the city because the 12 stones, 12 names, gold and the shape of a cube if you look at it you see a cube enclosing the HEART of the high priest.....

Jesus said his body was the temple.

YHWH said he will write his law on our hearts, where were the stone tablets kept? In the ark in the most holy = our heart.
There was Gods light that was always there about the ark and the city is to have no night, and we are to let our light shine....

If you think New Jerusalem is heaven how can that be because the Garden of Eden had the tree of life also and Adam and Eve were there.

Digging




RE: Watchtower treachery - SoldierOfChrist - 12-22-2010 12:00 AM

Also why would they recieve life at the endpf the thousand years, and as the jws say what would we be doing during that time with no one here, i have thoughts on this