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The black horse and scales - digging - 04-22-2011 02:38 AM

Hello everyone,

I am very busy this time of year since I am a farmer, however I happened to have a slight change in how I'm understanding this vs in Rev with the 4 horses but mainly the third one. I now believe this vision is a symbol for the great inbalance of wealth happening today in the world. The scale is symboling the hugh, sick imbalance between the rich and the poor. While millions have all thier money go to pay for food, the rich of the world get to have everything they want without limit. "do not harm the oil and wine" in the past these were always the foods for the rich class. So we have the two events happening at the *same* time rather than one before the other. While millions are staving 1000s are feasting like kings of old.

With great imbalance also comes the power for a great storm.

Thus I now realize this horse has been riding for many years and the fourth we see him in the news every day.

Digging


RE: The black horse and scales - NewTruth - 04-22-2011 02:54 PM



I think you are right.. the protests in the US and in Muslim nations is about this...



RE: The black horse and scales - digging - 04-23-2011 03:53 AM

I have a moment so would like to add some more thoughts.

The four horses are an illustration of a repeating pattern with humankinds behavior.

A group of people begin to 'united' under some kind of leader (1), then they form a 'civilization'....which leads to the formation of an army(2) which allows the development of a two tiered class of wealth (3) and these three events lead right into the 4th horse because the system is so unbalanced and out of harmony with Gods will. Now it would seem these horsemen have 'ridden' in spots all over the earth at different times in history...however now in our day it would seem they started to ride the world. I feel starting at the beginning of the industrial age with the greatest armies and greatest gap between the rich and poor ever seen in history, which is now leading to all the other massive problems, in fact causing all the problems. It is harder for us to see because we live closer to the oil and wine consumers.

The 5th seal I believe was opened when the 'bible' was made available to mankind again, near the beginning of the industrial age. Thus I feel we are at the 6th seal, 6th trumpet, and 6th bowl.

Digging


RE: The black horse and scales - Totaldismay - 04-23-2011 12:54 PM

Thanks for the insights.

Yes the riders have been going strong, as the beasts of the earth come from the very same place that you talk about.

We people become a mob, a cancer when we unite and force others to our will.

We eat up and destroy all other cells in christs body.

edited to add,

we treat the symptoms of this world and never the cause of the problem.

we creat wealth to feed ourselves, we build so we can be comfortable and then things get out of control.
the objects we seek/ build and grow to sustain life become venerated above life.
Hence greed, love of money, social status.
they all gain more imoprtance then people lives.


RE: The black horse and scales - gogh - 04-23-2011 02:23 PM

You won't hear this on any mainstream news!!! (Nuclear Fallout)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMXvpWoHzeE&feature=player_embedded

:readthis:


RE: The black horse and scales - digging - 04-23-2011 02:51 PM

Yes she is great!

I listened to her on the radio she made me cry because it was the first time |I could clearly see how every single living thing including myself is so close to death because of this. I was reading something else about Japan it would seem they really should expand the danger zone around the reactors, but the gov't hasn't because the main train lines and large freeway would have to be cut of thus dividing Japan in two. Thier time as an industrial nation has ended but the elites will fight against that ending. I personally feel the grossly wealthy of the world are a very evil power driving mankind much farther than they would normally have gone. Like the demons that entered into the herd of swine and drove they off the cliff to death.

Digging


RE: The black horse and scales - COMankind - 04-24-2011 01:27 AM

For me, something interesting happened when I payed attention to who released the four horsemen. It was the four living creatures, and a specific living creature is assigned to releasing a specific horse.

This might be worth another thread. Now I have my theory on what this is showing...but curious if anyone else sees anything there.


RE: The black horse and scales - COMankind - 04-24-2011 01:42 AM

gogh Wrote:
You won't hear this on any mainstream news!!! (Nuclear Fallout)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMXvpWoHzeE&feature=player_embedded

:readthis:


Thanks Gogh. She is certainly compelling.

Heres an article that might be able to put her perspective in perspective.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/05/anti-nuclear-lobby-misled-world


RE: The black horse and scales - digging - 04-24-2011 03:15 AM

Please feel free to talk about it here CoMankind what do you see with the horsemen??

Digging


RE: The black horse and scales - COMankind - 04-24-2011 08:58 AM

digging Wrote:
Please feel free to talk about it here CoMankind what do you see with the horsemen??

Digging


Well - this isn't specifically about black scales, so I don't want to hijack the thread, but here you go:


The Four Living Creatures [Rev 4, Ez 1,9]:
These have very little description in Revelation, but Ezekiel sees them as well, referring to them as cherubim. They are mechanical in nature, on wheels, with eyes all around. They move like puppets, front to back, side to side. They don’t seem to have the persona of an angel; in fact, Revelation refers to them distinctly as “living creatures” giving the impression of something almost earthly.

These do not appear to be powerful angels. They appear instead to represent something more complex, something operational. These four creatures are likely, IMO, the spirit-controlled organizations of God.

They have four different heads:

Bear/Ox: The earthly ‘muscle’ of God. Persia and Rome are examples of nations the Ox controls.

Lion: The anointed nation of God. The Lion of Judah. This is Israel, possibly organized religion on the whole?

Man: Individuals that compose mankind. Daniel saw the Lion stand as a man, and the man was given a heart (Dan 7:4) which is where the law was written now, according to Heb 8:10.

Eagle: The angelic organization of God. They are often presented as birds and specifically eagles in scripture.


The Four Horsemen:

These are released after the opening of the first seal by the Lamb, identified as the resurrected Jesus. The riders are Conquest, War, Famine and Death. The four living creatures notably command them. Historically they have been identified as three demonic riders and Jesus, but I'm not so sure about that....

Conquest: Many feel that since he has a crown, that this must be Jesus. But it creates a strange paradox, even in a vision such as this, where the Lamb is releasing the personage of himself. It is the first living creature, the Lion or Israel, who called this rider. If it’s not Jesus, then the only other persons described as kings who conquer are the saints. Jesus indeed gave them that authority to conquer the world, thus he had the authority to give the rider the crown. This, IMO, would have been the apostles while on earth who came out of Israel - the Lion.

War: Commanded by the second living creature, the Ox, who represents God’s muscle on earth. This represents literal warring or battles between nations and peoples on earth. This does not need to be demonic - just as Cyrus was manipulated by God.

Famine: Commanded by the third living creature, the Man. This is a problem created by greed of man, and is controlled through their individual hearts.

Death: Called by the fourth living creature, the Eagle, the spirit organization. Either angels or more likely demons are given authority to kill through war, famine, plague and even wild beasts.


RE: The black horse and scales - digging - 04-25-2011 01:29 AM

I see, well not sure what to say back on that I will think on it.

However the part about the 1st rider having a crown, the heads of the beast also have crowns or diadems, so I see that leaving it open as a symbol for mankinds method of rule apart from God.

Recall in Rev 13:7 the beast makes war with the saints and overcomes them, and gains authority over all nations. That seems to be simular to the 1st horseman?

Remember I am of the belief Revelation is occuring now.

Digging


RE: The black horse and scales - COMankind - 04-25-2011 10:14 AM

digging Wrote:
I see, well not sure what to say back on that I will think on it.

However the part about the 1st rider having a crown, the heads of the beast also have crowns or diadems, so I see that leaving it open as a symbol for mankinds method of rule apart from God.

Recall in Rev 13:7 the beast makes war with the saints and overcomes them, and gains authority over all nations. That seems to be simular to the 1st horseman?

Remember I am of the belief Revelation is occuring now.

Digging



Digging - Yep, absolutely. Not trying to get into the past/future debate. But I guess the point is that there's probably a connection between the living creatures and the horsemen.

I'm not sure if a "white" horse would be used to depict something earthly or ungodly. But, it's certainly possible. There are crowns all over the Bible, that's for sure.


RE: The black horse and scales - digging - 04-25-2011 09:01 PM

As for the white horse the rider has a bow not a sword as Christ is often seen with. For myself the white is more to show how people view this rider, just like how they worship the beast and think the beast is so great 'who can war against the beast'.

At this time I see all the main three; seals, trumpets, bowls as the human caused events leading up to the return of Christ at the 7th seal/trumpet/bowl.

Digging


RE: The black horse and scales - Steadfast - 04-27-2011 11:56 AM

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I think I’m in the minority camp that believes none of the four horses have started to ride yet. They ride for the duration of the great tribulation. My reasoning is based on Revelation showing that all the seals open before any trumpets start to blow:

Rev 8:1-2 “And when He opened the seventh seal, a silence occurred in Heaven, about a half hour. And I saw the seven angels who stood before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.”

Rev 8:6 And the seven angels having the seven trumpets prepared themselves, that they might trumpet.

With this in mind, here are my thoughts concerning the black horse of Revelation that is seen riding at the 3rd seal:

Black Horse



Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a balance (zugos) in his hand.

Revelation 6:5 – G2218 – Greek zugos: servitude, coupling

Webster's Dictionary: servitude - a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2218

1. a yoke – a yoke that is put on draught cattle; metaphor used of any burden or bondage as that of slavery
2. of troublesome laws imposed on one, esp. of the Mosaic law, hence the name is so transferred to the commands of Christ as to contrast them with the commands of the Pharisees which were a veritable 'yoke'; yet even Christ's commands must be submitted to, though easier to be kept

1. a balance, pair of scales

Here are the other verses in the New Testament that also use this word zugos:

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke (zugos) upon you, and learn of me….

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke (zugos) is easy, and my burden is light.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt God, to put a yoke (zugos) upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke (zugos) of bondage.

1Timothy 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke (zugos) count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

Like most Christians, I always assumed that the balances only meant expensive or scarce food during the trib, but this research seems to confirm what I suspect is the real purpose of the horses: War, bondage, and death to those who don't accept the False Messiah or his world religion.

The second beast of Revelation 13 commands that a mark be put on men (Rev 13:15-16). If they don't accept the mark, they cannot buy or sell. This mark becomes a type of bondage or yoke and could be compared to the balance that the rider on the black horse carries. It becomes a way to measure and impose a condition on men that will not only affect the ability to buy and sell the things necessary for life, but it becomes the means by which men determine the God they will serve:

Rev 16:2 “And the first went away and poured out his cup onto the earth. And it came to be a malignant and painful sore on the men, the ones having the mark of the beast, and the ones worshipping its image.”

Rev 19:20-21 “And the beast was seized, and with this one the false prophet doing the signs before it, by which he led astray those having received the mark of the beast, and those worshipping its image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword of the One sitting on the horse, the sword having gone forth from His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.

Rev 20:4 “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who have not worshipped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on the forehead and on their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”


RE: The black horse and scales - Interpretum - 04-27-2011 02:24 PM

Hi digging

digging Wrote:
However the part about the 1st rider having a crown, the heads of the beast also have crowns or diadems, so I see that leaving it open as a symbol for mankinds method of rule apart from God.


Faithful ones in Christ wear a crown, and also conquer.

"I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. He who conquers..." (Rev 3:11,12)

"And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and its rider had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer." (6:2)

Also, the 24 elders wear crowns:

"Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads." (4:4)

I'll admit the first horseman seems somewhat ambiguous. However, it COULD also represent all the holy ones in Christ.

In that case, the horsemen collectively represent... the FAITHFUL, WAR, FAMINE, DEATH... followed by MARTYRS.

I'd suggest this parallels what Jesus talked about in Matthew 24... war, famine, death, endurance, some being killed for Christ... all before the fleeing from Judea.


RE: The black horse and scales - COMankind - 04-27-2011 05:04 PM

100% with you on that one.


Interpretum Wrote:
Hi digging

digging Wrote:
However the part about the 1st rider having a crown, the heads of the beast also have crowns or diadems, so I see that leaving it open as a symbol for mankinds method of rule apart from God.


Faithful ones in Christ wear a crown, and also conquer.

"I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. He who conquers..." (Rev 3:11,12)

"And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and its rider had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer." (6:2)

Also, the 24 elders wear crowns:

"Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads." (4:4)

I'll admit the first horseman seems somewhat ambiguous. However, it COULD also represent all the holy ones in Christ.

In that case, the horsemen collectively represent... the FAITHFUL, WAR, FAMINE, DEATH... followed by MARTYRS.

I'd suggest this parallels what Jesus talked about in Matthew 24... war, famine, death, endurance, some being killed for Christ... all before the fleeing from Judea.




RE: The black horse and scales - digging - 04-28-2011 03:34 PM

I know I use to think he was a symbol for Jesus too, however now I feel not so. First off in Revelation it seems to clearly describe the Christ when he is mentioned as the lamb or the word of God or simply as himself.

So with the white horse consider for a moment that he might be a symbol for the man of lawlessness whom sets himself up to be followed and revered by men as a great leader.(2Thess2)

I feel now that the man of lawlessness and this white horseman is describing the same thing which is also the beast in Rev chapter 13.

However I don't believe this is a symbol for a single person but a collective effort of our modern system of 'democratic' gov't. Gov't by the people the last style of rulership mentioned in Daniel with the statue and the feet (10 toes) in place at the time Christ returns and the stone crushes it all.

Just like the bride of Christ is not a single woman but a symbol for a large group of people all in agreement.

The beast is given authority (crown?) and makes war with the saints overcoming/conquering them. Does not the crowned white horseman conquer also?

Well that should be enough for now!

Digging


RE: The black horse and scales - MAKARIOS - 08-10-2011 12:19 PM

Ishamel's nation became great and lived in wilderness, he became an archer. Ishameal had twelve sons, and a daughter, just like Jacob had twelve sons and one daughter.

Essau was also an archer.

Look here too,
Exodus 15:1....."“Let me sing to Jehovah, for he has become highly exalted. The horse and its rider he has pitched into the sea...."

Exodus 15: 4...." Phar′aoh’s chariots and his military forces he has cast into the sea, And the choice of his warriors have been sunk in the Red Sea."

Exodus 15:21......"Sing to Jehovah, for he has become highly exaulted. The horse and it's rider he has pitched into the sea"

Rev 7:8 ...."something like a great mountain burning with fire was hurled into the sea"....

Matt 4:8 Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory,


Matthew 18:6 6 But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who put faith in me, it is more beneficial for him to have hung around his neck a millstone such as is turned by an ass and to be sunk in the wide, open sea.


Luke 17: 2 It would be of more advantage to him if a millstone were suspended from his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to stumble one of these little ones.

I do find it odd that the first rider be Jesus, and the other three is mean. I have wondered how could the lamb, Jesus be opening up the first seal, and the rider is himself?

Yes the rider, a crown was given him. True, but just who gave him the crown?.... it does'nt even say it's golden.

a crown could simply mean a time to rule.

Just a thought....

Makarios


RE: The black horse and scales - digging - 08-10-2011 02:35 PM

Good points,

Thank-you for that I will be thinking about what you have shared.

I am more and more of the conviction this white house is more of a symbol of mankinds collective 'conquering' of the world through the spread of 'empire' or 'civilization'.

Digging


RE: The black horse and scales - MAKARIOS - 08-10-2011 06:06 PM

Hi Digging,

What about....

Rev 6:8

"And authority was given them over the forth part of the earth, (the first rider)

to kill with a long sword ( the second rider)

and with food shortages (the third rider)

and with deadly plague & by the wildbeast of the earth (the fourth rider--death & hades)


Just a thought...


Makarios


RE: The black horse and scales - MAKARIOS - 08-10-2011 08:34 PM

Now....I just came across diaglott digging.... this is very interesting....

Because here it says...regarding the fourth rider...

"and when he opened the seal the fourth, i heard the fourth living one saying: Come thou and see thou. And (I saw, and) lo a horse pale, and the one sitting on him, a name to him the death; and the unseen followed (with) him; and was given to him authority over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a sword and with famine and with death, and by the wildbeast of the earth."

In Greek is it says "Him" when in New world translation it says "Them". This makes a difference.

now what i noticed in here is..... the rider's given name is Death, but HADES---the "unseen" was following with him. It was HADES that authority was given over to rule the fourth part of the earth....

Why was it to the unseen--hades given authority to rule? why? could it be to repeat the previous riders--to look like them on spiritual terms?

Is the wildbeast of the earth....the "unseen"-- Hades..... that's following Death--the Wildbeast that comes from the sea...or is it the dragon?


(Re 13:11-13) And I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking as a dragon. 12 And it exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and those who dwell in it worship the first wild beast, whose death-stroke got healed. 13 And it performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.

It excercises the authority of the first wild beast....

Rev 13:1-3

(Re 13:1-3) And it stood still upon the sand of the sea. And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and upon its horns ten diadems, but upon its heads blasphemous names. 2 Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were as those of a bear, and its mouth was as a lion’s mouth. And the dragon gave to [the beast] its power and its throne and great authority. 3 And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.

Just a thought....

Makarios


RE: The black horse and scales - digging - 08-10-2011 08:38 PM

Wow! Very good observation. Yes I agree and more and more am believing many of these visions are of a single larger happening. Some of them of the same event just explained in a different vision.

Digging


RE: The black horse and scales - MAKARIOS - 08-15-2011 07:34 PM

As I mentioned before it looks like, It was DEATH that gave HADES--the "UNSEEN", authority.

Diaglott Revelation 6:8 explains, but look closely...." And [I saw and] lo a horse pale, and the one sitting on him, a name to him the death; and the unseen followed [with][/i] him;

and was *given to him authority* over the fourth part of the earth, (first rider)
to kill with a sword, (second rider)
and with famine, (third rider)
and with death,(fourth rider, Death)
and by the wild beasts of the earth. (hades--unseen, invisible)


( ) --Mine.

It seems, Death is the wildbeast number one that gave HADES--the unseen, an authority.

Hades, ............."by the wildbeasts of the earth" Revelation 6:8.

There was a wildbeast that ascended from the earth. Rev 13:11.

who are they? Death and Hades? Hades-- UNSEEN/INVISIBLE (Diaglott words for HADES)

Who is Death...and...Who is Hades--the unseen, and invisible that is closely following Death?

Look here....REV 20:14".... And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire."

Look again a few verses up--it's in Rev 20:10.... "And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wildbeast and the false prophet (already were);...."

Just a thought...

Makarios


RE: The black horse and scales - digging - 08-17-2011 02:58 AM

It took me a bit but I found a vs that has reminded me of what you have said.

Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,.

Interesting it says the devil had the power of death???

The wild beasts of the earth I don't believe is meaning the lions, bears etc, but rather the wild beasts described in the book of revelation it's self.

Digging


RE: The black horse and scales - MAKARIOS - 08-17-2011 12:36 PM

Hi Digging!
It's very interesting you came across this verse...

Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,.

Satan has the power of death. He can give it to whomever he wishes.

Remember also Jesus says he has the KEYS to death and to hades.

Keys, has many meanings. According to the New World Dictionary, second edition, two of the many explantations given are:

"something regarded as like a key in OPENING or closing a way, REVEALING OR CONCEALING......."

"a thing that EXPLAINS or SOLVES something else as a book of answers, the explanations on a map...."

notice it says, not one key, but, KEYS. there is more than one key.

There is more to Death and Hades than we are taught in the organization.

He has the KEYS to what? death and Hades. Jesus is the one who is OPENING the seals, which the first four is about the 4 riders....

That has to do with REVELATION 6:8, this very well may explain the four riders.

As you say the Devil has power of death. This brings to mind

Rev 13:2, about the first wildbeast that comes out of sea, "...the dragon gave to [the beast] its power and its throne and great authority"

According to Heb 2:14, The devil has the power of death.

The fourth rider, diaglott, "a name to him the death"

IF the scrolls really contained the word, "him" just after hades, In Rev 6:8, then this could means the authority was given to the wildbeast from the earth (hades) the false prophet. Rev 13:11

IF the scrolls really contained the word, "them" just after hades, then this could mean the authority was given to the wildbeast from the sea. Rev 13:1

All together the four riders show what their goals are so that they MIGHT conquer.

Just a thought...
Makarios

In addition to this, under the Biblical topics box, there's a forum called, 'reasoning from the scriptures". A thread has previously been started by fugitive1, called, "The rider of the white horse--who is he?" I just made a post in there explaining how i see it possiblity linking it with the famous prophecy in Genesis 3:15 and with the tribe of Dan.