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Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 06-30-2011 06:20 PM

I'm putting this thread in the controversy room because it is a rather difficult topic to nail down. This isn't an attempt to do so. Rather my intention is to reopen a discussion to seek an expansion, seeing that we're getting close to that time when we'll be called upon to "get out of her" or else.....

I don’t know how many times I’ve thought and rethought about Babylon the Great -- what it is and how we might define it. It’s really been a case of, as the French say, “Cherchez la femme” (look for the woman).

Babylon the Great has been well labeled “a mystery” and “the mother of the harlots”. The fact that she’s called a mystery suggests that it may be difficult to understand who and what “she” is until God’s time to completely reveal this information to his people. This is also borne out by the fact that God’s people will be found in her and will have to be told to “get out of her” before he brings about her downfall.

Here’s where I am right now....lookin’ through a glass darkly.

I go to Genesis 3:14-15 for the first mention of two great rivals. It reads:

“And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent:
“Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.””


Who is this woman who will be at enmity with the serpent? Not Eve. Not Mary. No, it is the same woman who is mentioned at Revelation 12:1. It is something spiritual, something heavenly. I believe it’s necessary to identify this woman before one can figure out the identity of her rival, Babylon the Great.

Paul touches on this identity in Galatians 4:26,

"But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.”

As Paul said earlier in that chapter the woman is a covenant, a
covenant that had its start with the promise of Genesis 3:15 and encompassing the promises to Abraham and Sarah and which laid the basis for the New Covenant.

This heavenly woman of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 is the "mother covenant" which brings forth a seed, a seed which is Christ and all those who are “in” Christ.

“YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.” -- Galatians 3:26-29

By drawing a parallel based on the words of Genesis 3:15 I’ve concluded that Satan has put into motion an “anti-covenant” and that anti-covenant has also produced a seed. That is why Revelation speaks of Babylon the Great as being the mother of the harlots and the disgusting things of the earth.

So far I’ve concluded that Babylon the Great is not any single organization but rather the whole machinery that manipulates the opposition to the new covenant. Whatever “it” is, it controls the world’s religions, finances, commerce and politics. Many of God’s people are presently caught in this machine.

The order of the day seems to me to be to identify how we may be entangled in this blood-thirsty and blood-guilty entity that is completely at odds with Yahweh, his Christ and his people. The next task would be to pray for deliverance as in the Lord’s model prayer.

“Deliver (or rescue) us from the wicked one.”

The forgoing is a start. Discussion is welcomed.

love to all,:grouphug:
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Beau Wetini - 06-30-2011 09:39 PM

Yep.....thats what I think, imo....


Take a look around. Everything the Kingdom is not, is exactly what Babylon is.



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-01-2011 12:34 AM

I tend to agree. Obviously the bride of Christ is pointed out as being a virgin. This is contrasted with the other woman in Revelation which is a harlot. The counterfeit prostitute has to be removed before the marriage of the Lamb takes place.The bride and the Lamb make up the kindom, so the prostitute must be the anti-kingdom, a counterfeit of the real thing in every way.
The kingdom includes kings and priests, rulers and spiritual, so I think as a counterpart Babylon the Great inludes more than just religion.

The great city that Nebuchadnezzar built was more than just a religious centre it was the centre of an empire. The words 'Babylon the Great' were first uttered by him and he was instantly struck down.

Going back further Babel was intended to be a centre of control, rivalling Jehovah. As coccus ilicis pointed out the original meaning of the name was 'gateway of god', but after the languages were confused it came to mean confusion.
Love vicks


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-01-2011 12:51 AM

I think Babylon the Great is a harlot because it is THE Kingdom.

Jesus Christs kingdom undermined by Satan.

Just as Jerusalem was called a harlot in Ezekiel Chapter 23.

I believe the metaphor in Revelation is consistent with the metaphor in Ezekiel.



In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-01-2011 02:09 AM

ablebodiedman Wrote:
I think Babylon the Great is a harlot because it is THE Kingdom.
Jesus Christs kingdom undermined by Satan.
Just as Jerusalem was called a harlot in Ezekiel Chapter 23.
I believe the metaphor in Revelation is consistent with the metaphor in Ezekiel.

In Christ
abe


Jesus said, 'my kingdom is no part of this world'.
Satan cannot touch it.
It was whisked away from the dragon, to the safety of the Father.



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-01-2011 08:03 AM

Babylon the great is not a physical place on earth although it may be more prevalent in some places than others. When Jesus asked us to pray that God will be done on earth, that qualifies the idea that Jesus` kingdom is no part of the world. In other words the Roman empire was somewhat opposed to Jesus` kingship but more importantly and primary was that directed to Gods people, the Jews. Of course the wheat and weeds grow together until the harvest and that harvest was the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century. Applied today, anywhere that doesn't have the fruits of the spirit, and a fruit is another form of seed is not the domain of the king, or in other words the kingdom of heaven. So logically Babylon the great being the kingdoms antithesis is not a an antithesis in location, but in fruits, attitudes and values on the heart.

Why pray for Gods will to be done on earth and for the kingdom to come if the statement that `Gods kingdom is no part of the world` is to be understood as literally as the Lords prayer? Of course either its future on it is now. If future we can stick to the idea if we like that Gods kingdom and Babylon the great are very literal, bordering on physical, locatable places as opposed to works of the flesh, which itself gets contrasted with fruits of the spirit. Its a rather passive view though, which inspires no action at all but a rather permissive view that we can do nothing to avert a future Armageddon or the corruption of Gods own people via ever increasing weed like Christians who are in of course, organised religion. Not like us who have got out of Babylon in our white robes and wait for the inevitable destruction. Doesn't seem that consistent which the example of Jesus. Jerusalem above is our mother because the kingdom of heaven through Jesus inspired the possibility to achieve the fruits of the spirit. A mother giving birth to her children! No literal children or fruit of a womb, but the more metaphorical fruits of the spirit in the heart. The view that anywhere Gods will in done inside and out is in fact the kingdom of heaven is much more in harmony with the example of Jesus, and means that his statement that his kingdom is no part of this world was a statement of fact at the time, not advice to stay out of politics or whatever it is in the world because the idea is for the kingdom to come without dramatic display because it starts in the heart.

Babylon the great then must be then `spiritual Jews`, to place it in the modern context, who are not really spiritual Jews but fake ones who do not produce the fruits of the spirit. By extension the beast they ride on are the same type of persons who are not spiritual Jews, but whoever in the world. That way of understanding enables us to see that those on the world who are not spiritual Jews, or in other words Christians, who are producing the fruits of the spirit don't have to be included with the beast or that on top of it, Babylon the great.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom belonged to this world, my servants would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But for now my kingdom is not from here."
Joh 18:37 Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. I was born for this, and I came into the world for this: to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice."

Of course it has to be noted that there was one who fought that Jesus not be delivered up.

Mat 26:50 Jesus said to him, "Friend, why are you here?" Then some men came forward, took hold of Jesus, and arrested him.
Mat 26:51 Suddenly, one of the men with Jesus pulled out his sword and cut off the ear of the chief priest's servant.

In other words in that person the kingdom was there inside. He was one of its subjects trying to protect his king. Of course using a sword is not a fruit of the spirit hence Jesus` rebuke, but he at least understood who his king was. The harlot of Babylon, in this case being the chief priest with his servant who`s ear was cut off, along with Judas, also the other leaders of the people with a mob at hand who are the beast he and Judas was sitting on. Later the beast were the Roman authorities used by this Harlot to kill Jesus and later persecute Christians in General. Why a Harlot? Because they were Gods people.

Why a beast? because it was a powerful thing being used for the evil and adulterous ends of Gods people who were weeds, or the serpents seed, with their works of the flesh with no fruits for or of the kingdom.

Now days if we understand these things in the way I describe above, we don't have to worry about what mountain range we should flee to, or what bit of the literal world we have to get out of, or worry about when the call to get out of it all comes, and worry about hearing that call at the right time, ect ect. We can understand that the kingdom and Babylon as understood in the first century can be applied now in our time in terms of copying Jesus or Judas. Not their actions but their hearts. Those inner works of the flesh or fruits of the spirit, for they are the kingdom of God or Babylon the great. Its not about external location at all in modern times but the inner location of the heart. We flee from hate, not to the mountains! In so doing we get closer to the real invisible God who used to appear on literal mountains because that is where people thought God lived back then. This is why God is invisible because the kingdom in inside, and comes not in a way seen by men. The end is not round the corner unless we bring it in by the weapons of the spirit by doing what Jesus did. We die for and to the world, not the other way around. If we think that Jesus is going to come again riding on a magnificent white horse into new Jerusalem, we might want to remember that it wasn't a warier steed the last time, although it was when he came again to destroy literal Jerusalem via that same beast in the first century as it were, so that the harlot was suddenly turned on and savaged just like Revelation depicts. No it was a small donkey. Very humble, not showy and definitely not obvious.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Beau Wetini - 07-01-2011 08:25 AM

Yes.....totally agree Brian....


It's the Babylonian Spirit.....

"My Kingdom is no part of this kosmos....".


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - isomam - 07-01-2011 09:02 AM

Beau Wetini Wrote:
Everything the Kingdom is not, is exactly what Babylon is.


dem words oughtta be bronzed and put into the 'kingdom hall of fame.'

[the only use of the term 'kingdom hall' i will ever endorse.]

i agree with the other comments above, too.

[well, except for our friend abe's, of course. -- nothin' personal, abe.]


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - gogh - 07-01-2011 10:35 AM

Revelation 17:18..."And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

:coffeeread:


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-01-2011 10:50 AM

man hu Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:
I think Babylon the Great is a harlot because it is THE Kingdom.
Jesus Christs kingdom undermined by Satan.
Just as Jerusalem was called a harlot in Ezekiel Chapter 23.
I believe the metaphor in Revelation is consistent with the metaphor in Ezekiel.

In Christ
abe


Jesus said, 'my kingdom is no part of this world'.
Satan cannot touch it.
It was whisked away from the dragon, to the safety of the Father.


man hu,

Jesus Christ also said this:

Matthew 13:24-26
Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. 26 When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also.

He makes it very clear that Satan is going to undermine the Kingdom.


I think the destruction of Babylon the Great is what Jesus Christ was talking about when he said this:

Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be


Very similar to the demise of Babylon the Great:

Revelation 18:9-10
9 “And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, 10 while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’


Both THE Kingdom AND Babylon the Great are burned with fire and the end result is weeping and gnashing (or beating) themselves in grief.



In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-01-2011 12:01 PM

gogh Wrote:
Revelation 17:18..."And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

:coffeeread:



gogh,

In order to appreciate that scripture you have to understand that "the kings of the earth" are the saints.


Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-01-2011 03:26 PM

ablebodiedman Wrote:

gogh Wrote:
Revelation 17:18..."And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

:coffeeread:

gogh,
In order to appreciate that scripture you have to understand that "the kings of the earth" are the saints.
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”
In Christ
abe

"In order to appreciate that scripture you have to understand that "the kings of the earth" are the saints".

What?

Abe you consistantly confuse and try to meld different and diverse scriptures and leave me scratching my head.
Just as some people take every parable concerning sheep and try to meld them together, you do the same.
I don't know where you get this stuff, try reasoning with us instead.
Try reading context.



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-01-2011 04:03 PM

man hu Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:

gogh Wrote:
Revelation 17:18..."And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

:coffeeread:

gogh,
In order to appreciate that scripture you have to understand that "the kings of the earth" are the saints.
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”
In Christ
abe

"In order to appreciate that scripture you have to understand that "the kings of the earth" are the saints".

What?

Abe you consistantly confuse and try to meld different and diverse scriptures and leave me scratching my head.
Just as some people take every parable concerning sheep and try to meld them together, you do the same.
I don't know where you get this stuff, try reasoning with us instead.
Try reading context.


man hu,

Ok, I'll try.

Where do I get this stuff.

It is right out of the Book of Revelation.

The context of the entire Book of Revelation is explained in the first few verses.

The "kings of the earth" are first introduced in verse 5 of Chapter 1:

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”


Revelation 1:5-6
To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

John addresses the audience for the book as "us".

"Us" are the ones who are made "to be" a kingdom.

aka kings --------- aka saints

Now the context is established!


That these saints are "kings of the earth" is reinforced in Revelation Chapter 5.

Revelation 5:8-10
And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”


Popular opinion has it that when the "kings of the earth" are mentioned anywhere else in the Book of Revelation they presume the context for "Kings of the Earth" established right at the start has somehow changed to no longer mean the saints.

They now think "kings of the earth" means pagan kings!

The context changes in peoples imagination.

Weird how that happens!

It makes me scratch my head.


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-01-2011 04:18 PM

Starting from when did the kings of the earth become the saints?


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - AlienResident - 07-01-2011 04:52 PM

Hi Rez and all,

I continue to be amazed by the fact that you continue to ignore one essential aspect of the manner in which Revelation has been presented to John.

Now for the sake of simplification, I present you an example.

Imagine yourself sitting in a cinema watching a documentary about an european medival saga. Let's say you were wondering who the actors might be in reality, because they have disguised themselves in costumes for the role they were playing.

Imagine someone who has actually been present during the production of the documentary sitting beside you and explaining you the identity of certain actors. At one point, you asked him who the black man playing the role of a medieval slave might be. Let's say he told you as follows: "The one playing the old slave is Morgan Freeman."

Now would you simply ignore what the person tells you and contiue to wonder who the black actor is in reality?

But that is exactly what we are doing, when we over-mystify Babylon the Great. We willfully ignore the angel who was commissioned to explain the identity of the "actors" at revelation 17-18. And that is key to understand who is who in the story.

In revelation, John was watching a documentary. The only difference is that he was watching a documentary of not the past, but what is to take place soon.

Now, if you were John watching the "documentary" with an angel sitting beside you explaining the true identity of the "actors" involved, would you doubt his explanations? Would you simply ignore them? Would you look for other "entities" that could potentially come in to question?

I do think John was taking the angel at face value.

Now, one of the "actors" in the documentary John was seeing was the woman called Babylon the Great. Seeing John wondering about the true identity of her (similar to you wondering about the identity of the old black man in the documentary), the angel explains him who she actually is. Namely: "And the woman whom you saw means the great city." (The same as the man besides you in the cinema telling you the identity of the old slave as Morgan Freeman.)

Again, if you were John, would you think even for one second that the woman can possibly be a Political, religious or fanancial system that is going to surface in a distant future in 2000 years? I don't think so. Rather, you would know that she is the great city that is dominating the world you are living in back then.

Think of the rest for yourself.

In love,

AR


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-01-2011 05:02 PM

man hu Wrote:
Starting from when did the kings of the earth become the saints?


man hu,

Established in the first few verses of the Book of Revelation and most definitely reinforced in Revelation Chapter 5.

Established by the context of pretty much everything else in the New Testament:

Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:28-30
28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.


1 Corinthians 6:1-3
2 Or do YOU not know that the holy ones (aka saints) will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by YOU, are YOU unfit to try very trivial matters? 3 Do YOU not know that we shall judge angels?


1 Corinthians 4:8
YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings


The Apostles and other anointed saints in the 1st Century seemed very aware that they would be kings over the earth.

The Apostle John certainly established that he and "us" (his audience) were to be kings of the earth at the very start of the Book of Revelation.


Revelation 1:1
A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves

Since when did you not understand that the saints would be kings ruling the earth?


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Beau Wetini - 07-01-2011 05:13 PM

Hi bro Teshome - hows it going?


One thing is, from my standpoint, Babylon isn't a future thing - its an ever present reality that has existed since the first human pair chose to eat from the tree of knowledge.

It is the summation of the collective "will" that exists in enmity with Gods Will and is manifest through hierarchies of reality e.g darkness, the flesh, the beast, the harlot etc. At any given time the collective "will" has focal points - some more prominent than others - these are "the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth" - with the kings of the earth being those who live in accord with the flesh.


Not a perfect view, but I like it! ;)


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-01-2011 05:26 PM

It does have the virtue of being relevant to all Christians for the last two thousand years, as opposed to one specific generation with the rest not getting a thing out it in any practical way for day to day living in emulating Christ.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-01-2011 05:57 PM

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Since when did you not understand that the saints would be kings ruling the earth?

Ah so you accept this is future.
How far future? I assume you don't think the current kings of the earth are saints. So when does this swap over suddenly take place?


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-01-2011 06:08 PM

man hu Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Since when did you not understand that the saints would be kings ruling the earth?

Ah so you accept this is future.
How far future? I assume you don't think the current kings of the earth are saints. So when does this swap over suddenly take place?


man hu,

I think the current saints are kings of the earth.

When and if they start ruling depends on whether they received the mark of the beast or not and when the events described near the end of the Book of Revelation take place.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.


Their success depends a great deal on understanding that when it says "kings of the earth" in the Book of Revelation, it means them!


The saints!


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Jan Kosonen - 07-02-2011 08:20 AM

Resolute Wrote:
we're getting close to that time when we'll be called upon to "get out of her" or else.....

I don’t know how many times I’ve thought and rethought about Babylon the Great -- what it is and how we might define it. The fact that she’s called a mystery suggests that it may be difficult to understand who and what “she” is until God’s time to completely reveal this information to his people. This is also borne out by the fact that God’s people will be found in her and will have to be told to “get out of her” before he brings about her downfall.

That is why Revelation speaks of Babylon the Great as being the mother of the harlots and the disgusting things of the earth.

So far I’ve concluded that Babylon the Great is not any single organization but rather the whole machinery that manipulates the opposition to the new covenant. Whatever “it” is, it controls the world’s religions, finances, commerce and politics. Many of God’s people are presently caught in this machine.

blood-thirsty and blood-guilty entity that is completely at odds with Yahweh, his Christ and his people. The next task would be to pray for deliverance as in the Lord’s model prayer.

“Deliver (or rescue) us from the wicked one.”

The forgoing is a start. Discussion is welcomed.

love to all,:grouphug:
rez

Hi Resolute, I appreciated your post, me to, I have been seeking to find out what Babylon the Great is. The thoughts above I appreciated especially much and agree with them.

So then it is to find the answer to the description of Babylon the Great, for example in Revelation 17:18 it says: And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

Nowdays many chanels of alternative media are obsessed to expose who realy runs the world from behind the scens. First of all they point to megacorporations who buy off elected representatives of the people in the congress and senate. And they dictate to governments and presidents and prime ministers what to do. So I suggest you to find out more information and facts about this and you'll be able to find out where the great city Babylon the Great is located and who are those people composing it.
An evangelical pastor Lindsey Williams has been in contact with these people. He went as a missionary to the workers for oilcompanies in Alaska about 40 years ago and the oilcompanie's bosses where happy to have him there 3 years and he helped them to solve difficulties between the personel etc. He was so appreciated that the big bosses of the oilcompanies even let him sometimes sit and listen to when they had meetings with bankers and government officials. And he became a good friend with some of these CEOs and still have regular contact with them. And Lindsey says that these CEOs dictate governments what to do. So if this can be true, there you have Babylon the Great. Lindsey especially mentions Wall Street where the decisions are made. So if this is true, then there you have the great city, it is New York. And in that case really God's peolpe should leave New York because it is Babylon the Great. There are the headquarters of Jehovah's witnesses and a high percentage of jews living there. I just wonder how many of them will leave before it is to late. I've written to the society and warned them. But they continue to insist that Babylon the Great is the world power of all false religions, as they do in this years district assemblies.
But I am not yet completely sure if Babylon the Great is only New York or if it includes USA.
Good souces of information are on youtube, you can type Lindsey Williams, or just Babylon the Great and you will get information. But on Babylon the Great there are different explanations, but quite many connect it with USA.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ThinkingMan - 07-02-2011 08:56 AM

gogh Wrote:
Revelation 17:18..."And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

:coffeeread:


Hi gogh.

Revelation 17:18 seems to be a very good clue (the relationship between Babylon the Great and the kings of the earth).

You can start with a Start Page web search for the following words.

"Barack Obama" "Bilderberg"
"Libya" "Muammar Gaddafi"
"Greece" "bailout money"
"Iceland" "IMF"
"New World Order"
"Eugenics" "Bisphenol A" or "BPA" "soft kill weapons"

And for some of the alternative media broadcasts have a look at Alex Jones

Is the Bilderberg Group Babylon the Great? Do your own research.
See if there are enough commonalities between Babylon the Great and the Bilderberg Group.

Have a look at this too Abe.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-02-2011 09:40 AM

ThinkingMan Wrote:
Hi gogh.

Revelation 17:18 seems to be a very good clue (the relationship between Babylon the Great and the kings of the earth).

You can start with a Start Page web search for the following words.

"Barack Obama" "Bilderberg"
"Libya" "Muammar Gaddafi"
"Greece" "bailout money"
"Iceland" "IMF"
"New World Order"
"Eugenics" "Bisphenol A" or "BPA" "soft kill weapons"

And for some of the alternative media broadcasts have a look at Alex Jones

Is the Bilderberg Group Babylon the Great? Do your own research.
See if there are enough commonalities between Babylon the Great and the Bilderberg Group.

Have a look at this too Abe.

you can add to that the removal of the top Polish officials, the opposition and bankers by murder, thus changing the whole government.
Onr of the problems was they didn't want to devalue the Zloty, as they were told to by they Euro Bankers.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-02-2011 02:25 PM

Jan Kosonen Wrote:
Hi Resolute, I appreciated your post, me to, I have been seeking to find out what Babylon the Great is. The thoughts above I appreciated especially much and agree with them.

So then it is to find the answer to the description of Babylon the Great, for example in Revelation 17:18 it says: And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

Nowdays many chanels of alternative media are obsessed to expose who realy runs the world from behind the scens. First of all they point to megacorporations who buy off elected representatives of the people in the congress and senate. And they dictate to governments and presidents and prime ministers what to do. So I suggest you to find out more information and facts about this and you'll be able to find out where the great city Babylon the Great is located and who are those people composing it.
An evangelical pastor Lindsey Williams has been in contact with these people. He went as a missionary to the workers for oilcompanies in Alaska about 40 years ago and the oilcompanie's bosses where happy to have him there 3 years and he helped them to solve difficulties between the personel etc. He was so appreciated that the big bosses of the oilcompanies even let him sometimes sit and listen to when they had meetings with bankers and government officials. And he became a good friend with some of these CEOs and still have regular contact with them. And Lindsey says that these CEOs dictate governments what to do. So if this can be true, there you have Babylon the Great. Lindsey especially mentions Wall Street where the decisions are made. So if this is true, then there you have the great city, it is New York. And in that case really God's peolpe should leave New York because it is Babylon the Great. There are the headquarters of Jehovah's witnesses and a high percentage of jews living there. I just wonder how many of them will leave before it is to late. I've written to the society and warned them. But they continue to insist that Babylon the Great is the world power of all false religions, as they do in this years district assemblies.
But I am not yet completely sure if Babylon the Great is only New York or if it includes USA.
Good souces of information are on youtube, you can type Lindsey Williams, or just Babylon the Great and you will get information. But on Babylon the Great there are different explanations, but quite many connect it with USA.

Hey Jan, how are you doing?

Yes, I've listened to pastor Lindsey Williams being interviewed by Alex Jones on a number of occasions. Mainstream media will never get anywhere close to what is really happening to this world. It's just a joke. For instance, nothing on the CBC last night reported on the million people in Tripoli (Libya) who were demonstrating in favor of Gadhafi. If anyone cares to see what is actually taking place in Libya as of yesterday, have a look at the live-feed broadcast.

Journalist and author Webster Tarpley, who is currently on a fact-finding mission to Libya, is the voice narrating the scene. It's part 3/9 of Alex Jones' Friday broadcast....so it's kind of in the middle.



As for the mystery that is Babylon the Great, our Lord Jesus said in Matthew 10:24-31

"“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his lord. It is enough for the disciple to become as his teacher, and the slave as his lord. If people have called the householder Be·el′ze·bub, how much more [will they call] those of his household so? Therefore do not fear them; for there is nothing covered over that will not become uncovered, and secret that will not become known. What I tell YOU in the darkness, say in the light; and what YOU hear whispered, preach from the housetops. And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na. Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without YOUR Father’s [knowledge]. But the very hairs of YOUR head are all numbered. Therefore have no fear: YOU are worth more than many sparrows.""

Just a little note on the word "city" so that we aren't in danger of naming an actual physical city such as London, New York of the Vatican, have a look at the Strongs definition:

Quote:
_____Strongs_____

G4172 polis pol'-is

probably from the same as G4171, or perhaps from G4183;

a town (properly, with walls, of greater or less size):--city.



I could quite easily see this as: an organized entity with definable boundaries (walls).

A tale of two cities --

New Jerusalem = a city from God
Babylon the Great = a city from Satan

The rulers of Babylon the Great operate like the mafia. There are many protective layers between the "grunts" and the "generals" so that the real movers and shakers are hidden from view....thus....a mystery!

I can almost guarantee that we won't hear anything of value from mainstream media.

GO! alternative news! Hurrah for the internet -- while we still have it.

More later,

rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Jan Kosonen - 07-02-2011 02:33 PM

Hi, I just been looking a 1,5 hour youtube video, a interview of Aaron Russo, a succesful business man and filmmaker. He tells how Nick Rockefeller tried to recruit him to futher the elites agenda of world enslavement. And Alex Jones asked him who owns the Federal Reserve in Washington, and Aaron tells that it is owned by the private bank called Federal Reserve Bank of New York. So there you have it again, all the evil comes from New York, the great city Babylon the Great.
Aaron Russo's websit is http://www.freedomtofascism.com


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - NewTruth - 07-02-2011 02:53 PM

Quote:
Nowdays many chanels of alternative media are obsessed to expose who realy runs the world from behind the scens. First of all they point to megacorporations who buy off elected representatives of the people in the congress and senate. And they dictate to governments and presidents and prime ministers what to do. So I suggest you to find out more information and facts about this and you'll be able to find out where the great city Babylon the Great is located and who are those people composing it.
An evangelical pastor Lindsey Williams has been in contact with these people. He went as a missionary to the workers for oilcompanies in Alaska about 40 years ago and the oilcompanie's bosses where happy to have him there 3 years and he helped them to solve difficulties between the personel etc. He was so appreciated that the big bosses of the oilcompanies even let him sometimes sit and listen to when they had meetings with bankers and government officials. And he became a good friend with some of these CEOs and still have regular contact with them. And Lindsey says that these CEOs dictate governments what to do. So if this can be true, there you have Babylon the Great. Lindsey especially mentions Wall Street where the decisions are made. So if this is true, then there you have the great city, it is New York. And in that case really God's peolpe should leave New York because it is Babylon the Great. There are the headquarters of Jehovah's witnesses and a high percentage of jews living there. I just wonder how many of them will leave before it is to late. I've written to the society and warned them. But they continue to insist that Babylon the Great is the world power of all false religions, as they do in this years district assemblies.
But I am not yet completely sure if Babylon the Great is only New York or if it includes USA.
Good souces of information are on youtube, you can type Lindsey Williams, or just Babylon the Great and you will get information. But on Babylon the Great there are different explanations, but quite many connect it with USA.


Jan Kosonen:

I really agree with you. The United States or New York City IMO, is Babylon.. She is also, anti-typical Jerusalem and that is why she is a woman.. She is the woman of God, gone apostate... And she spreads her fornication throughout the earth by means of the World Trade Center and Wall Street.. I wonder if the World Trade Center will finish being rebuilt? I will wager not. The USA is the center of the Christian world and on a beautiful land that God has previously blessed, but we are going down because of our arrogance. And it will be replaced with the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom may reign on this earth.. from the USA.. It has to have a center where the Prince sits, right? What do you say?



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-02-2011 03:22 PM

Jan Kosonen Wrote:
Hi, I just been looking a 1,5 hour youtube video, a interview of Aaron Russo, a succesful business man and filmmaker. He tells how Nick Rockefeller tried to recruit him to futher the elites agenda of world enslavement. And Alex Jones asked him who owns the Federal Reserve in Washington, and Aaron tells that it is owned by the private bank called Federal Reserve Bank of New York. So there you have it again, all the evil comes from New York, the great city Babylon the Great.
Aaron Russo's websit is http://www.freedomtofascism.com


Jan, I agree that there are many evil parts (including the United Nations) to New York city. But remember that Revelation 17:18 says:

"And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."

And, while New York's mother country, the US would like to have that kind of power, it can't even begin to make that boast. So how could it be said about New York? The Great City would be a global power elite, directly below Satan himself.

Seeing that Babylon the Great is the "mother" of the harlots it would logically follow that her sons and daughters would follow in her footsteps. Little "chips" off the old block. And, wouldn't it also follow that they would resemble her in their corruption and wicked agenda?

So I give you that about New York -- like mother like daughter.

BTW, loved Aaron Russo and so sorry that he's dead. He always told us the truth without fearing the consequences. I'd love to see his movie "America -- Freedom to Fascism". (so much to do--so little time) (sigh)

love,
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - NewTruth - 07-02-2011 03:30 PM



New York City of the USA... is the most powerful city on earth...and the center of the world. IMO



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Beau Wetini - 07-02-2011 04:08 PM

Great thoughts everyone!

If Babylon is New York City, and it has only a population of around 20+ million people in the metro area - assuming at least 30% of those people are Christian, that means that the call to flee Babylon is only meant for around 6 million Christians living in the early part of the 21st century in the New York metro area.

It would also mean that the call to flee has no direct relevance to ANY other Christian living either in the present time who does not live in the New York metro area, nor to the many billions who live elsewhere and have lived during the last 2000 or should years.

Not saying its wrong.....but it seems like for such a monumental event to take place, its makes it seem insignificant it its scope and its application.

Surely its a bit bigger than that?

imo! :D


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - AlienResident - 07-02-2011 04:21 PM

In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people....

I wonder which prophets and God's holy people were martyred in New York?


AR


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-02-2011 05:03 PM

Revelation 18:24 says even further: 

"Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth."

....and that goes all the way back to Able.

Jesus spoke to agents of Babylon the Great when he addressed the religious leaders of the Jerusalem of his day with these words:

"Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen′na?  For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri′ah son of Bar·a·chi′ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation." -- Matthew 23:33-36

He called them serpents because they were doing the bidding of the original serpent, Satan the Devil. They were his offspring according to Jesus' further words at John 8:44:

"YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him."

God's judgment on apostate Jerusalem will be visited on the "mother" of the harlots in even greater measure.

"And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. Render to her even as she herself rendered, and do to her twice as much, yes, twice the number of the things she did; in the cup in which she put a mixture put twice as much of the mixture for her. To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.’ That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong." -- Revelation 18:4-8

Jerusalem was only a daughter. And I'm guessing there's more than one seed of the serpent. Because Babylon the Great's killing spree goes all the way back to Able, I'm also guessing that Cain was also a seed of the serpent and an agent of destruction of the righteous.

Giant jigsaw, peeps. All hands on deck.

cheers,
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Jan Kosonen - 07-02-2011 05:07 PM

AlienResident Wrote:
In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people....

I wonder which prophets and God's holy people were martyred in New York?


AR

Hi AlienResident, the slaughter begins when the beast begins its 42 month rule. The whore Babylon, the bankers and eugenics of New York are preparing the beast to do that. This will be the time of the red horse of Revelation.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - smoldering wick - 07-02-2011 05:30 PM

NewTruth Wrote:


New York City of the USA... is the most powerful city on earth...and the center of the world. IMO

Ah! So do I hear there is yet another remake of Escape From New York??? :funnyface:



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Jan Kosonen - 07-02-2011 06:03 PM

Hi smoldering wick, funny film, like a prediction. :thumbup:


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Jan Kosonen - 07-02-2011 06:11 PM

Hi Resolute, I agree on your explanation how all killed on earth can be found in Babylon the Great. And I watched the video to. Really the world is going crazy.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-02-2011 06:16 PM

Jan Kosonen Wrote:
Hi Resolute, I agree on your explanation how all killed on earth can be found in Babylon the Great. And I watched the video to. Really the world is going crazy.


Indeed it is going crazy, my brother.....and fast! I'll get back on this more later.

rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Jan Kosonen - 07-03-2011 10:54 AM

NewTruth Wrote:
Jan Kosonen:

I really agree with you. The United States or New York City IMO, is Babylon..
And it will be replaced with the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom may reign on this earth.. from the USA.. It has to have a center where the Prince sits, right? What do you say?


Hi New Truth, I'm happy that we are on the same line about Babylon the Great. But I believe Jerusalem will be the central place on earth forever. If I could go there and stay there right now I would not hesitate. Today I was reading Ezekiel and agian I came across scriptures pointing to Jerusalem.
Son of man, [this is] the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I shall reside in the midst of the sons of Israel to time indefinite; Eze 43:7
and the name of the city from [that] day on will be Jehovah Himself Is There.” Eze 48:35


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-03-2011 12:00 PM

Here is a scripture which I believe helps to identify the Harlot aka Babylon the Great:

Revelation 17:15
And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.

Babylon the Great has to be an entity who is followed by all the different kinds of people in all the different countries in every different kind of language. (aka tongues)

Please spend some time thinking about that.

What entity has the capability to communicate with every single kind of person from every country in every language?

Including braille for blind people and also the different sign languages for deaf people?

Google is the entity which I suspect would come to most peoples minds.

But hey, lets pick some kind of language thats probably not spoken by many people, and put Google to the test.

How about sign language for deaf Zimbabweans?

I invite you to give it a try:

http://www.watchtower.org/zsl/dvkt/article_01.htm


I invite you to try the same thing in 418 languages:

http://www.watchtower.org/languages.htm


In fact if ALL the earth follows the wild beast in admiration then the wild beast had better be able to speak their language (tongues).


I challenge you to find another entity that can actually do that!




In Christ


abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Beau Wetini - 07-03-2011 12:38 PM

Hi Abe!

Id say that there is something that smashes the Watchtower, and that is >
"The Flesh" - or specifically, the DESIRE of the Flesh. With the Harlot (Desire) controlling the Beast (Flesh) - the Desire of the Beast is what controls the Beast.

"The Flesh" can speak in EVERY SINGLE LANGUAGE ever known to EVERY culture, in EVERY country, in EVERY TRIBE, and throughout ALL HUMAN HISTORY. Thats right - the flesh, which we all have, knows no boundaries in terms of its ability to affect all human beings. In fact, its far more efficient, flexible and far reaching than a bit of corporate propaganda on a 2-bit coporate propaganda website!


Abe - there are way too many limitations that the Watchtower has in being Babylon the Great.

One is the fact that most people have not even heard of it before. The utter insignificance of the Watchtower is exemplified by the fact that 90% of the people of this planet dont know that it even exists! It is the prophetic equivalent of saying that New Zealand plays a central role in the outworking of God's Will. Like - WHO THE HECK IS NEW ZEALAND? (as much as it pains me to say that, being a Kiwi and all!)

Now, im not saying your wrong, and im right - but, the Watchtower?

New York City has a better chance of being the Harlot!

imo.... :D



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-03-2011 05:42 PM

Beau Wrote:
Now, im not saying your wrong, and im right - but, the Watchtower?

New York City has a better chance of being the Harlot!


ROFL


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - isomam - 07-03-2011 06:43 PM

where'a blindzebra when we need her? :dontknow:

she could explain one million and one reasons why new york city has to be btg. :whistle:


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-03-2011 06:48 PM

Beau Wetini Wrote:
Hi Abe!

Id say that there is something that smashes the Watchtower, and that is >
"The Flesh" - or specifically, the DESIRE of the Flesh. With the Harlot (Desire) controlling the Beast (Flesh) - the Desire of the Beast is what controls the Beast.

"The Flesh" can speak in EVERY SINGLE LANGUAGE ever known to EVERY culture, in EVERY country, in EVERY TRIBE, and throughout ALL HUMAN HISTORY. Thats right - the flesh, which we all have, knows no boundaries in terms of its ability to affect all human beings. In fact, its far more efficient, flexible and far reaching than a bit of corporate propaganda on a 2-bit coporate propaganda website!


Abe - there are way too many limitations that the Watchtower has in being Babylon the Great.

One is the fact that most people have not even heard of it before. The utter insignificance of the Watchtower is exemplified by the fact that 90% of the people of this planet dont know that it even exists! It is the prophetic equivalent of saying that New Zealand plays a central role in the outworking of God's Will. Like - WHO THE HECK IS NEW ZEALAND? (as much as it pains me to say that, being a Kiwi and all!)

Now, im not saying your wrong, and im right - but, the Watchtower?

New York City has a better chance of being the Harlot!

imo.... :D


Beau,

The "Flesh" is a language?

Sounds like some kind of new age philosophy to me.

If thats the the best objection you can manufacture then I guess I'll let it speak for itself.

Your next objection is that 90% of the world don't know the Watchtower exists.

Well the Watchtower is the ONLY entity that can, and do communicate with 100% of the worlds population in their own language (tongue).

There is no other identifiable entity that can do this!

Revelation 17:15
And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.

They can and do communicate with even the lessor known languages in New Zealand.

Check it out:

Maori

http://www.watchtower.org/ma/index.html


New Zealand Sign Language

http://www.watchtower.org/nzs/dvkt/article_01.htm


In my opinion their ability to spread lies to peoples and crowds and nations and tongues far exceeds any other communication channel on the planet.

New York is their headquarters and so yes, I wouldn't want to be in New York just for that reason.


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-03-2011 06:52 PM

isomam Wrote:
where'a blindzebra when we need her? :dontknow:

she could explain one million and one reasons why new york city has to be btg. :whistle:



I think Robert King banned her for suggesting the Watchtower was Babylon the Great.

Don't know where she went after that.

Somewhere in Florida I believe.


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - NewTruth - 07-03-2011 10:24 PM

Jan Kosonen Wrote:

NewTruth Wrote:
Jan Kosonen:

I really agree with you. The United States or New York City IMO, is Babylon..
And it will be replaced with the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom may reign on this earth.. from the USA.. It has to have a center where the Prince sits, right? What do you say?


Hi New Truth, I'm happy that we are on the same line about Babylon the Great. But I believe Jerusalem will be the central place on earth forever. If I could go there and stay there right now I would not hesitate. Today I was reading Ezekiel and agian I came across scriptures pointing to Jerusalem.
Son of man, [this is] the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I shall reside in the midst of the sons of Israel to time indefinite; Eze 43:7
and the name of the city from [that] day on will be Jehovah Himself Is There.” Eze 48:35


Hi Jan... I believe one must look @ the prophesies in the Hebrew Scriptures as antitypical... Another words.. when the scriptures say that Jerusalem and the land will be restored.. I think it's talking about the Isreal of God.. or the Christian nation.. rather than going back to the way it was in Solomon's day. The nation of Isreal was chosen because God needed a nation to fulfill the shadows of the Kingdom thru and for the Christ's linage to work thru. They killed the prophets and his son.. and God has now expanded the term Isreal.. and Jerusalem to mean something more.. It appears to me, that God has blessed the US.. and made it the center of the Christian world.. (at least with power and wealth.) That is why I think the USA is the new land of Canaan..God may have the message @ the end palable to the Jews to give them every chance to repent.. on account of the forefathers, but all get a chance to repent on the 2nd coming of Christ. Thoughts?




RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-04-2011 01:41 AM

Beau is right it is bigger...

I believe one of the reasons we see her in various places is because she is a 'pattern' thus she is the 'mother'. Yes a single city is modeled after her....the first city gives us a very good clue. They came together built thier city using fossil tar just like we have built a globalized link of cities with fossil fuel covering the whole world which has the majority of the human race supporting it with their effort because they are also dependant on it/her like a child on it's mother.

She is the whole living arrangment we have today driven by deep seated fleshly motivations with the phyical outward manifestation of the the build enviornment that serves to satisfy the flesh rather than serving the higher spirtual calling of God.

Digging

PS thank-you for starting this topic yet again...


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Beau Wetini - 07-04-2011 04:07 AM

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Beau,

The "Flesh" is a language?

Sounds like some kind of new age philosophy to me.



LOL....yes, it is a language, but not limited to linguistics. Dont you know that language is more than linguistics? :D Language can be any form of communication. It can also be the reciprocated transfer of energy.

What is the one thing that ALL people who live and have lived on this planet have in common?

Is it their experience with the Watchtower? No. Far from it. (and thank God that most people have no idea about how insignificant the Watchtower is).

It is their sinful nature - the Flesh. The Babylonian Spirit. This is the part of man that resonates with Babylon, both in feeding its existence and in the speaking of its "language". It is that which collectively stands in opposition to God and His Will and Purpose >



For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;

For it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:5-8 NASB



So what language do those in "the flesh" speak, Abe?

Ill give you the answer -- they speak in EVERY language, in EVERY culture, in EVERY tribe, in EVERY nation, that has EVER lived in human history right from Adam and Eve.



Abe Wrote:
Well the Watchtower is the ONLY entity that can, and do communicate with 100% of the worlds population in their own language (tongue).

There is no other identifiable entity that can do this!

Revelation 17:15
And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.

They can and do communicate with even the lessor known languages in New Zealand.

Check it out:

Maori

http://www.watchtower.org/ma/index.html


New Zealand Sign Language

http://www.watchtower.org/nzs/dvkt/article_01.htm


In my opinion their ability to spread lies to peoples and crowds and nations and tongues far exceeds any other communication channel on the planet.




The Watchtower does a good job of speaking lots of languages, yes - many more than most institutions. But here is the thing >

Where were those languages from the Watchtower in the 1800's?

What about the 1700's?

The 1600's?

What about the year 1100?

800?

600?

What about 300?

What about 300BC?

Or how about 1000BC?

Where was the Watchtower, Abe?

How about in the year 1500BC?

The truth is, the Watchtower's scope is extremely limited. It makes some kind of case if all the prophecies were only concerned with events that would happen in the last 150 years or so.

It would be like me trying to say that Winnipeg is the largest, most economically influencial and most populated city from which all of Canada springs from.

Does that make sense? (probably does if you are a die-hard denizen of Winnipeg! LOL!) - no, the reason it doesnt make sense is because there is a bigger picture playing out in reality.




Revelation 17:5 >


The name written on her forehead was a mystery:

BABYLON THE GREAT

THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES

AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


So Babylon is the MOTHER of Prostitutes (Harlots) and the MOTHER of the abominations of the Earth. For this to be a reality, She needs to be more than 100 or 200 years old. She needs to come from somewhere closer to the beginning of human history.

She literally is the genesis or beginning of ALL harlots and abominations on Earth. The Watchtower cannot make that claim, Abe. The closet the Watchtower comes to making a claim is that it is one of the many harlots of Babylon, but not THE Babylon.

The Roman Catholic Church and Rome have a FAR more substantial case for being Babylon than the Watchtower does (and while I do believe that Rome and the RCC are definitely Babylonian, im not sure they are the genesis of ALL harlots and abominations of the Earth)


Again, im not saying im right and your wrong (although, I do think your wrong...nothing personal, I just dont think the Watchtower is THAT important.) - in fact, im not sure I am 100% right - I try to steer clear of the outward external parts of Babylon - and instead try to understand the Spirit that is behind it.


Cheers bro! :D



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-04-2011 01:57 PM

Beau,

In my opinion the Watchtower Society has reversed the thing that Jehovah put in place to stop the lessor Babylon.

Consider this:

Genesis 11:6-9
6 After that Jehovah said: “Look! They are one people and there is one language for them all, and this is what they start to do. Why, now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them. 7 Come now! Let us go down and there confuse their language that they may not listen to one another’s language.” 8 Accordingly Jehovah scattered them from there over all the surface of the earth, and they gradually left off building the city. 9 That is why its name was called Ba´bel, because there Jehovah had confused the language of all the earth, and Jehovah had scattered them from there over all the surface of the earth.


The Watchtower Society is now able to speak and communicate in ALL languages.

Undoing the safeguard that Jehovah put into place.

Notice that what Jehovah did was in regard to literal languages.

Not some new age invented thing called "the flesh".


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-04-2011 02:17 PM

Actually Pentecost was the actual answer to Babel. When the tongues of fire came down and the language barrier was broken. Thus the kingdom had arrived unhindered by barriers such as language. Holy places where God was thought to dwell was no longer mountains, temples or man made mountains to reach heaven as though man could control God, but Christ who was in heaven and had send down access to heaven where he was via the holy supernatural spirit.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-04-2011 02:18 PM

Abe you just don't get it. The WT just does not fill all the requirements, in fact it hardly fulfills any. You suffer from from a WT fixation.
As pointed out by Beau, the WT has not been around long enough.
"In her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones, and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth".

Some brilliant points there Seraphim.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-04-2011 02:30 PM

Seraphim Wrote:
Actually Pentecost was the actual answer to Babel. When the tongues of fire came down and the language barrier was broken. Thus the kingdom had arrived unhindered by barriers such as language. Holy places where God was thought to dwell was no longer mountains, temples or man made mountains to reach heaven as though man could control God, but Christ who was in heaven and had send down access to heaven where he was via the holy supernatural spirit.


Seraphim,

Yes, I think access to heaven is something that is essential for identifying Babylon The Great.

When a person gets baptised they hope their baptism and their vows come before Jesus Christ in the actual temple in heaven.

If it doesn't then baptism is irrelevant!

The Governing Body has reinvented Jesus Christs baptism so that their own name "God's Spirit Directed Oganization" is included in this baptismal requirement for salvation.

There are now 7 million people around the world in every nation, tribe and language who venerate and celebrate this new name through their baptism.

I think Babylon the Great, is Babylon the Great because they acheived what the lessor Babylon was unable to acheive:

What did the lessor Babylon try to acheive?

Read this carefully:


Genesis 11:3-4
3 And they began to say, each one to the other: “Come on! Let us make bricks and bake them with a burning process.” So brick served as stone for them, but bitumen served as mortar for them. 4 They now said: “Come on! Let us build ourselves a city and also a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, for fear we may be scattered over all the surface of the earth.”


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-04-2011 02:48 PM

man hu Wrote:
Abe you just don't get it. The WT just does not fill all the requirements, in fact it hardly fulfills any. You suffer from from a WT fixation.
As pointed out by Beau, the WT has not been around long enough. "In her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones, and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth".

Some brilliant points there Seraphim.


man hu,

So where was the place that was ""In her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones"?

So that a modern day equivalent can be determined?


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-04-2011 03:02 PM

Good points again Beau,

To add to what you have been thinking. Did God not say to Adam because you have listened to the voice of your wife......and BEfORE that Adam said of her, she was flesh of my flesh and bone of my bones....

Soooooo was not Adam listening to his flesh when his listened to her...

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-04-2011 03:21 PM

"In her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones, and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth".

Rev:18:24


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-04-2011 03:40 PM

ablebodiedman Wrote:

Seraphim Wrote:
Actually Pentecost was the actual answer to Babel. When the tongues of fire came down and the language barrier was broken. Thus the kingdom had arrived unhindered by barriers such as language. Holy places where God was thought to dwell was no longer mountains, temples or man made mountains to reach heaven as though man could control God, but Christ who was in heaven and had send down access to heaven where he was via the holy supernatural spirit.


Seraphim,

Yes, I think access to heaven is something that is essential for identifying Babylon The Great.

When a person gets baptised they hope their baptism and their vows come before Jesus Christ in the actual temple in heaven.

If it doesn't then baptism is irrelevant!

The Governing Body has reinvented Jesus Christs baptism so that their own name "God's Spirit Directed Oganization" is included in this baptismal requirement for salvation.

There are now 7 million people around the world in every nation, tribe and language who venerate and celebrate this new name through their baptism.

I think Babylon the Great, is Babylon the Great because they acheived what the lessor Babylon was unable to acheive:

What did the lessor Babylon try to acheive?

Read this carefully:


Genesis 11:3-4
3 And they began to say, each one to the other: “Come on! Let us make bricks and bake them with a burning process.” So brick served as stone for them, but bitumen served as mortar for them. 4 They now said: “Come on! Let us build ourselves a city and also a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, for fear we may be scattered over all the surface of the earth.”


In Christ

abe


If the WT has a name at all its certainly not a celebrated one. `Infamous` comes to mind. The WT is very unimportant in the grand scheme of things.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-04-2011 03:55 PM

man hu Wrote:
"In her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones, and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth".

Rev:18:24


man hu,

Yes, had Christianity been successful then we should have peace on the earth.

What Jesus Christ said and did in the 1st century should have worked.

So yes, the undermining and failure of Christianity is responsible for ALL the blood spilled on the earth.

Just as Jerusalem was declared responsible by Jesus Christ in the 1st Century:

Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,

So we should be looking for a modern day Jerusalem.



In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-04-2011 04:03 PM

Seraphim Wrote:
If the WT has a name at all its certainly not a celebrated one. `Infamous` comes to mind. The WT is very unimportant in the grand scheme of things.


Seraphim,

If the grand scheme of things has anything to do with heaven then a celebrated name that reaches into the holy temple is very important in the grand scheme of things!

I agree that it is an infamous name.

The name of the wild beast.

A venerated name.



In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-04-2011 04:11 PM

ablebodiedman Wrote:

Seraphim Wrote:
If the WT has a name at all its certainly not a celebrated one. `Infamous` comes to mind. The WT is very unimportant in the grand scheme of things.


Seraphim,

If the grand scheme of things has anything to do with heaven then a celebrated name that reaches into the holy temple is very important in the grand scheme of things!

I agree that it is an infamous name.

The name of the wild beast.

A venerated name.



In Christ

abe


Then include every denomination.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-04-2011 05:24 PM

Seraphim Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:

Seraphim Wrote:
If the WT has a name at all its certainly not a celebrated one. `Infamous` comes to mind. The WT is very unimportant in the grand scheme of things.


Seraphim,

If the grand scheme of things has anything to do with heaven then a celebrated name that reaches into the holy temple is very important in the grand scheme of things!

I agree that it is an infamous name.

The name of the wild beast.

A venerated name.



In Christ

abe


Then include every denomination.


Seraphim,

I do actually think all the other denominations are wild beasts!

It is however, the last wild beast which Revelation brings to the foreground.

What I am thinking, is completely in line with how Daniel describes a progression of wild beasts with the last one playing a very significant role.

In my opinion the Watchtower Society was the last chance for Christianity.

The last chance for ALL the entire world!

The last chance has been completely perverted and undermined just as Daniel explained it would be.

There is no hope left inside Christianity.

The other denominations were undermined a long time ago.

The only hope left now is for Jesus Christ himself.


Please come soon.


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-04-2011 08:25 PM

I think you have missed the whole point of Christianity Abe.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-04-2011 08:56 PM

Seraphim Wrote:
I think you have missed the whole point of Christianity Abe.


To bring peace, justice and love to ALL the people in the world?


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-04-2011 09:04 PM

You can say the words but you don't know the tune!


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Beau Wetini - 07-05-2011 01:37 AM

LOL Abe....brother - the Watchtower can only fill Babylon's description, if you have a huge theological dependancy upon it, where everything else you believe also hinges on its playing a central role in prophecy. You have far too much to lose if you are wrong - hence, you will never see anything differently. In Psychology, its called Secondary Gain.


In the interests of not feeding this dependancy any further, I shall disgress from rebutting any points you make - in which you shall interpret this to mean, that you are making a solid case that cannot be dismantled. And that is ok.

We must all believe what we must believe.


Cheers bro! :D



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - isomam - 07-05-2011 07:52 AM

Beau Wetini Wrote:
LOL Abe....brother - the Watchtower can only fill Babylon's description, if you have a huge theological dependency upon it, where everything else you believe also hinges on its playing a central role in prophecy. You have far too much to lose if you are wrong - hence, you will never see anything differently. In Psychology, its called Secondary Gain.


In the interests of not feeding this dependancy any further, I shall disgress from rebutting any points you make - in which you shall interpret this to mean, that you are making a solid case that cannot be dismantled. And that is ok.

We must all believe what we must believe.


Cheers bro! :D


wise insights, my young brother. :thumbup: when it comes to being harsh on abe, i probably used to be the worst offender. then -- finally -- i realized that he is stll crippled as a prisoner of the watchtower. in fact, now even more so than when he was an active member. only holy spirit will determine when it is time for those massive scales to fall from his eyes. sadly, the "tree" we know as ablebodiedman still needs the "bark" known as watchtower theology covering and protecting it/him. it must be protecting him from some deeper issues which would otherwise endanger him even more greatly. he deserves our pity, not our ridicule (or rebuttal), just as you say.

in the meantime, ... he ain't heavy, he's our brother.




RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-05-2011 11:03 AM

Beau Wetini Wrote:
LOL Abe....brother - the Watchtower can only fill Babylon's description, if you have a huge theological dependancy upon it, where everything else you believe also hinges on its playing a central role in prophecy. You have far too much to lose if you are wrong - hence, you will never see anything differently. In Psychology, its called Secondary Gain.


In the interests of not feeding this dependancy any further, I shall disgress from rebutting any points you make - in which you shall interpret this to mean, that you are making a solid case that cannot be dismantled. And that is ok.

We must all believe what we must believe.


Cheers bro! :D


Beau,

Yes, I do believe the Watchtower plays a central role in prophecy and have given plenty of good reasons why, all supported by scripture.

I have carefully read and examined what all the other posters in this thread think about Babylon the Great including your own thoughts.

The main objections that I can find to what I believe are:

1/ The Watchtower does not include "ALL" the earth.
2/ The tongues (or languages) are a language of the flesh that everyone speaks.
3/ The Watchtower is too insignificant to fulfill bible prophecy on a grand scale.

If we are on a bible research forum then I should be able to voice my beliefs like everyone else and if those beliefs are solid also overcome any objections.

If I cannot overcome the objections then perhaps I should take another look at what it is I personally believe.

On the other hand if you cannot overcome the beliefs which I stated and supported above then perhaps you should reconsider what it is that you believe.

What do I have to lose?

Thats a good question!

When Jesus Christ judges me I will tell him what I believed and the reasons why.

If he asks me about Babylon the Great then much of what I believe is recorded here.

I am simply using the words he wrote in the bible and measuring those words against what I see happening in the world.

Not only that, I am also sharing and testing what I see with Christian brothers on a bible discussion forum.

I have shared my strong convictions by writing a book, several blogs and making many videos.

I have done that also because of what Jesus Christ said in the bible.

I would not want Jesus Christ to condemn me for burying a silver talent.

Yes, I often consider your question above about what I have to lose.

I measure the concern it raises by asking myself the question; "what will I say to Jesus Christ when he judges me?"


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-05-2011 11:28 AM

Just don't say to him I did many powerful works in your name. :)


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Beau Wetini - 07-05-2011 12:02 PM

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Beau,

Yes, I do believe the Watchtower plays a central role in prophecy and have given plenty of good reasons why, all supported by scripture.

I have carefully read and examined what all the other posters in this thread think about Babylon the Great including your own thoughts.

The main objections that I can find to what I believe are:

1/ The Watchtower does not include "ALL" the earth.
2/ The tongues (or languages) are a language of the flesh that everyone speaks.
3/ The Watchtower is too insignificant to fulfill bible prophecy on a grand scale.

If we are on a bible research forum then I should be able to voice my beliefs like everyone else and if those beliefs are solid also overcome any objections.

If I cannot overcome the objections then perhaps I should take another look at what it is I personally believe.

On the other hand if you cannot overcome the beliefs which I stated and supported above then perhaps you should reconsider what it is that you believe.

What do I have to lose?

Thats a good question!

When Jesus Christ judges me I will tell him what I believed and the reasons why.

If he asks me about Babylon the Great then much of what I believe is recorded here.

I am simply using the words he wrote in the bible and measuring those words against what I see happening in the world.

Not only that, I am also sharing and testing what I see with Christian brothers on a bible discussion forum.

I have shared my strong convictions by writing a book, several blogs and making many videos.

I have done that also because of what Jesus Christ said in the bible.

I would not want Jesus Christ to condemn me for burying a silver talent.

Yes, I often consider your question above about what I have to lose.

I measure the concern it raises by asking myself the question; "what will I say to Jesus Christ when he judges me?"


In Christ

abe



We must believe what we must believe, bro Abe.

Your viewpoint is just as warranted and as justified as any other.

Thanks for your reply, but I must decline in engaging any further.

Cheers bro! :D



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-05-2011 12:32 PM

Beau Wetini Wrote:


We must believe what we must believe, bro Abe.

Your viewpoint is just as warranted and as justified as any other.

Thanks for your reply, but I must decline in engaging any further.

Cheers bro! :D

There lies the rub Abe. Many just give up even trying to reason any longer.

You have had many wise answers and as yet can't get it...as yet.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Beau Wetini - 07-05-2011 12:35 PM

digging Wrote:
Good points again Beau,

To add to what you have been thinking. Did God not say to Adam because you have listened to the voice of your wife......and BEfORE that Adam said of her, she was flesh of my flesh and bone of my bones....

Soooooo was not Adam listening to his flesh when his listened to her...

Digging



Hi sis Digging - wow - thats cool! I never thought of it like that - and it seems to fit nicely -- so Adam listened to his flesh - his own desire - and also listened to his wife, who was also his flesh - instead of listening to God....I like it alot! :D

Just throwing some more random thoughts out there.....


And contrasting the role of a harlot, with the role of a wife.

A harlot lives outside of God's arrangment in terms of their being "one flesh" with another - whereas a wife is "one flesh" with her husband.

So in base terms, a harlot is desire that exists outside of God's arrangement.

If the beast (the flesh) is controlled by the harlot - then it is like the most expressed and explicit external form of that which is spoken about in Revelation. So each time a person aligns with their desire/s that exist outside of God's arrangement (not just sex, but anything that resonates with darkness), they become a beast controlled by the harlot.

Collectively, the mass consciousness of mankind has created many forms in which this dynamic expresses itself.

The one thing I used to have trouble with, was the part where God puts it into the heart of the beast to tear the harlot to pieces and to consume her.....

But I think ive found a resolution --- thats not to say that I am right, or anything - but it sure is fun to speculate!

Cheers sis! :D



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-05-2011 01:09 PM

Hi Resolute

Resolute Wrote:
Just a little note on the word "city" so that we aren't in danger of naming an actual physical city such as London, New York of the Vatican, have a look at the Strongs definition:


You say that as if it's WRONG to consider the possibility of BTG being an ACTUAL city (despite the angel telling us it's a city).

True, "New Jerusalem" is called a city in the Bible... but so was "old" Jerusalem. So it CAN be an actual city. In fact, much of the symbology of BTG is swiped from ancient Babylon, the CITY, and her description in Isaiah and Jeremiah... along with other cities like Tyre and Ninevah, all of whom were capital cities of their respective empires. Ninevah was also described as a harlot, and Babylon a mistress of kingdoms, responsible for all the shed blood on earth. (Jeremiah 51:49)

Also, in terms of the "mystery", the angel essentially REVEALS the mystery to John, in terms that his immediate audience could understand.

John's readers were already familiar with Daniel's prophecy of the "ten horned" kingdom that would follow after Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. That ten horned beast was the Roman kingdom. John uses the same symbology, even cluing his readers in by using the same descriptions as Daniel, i.e. "leopard", "bear", "lion" (Rev 13:2). In other words, the identity of the beast was perhaps a mystery to non-Christian readers, but to Christian readers, they would recognize the ten horned beast as the Roman empire, the dominant power of the day.

Daniel is given the interpretation of the ten horns: "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them". (Dan 7:24)

In John's day, these ten kings existed, but had not yet received a kingdom: "And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power." (Rev 17:12)

These ten kings emerged after the Roman empire split into two ("divided", Dan 2:41) and later fragmented into independent kingdoms.

This is the prophetic framework with which we should view John's symbolism, which clearly draws from Daniel.

The angel speaks in the present tense, to John in his own time. He is quite capable of speaking in the future tense, i.e. "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot". In other words, this is something he is GOING to do.

The angel foretells what the woman will do, using the future tense... "And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the harlot; they will make her desolate..."

However, the interpretation is given in the PRESENT tense. "And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth."

This was something John would be familiar with, there and then, at the time of writing... the 1st century... this great city already WAS one that had "dominion over the kings of the earth".

Bottom line is this. In Daniel's prophecies, there are only FOUR kingdoms that dominate the world, before Christ's kingdom... Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

There is also the mysterious "small horn", but that is treated as PART OF the 4th kingdom, and NOT some 5th kingdom.

The "ten horned" beast of Daniel is the Roman empire, and the "small horn" must emerge out of the Roman empire.

John draws from this symbology in Revelation. The first wild beast perfectly fits the description of the Roman empire of the 1st century onwards (compare Luke 2:1, Augustus having authority over "all the inhabited earth"), with the second wild beast being some offshoot of the Roman empire that acts as a false prophet to this empire, while at the same time existing "in its sight". There is, to me, an obvious candidate, and it still exists today and still acts as a false prophet.

However, the common denominator in all of this is ROME... or as 2nd century church father Iranaeus pointed out, the LATEINOS... the 4th kingdom of Daniel, which sums to 666.

True, this ain't as exciting as some "end times" stuff about the NWO and the Bildebergers etc... but it means Daniel and Revelation harmonize perfectly, and remarkably...match up with 2,000 years of history, still being accurate today!


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-05-2011 01:17 PM

man hu Wrote:

Beau Wetini Wrote:


We must believe what we must believe, bro Abe.

Your viewpoint is just as warranted and as justified as any other.

Thanks for your reply, but I must decline in engaging any further.

Cheers bro! :D

There lies the rub Abe. Many just give up even trying to reason any longer.

You have had many wise answers and as yet can't get it...as yet.


man hu,

If there were any really wise answers then I should not be able to overturn them so easily with reason and scripture.

Please don't just tell me I don't get it.

Explain why with a wise and reasonable answer



In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-05-2011 01:17 PM

man hu Wrote:
"In her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones, and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth".

Rev:18:24


Remember, God also said this about ancient Babylon:

"And over Babylon the heavens and the earth and all that is in them will certainly cry out joyfully, for out of the north there will come to her the despoilers,' is the utterance of Jehovah. 'Not only was Babylon the cause for the slain ones of Israel to fall, but also at Babylon the slain ones of all the earth have fallen.'" (Jeremiah 51:48,49)

How was this possible? Babylon was the CAPITAL of the Babylonian empire, and Jehovah had granted Nebuchadnezzar rulership of the world. In this sense, then, it was responsible for all deaths on the earth. Even if it didn't literally cause every death, Jehovah CHARGED IT TO THEIR ACCOUNT.

Similarly with Jerusalem, the capital of Israel. The scribes and Pharisees, and their generation, were NOT literally responsible for the blood of Abel to Zechariah, but since they claimed to inherit those things, Jehovah CHARGED IT TO THEIR ACCOUNT.

What about the capital that ruled the world in John's day? Revelation shows that God was holding it bloodguilty as well, in the same way that the capitals Babylon and Jerusalem were bloodguilty.

John lived in the days of the 4th and last kingdom of Daniel... the ten horned Roman empire... and it shed more Jewish and Christian blood than Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece combined.

Do you think God let it off? Revelation says NO.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-05-2011 01:33 PM

Beau Wetini Wrote:

digging Wrote:
Good points again Beau,

To add to what you have been thinking. Did God not say to Adam because you have listened to the voice of your wife......and BEfORE that Adam said of her, she was flesh of my flesh and bone of my bones....

Soooooo was not Adam listening to his flesh when his listened to her...

Digging



Hi sis Digging - wow - thats cool! I never thought of it like that - and it seems to fit nicely -- so Adam listened to his flesh - his own desire - and also listened to his wife, who was also his flesh - instead of listening to God....I like it alot! :D

Just throwing some more random thoughts out there.....


And contrasting the role of a harlot, with the role of a wife.

A harlot lives outside of God's arrangment in terms of their being "one flesh" with another - whereas a wife is "one flesh" with her husband.

So in base terms, a harlot is desire that exists outside of God's arrangement.

If the beast (the flesh) is controlled by the harlot - then it is like the most expressed and explicit external form of that which is spoken about in Revelation. So each time a person aligns with their desire/s that exist outside of God's arrangement (not just sex, but anything that resonates with darkness), they become a beast controlled by the harlot.

Collectively, the mass consciousness of mankind has created many forms in which this dynamic expresses itself.

The one thing I used to have trouble with, was the part where God puts it into the heart of the beast to tear the harlot to pieces and to consume her.....

But I think ive found a resolution --- thats not to say that I am right, or anything - but it sure is fun to speculate!

Cheers sis! :D


Good points both of you there. Just adding to that my view that the creation account was largely about idolatry and the responce to it if you remember a post I made about that a while ago. Idolatry was always paralleled to adultery in scripture which is why the `works of flesh` vs the `fruits of the spirit`theme is so apparent in Genesis. Even the bit where Adam says this is `at last flesh of my flesh and bone of my bones` is interesting. Contrasted with the second Adam Jesus who says don't judge by outward appearance and even before.

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart."


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - BeginAgain - 07-05-2011 08:50 PM

Oh wow, what a great thread and so many interesting posts. Thank you Rez for rebooting this subject. I agree with a good many of you, but am concerned for a couple of you, who continue to cling to your "mother" with her self-made cultist importance.

IMHO, this is a very successful organization, that's all it is. All organized religions are part of BTG. There are good people in all religions, however, some are making attempts to get out for one reason or another. I'd like to think it's to worship God in a purer, more joyful way. But as for the WT, it's just an over glorified publishing company that now has convinced it's members earth-wide to sign over the land and it's buildings to the "mother" corporation, making it more wealthy than the Pope and Queen of England combined. Talk about greedy!

[Please keep in mind that this land was originally purchased by the people in that area with the local elders as legal owners on the titles. My parents being of those who have shelled out thousands and thousands of dollars over the years to help buy properties and build KHs, only to be told that this new arrangement is better because now the brothers won't have to pay anymore property taxes].

I thank God for everything everyday, as I'm sure you all do, but right now I say a special "thank you " for the instant surge of information that the internet provides. Anyone can find and follow their heart, the internet brings it all. There is overwhelming evidence that the WT is as dirty as the next church group (local or international), but it is not anything special or unique that would place it in front of the rest. It's a big money machine! (cut them apron strings before you get strangled)

w/love & respect



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-06-2011 01:27 AM

Lovely reply BeginAgain.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - COMankind - 07-06-2011 09:14 AM

"I adorned you with jewelry: I put bracelets on your arms and a necklace around your neck, and I put a ring on your nose, earrings on your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. So you were adorned with gold and silver; your clothes were of fine linen and costly fabric and embroidered cloth. Your food was fine flour, honey and olive oil. You became very beautiful and rose to be a queen. And your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, because the splendor I had given you made your beauty perfect, declares the Sovereign LORD."

“‘But you trusted in your beauty and used your fame to become a prostitute. You lavished your favors on anyone who passed by and your beauty became his.d You took some of your garments to make gaudy high places, where you carried on your prostitution.

And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough?

" This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because you poured out your wealth and exposed your nakedness in your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable idols, and because you gave them your children’s blood, therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness."

This is Ezekiel 16 - a good chunk of it. It is in reference to Jerusalem, an actual city.

When Revelation was written, it was written to fulfill Jewish prophecy - keep in mind that Jews (even disciples) were looking for the temple to be rebuilt.

"A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth....The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days." Rev 12:1,6

This is God's bride. She is protected for a short period of time while she goes off to the desert.

"Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries...I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus." - Rev 17:3-4,6

This is a woman in a desert, who is a prostitute. She was adorned with jewels and riches, but she committed adultery (as if she was pure or married at one time, but decided to do something impure)

IMO - The Jews & Christians would have automatically known this to be Jerusalem back then. Why else would "New Jerusalem" have been used lovingly in the vision as the replacement?


-----

BTG could very well be something much smaller than we all want it to be. And just because it is smaller, does not mean it cant have significant impact and meaning for us today. Adam, Job, Abraham and Noah most certainly had a huge impact, and they were just individual men! So too with an entire nation in the first century.

in love


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-06-2011 02:16 PM

COMankind,

Interesting observations.

In the NWT it is called a wilderness not a desert.

Not that it matters what it is called as long as the reader understands that it is the same place.

Chapter 12 tells us that God brings the woman into the wilderness.

Where she is fed.

Chapter 17 tells us what that woman sees in the wilderness.

The woman in the wilderness sees the wild beast and the harlot.

Is this what she is fed?

The end of Chapter 12 tells us that it is the woman who sees the harlot and wild beast who becomes the target that Satan will war against.

Why would they become the target?

Does Satan not want anyone else to see through his unrighteous deception?

Absolutely!

In my opinion the faithfull ones are engaged in this war because they know exactly what it is they are battling against.

They will know who the wild beast and the 10 kings are:


Revelation 17:14
14 These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him [will do so].

The people who receive the mark of the wild beast are misled into receiving it by a false (Christian) prophet.

In my opinion, God's people who are told to flee Babylon the Great will only do so when they realize it is they who have the mark.

My stating that however, will raise a big question about how a person can get rid of the mark once they realize it has been received.

Something that Satan does not want them to understand.


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-06-2011 04:13 PM

Hi COMankind

Nice post. Yes, my second choice for the identity of "Babylon The Great" would be Jerusalem.

It boggles me how so many people here reject the idea of BTG being an actual CITY, given that the Old Testament is full of similar language directed against actual cities, Ezekiel 16 being one example.

However, I have two objections to the city being Jerusalem, from your theological frame:

(1) Jerusalem was not destroyed.

Even in Revelation 11, which I think we both agree is a reference to Jerusalem, the nations trample it for a LIMITED period of time... 42 months (in harmony with Jesus' own words about Jerusalem.)

Jerusalem did not suffer quite the same fate as the ancient capitals of Babylon, Ninevah which were to be sunk forever. BTG was to be sunk like a millstone, never to be found again.

(2) Jerusalem did not have a kingdom over the kings of the earth.

This is part of her description, in Revelation 17:18. How does Jerusalem sit on the wild beast? The kingdom of Judah was merely a province of the Roman empire, and while Jews enjoyed some privileges, I doubt any historian (except those who already believe in Preterism) believe Jerusalem had control of the Roman empire in any real sense.

Also, if BTG is Jerusalem, why the mystery? Why the secrecy? In fact, why did the angel not just say, "the woman that you saw means the great city Jerusalem"? Why shroud these things in riddles?

I think it more likely to be the OTHER great city in John's day... Rome. It would be much MORE politically subversive to say, "Rome is going to fall"... which explains why it is somewhat veiled. Christians weren't popular with Romans as it is!

Plus, it makes the link between the first and second wild beasts quite natural. What city had control of the Roman empire? Why, Rome! It is even styled "the city of the seven hills" (as alluded to in the prophecy). Jerusalem is never called anything like that.

Besides, another historical fact that cannot be ignored... other Jewish and Christian literature of the time, referred to Rome by the code-word "Babylon", especially after 70AD in which Rome acted as a second Babylon and destroyed the Temple. So Revelation is not alone in its use of "Babylon" as a codeword. And they all refer to Rome.

Jerusalem wasn't the only city to act as a harlot. Ninevah is also described as both a harlot and a sorceress, and she was never married to God.

Capital cities get special attention from God in the Old Testament, including Jerusalem and Samaria.

Now... what of the capital of the "ten horned" beast of Daniel?... the capital that shed more Jewish and Christian blood than the others combined?

God either (a) doesn't care about Rome's immense bloodshed or (b) he does, and has foretold its punishment somewhere.

I would suggest to you that the majority of Christians in John's day recognized Babylon The Great as ROME, although its possible identity as Jerusalem would give its readers political cover from the hostile Roman authorities.

Finally, don't forget... why the symbolism of BABYLON? Babylon become a city that ruled the world during the days of Nebuchadnezzar, and God used it to punish the Jews with exile, and with the destruction of their Temple.

Rome was therefore a second Babylon in this respect. The symbology fits. Rome even destroyed their Temple ON THE SAME DAY of the year (9 Av) as the Babylonians!


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-06-2011 04:52 PM

COMankind Wrote:
IMO - The Jews & Christians would have automatically known this to be Jerusalem back then. Why else would "New Jerusalem" have been used lovingly in the vision as the replacement?[/i]


COMankind,

Yes, Jews and Christians would probably have seen the literal city of Jerusalem being described as a "Harlot" or prostitute.

So 2000 years after the death of Jesus Christ what would Jerusalem be?

I think the answer is found by how the Apostles eventually perceived this "New Jerusalem" and by who it was being rebuilt:

Acts 15:13-17
After they quit speaking, James answered, saying: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah,


Looking back on what the Apostles said 2000 years ago we can see that what they were building was Christianity!

They were building it with the cooperation of people of the nations.

People called by God's name!

They made the connection to this by what the Prophet Amos wrote.

A person 2000 years later needs to ask themselves what name did Amos use in connection with the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

Was it Jehovah?

If so, then 2000 years later where should a person look for this city, the rebuilding of Jerusalem?


Would it not still be undertaken under the exact same premise that the bible shows the 1st Century Apostles had already understood.



In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-06-2011 05:11 PM

Sorry to be so late in getting back to this thread peeps. Summer is a busy time here....'cause it's so short in this neck of the woods.

Some great comments in the main, but also some that are very disturbing. I hope this post can clear some of this up.

There seems to be some confusion between two women here. I'll try to explain what I see happening. Let's go back to the first book of the bible at Genesis 3:14, 15, because this is our starting point. The difference between God's woman and the Devil's counterfeit should be clear from the wording.

"And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: “Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” -- Genesis 3:14-15

There are four separate entities being spoken of here:

1. The Serpent
2. The Woman
3. The Serpent's seed
4. The Woman's seed

We find these same four entities in Revelation 12.

"And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, and she was pregnant. And she cries out in her pains and in her agony to give birth. And another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and upon its heads seven diadems; and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child." -- Revelation 12:1-4

1. The Woman
2. The Dragon
3. The Dragon's seed
4. The Woman's seed

Who or what is "The Woman" arrayed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet and having a crown of twelve stars?

Who or what is the Dragon who is preparing to devour the woman's child as soon as it's born -- if possible?

Who or what are the third of the stars?

Who or what is the male child that is caught away to God and his throne?

One at a time, they are:

The Woman and her seed:- a bit hard to define if you've been trained in the WT with its distorted doctrine. The WT says that the woman is God's heavenly organization of faithful angels and that her seed is Jesus whom the holy angels are said to bring forth from among themselves, seeing that they believe that Jesus is one of the angels.

Why do they say this? I believe the main scripture they use is Hebrews 12:22-24

"But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s [blood]."

I get a slightly different take on "the woman" because I also consider what Paul said at Galatians 4:21-26:

"Tell me, YOU who want to be under law, Do YOU not hear the Law? For example, it is written that Abraham acquired two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by the free woman through a promise. These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si′nai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha′gar. Now this Ha′gar means Si′nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother."

Paul had said earlier at Galatians 26-29:

"YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise."

Paul had said that the Jerusalem above means a covenant or promise that led to a covenant. He also said that the seed of this woman was Christ Jesus and all those who were baptized into Christ.

What is seen happening in Revelation 12 is the birth of the kingdom. The male child is more than Christ Jesus because of what is written in Revelation 2:26-27.

"And to him that conquers and observes my deeds down to the end I will give authority over the nations, and he shall shepherd the people with an iron rod so that they will be broken to pieces like clay vessels, the same as I have received from my Father."

The woman in Revelation 12:5,6 gives birth to a male child:

"And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days."

Why does this woman flee into the wilderness? She has a place prepared by God, "away from the face of the serpent" (Revelation 12:14) But why?

According to Revelation 12:15-17 the woman has "remaining ones of her seed", more offspring of the New Covenant who have a work to do on earth and who are in danger from the dragon.

"And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon disgorged from its mouth. And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus."

Remember, at Genesis 3:15 God promised to put enmity between "the woman" and "the serpent"? That enmity doesn't go away and we find evidence of this in the previously quoted scripture. The war is on. If the Dragon cannot get at the woman/covenant he will go after those remaining who are in the covenant. God makes sure that the covenant will survive so that others can come into it for three and a half years more.

The Dragon and his seed:-

The Dragon is easy-peasy because Revelation 12:9-10 tells us directly.

"So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."

Now, here is an interesting part. The scriptures speaks of the Dragon and his angels battling. It also says earlier that his tail drags a third of the stars. Some, including the WT, have concluded that these stars are the Dragon's angels. But for a variety of reasons I've concluded that these stars are, in fact, those who once accepted Christ and who have proved unfaithful, having been deceived by Satan. They would also be part of the Serpent/Dragon's seed. They lose their heavenly standing.

Babylon the Great had its start from the time of the original promise of God at Genesis 3:15. It sprang directly from Satan and has always been corrupt.

On the other hand "the woman" is from God -- it is his promise to us of a covenant and is as incorruptible as God himself.

The enmity between these two was there from the beginning and will remain until God's promises are completely fulfilled.

Whew! What a lot of words. I hope I didn't write too much. Any questions? (I'll try my best to answer)

love to all,:grouphug:
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Beau Wetini - 07-06-2011 09:04 PM

Yep - to be the MOTHER of something means to be the originator something.

Which means it has to go waaaaaaaay back!


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-06-2011 09:55 PM

Resolute Wrote:
But for a variety of reasons I've concluded that these stars are, in fact, those who once accepted Christ and who have proved unfaithful, having been deceived by Satan. They would also be part of the Serpent/Dragon's seed. They lose their heavenly standing.


Rez,

They were a part of "the woman" and proved unfaithful?

Sounds like the saints (kings) started to fornicate with a "harlot" instead.


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - COMankind - 07-06-2011 09:56 PM

Interpretum:

Quote:
(1) Jerusalem was not destroyed.

there are many examples of people and cities being spiritually condemned and destroyed. Plus this is Revelation, so I think we can consider giving it poetic license. The temple was destroyed.


Quote:
(2) Jerusalem did not have a kingdom over the kings of the earth.


"Clap your hands, all you nations;
shout to God with cries of joy.
How awesome is the Lord Most High,
the great King over all the earth!
He subdued nations under us,
peoples under our feet.

He chose our inheritance for us,
the pride of Jacob, whom he loved. "
Psm 47:1-4

I'd recommend not reading Revelation in the context of historical, statistical data - but instead through the lens of how the Jews would have perceived it. Israel, and ultimately Jerusalem, to them was indeed THE kingdom over all.

Resolute

Quote:
And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed

I do follow you . I'd say this though....did you ever think why the New Testament is riddled with SO many accounts of demons being expelled?


Quote:
But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother."


More poetic license, just like in Revelation. The woman (which is figurative) was always there...even before Genesis. Revelation says she becomes a harlot, then a new woman is introduced as a bride. But honestly - this is all a teaching aid for Jews that couldn't mentally process spiritual things - these Jews were looking at brick and mortar.

Jews HAD to see Jerusalem and the temple wiped clean in order to look to heavenly Jerusalem. Jesus' death was a microcosm of this event - 'look at me, I'm being lifted into heaven! Look up! The kingdom is in your hearts, not in the Temple!' - the same lesson with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Quote:
In fact, why did the angel not just say, "the woman that you saw means the great city Jerusalem"?


Because it was obvious to them there, in that time and in that place.
Plus, they did say "new jerusalem" - I'm not sure what more we want?

Quote:
Yep - to be the MOTHER of something means to be the originator something.

Which means it has to go waaaaaaaay back!


Agree Beau. But I'll go further - there really is no woman. It is something God used to teach us. The woman was heavenly, it then became earthly (Identified as Jerusalem everywhere in the OT) and then it becomes heavenly again. This is the trail of MANS FOCUS. NOT the description of a literal kingdom or government.

------
God's heavenly government/kingdom/system/process/organization/domain does not literally change, this is a constant. He made it perfect. When the Bible says a "New Heaven" is installed, this is used to teach humans, it is not a literal description of something actually transforming.

Jews viewed heaven as something different before Jerusalem fell. Afterward, they looked to heaven for their shepherd, their direction and light. They should not be wailing over the Temple, but praising their God in heaven in love. The lesson was to let go of the physical world.

The reset button was supposed to be hearts, not metaphyscially.

Babylon the Great was a tool to teach them to stop looking at Jerusalem.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-06-2011 09:59 PM

Hi Rez

Thanks for your post! I'd like to comment on some of what you said:

Quote:
I get a slightly different take on "the woman" because I also consider what Paul said at Galatians 4:21-26:


Quote:
What is seen happening in Revelation 12 is the birth of the kingdom.


Yes. However, how did the kingdom come into being? In 33AD, Jesus proclaimed that the kingdom of God was near... and that it was even in their midst. In other words, the kingdom was born OUT OF Israel.

So if we have two options for the identity of the woman, based on Galatians 4... namely, "Jerusalem above" or "Jerusalem below", I would suggest the more likely identity is "Jerusalem below", because it is SHE that gives birth to Jerusalem above!

The "new covenant" was first given to physical Israel and Judah:

"“Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant..." (Jeremiah 31:31)

So those under the New Covenant were born FIRST from the house of Israel and Judah. Gentiles were grafted in to this "new covenant" arrangement that was first given to the Jews.

Quote:
The male child is more than Christ Jesus because of what is written in Revelation 2:26-27.


Just because they also use an iron rod, it doesn't automatically follow that they are the "male child". That is like saying, all dogs have four legs, my cat has four legs, therefore my dog is a cat.

We could use the same logic to say that the apostles ARE Jesus, because they're also going to sit on thrones like Jesus. This is clearly not valid logic. The "male child" and the ones that conquer in Revelation 2 could be different people, having the same goals... like "Jesus" and "the apostles" are different things but each receiving thrones.

Quote:
Remember, at Genesis 3:15 God promised to put enmity between "the woman" and "the serpent"? That enmity doesn't go away and we find evidence of this in the previously quoted scripture. The war is on.


I agree that Revelation 12 is undoubtedly alluding to Genesis 3. However, the prophecy explicitly speaks of ONE seed: "He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel."

This was kind of Paul's point, too... in Galatians 3... that the prophecies weren't really referring to many "seeds", but to ONE SEED... which is Christ.

However, prior to Christ the woman's seed was embodied in the nation of Israel's 12 tribes.

If Christ is the "him" in the Genesis 3 prophecy, then the woman is not the "new covenant", because Christ commences this new covenant by his own shed blood.

Instead, God gave Christ under the OLD covenant, first of all to Israel. Christ's blood opened the way for entry into this covenant for non-Jews.

So the imagery in Revelation 12 is JEWISH/CHRISTIAN. No less than THREE WOMEN act as a "type" for this woman...

Eve, to whom the prophecy was originally given, who had to become the mother of all mankind. It was her who first suffered birth pangs as her curse.

Rachel, who gave birth in Bethlehem (Ephrath) who had a hard delivery with Benjamin. She died just after giving birth. (Genesis 35:16-20) Immediately prior to this, Jacob had been renamed ISRAEL, the father of the 12 tribes.

Mary, who gave birth to Jesus in Bethlehem Ephratha (the same place as Rachel), and where Herod had all the children under 2 slain, in which they had to flee into Egypt.

The symbology of this woman in Rev 12 is meant to remind us of all three women, but I would suggest to you that she most likely pictures Israel, in her struggle to give birth to the Messiah.

She cannot be a covenant, because a covenant cannot and does not flee. PEOPLE flee. Israel fled to the wilderness after coming out of Egypt. Jesus' family fled to Egypt after Herod attempted to destroy the child, and the "true Israel" who listened to Jesus' words fled in 66AD when the Romans came and desolated their nation.

This is ultimately what Revelation 11 and 12 are about. A change of covenant. A destruction of the old Temple, and the opening of a new one in heaven.

Quote:
According to Revelation 12:15-17 the woman has "remaining ones of her seed", more offspring of the New Covenant who have a work to do on earth and who are in danger from the dragon.


Agreed. Well, perhaps not entirely, because I'm saying the "woman" is Israel, and her fleeing her equates to the fleeing of CHRISTIANS back in 66AD.

Nevertheless, here's a question for you. If this is really ALL stuff about the future, then has Satan not really been warring for the past 2,000 years? This is what I don't get. When Satan entered Judas to have Jesus put to death, that was a declaration of war.

Why would Jesus be resurrected, go to heaven 40 days later, and then... leave his archenemy in heaven for 2,000 years?

Given that you acknowledge a (minor) "great tribulation" in the 1st century, as foretold by Jesus... don't you wonder WHY there would be such a thing, even back then?

I'd suggest to you that it was PRECISELY because the first thing on Jesus' TO-DO list when he was resurrected to heaven.... "kick out Satan"!

Satan would have known he had a window of opportunity... namely, that after Messiah's death, the city and temple would be desolated (as per Daniel 9), because Jehovah's anger was going to blaze against that nation.

He had a short period of time in which to attempt to utterly destroy that seed, and I'm suggesting he used it, resulting in his being cast out of heaven during the "great tribulation" during 66-73AD.

That is WHY it was a "great tribulation". Not merely because the Romans came upon Jerusalem. Much, much more happened during that time... Nero burned the Christians in Rome, the Roman empire collapsed into civil war and nearly ended, the "year of the four emperors" (69AD) in which the last one had his heat cut off by the mob, Jews were slaughtered across the Empire, and then the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD... the war finally ending in 73AD with the capture of Masada, where the Zealots were hiding in the mountains.

(This 7 year period, divided into two 3 1/2 year periods the center of which saw the destruction of the Temple, is referred to in Daniel and Revelation.)

This was Satan's "window of opportunity". Why would he not (attempt to) take full advantage of it, and thus not get kicked out of heaven at the same time?

Quote:
Babylon the Great had its start from the time of the original promise of God at Genesis 3:15. It sprang directly from Satan and has always been corrupt.


Well, based on the above, I can't agree with your conclusions. Babylon The Great is a tool Satan uses, but mainly to direct and control the "wild beast" and its war with the holy ones.

If we wish to identify Babylon The Great, we must first correctly identify the "wild beast".

One thing that baffles me is why people are so keen to divorce John's prophecies from Daniel's. It's pretty clear that John's vision is BASED upon Daniel's. They are, after all, from the same Source.

The 4th kingdom of Daniel's prophecies (Daniel 7) was the Roman empire. It had ten horns. It superseded the "lion", "bear" and "leopard" kingdoms.

John's first beast looked like a "leopard", "bear" and "lion"... with ten horns. John is essentially TELLING US to go to Daniel chapter 7! He's cluing in his savvy Jewish and Christian readers, while leaving everyone else baffled.

Anyway, while we continue to debate its "future" meaning, I am grateful that this prophecy was incredibly useful to Christians over the past 2,000 years... the early ones being aware of the dangers from the Roman empire... and the later ones using it to flee from Papal Rome's control... thus allowing us the freedom to study our Bibles that we have today.

Perhaps this is partly why the prophecies are somewhat obscure. It has allowed Christians of all ages to interpret them according to their own needs.

Martin Luther would probably not kicked off the incredibly world-shaking Reformation (which caused more civil wars in Europe over the next 150 years), if he had merely identified Babylon the Great as "false religion" :D

Everyone would still be under compulsion to Rome, and God's mouthpiece there. They would still be taking the false mark (Rev 16:18), in imitation of the mark the Jews used (compare Exodus 16:18).

"Then also LATEINOS has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule" Against Heresies, by Irenæus.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-06-2011 10:32 PM

Hi COMankind

COMankind Wrote:
Interpretum:

Quote:
(1) Jerusalem was not destroyed.

there are many examples of people and cities being spiritually condemned and destroyed. Plus this is Revelation, so I think we can consider giving it poetic license. The temple was destroyed.


I can certainly understand what you're saying with "poetic license". However, I'd suggest that Revelation is even smarter than that. Very little of it is ORIGINAL, but most of it is actually alluding to Old Testament passages. In that sense, it is VERY clever... divinely so.

However, I suspect that all of the things said about Babylon The Great's destruction is to lead us to the conclusion that she is GONE... permanently, like her prototype, Babylon.

Quote:
(2) Jerusalem did not have a kingdom over the kings of the earth.


"Clap your hands, all you nations;
shout to God with cries of joy.
How awesome is the Lord Most High,
the great King over all the earth!
He subdued nations under us,
peoples under our feet.

He chose our inheritance for us,
the pride of Jacob, whom he loved. "
Psm 47:1-4
[/quote]

And certainly true, no doubt, when that psalm was composed. Between then and the time of Revelation, they lost their nation to Babylon, and became a vassal province of Rome. In other words, it didn't "have a kingdom over the kings of the earth" in John's day.

Quote:
I'd recommend not reading Revelation in the context of historical, statistical data - but instead through the lens of how the Jews would have perceived it. Israel, and ultimately Jerusalem, to them was indeed THE kingdom over all.


It doesn't matter. Revelation wasn't written for Jews, but for the seven CHRISTIAN congregations in Asia Minor. I can see how John might have written it in a kind of mocking way. However, the precedent set by the Old Testament is that, when these cities boasted of their power, they usually had some. Jerusalem had NO real power in the 1st century. Rome had plenty.

Quote:
I do follow you . I'd say this though....did you ever think why the New Testament is riddled with SO many accounts of demons being expelled?


Point taken.

Quote:
More poetic license, just like in Revelation. The woman (which is figurative) was always there...even before Genesis. Revelation says she becomes a harlot, then a new woman is introduced as a bride. But honestly - this is all a teaching aid for Jews that couldn't mentally process spiritual things - these Jews were looking at brick and mortar.


OK, I can see how the two women might be the same woman, with a different identity. Certainly there IS the wilderness link.

However, why NOT Rome? The ACTUAL city of the seven hills?

I do find it interesting, however, that Revelation is sufficiently ambiguous to allow one to conclude it is Jerusalem, or Rome (not to mention the myriad other interpretations in this thread).

I get the impression that this ambiguity suits the purpose of its Inspirer. It allows people of all ages to see their own meanings in it.

However, one thing I think favours our side of the argument (i.e. Jerusalem or Rome vs some modern day NWO construction or "false religion")... is that Revelation is an UNSEALED book.

It wasn't meant to be "hidden" and cryptic until some time 2,000 years from its being penned.

"Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near." (Rev 1:3)

"He also tells me: “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near." (Rev 22:10)

This is in CONTRAST to the sealed words of Daniel:

"Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end." (Dan 12:9)

This is pretty simple... yet lost on so many Christians.

To John's 1st century audience, they were to HEAR... and OBSERVE... because the appointed time was NEAR. Not so for Daniel.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - COMankind - 07-06-2011 11:24 PM

Quote:
Revelation wasn't written for Jews, but for the seven CHRISTIAN congregations in Asia Minor.


Jesus was a Jew. He referred to Jewish scripture. Christians read from Jewish scripture. John, who wrote Revelation, was a Jew. He did not convert from Jew to a new organized religion called Christianity, he simply grew in his understanding and enlightenment as a human being.

This is a common sticking point for Christians. Its not Jews OR Christians. The counterpart to Jews in the bible was Gentiles, not Christians. Jews + Gentiles = Christians i.e. Mankind.

Revelation is the culmination of everything they had all been taught, which was quite Jewish.

Quote:
I do find it interesting, however, that Revelation is sufficiently ambiguous to allow one to conclude it is Jerusalem, or Rome (not to mention the myriad other interpretations in this thread).

I get the impression that this ambiguity suits the purpose of its Inspirer. It allows people of all ages to see their own meanings in it.


Most certainly, and I would say that when we show love to others that try to teach or learn what it is saying, that we're ultimately putting first things first. Love over accuracy.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-06-2011 11:59 PM

Resolute Wrote:
What is seen happening in Revelation 12 is the birth of the kingdom. The male child is more than Christ Jesus because of what is written in Revelation 2:26-27.


Rez,

I am inclined to agree with this.

Revelation in my opinion is a book which reveals mysterious things written about previously in the bible.

The scripture which comes immediatelty to mind about the "male child" is in Isaiah Ch 66:

Isaiah 66:7-8
7 Before she began to come into labor pains she gave birth. Before birth pangs could come to her, she even gave deliverance to a male child. 8 Who has heard of a thing like this? Who has seen things like these? Will a land be brought forth with labor pains in one day? Or will a nation be born at one time? For Zion has come into labor pains as well as given birth to her sons.


If I back up a couple of verses I come to this very profound statement made by Isaiah:


Isaiah 66:5
5 Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.” 6 There is a sound of uproar out of the city, a sound out of the temple! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying what is deserved to his enemies.


Brothers excluded by reason of God's name!

Enemies in the temple?

From what I understand the Jews did not use God's name.

I believe that is still true even today amongst Jewish people.

In fact Jesus Christ had to teach God's name to his disciples.

So this is not describing the stone temple in Jerusalem.

It has to be the Christian Temple!

The Apostle Paul did say that enemies would be found inside the temple immediately before Jesus Christ returns.

These scriptures strongly imply that the "sons of zion" would be excluded, excommunicated, disfellowshipped.

What the Apostle Paul said while quoting Hosea comletely supports the implication described by Isaiah above:

Romans 9:26
26 and in the place where it was said to them, ‘YOU are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’

‘sons of the living God' = "sons of zion"

Perhaps this does not solve the mystery of the "male child" however, I believe it gets the timing in line with what we should expect from Christianity.

I do not think this is future.

I think it is happening now, in the present!

In fact I can even boldly say that it started happening in the year 2005.

I invite you to watch this video which explains why:





In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-07-2011 12:38 AM

Incidentally, if anyone is interested in the church fathers and early church viewpoints on the identity of Babylon The Great, here's an interesting link...

http://www.babylonforsaken.com/churchfathersprophecy.html

It seems the well-known ones, including Iranaeus, Tertullian, Augustine, Eusebius, Victorinus, Hippolytus, Jerome all recognized Babylon The Great to be a type for Rome.

Eusebius points out that Peter may have been using this code, in 1 Peter:

“And Peter makes mention of Mark in his first epistle which they say that he wrote in Rome itself, as is indicated by him, when he calls the city, by a figure, Babylon” – Church History Eusebius Book 2 Chapter 15.

This code was also used in Jewish writings post 70AD.

Also, the Essenes (of Dead Sea Scrolls fame) believed Chaldea (Babylon) of Habakkuk 1 to be the Romans.

So let's get this straight...

(1) The early Christian church believed "Babylon The Great" to be Rome,
(2) Some Jewish writings called Rome "Babylon" after 70AD
(3) The Dead Sea Scrolls allude to "Chaldea" as the Romans.

But who cares about all that, eh?


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-07-2011 01:47 AM

Good points Rez,

I agree with you about the stars they are a symbol for men not angels. However I have wondered if it is just showing the % of mankind that is mislead by the devil.
Adam also 'fell' just like the devil.
Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-07-2011 10:03 AM

So let me see, the suggestions so far have been the WT, Jerusalem and Rome. These are just little harlots, harlotettes. None of them have the worldwide span nor the longevity to be the mother of the harlots, so back to the drawing board.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-07-2011 11:17 AM

In my opinion Babylon the Great is the entity upon which the "fire which cannot be put out" is lit.

Revelation 18:9-10
9 “And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, 10 while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’


Revelation 19:3
3 And right away for the second time they said: “Praise Jah, YOU people! And the smoke from her goes on ascending forever and ever.”

We have to be told a second time?

Repetition for emphasis?

Is that so we don't miss a very significant clue!

What is this fire that never stops?

John the Baptist gave us some info about this:

Matthew 3:11-12
That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”


The "fire that cannot be put out" has everything to do with Jesus Christs baptism!

Consider this:

Luke 12:49-53
49 “I came to start a fire on the earth, and what more is there for me to wish if it has already been lighted? 50 Indeed, I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how I am being distressed until it is finished! 51 Do YOU imagine I came to give peace on the earth? No, indeed, I tell YOU, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against [her] mother, mother-in-law against [her] daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against [her] mother-in-law.”


It is all about Jesus Christs baptism!

Why is Jesus Christ distressed about his baptism?

But hey, I have written so many posts on the baptism that most forum members must be familiar with the issues.

If you are not familiar with the issues then I invite you to search the forum.


or read the book in my signature.


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-07-2011 12:31 PM

ablebodiedman Wrote:

Resolute Wrote:
But for a variety of reasons I've concluded that these stars are, in fact, those who once accepted Christ and who have proved unfaithful, having been deceived by Satan. They would also be part of the Serpent/Dragon's seed. They lose their heavenly standing.


Rez,

They were a part of "the woman" and proved unfaithful?

Sounds like the saints (kings) started to fornicate with a "harlot" instead.


In Christ

abe


Good grief, Abe....don't you read? The woman is God's arrangement and is not your "harlot" by any stretch of the imagination. The "stars" are those who were once in the New Covenant who have proved unfaithful. They were never part of "the woman" of Genesis. If you can't read through someone's post without major mental gymnastics I can't help you.

Why is it that I feel this thread has been hijacked by preterists and those who are promoting their blogs, books and videos.....

rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-07-2011 01:03 PM

Resolute Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:

Resolute Wrote:
But for a variety of reasons I've concluded that these stars are, in fact, those who once accepted Christ and who have proved unfaithful, having been deceived by Satan. They would also be part of the Serpent/Dragon's seed. They lose their heavenly standing.


Rez,

They were a part of "the woman" and proved unfaithful?

Sounds like the saints (kings) started to fornicate with a "harlot" instead.


In Christ

abe


Good grief, Abe....don't you read? The woman is God's arrangement and is not your "harlot" by any stretch of the imagination. The "stars" are those who were once in the New Covenant who have proved unfaithful. They were never part of "the woman" of Genesis. If you can't read through someone's post without major mental gymnastics I can't help you.

Why is it that I feel this thread has been hijacked by preterists and those who are promoting their blogs, books and videos.....

rez


rez,

I do have room to agree with you in regard to "God's arrangement".

I believe "the remnant" of the woman is indeed "God's arrangement".

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.

A discerning reader however, should realize that a "remnant" also suggests that some larger part of "the woman" is not; "observing the commandments of God and having the work of bearing witness to Jesus".

Remnant suggests that some small part of the woman continues to be "the woman".

What happened to the rest?

............... Harlot!


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - isomam - 07-07-2011 01:52 PM

abe, abe, abe. i realize that yours is a world of convoluted, twisted, and self-serving logic. notwithstanding, are you not able to even differentiate between THE WOMAN and THE SEED OF THE WOMAN for purposes of conversation ???

from your above post, the answer is apparently "no." -- that is so sad.




RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-07-2011 02:55 PM

isomam Wrote:

abe, abe, abe. i relize that yours is a world of convoluted, twisted, and self-serving logic. notwithstanding, are you not able to even differentiate between THE WOMAN and THE SEED OF THE WOMAN for purposes of conversation ???

from your above post, the answer is apparently "no." -- that is so sad.

Oh thank you, iso! I wrote and rewrote my reply and finally ditched it as being hopeless. You said it for me and all I need to add is a hearty AMEN!!!

love,
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-07-2011 03:38 PM

isomam Wrote:

abe, abe, abe. i relize that yours is a world of convoluted, twisted, and self-serving logic. notwithstanding, are you not able to even differentiate between THE WOMAN and THE SEED OF THE WOMAN for purposes of conversation ???

from your above post, the answer is apparently "no." -- that is so sad.



iso, iso, iso, I realize that your world is one which has been severely adjusted by what the watchtower has taught you in the past.

Notwithstanding, can you not see that the "evil slave" and the "faithful slave" all have one master, Jesus Christ.

Looks like RR144 gets it.

Check this thread out:

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=7775&page=2

So the woman is God's arrangement that gets "bruised in the heel".

How does that happen?

Rez, agrees there are unfaithful ones.

I agree with Rez!

In my opinion those unfaithful ones are the "bruised in the heel" part.

I realize that yours is a world of convoluted, twisted, and self-serving logic that Christianity is some wonderful thing guaranteed to make Christians pump eachother with sunshine since Jesus Christ instituted it however, the bible shows a very different story.

I understand why you are having trouble coming to terms with that after having been exposed to what the Watchtower indoctrinated almost all of us with.

I do however, want you to understand that all is not lost.

The woman does have a small remnant.

There will indeed be a happy ending.

After a painful birth:

The "man child"?

John 16:20-21
20 Most truly I say to YOU, YOU will weep and wail, but the world will rejoice; YOU will be grieved, but YOUR grief will be turned into joy. 21 A woman, when she is giving birth, has grief, because her hour has arrived; but when she has brought forth the young child, she remembers the tribulation no more because of the joy that a man has been born into the world.



Isaiah 66:7-8
7 Before she began to come into labor pains she gave birth. Before birth pangs could come to her, she even gave deliverance to a male child. 8 Who has heard of a thing like this? Who has seen things like these? Will a land be brought forth with labor pains in one day? Or will a nation be born at one time? For Zion has come into labor pains as well as given birth to her sons.


You won't hear of things like this from the Watchtower!


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-07-2011 03:43 PM

Resolute Wrote:

isomam Wrote:

abe, abe, abe. i relize that yours is a world of convoluted, twisted, and self-serving logic. notwithstanding, are you not able to even differentiate between THE WOMAN and THE SEED OF THE WOMAN for purposes of conversation ???

from your above post, the answer is apparently "no." -- that is so sad.

Oh thank you, iso! I wrote and rewrote my reply and finally ditched it as being hopeless. You said it for me and all I need to add is a hearty AMEN!!!

love,
rez


rez,

I don't understand why you would have difficulty answering my post which agrees with you.

iso wrote nothing helpfull at all in his post above except ridicule.

Did you have any logic or reason in your intended answer.

If so, it might have some value.

Try again.


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-07-2011 05:16 PM

Abe, what I was replying and decided to ditch was mean-sounding. I was so tired of trying to get through to you that all I wanted to do was to put you on hold. You've buried my thread in hopeless nonsense that is unanswerable.

You have nailed yourself into a self-made box and I can't help you while you're clinging to a delusion.

For some reason you're unable to hear what folks are trying to say to you. What's left to do? Iso said it all. I can't add a thing except AMEN!

Now will you please quit pooping on my thread and let others have a go at the subject? It's not all about you. Really!

rez-on-her-last-nerve

PS....you don't agree with me. I don't agree with you.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-07-2011 05:18 PM

can I jump in the fray now? I see a covelencense in thought here:

ablebodiedman Wrote:

Resolute Wrote:
But for a variety of reasons I've concluded that these stars are, in fact, those who once accepted Christ and who have proved unfaithful, having been deceived by Satan. They would also be part of the Serpent/Dragon's seed. They lose their heavenly standing.


Rez,

They were a part of "the woman" and proved unfaithful?

Sounds like the saints (kings) started to fornicate with a "harlot" instead.


In Christ

abe


I can see that the "Kings" are Christians (meaning anointeds), all of us, not just 144K, and that BTG has a Kingdom over the Kings in that , at this time we "kings" are not ruling, as Paul said, because a figurative 1/3 have been fornicating with BTG.
So who is BTG? More then just false religion, because BTG holds a Kingdom OVER the Kings. Is the WT prominent, yes, because she openly declares that she is the ("gateway to God", Babylon), the one and only,
"Gods visible Organization", and therefore usurps Christ!
But she is not all of BTG, only a puppet. Who controls her?
The Bilderberg holds a "kingdom" over the kings of the earth. They control the government's, the economy, the religions of the world.
The WT may have been Christianity's last chance as the "anti religion, religion", but it was doomed at the start, Russell, being a high ranking Mason, and being controlled by the "higher powers" at the time. The WT is a "front" for BTG, trying to suck in the last of the free thinking kings. It promotes a one World Government, just like the Bilderberg and the UN, but fools a lot of people by saying it's God's will. They still teach that in the "New system" THEY will be in charge! Their buildings will not be destroyed, THEY will be the center of operations. This is what the Bilderberg (meaning :"teacher on the Mount"), is itself promoting in many ways, including the UN, which is the WT's bedfellow.
They are the head of BTG, but will remain clandestine, allowing their fronts to do the visible work. Is she a "city" controling all peoples and languages? Think of the UN! There is no one city, but NYC is the hub.
The Twin Towers went down as planned, in order to destabilize the world economy, only to be rescued by the world bankers. Who could guess!
We are staring BTG in the face.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-07-2011 06:54 PM

Thanks for the input, e-magine. I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

My current thought is that BTG is like the long hairy legs on a spider, the spider being Satan. BTG is directly connected to Satan and is under his protection at present.

Right now, Satan is still in his heavenly position, being able to come and go from heavenly dimension to earthly dimension -- something like all the angels have been able to do down through history.

Revelation 12 is a huge turning point in the scheme of things. That is all about the birth of the Kingdom and the casting out of Satan. An interesting point in Greek is that the Devil is thrown "into" the earth, not "onto" the earth. The WT says he's thrown into the vicinity of the earth...like...into the neighborhood. Not!

What will make Satan "have great anger knowing he has a short period of time" is that he won't be able to travel between dimensions like he does now. He won't be able to escape the reality of his new situation.

I'm thinking, too, that he won't have his previous powers to the degree that he exercises them at present. Right now he's in control.

"And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and upon its horns ten diadems, but upon its heads blasphemous names. Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were as those of a bear, and its mouth was as a lion’s mouth. And the dragon gave to [the beast] its power and its throne and great authority." -- Revelation 13:1-2

"So he (the devil) brought him (Jesus) up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it. You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.” -- Luke 4:5-7

All through history Satan has been given permission to control the kingdoms of the earth -- the same ones that were offered to Jesus for one act of (idolatrous) worship.

BUT -- after Satan is cast out of his position he no longer has his former powers over the world's kingdoms, and, for that matter, over BTG who has been riding the beast. That's why Yahweh puts it into the hearts of those represented by the horns of the beast to destroy her. The vastly reduced power of Satan to hold onto his corrupting system allows this to happen.

"And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire. For God put [it] into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out [their] one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished. And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” -- Revelation 17:15-18

"And in this mountain he will certainly swallow up the face of the envelopment that is enveloping over all the peoples, and the woven work that is interwoven upon all the nations. He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it]." -- Isaiah 25:7-8

e-magine, you mentioned the Bilderberg group as controlling things from behind the scenes, using the UN as their tool for planet-wide control. Without the internet I'd never have heard of the Bilderbergs. Now it's possible to get lists of their names. It's freaky! But like Jesus said, there's nothing carefully concealed that won't be uncovered.

To see the WT become NGO in association with DPI in the UN is nauseating. But they are only one group doing so. They are probably duped and are given a chance to "get out of her my people". Do a search for 501c(3) churches. But it is the "mother" of the harlots who rides (controls) the beast. The daughters imitate the "mother's" behavior by becoming connected in some way to the beast. As James said at James 4:4:

"Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God."

Most of what we've looked at so far is visible to an extent. I'm thinking that the actual BTG is invisible to human eyes, much as is the Jerusalem above. Heavenly Jerusalem is only visible through eyes of faith. (Hebrews 12:22) Remember that Satan has his princes -- powerful angelic creatures that have dominion over the nations...for instance...the prince of the royal realm of Persia who was able to prevent Gabriel from coming to the assistance of Daniel for 3 weeks.

Without getting too deep into a discussion of these dark forces it's important to know of their existence and their rule-or-ruin policy. They don't care if we're all killed. Proverbs 14:28 tells us why.

"In the multitude of people there is an adornment of a king, but in the lack of population is the ruin of a high official."

If they cannot rule mankind they will ruin the earth for the rightful king. Jesus turned down Satan's offer of having control of the whole earth -- Satan's way. So because Jesus showed himself incorruptible the dark forces are determined to bring down all of humanity that would be subjects of the Kingdom. They won't win.

In conclusion, I believe that the entity Babylon the Great is a combination of heavenly and earthly forces and is the exact opposite of the city of heavenly Jerusalem.

The danger of relating her to an actual earthly city is that we may feel safe if we've gotten out of NY, London, the Vatican...or any other city on earth. There's more to it than that.

love,
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-07-2011 07:28 PM

Hi res!
I agree with that!
BTG is directly connected to Satan and is under his protection at present.

Right now, Satan is still in his heavenly position, being able to come and go from heavenly dimension to earthly dimension
All through history Satan has been given permission to control the kingdoms of the earth -- the same ones that were offered to Jesus for one act of (idolatrous) worship.
Most of what we've looked at so far is visible to an extent. I'm thinking that the actual BTG is invisible to human eyes, much as is the Jerusalem above.
In conclusion, I believe that the entity Babylon the Great is a combination of heavenly and earthly forces and is the exact opposite of the city of heavenly Jerusalem.

Can we say that BTG is Satan's counterfit Kingdom, made up of all his seeds?


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-07-2011 07:55 PM

e-magine Wrote:
Can we say that BTG is Satan's counterfit Kingdom, made up of all his seeds?


Yupper, bro! Heavenly and earthly offspring.....

Counterfeit is sometimes hard to detect. That's why I think it's so important to get it right....or, as near as possible under present circumstances.

Jesus' footsteps are the safest place to tread in this minefield that we live in.

cheers,
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-07-2011 11:41 PM

man hu Wrote:
So let me see, the suggestions so far have been the WT, Jerusalem and Rome. These are just little harlots, harlotettes. None of them have the worldwide span nor the longevity to be the mother of the harlots, so back to the drawing board.


Incorrect.

(1) Rome had worldwide scope back in John's day. "Now in those days a decree went forth from Caesar Augustus for all the inhabited earth to be registered." (Luke 3:1)

(2) Being the "mother of harlots" doesn't require longevity. Why would it? All it requires is time to give birth.

(Please explain why being a mother requires immense longevity. I was always under the assumption that birth took all of 9 months!)

So I would suggest to you that Rome go firmly back on the drawing board :)


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-07-2011 11:43 PM

Beau Wetini Wrote:
Yep - to be the MOTHER of something means to be the originator something.

Which means it has to go waaaaaaaay back!


So your own mother is thousands of years old? Why does being a mother equate to being ancient?

(You should check out the U.K... plenty of single mothers in their teens and 20's!... some of them with multiple kids. They certainly don't stretch back into antiquity, so why should Babylon The Great?)


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-08-2011 12:04 AM

Hi Rez

Resolute Wrote:
Good grief, Abe....don't you read? The woman is God's arrangement and is not your "harlot" by any stretch of the imagination. The "stars" are those who were once in the New Covenant who have proved unfaithful. They were never part of "the woman" of Genesis. If you can't read through someone's post without major mental gymnastics I can't help you.


Hang on there... what about also looking at the symbology used by, say... Daniel?

"...there proceeded to come up conspicuously four instead of it, toward the four winds of the heavens. And out of one of them there came forth another horn, a small one, and it kept getting very much greater toward the south and toward the sunrising and toward the Decoration. And it kept getting greater all the way to the army of the heavens, so that it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it went trampling them down..." (Daniel 8:8)

So this horn comes out of one of the four winds, from which Alexander's kingdom was broken and scattered to. This horn tramples the "stars". By the way... what kingdom came after the Greeks, in Daniel?

This kingdom, which... I'll give you a clue, begins with R... got greater towards the south, sunrising and the Decoration (Israel), when Pompey captured Israel in 63BC.

Quote:
Why is it that I feel this thread has been hijacked by preterists and those who are promoting their blogs, books and videos.....


So let me get this straight... anyone who doesn't agree with your interpretation is "hijacking" this thread?

How is believing (and proving) that Babylon The Great is Rome "Preterism"? Rome still exists today... it hasn't (yet) been thrown down like a millstone... so that's hardly Preterism!

OK... sorry, I sound a bit "snippy", I know. Sure, i'm opinionated on this subject, because I feel scripture is fairly clear on her identity, and the early Church had a pretty sound grasp of her identity as well.

However, you invited a DISCUSSION... so I'm merely expressing my strong opinion, oh... and supporting it with scripture... which I appreciate will be subject to different opinions and interpretations... that's life :)


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-08-2011 12:19 AM

Interpretum Wrote:

man hu Wrote:
So let me see, the suggestions so far have been the WT, Jerusalem and Rome. These are just little harlots, harlotettes. None of them have the worldwide span nor the longevity to be the mother of the harlots, so back to the drawing board.


Incorrect.

(1) Rome had worldwide scope back in John's day. "Now in those days a decree went forth from Caesar Augustus for all the inhabited earth to be registered." (Luke 3:1)

(2) Being the "mother of harlots" doesn't require longevity. Why would it? All it requires is time to give birth.

(Please explain why being a mother requires immense longevity. I was always under the assumption that birth took all of 9 months!)

So I would suggest to you that Rome go firmly back on the drawing board :)


There have been harlots down through history, the mother of them has to have been around that length of time to give birth to them.She is still around today as we have not seen the climactic ditching if her in the sea, with the revelation of who she and her minions are.
As the lone preterist you may want to believe everything was fulfilled in Rome, but most of us can see that much of Revelation has not even started. No casting out of Satan from heaven, no final battles and Satan is not abyssed.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-08-2011 12:26 AM

Hi e-magine

e-magine Wrote:
I can see that the "Kings" are Christians (meaning anointeds), all of us, not just 144K, and that BTG has a Kingdom over the Kings in that , at this time we "kings" are not ruling, as Paul said, because a figurative 1/3 have been fornicating with BTG.


The "third of the stars", is more of a reference to Daniel 8, in my opinion:

"And it kept getting greater all the way to the army of the heavens, so that it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it went trampling them down." (Dan 8:10)

This is a description of the 4th kingdom that emerges from the four winds, after the shattering of the Greek empire. That 4th kingdom was the Romans (which captured the land of Decoration prior to doing this).

How do we know it's referring to the Romans? Compare...

"And according to his insight he will also certainly cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart he will put on great airs, and during a freedom from care he will bring many to ruin... (Dan 8:25)

This same phrase is used during the reign of Tiberius Caesar, and his successor Caligula:

"And there must stand up in his position one who is to be despised, and they will certainly not set upon him the dignity of [the] kingdom; and he will actually come in during a freedom from care and take hold of [the] kingdom by means of smoothness. And as regards the arms of the flood, they will be flooded over on account of him, and they will be broken; as will also the Leader of [the] covenant. And because of their allying themselves with him he will carry on deception and actually come up and become mighty by means of a little nation."

Tiberius broke both Jesus Christ, the "Leader", and Sejanus, the head of the Praetorian guard (the "little nation" that would also put Caligula into power after Tiberius' death).

Quote:
The Bilderberg holds a "kingdom" over the kings of the earth. They control the government's, the economy, the religions of the world.


OK... but the Bilderberg group only came into existence in the 1950's. Who was puling THEIR strings?

Europe has a pretty ancient history of some powerful players and institutions. For example, the Habsburgs ruled both the Holy Roman Empire for much of its life, and also the Spanish Empire for a time... their dynasty only ending after World War I!

The Habsburgs were... Catholic. They were pretty loyal to the Pope.

I guess my only point here is... world domination goes back slighter earlier than the 1950's and the Bilderbergs... or even the Rothschilds, another name thrown out as the "boogeyman", despite the fact that they were languishing in Jewish ghettos prior to the 1800's.

Bilderbergs, Rothschilds, Rockerfellers... these are all LATE players to the game of RISK that has been playing out since John's day.

But anyway, all this still misses the point.

The question we need to ask is this.

Why, scripturally, is God angry with Babylon The Great?

It ain't just because they're rich and powerful. There's something else.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-08-2011 12:28 AM

e-magine Wrote:
Hi res!
I agree with that!
BTG is directly connected to Satan and is under his protection at present.

Right now, Satan is still in his heavenly position, being able to come and go from heavenly dimension to earthly dimension
All through history Satan has been given permission to control the kingdoms of the earth -- the same ones that were offered to Jesus for one act of (idolatrous) worship.
Most of what we've looked at so far is visible to an extent. I'm thinking that the actual BTG is invisible to human eyes, much as is the Jerusalem above.
In conclusion, I believe that the entity Babylon the Great is a combination of heavenly and earthly forces and is the exact opposite of the city of heavenly Jerusalem.

Can we say that BTG is Satan's counterfit Kingdom, made up of all his seeds?

I am sure that is right. There will be a future call to get out of her, because we cannot discern clearly what she is at the moment. She is still a mystery


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-08-2011 12:48 AM

Hi man hu

man hu Wrote:
There have been harlots down through history, the mother of them has to have been around that length of time to give birth to them.


Let me ask you... does Revelation say she is the mother of all harlots that ever lived?... or just "of harlots"?

Big difference. With the one, she is responsible for every harlot on earth. With the other, she just gives birth to harlots... i.e. her children are harlots.

If she were the "mother of twins", would that make her the mother of ALL twins who ever lived?

Can you see what I'm sayin'? ;)

Quote:
She is still around today as we have not seen the climactic ditching if her in the sea, with the revelation of who she and her minions are.


Agreed, at least about the climactic ditching. And Rome is still around today. And it still harbours God's mouthpiece, who declares himself to be your spiritual boss whether you like it or not... and just a few hundred years ago could have killed you for not accepting that.

So Rome is still a candidate.

Quote:
As the lone preterist you may want to believe everything was fulfilled in Rome, but most of us can see that much of Revelation has not even started. No casting out of Satan from heaven, no final battles and Satan is not abyssed.


Why is that people don't seem to read people's posts very clearly, when they aren't cheerleading in agreement?

I never said everything was fulfilled in Rome. Rome is still around, but that doesn't eliminate it from being Babylon The Great.

It could fall in the future.

Jehovah has simply waited to allow its sins to mass into heaven.

Besides, why do you and others here ignore Daniel 7? Who is the fourth beast, with the ten horns? Why is it THAT beast that is cast into the burning fire?

Why are there only FOUR kingdoms, before God's kingdom rules the world?

It's because God only recognizes four kingdoms that rule the world... the Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Greek and the Roman.

The Roman one has been ruling the world now for the past 2,000 years... simply in different guises.

Remember, in Daniel 7 the eleventh horn from the Roman power speaks great things, defeats three of its fellow horns, and wars with the holy ones.

This ain't Britain... or the Anglo-American world empire!

It's the fellow who sits in Rome, even now... and has done so for the best part of 1900 years, even boasting of his defeat of the 3 other Roman kingdoms in his triple crown... and who has warred with the holy ones for centuries!

Sheesh... this has got NOTHING to do with Preterism, and everything to do with simply following the developments of Daniel's prophecy.

The 4th kingdom of Daniel didn't end in 70AD.

It was just gettin' started!


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Beau Wetini - 07-08-2011 01:11 AM

Interpretum Wrote:

Beau Wetini Wrote:
Yep - to be the MOTHER of something means to be the originator something.

Which means it has to go waaaaaaaay back!


So your own mother is thousands of years old? Why does being a mother equate to being ancient?

(You should check out the U.K... plenty of single mothers in their teens and 20's!... some of them with multiple kids. They certainly don't stretch back into antiquity, so why should Babylon The Great?)


Hey Interpretum - how's it going mate?


Well, the language that is used suggests to me that Babylon is the mother of the [all] harlots, and the mother of the [all] abominations of the Earth.

The question for me, then becomes, were there any harlots around before Rome? And were there any abominations before Rome?

The answer seems to be yes.

The same questions can be applied to Jerusalem. And the answer is yes.


Your right, abeing a mother doesn't necessarily mean being ancient - but i would quote the scripture where Satan is said to be "the father of the lie".

Granted, the father is identified, along with the fact that he has been around for a long time - but the statement, "father of the lie" suggests that Satan was the originator of the lie.

Similarly, I see that with the statement of Babylon being the mother of the harlots and of the abominations of the earth. To be the mother of something, means to be the originator of what has been born.

And if the harlots and the abominations of the earth were born from Babylon - then I see no reason not to conclude that Babylon is an ancient identity.


Cheers mate! :D



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-08-2011 02:24 AM

I have not been able to read each post here but i what to say I agree with Beau. She started the same time Satan became the father of the lie.

What Eve did when she sinned was start or mother all the collective sin that ould be born after her and from her.

There was three main charactors in the garden of Eden they are also symboled in Revelation I feel.

Satan is the Dragon
Eve a type for Babylon the great
Adam is symboled by the Red colored Beast.

Adams name means `red`and his curse was to eat from the ground.

Gods plan is for the whole world and all people so I see her as a large group of people whom follow in Eves step listening to the devil and the beast is her muscle as it were the part of our collective that is the army,cops govt, etc.

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-08-2011 04:10 AM

digging Wrote:
I have not been able to read each post here but i what to say I agree with Beau. She started the same time Satan became the father of the lie.

What Eve did when she sinned was start or mother all the collective sin that ould be born after her and from her.

There was three main charactors in the garden of Eden they are also symboled in Revelation I feel.

Satan is the Dragon
Eve a type for Babylon the great
Adam is symboled by the Red colored Beast.

Adams name means `red`and his curse was to eat from the ground.

Gods plan is for the whole world and all people so I see her as a large group of people whom follow in Eves step listening to the devil and the beast is her muscle as it were the part of our collective that is the army,cops govt, etc.

Digging


Digging, I want to thank you and Beau for your insight as to the origins of BTG. Sorry that you haven't had a chance to read all the posts. Can I ask a favor? I'd love to get your thoughts on my #79 post because it touches on your comment. I'll re-post it here. My apologies to those who have already read it.:

Quote:
There seems to be some confusion between two women here. I'll try to explain what I see happening. Let's go back to the first book of the bible at Genesis 3:14, 15, because this is our starting point. The difference between God's woman and the Devil's counterfeit should be clear from the wording.

"And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: “Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” -- Genesis 3:14-15

There are four separate entities being spoken of here:

1. The Serpent
2. The Woman
3. The Serpent's seed
4. The Woman's seed


We find these same four entities in Revelation 12.

"And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, and she was pregnant. And she cries out in her pains and in her agony to give birth. And another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and upon its heads seven diadems; and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child." -- Revelation 12:1-4

1. The Woman
2. The Dragon
3. The Dragon's seed
4. The Woman's seed


Who or what is "The Woman" arrayed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet and having a crown of twelve stars?

Who or what is the Dragon who is preparing to devour the woman's child as soon as it's born -- if possible?

Who or what are the third of the stars?

Who or what is the male child that is caught away to God and his throne?

One at a time, they are:

The Woman and her seed:- a bit hard to define if you've been trained in the WT with its distorted doctrine. The WT says that the woman is God's heavenly organization of faithful angels and that her seed is Jesus whom the holy angels are said to bring forth from among themselves, seeing that they believe that Jesus is one of the angels.

Why do they say this? I believe the main scripture they use is Hebrews 12:22-24

"But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s [blood]."

I get a slightly different take on "the woman" because I also consider what Paul said at Galatians 4:21-26:

"Tell me, YOU who want to be under law, Do YOU not hear the Law? For example, it is written that Abraham acquired two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by the free woman through a promise. These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si′nai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha′gar. Now this Ha′gar means Si′nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother."

Paul had said earlier at Galatians 26-29:

"YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise."

Paul had said that the Jerusalem above means a covenant or promise that led to a covenant. He also said that the seed of this woman was Christ Jesus and all those who were baptized into Christ.

What is seen happening in Revelation 12 is the birth of the kingdom. The male child is more than Christ Jesus because of what is written in Revelation 2:26-27.

"And to him that conquers and observes my deeds down to the end I will give authority over the nations, and he shall shepherd the people with an iron rod so that they will be broken to pieces like clay vessels, the same as I have received from my Father."

The woman in Revelation 12:5,6 gives birth to a male child:

"And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days."

Why does this woman flee into the wilderness? She has a place prepared by God, "away from the face of the serpent" (Revelation 12:14) But why?

According to Revelation 12:15-17 the woman has "remaining ones of her seed", more offspring of the New Covenant who have a work to do on earth and who are in danger from the dragon.

"And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon disgorged from its mouth. And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus."

Remember, at Genesis 3:15 God promised to put enmity between "the woman" and "the serpent"? That enmity doesn't go away and we find evidence of this in the previously quoted scripture. The war is on. If the Dragon cannot get at the woman/covenant he will go after those remaining who are in the covenant. God makes sure that the covenant will survive so that others can come into it for three and a half years more.

The Dragon and his seed:-

The Dragon is easy-peasy because Revelation 12:9-10 tells us directly.

"So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."

Now, here is an interesting part. The scriptures speaks of the Dragon and his angels battling. It also says earlier that his tail drags a third of the stars. Some, including the WT, have concluded that these stars are the Dragon's angels. But for a variety of reasons I've concluded that these stars are, in fact, those who once accepted Christ and who have proved unfaithful, having been deceived by Satan. They would also be part of the Serpent/Dragon's seed. They lose their heavenly standing.

Babylon the Great had its start from the time of the original promise of God at Genesis 3:15. It sprang directly from Satan and has always been corrupt.

On the other hand "the woman" is from God -- it is his promise to us of a covenant and is as incorruptible as God himself.

The enmity between these two was there from the beginning and will remain until God's promises are completely fulfilled
.


It isn't easy to see the distinctions between all the players because so much has been kept hidden. The amazing thing for me is that from Genesis to Revelation it's "A Tale of Two Cities" -- these two cities are as fixed and unchanging as Jehovah and Satan.

The Woman, heavenly Jerusalem which is God's kingdom arrangement and the means for saving mankind.

Babylon the Great, Satan's counterfeit kingdom -- darkness masquerading as light with a rule or ruin policy.

Everything from Genesis to Revelation is a story of the enmity and rivalry between them. We even get to read of the final outcome. Yay!

take care all,
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-08-2011 11:06 AM

Interpretum Wrote:
The question we need to ask is this.

Why, scripturally, is God angry with Babylon The Great?

It ain't just because they're rich and powerful. There's something else.


Interpretum,

Good question!

If you read Revelation Chapter 18-19 she is burned with a fire that does not go out.

Which has everything to do with Jesus Christs baptism:

See post #90

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=7771&pid=92548#pid92548

If Babylon the Great has screwed around with Jesus Christs baptism then her sins have massed together clear up to heaven.

A transgression guaranteed to cause desolation.

The Unforgivable Sin.

Yep, God is angry.


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-08-2011 11:08 AM

YES. "The amazing thing for me is that from Genesis to Revelation it's "A Tale of Two Cities" "
...the Jerusalem above, and Babylon the Great below!
.ITPT, I can see Rome as fulfilling Danial, but can you accept that so much of actual history is but a symbolic dance of the ultimate future outcome of the spiritual and physical creation.
...His(story) is a novel, written for our benefit, to prepare us for our destiny.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - gogh - 07-08-2011 02:10 PM

re: "...to prepare us for our destiny."

"i'm your density"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8bRciuMLqQ

:cheer:


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-08-2011 02:22 PM

No No gogh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmuioXhzvN8&feature=related


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-09-2011 10:33 AM

Hey Beau

Quote:
Well, the language that is used suggests to me that Babylon is the mother of the [all] harlots, and the mother of the [all] abominations of the Earth.


OK, I can see why you might be led to reading it that way.

One thing we need to bear in mind, is that John (or rather, the Originator of the prophecy, Almighty God himself) is drawing from the language used by the ancient prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and others.

For example, consider what Isaiah said about ancient Babylon:

"And now hear this, you pleasure-given [woman], the one sitting in security, the one saying in her heart: “I am, and there is nobody else. I shall not sit as a widow, and I shall not know the loss of children.” But to you these two things will come suddenly, in one day: loss of children and widowhood. In their complete measure they must come upon you, for the abundance of your sorceries, for the full might of your spells—exceedingly."

Ancient Babylon was also a mother. In fact, Isaiah uses language very similar to John. Yet Babylon was a CITY.

Now, I'd like to offer you a thought. In Daniel's prophecies, they usually start off with Babylon as the head. Agreed?

In Daniel 2, Babylon (or rather, Nebuchadnezzar) is the head of gold, and in Daniel 7 Babylon is the lion with wings.

This kingdom gets superceded by the breasts and arms of silver... the Medo-Persian kingdom, also represented by the bear in Daniel 7. Now, what happens to Babylon? It is essentially ABSORBED into the Medo-Persian empire. Eventually, it is a mere province of the great Persian empire that spanned from India to Ethiopia.

Similarly, the Greek empire consumed the Persian, and then the Roman consumed the Greek.

In other words, something of the culture (and worship) from Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece is inherited by the Romans, the 4th kingdom.

Thus, the Roman world of John's day, had elements that did indeed stretch into antiquity, inherited from Babylon. For example, many of the Roman deities were just rebranded deities from the former empires.

So if we look at it from Jehovah's point of view, Rome would have been the EMBODIMENT of the spirit of ancient Babylon, with its pantheons of gods, and its bloodlust for conquest.

Let me ask you... if you lived in John's day and wanted to disguise Rome in prophecy, what code would you use?

Here are the facts at your disposal...

- Rome ruled the world, like Babylon ruled the ancient world
- Rome was head of the Roman empire
- Rome was known as "the city of the seven hills"
- Rome was the home to all the pagan gods stretching into antiquity
- Rome would destroy Jerusalem and the Temple, like ancient Babylon
- Rome would shed tons of Christian blood

OK... I was leading you just a little bit there :) ... but don't you think "Babylon The Great" would be an ideal code for Rome?

This is what the church historian Eusebius thought.

"She who is in Babylon, a chosen one like [YOU], sends YOU her greetings, and so does Mark my son." (1 Peter 5:13)

"And Peter makes mention of Mark in his first epistle which they say that he wrote in Rome itself, as is indicated by him, when he calls the city, by a figure, Babylon” – Church History, Eusebius, Book 2 Chapter 15.

Of course, Eusebius could be wrong, but as a church historian, he was simply expressing the view that the early church generally recognized "Babylon The Great" as a codeword for Rome.

It was fairly common knowledge among the church fathers that the Roman empire would have to be split into ten kingdoms, before the "small horn" could arise. They equated that with the second wild beast of Revelation.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-09-2011 10:44 AM

Hi Rez

Resolute Wrote:
It isn't easy to see the distinctions between all the players because so much has been kept hidden. The amazing thing for me is that from Genesis to Revelation it's "A Tale of Two Cities" -- these two cities are as fixed and unchanging as Jehovah and Satan.

The Woman, heavenly Jerusalem which is God's kingdom arrangement and the means for saving mankind.

Babylon the Great, Satan's counterfeit kingdom -- darkness masquerading as light with a rule or ruin policy.

Everything from Genesis to Revelation is a story of the enmity and rivalry between them. We even get to read of the final outcome. Yay!


OK... but here's a question for you, based on your above thought.

We know that for over 1,000 years God's city was EMBODIED in an actual city... Jerusalem. Even in Jesus' day and the Sermon On The Mount, Jerusalem was described as "the city of the great King". (Mat 5:35) Agreed?

Now, in John's day, could Satan's "city" been EMBODIED in an actual city? Isn't Satan a mimick of Jehovah?

If Jehovah did it (i.e. embody his arrangement in an earthly city), why wouldn't Satan?

It seems Peter even wrote from there!

"She who is in Babylon, a chosen one like [YOU], sends YOU her greetings, and so does Mark my son." (1 Peter 5:1-14)

Incidentally, this couldn't have been literal Babylon. A plague had driven the Jews out of Babylonia before this letter was written.

Mark was also Paul's assistant... who was in prison in a certain city which might be familiar to you.

It seems this codeword was already being used prior to the writing of Revelation! And I don't think Peter meant the Bilderbergs ;)


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-09-2011 11:10 AM

Hi e

e-magine Wrote:
YES. "The amazing thing for me is that from Genesis to Revelation it's "A Tale of Two Cities" "
...the Jerusalem above, and Babylon the Great below!
.ITPT, I can see Rome as fulfilling Danial, but can you accept that so much of actual history is but a symbolic dance of the ultimate future outcome of the spiritual and physical creation.
...His(story) is a novel, written for our benefit, to prepare us for our destiny.


Well... umm.... yeah...

...but that kinda skirts the issue.

Sure, it's ultimately all SPIRITUAL warfare, but it's played out here on earth in the form of PHYSICAL kingdoms, especially from Satan's point of view.

For example, the wild beast doesn't just have theological debates with Christians.

"And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.... If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones." (Rev 13:7-10)

In other words, it doesn't play nice. It KILLS them. Same is true of the second wild beast...

"And there was granted it to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who would not in any way worship the image of the wild beast. (Rev 13:15)

Now, for me... I can rejoice in that these entities have both been largely defeated by the Spirit and Christ's mouth, so that the once proud Rome, along with the Papacy that once had the power to put to death true Christians, has largely been relegated to a corner of Rome.

In other words, I can rejoice in that the "dance" of history also demonstrates the true predictive power of prophecy, and God's ultimate power in that He both predicted these things, and promised to finally defeat them through Christ's own mouth.

You, as a Futurist, have all this lovely stuff still to come! Worshipping the dragon and beast... misled by a false prophet... forced to accept a mark... oh, happy days!

Of course, I don't want to be lulled into a false sense of complacency, knowing these things have largely come and gone, because there's nothing to say the "false prophet" won't have one last-ditched attempt. He IS present at Armageddon, after all.

However, what I get annoyed about is how people say, "It's all a mystery until God reveals it to us".

Revelation is an UNSEALED book. Just as Jesus TOLD John the mystery of the seven lampstands in his right hand... "seven lampstands MEAN seven congregations".... Jesus has ALREADY revealed to us the identity of "Babylon The Great".

"And the woman whom you saw MEANS the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” (Rev 17:18)

This is the interpretation. We don't wonder when Jesus says "seven congregations"... ah, but what does he REALLY mean? lol

The angel tells us that the woman is a CITY... not a conspiratorial collection of men... not a "spiritual city"... not a collection of religions... an actual urban conglomeration of buildings and people, commonly called a CITY.

You guys are welcome to make Revelation more complicated than it is, but it makes so much sense when we see BTG as a CITY, ruling over an EMPIRE (the beast).

Otherwise, God has done a "bait and switch". You're saying that the "ten horns" in Daniel are kingdoms from Rome... but that God has changed them to mean something completely different in Revelation?

Isn't it more likely that... given both Daniel and Revelation are inspired by the same Source... the imagery would be consistent?

In which case, an amazing picture emerges.

The "ten horns" are ten kingdoms that are part of the Roman empire, but that later gain independence from Rome. An eleventh horn springs up amongst them... the Papal kingdom... defeats three of the former kingdoms... and then goes on to war with the saints... until finally the ten kings get tired of her, and start to eat up her fleshy parts.

This is EXACTLY what has happened... only the final part is missing... her complete burning with fire.

I guess Jehovah is saving that for the final battle of Har-Magedon.

This is elegant, gives us a shining insight into the past and a wonderful glimpse into the future, and is in complete harmony with Daniel and Revelation...

...so for that reason, I expect it to be completely rejected ;)


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-09-2011 11:28 AM

NO, not rejected at all ITPT! I appreciate your point of view, and have allowed it to modify my understanding. I guess what I'm thinking is that all the historical events that have fulfilled prophecy, are like a preview of the grand finally, where it will all be played out in a short period of time, the great tribulation period of time. I may be wrong.

... I like the idea that Revelation was not written just for end time Christians.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-09-2011 11:49 AM

...Also, if we take BTG as a real CITY, we need to ask, who or what organization within the city boundaries make up the movers and shakers that are actualy fulfilling the prophecy. Right? When those people die, is the prophecy done, or is it ongoing with more people fulfilling the role?
So, if Rome was the city during the first millenium, is it the city today, or has another city taken Rome's place? Is the wild beast and its image, and the people and demons who are those beasts, a short lived one time event, or ongoing until the end?


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Jan Kosonen - 07-09-2011 12:30 PM

Hi again after a work week,
I've looked for more facts revealing who is todays Babylon the Great.
I found videos presenting other peoples research on this topic. Interesting facts are for example that the worlds first gay parade was in New York. And this abomination has then spread to other cities of the world.
Also interesting that Manhattan has 7 hills fitting Rev 17:9 The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. The 7 hills are Carnegie Hill, Lenox Hill, Marble Hill, Murray Hill, Rose Hill, San Juan Hill, Sugar Hill. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Hill (Here is a list of Manhattans neighborhoods and among them the 7 hills)
Well check Wikipedia and you'll find more facts about New York that fit the description of the great rich city corrupting the world.
I've also been thinking about what it means to leave this city and where to go if you live in New York. Well it is just to go away from New York to what ever other place. Because Rev 17:16 says: And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.
Many people are awakening to the fact that the economic proplems of the world are caused by the finace-banking elite. And the New York is the most important financial center. So the 10 kings should just get rid of the influence of New York and take their money and destroy them so that it can't come back.

But a good question is, in what time will Babylon the Great be destroyed? Is it in the end of 42 month reign of the beast or sometime within that time? I'm not sure, but it seems to be in the end. But for the safety's sake I would recommend to leave New York as quick as possible.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-09-2011 02:04 PM

Hi Jan!!
I think its safe to say that in NYC, more decisions are made that effect the world then in any other city. But I can't "see" That getting out of any city is the meaning of "get out of her my people".
However, I would not want to live in that city!
Across the river is OK!

Very interesting about the 7 hills!


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Jan Kosonen - 07-09-2011 02:52 PM

e-magine Wrote:
Hi Jan!!
I think its safe to say that in NYC, more decisions are made that effect the world then in any other city. But I can't "see" That getting out of any city is the meaning of "get out of her my people".
However, I would not want to live in that city!
Across the river is OK!

Very interesting about the 7 hills!


Hi e-magine! Nice that you liked my comment, well I have also pondered about "get out of her my people". Well if we still believe that Jehovah's witnesses are God's people, then this verse of the Revelation is very fitting, because there is the headquarters of Jehovah's witnesses and propably a large number of witnesses in New York. And as I believe that also jews are still regarded to be God's people. And this fits to New York well too because there are about 2 million jews in the New York metropolitan area.
New York seems to be a new Babylon where jews are, instead of being in their home land. Interesting coincides, is it not? So the only explanation I can come with is that New York is Babylon the Great, which does not expect its sudden destruction.
(I googled on jews in New York and found again at Wikipedia interesting numbers of the population)


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-09-2011 06:42 PM

Hello Rez!

I plan on sending you a longer post on Sunday since that is the one day I try to give myself time to think more about the bible! I read over your post and you have made some good points.

The one main thing I think can mix us up about the seed of the woman and Satan......When God is talking to her he is speaking about the righteous seed in contrast to the unrighteous that comes from fellowship with the devil.

So at the start Eve has been the symbol for *both* woman. Before she sinned she was like the bride of Christ and after she sinned like Babylon the Great....

I wish to talk more about this on Sunday a few more details...

Now fellows as for this point you are seeing regards her being a real city.....Yes BUT you need to think much bigger.....the whole global network of cities = one huge mega city.
However the cities are more like the jewellery of her....all the outward constructions of our built enviornment that we use to organize ourselves to live in opposition to Gods will and kingdom values.

Well talk to all later.

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-10-2011 11:06 AM

Hi e

e-magine Wrote:
...Also, if we take BTG as a real CITY, we need to ask, who or what organization within the city boundaries make up the movers and shakers that are actualy fulfilling the prophecy. Right? When those people die, is the prophecy done, or is it ongoing with more people fulfilling the role?
So, if Rome was the city during the first millenium, is it the city today, or has another city taken Rome's place? Is the wild beast and its image, and the people and demons who are those beasts, a short lived one time event, or ongoing until the end?


Yes, this is an excellent question, and it's one that I frequently ponder.

I don't think her identity actually changes over time. That would be like having "the dragon" morph into something else, like China (with the dragon as its national symbol)... despite being told what the dragon is, i.e. Satan.

However, I do think the prophecy has been written sufficiently ambiguously, that it has resulted in Christians throughout the ages responding DIFFERENTLY to it.

For example, the early Christians during the height of the Roman empire would have probably seen it as a source of COMFORT... that the oppressive city that was in control of their persecution would one day be punished by God!

And while Rome fell in 476AD, which I suppose some would have seen as the fulfillment of Revelation 17,18... the city wasn't sunk forever like a millstone. There was then a period of time when scripture became more obscure, as fewer people could read Latin.

Only with the invention of the printing press some 1,000 years later, and the translation of the Bible into the tongue of the common people by brave figures such as Luther and Tyndale, did Revelation even begin to play a part in people's lives again.

After Rome fell out with Luther, he started to identify Babylon The Great with Rome, and in particular with the power of the ROMAN Catholic (Universal) Church.. and that triggered the Reformation, which still amazes me how much damage it did to the Church.

Whole provinces and countries broke away from the power of the Church, churches were destroyed, icons of the Church were smashed. Unfortunately, tens of thousands of Catholics and Protestants were slaughtered as well.

All because they took Revelation 18 to heart: "Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double." (Rev 18:6)

Now, the reason I don't believe ANOTHER "Rome" has taken its place, is because... in my opinion... these things have taken place in fulfillment of the prophecies.

For example: "And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire."

I suppose we expect this to happen instantly. However, it seems that God is more patient than we would ever be, and this has taken place over TIME.

Notice it says... DESOLATE AND NAKED... DEVOUR HER FLESH... BURN HER WITH FIRE.

This implies there are stages to her destruction... a DESOLATION stage, a DEVOURING stage and then the final BURNING stage which happens instantly, in "one hour" as it were.

I see the "dance" of history as doing that to the great city Rome, and in particular to the spiritual and physical power she had.

Besides, here's a question for you.

At Har-Mageddon and the final battle, we see the "false prophet" present.

"And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived..." (Rev 19:20)

I know some Christians are expecting an end-times Antichrist to appear and mislead the world. However, I think that is highly unlikely. Most religious people are so steeped in their own TRADITIONS that they're more likely to STONE such a figure, than follow him into a world war!

On the other hand... over a BILLION people even now follow the Pope, in Rome! They look to him as their spiritual guide.

Let's get hypothetical for a moment. If the Pope were to call for a world CRUSADE tomorrow... and I don't just mean a "spiritual" crusade... I mean a real, physical crusade to, let's say, counter the Jihadists who "threaten the security of the West" or some such gumpf... do you think Catholics would just ignore him?

One BILLION Catholics look to the Pope as their spiritual leader, and essentially the equivalent of Christ on earth.

Think about that fact. Ponder it. Sleep on it. :)

Har-Magedon is a war in which all the nations are gathered together.

Why? It can't be because of their belief in the imminent return of Christ, because most Christians (Catholics included) as well as Muslims (who actually believe in the return of Jesus!) would WELCOME that!

OK, I'm going off tangent now... so I'll just sum up my answer to your question.

I don't think her IDENTITY has changed... simply how Christians have responded to Revelation's call, throughout the centuries.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-10-2011 11:33 AM

Hi Jan

I know that the "Babylon is New York" idea is popular among some Christians.

In Revelation, Babylon The Great needs to be sunk before the marriage of the Lamb can begin. Why? Because she also represents a kind of FALSE BRIDE... not directly stated in the passage, but that is the implication, given that when she goes, the TRUE bride is ready.

New York has never claimed to have any connection with God. It has never knowingly slaughtered holy ones, prophets or apostles. It does not sit on a beast full of blasphemous names on its heads.

ROME, on the other hand...

Scores on every single point. It even got a couple of apostles... Peter and Paul!

Why would God need to throw down ROME, before the true bride is revealed?

Any guesses?




RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - isomam - 07-10-2011 01:46 PM

but ya gotta love the guy's pointy hat, doncha? :whistle:


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-10-2011 03:52 PM

isomam Wrote:
but ya gotta love the guy's pointy hat, doncha? :whistle:


Yeah... they love their hats :)

Incidentally, does anyone know WHY the Pope wears this particular pointy hat?

It's not a rhetorical question... I genuinely don't know the answer. I know that some people link it to the fish god Dagon... but what's the Catholic spin on the Pope's two-horned pointy hat?


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-10-2011 03:54 PM

Good Day everyone!

Well Rez I want to say I agree with your style or method of reasoning on this topic!

I wish to add that at the start since there was only three of them everything was very SIMPLE but as the human polulation has grown so has the complexity, more and more people being added into this great drama. Like a great weed with roots going in every direction intwined with other roots.

First I wish to add I agree with your point about the stars being symbols of men rather than angels. God gave us the ability to be spiritually minded to let our light shine. When someones foot turns from the path they are like a fallen star.

The account in Ezekiel 28:13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God ; Every precious stone was your covering : The ruby, the topaz and the diamond ; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper ; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald ; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. Look how simular this is to the new city in Revelation!

Read the whole account and think "Adam" rather than Satan....

Now I wish to share a couple more small points about Eve, notice she did not receive her name until after they had sinned? "Now the man called his wife Eve, because she was the *mother* of all the living. Everyone is now *born* a sinner
we are born under the sin of Adam and Eve. We are born as part of her, Babylon...the fallen human race....
A name was written, a mystery, Babylon the Great, the *Mother* of the Harlots......
Here is another clue

Revelation 18:14 And the *fruit* you *long* for has gone from you,......

Genesis 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was *desirable* .....she took from its *fruit* and ate.

So what I\m trying to say is that the whole race of mankind is simply divided in two, right from the start. Adam and Eve started out in good relation with God and then fell. He was like the first Christ and She the Bride of Christ, but they BOTH fell he became the *Beast* she became the *Harlot.*

Everyone else has been born in the city of sin and must find thier way *out of her* by becoming a child of God through the adoption.

James1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin ; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death
(Eve, Babylon the Great, Mother of Sin)
But really what she did we might have done if we had been in her place....so it's something deeper than just a single person but rather our heart and how it responds to the flesh and all temptation.

Thus enters the two seeds.

Remember how a seed is small and when it first begins to grow there is one clear small stem and two little leaves....however with time this one plant could grow and become very invasive & far reaching, mixed into the whole garden. Recall how Jesus gave the story of the field with the good wheat and the weeds growing together and being very hard to tell apart. So with these two seeds of Satan and the Woman.

I wish to add a comment about Genesis 3:16
To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children ; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

I believe he is speaking to the *bride of Christ* in this vs

Recall in Rev the woman giving birth...Also what Jesus said in John 16:20
20"Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice ; you will grieve, but your grief will be turned into joy.21"Whenever a woman is in labor she has pain, because her hour has come ; but when she gives birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy that a child has been born into the world.

He is linking his death and resurrection to this vs in Genesis and the birth of the power of Gods kingdom with his resurrection.

Thus the remaining part of Gen 3:16 Your *desire* shall be for your husband, (Jesus) and he shall rule ( kingdom,reign) over you.

Do we not a long for Christ to come with all our heart.

Ok to sum up what Im trying to say......

Eve was spiritually immoral with Satan and became the first member of Babylon the Great. She became his *harlot bride* and with Adams(beast) help has since been trying to created a living arrangement on earth apart from Gods will, thus the first city in Genesis built in opposition to God, people organized and working together against Gods will = the seed of the devil.
Jesus was kill in an organized Roman civilization that had it's power over people by an army and it's leaders driven by greed. Thus the seed of the devil as pointed to in Genesis who attacked Jesus.

The seed of *the woman* is the segment of mankind drawn back to God, who *long* for Gods rule to live in harmony with him in his garden. They are the firstfruits, bride of Christ, the new city etc.

The fact that her first two sons were one righteous and the other wicked also is pointing to this divid that began in the Garden. Phyically born from Eve was a son for Gods kingdom and one against.

Well this is a very long post for me so I will stop now!

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-10-2011 05:42 PM

Hi Digging

This is an interesting perspective.

So does that make JWs right, in the sense that most of "the world" are going to be destroyed, and only a small number of people (i.e. "the bride of Christ") survive Har-Magedon?

After all... if mankind is ONLY divided into two camps... the seed of the serpent, and the seed of the woman... it sounds like, unless there is a mass conversion, most of the people in the world are doomed to die at Har-Magedon when Babylon The Great falls.

Am I right to conclude this?


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Willa - 07-10-2011 07:36 PM

Does the pope wear a silly hat? Yes! The Dagon references are pretty compelling, actually...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre

http://divineblessings.wordpress.com/.../does-the-pope-wear-a-jewish-hat/

http://christendomsfolly.xanga.com/672317815/item/


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-10-2011 07:37 PM

As I understand it the time since the garden event until Christs return only the 'firstfruits' of mankind have been 'gathered' or noted by God to be remember in the first resurrection.( Abel being the first person noted as being part of this single group of righteous ones) Yes many, many more people may die in the days and years to come as this man made systems fails, but I don't see this as God's final condemnation. They will be resurrected like all the millions whom died before them.

As I see it the purpose of this group of righteous ones is mentioned in Revelation 22:17 "And the Spirit and the bride say "Come" And let the one who hears say "Come" And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost."

Remember back to Eve and how she gave the fruit to Adam and God said to him because you have *listened* to voice of your wife...

In the future during Christ reign each person will be given the opportunity to *hear* and choose whose *voice* they will listen too.

The Bride of Christs voice with the spirit calling them to come to God or the voice of their own selfish heart...

The opposite to what happened in the Garden of Eden.

The purpose of the Bride with Christ will be to help mankind find their way back to God the source of life.

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Totaldismay - 07-10-2011 08:16 PM

I heard that early on in christianity that they were rounding up christian "elder" preists not really sure, but the point was to execute them. so in order to hide they put on the caps that bakers used.

and this symbol turned into many incarnations and we now have that funny hat.


Have no idea to the amount of truth in that story.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-10-2011 09:33 PM

Here is another clue as to who Babylon is, and when:


1Pe 5:12 Through Silvanus, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written this short letter to encourage you and to testify that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it!
1Pe 5:13 Your sister church in Babylon, chosen along with you, sends you greetings, as does my son Mark.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-11-2011 08:44 PM

Seraphim Wrote:
Here is another clue as to who Babylon is, and when:

1Pe 5:12 Through Silvanus, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written this short letter to encourage you and to testify that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it!
1Pe 5:13 Your sister church in Babylon, chosen along with you, sends you greetings, as does my son Mark.


I've quoted this scripture at least twice now, on this thread... but I always welcome it being pointed out again!

Here is church historian Eusebius' understanding of this verse:

"And Peter makes mention of Mark in his first epistle which they say that he wrote in Rome itself, as is indicated by him, when he calls the city, by a figure, Babylon” – Church History, Eusebius, Book 2 Chapter 15

It is highly unlikely that Peter was in literal Babylon, since a plague had driven out most of the Jews from Babylonia around this time, or a little earlier, and Peter's primary mission was to the Jews in the Diaspora (the dispersion).

So Peter was probably either cryptically referring to Jerusalem, or Rome.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-11-2011 09:00 PM

Indeed probably a bit of both. Tradition has it that Peter was crucified in Rome not long after 1 Peter was written. So the killer of the prophets is a bit of both, but Jerusalem being more culpable because it was of Gods people that started the whole persecution of Christians in the first place.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-12-2011 09:17 AM

As a very plain talking person, I find it highly unlikely that Peter was reverting to euphemisms, calling Rome, Babylon. Just not his style! And why? It sounds more like a Roman Catholic add on.

I would always take the word of the Bible over the dubious words of third and fourth century self appointed bishops.

Peter apparently made extensive missionary journeys taking his wife with him (1: Cor. 9:5).

During their travels in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, Peter and his wife remained in the east, never entering Rome.

Paul in his letter salutes 27 persons, never mentioning Peter (Romans 16).

It would seem that Paul did not send him greetings simply because Peter neither was there nor ever had been.

Had Peter been in Rome, the omission would have been a gross insult.

Rom. 1:14-16 shows that Paul felt it was his commission to preach to the Romans. Rom. 15:20,21 shows Paul's desire to witness to Rome, where Jesus had had not been preached, he "did not want to build on another man's foundation".
This would not make sense had Peter been there at the time, or had he ever spent a number of years there.

Paul never mentioned Peter while he was under Roman imprisonment during which he wrote four letters - Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon - nor shortly before his death, when he wrote his final letter to young Timothy. In his letters he mentioned many fellow Christians who were in Rome, but he stated clearly in 2 Tim. 4:11 that only Luke was with him.

Ergo I don't think the Bible supports that Peter was ever in Rome, but was witnessing to the Jews in Babylon, as witnessing to the Jewish community seems to have been his commission.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-12-2011 10:40 AM

man hu Wrote:
As a very plain talking person, I find it highly unlikely that Peter was reverting to euphemisms, calling Rome, Babylon....
Ergo I don't think the Bible supports that Peter was ever in Rome, but was witnessing to the Jews in Babylon, as witnessing to the Jewish community seems to have been his commission.


Cogent reasoning here, V.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-12-2011 12:19 PM

man hu Wrote:
As a very plain talking person, I find it highly unlikely that Peter was reverting to euphemisms, calling Rome, Babylon. Just not his style! And why? It sounds more like a Roman Catholic add on.

I would always take the word of the Bible over the dubious words of third and fourth century self appointed bishops.

Peter apparently made extensive missionary journeys taking his wife with him (1: Cor. 9:5).

During their travels in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, Peter and his wife remained in the east, never entering Rome.

Paul in his letter salutes 27 persons, never mentioning Peter (Romans 16).

It would seem that Paul did not send him greetings simply because Peter neither was there nor ever had been.

Had Peter been in Rome, the omission would have been a gross insult.

Rom. 1:14-16 shows that Paul felt it was his commission to preach to the Romans. Rom. 15:20,21 shows Paul's desire to witness to Rome, where Jesus had had not been preached, he "did not want to build on another man's foundation".
This would not make sense had Peter been there at the time, or had he ever spent a number of years there.

Paul never mentioned Peter while he was under Roman imprisonment during which he wrote four letters - Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon - nor shortly before his death, when he wrote his final letter to young Timothy. In his letters he mentioned many fellow Christians who were in Rome, but he stated clearly in 2 Tim. 4:11 that only Luke was with him.

Ergo I don't think the Bible supports that Peter was ever in Rome, but was witnessing to the Jews in Babylon, as witnessing to the Jewish community seems to have been his commission.


I agree, I think Jerusalem is more primarily what he was referring to in 1 Peter. Of course the Romans sacked the temple as Babylon did before it. So I don't think Rome can be completely removed from what is meant by Babylon. There are to many other parallels between original Babylon and Rome to ignore. So 1Pe 5:13 probably refers in its use of the term `Babylon` to a kind of combination of Jewish/Roman influence. At the very least 1Pe 5:13 supports the view that Babylon was a first century entity and therefore may not even exist today. That`s my view of course. Organised religion is not Babylon. For one thing Christians who don't organise are much more likely to be, over time, subsumed into other religious views and culture. The very thing Rome and original Babylon wanted to impose.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-12-2011 05:15 PM

Seraphim Wrote:
Organised religion is not Babylon. For one thing Christians who don't organise are much more likely to be, over time, subsumed into other religious views and culture. The very thing Rome and original Babylon wanted to impose.


Agreed that Organized religion is not BTG, but one of the fronts for the great city. when the religions are reorganized into one world religion, the great "City" will have the blessing of God!
LOL!


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-12-2011 06:00 PM

Well yes some think that's gonna happen don't they! Personally I think that's fantasy.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-13-2011 08:21 AM

Hi man hu

Some good points there, I'll acknowledge.

I'd ask you to consider some counterarguments.

Quote:
As a very plain talking person, I find it highly unlikely that Peter was reverting to euphemisms, calling Rome, Babylon. Just not his style! And why? It sounds more like a Roman Catholic add on.


This is also the same reason why people don't think the apostle John wrote Revelation. "Wild beasts, harlots, seven heads, five have fallen"? That's not the apostle John's simple "God is love" style. Compare Revelation to 1 John, for example... two completely different styles!

Do you believe that's a good enough reason to say the apostle John didn't write Revelation, because it's not his style? If not, I'm sure Peter is capable of shifting "out of style" on occasion. In fact, Peter's letters are full of allegories and symbolism... Christians being "living stones" drawn to "a living stone", "one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years", the heavens passing away with a hissing noise, etc.

Quote:
Rom. 1:14-16 shows that Paul felt it was his commission to preach to the Romans. Rom. 15:20,21 shows Paul's desire to witness to Rome, where Jesus had had not been preached, he "did not want to build on another man's foundation".
This would not make sense had Peter been there at the time, or had he ever spent a number of years there.


OK, but are you suggesting that Paul founded the Roman church? There is no actual evidence of that in Acts, which records Paul's missionary journeys. In fact, Paul meets Priscilla and Aquila from Italy (Acts 18:1,2) who already appear to be Christian, and they later host a Roman congregation in their house. (Romans 16:3-5)

It does not appear that Paul founded the congregation in Rome, so who did? Now, watch this... note where Aquila had come from...

"And he [Paul] found a certain Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus who had recently come from Italy, and Priscilla his wife, because of the fact that Claudius had ordered all the Jews to depart from Rome." (Acts 18:1,2)

Now, who did Peter write to? "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia..." (1 Peter 1:1)

So if Paul did not convert Aquila the Italian... who did? Aquila was a former resident of Pontus... Peter wrote to those in Pontus... hmmm.

Quote:
Paul in his letter salutes 27 persons, never mentioning Peter (Romans 16).

It would seem that Paul did not send him greetings simply because Peter neither was there nor ever had been.

Had Peter been in Rome, the omission would have been a gross insult.


Romans was written around 56AD according to the NWT, which puts it at least 5 years earlier than 1 Peter and 2 Timothy. Peter was clearly not resident in Rome in 56AD, that is all.

It says nothing about the situation in 60-64AD, which is roughly when the two letters 1 Peter, and 2 Timothy were written.

Quote:
Paul never mentioned Peter while he was under Roman imprisonment during which he wrote four letters - Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon - nor shortly before his death, when he wrote his final letter to young Timothy. In his letters he mentioned many fellow Christians who were in Rome, but he stated clearly in 2 Tim. 4:11 that only Luke was with him.


OK, but you conveniently omitted the person Paul requested, while he was in prison... the common element between Paul and Peter...

"Do your utmost to come to me shortly... Luke alone is with me. Take Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for ministering." (2 Peter 4:9-11)

"She who is in Babylon, a chosen one like you, sends you her greetings, and so does Mark my son." (1 Peter 5:13)

Did you miss out a mention of Mark deliberately, or by accident? Mark was the connection. Mark was a close companion of Peter, and was requested by Paul.

Therefore Paul in Rome, and Peter in (?)... were in close contact, via Mark. Peter did not actually need to be IN Rome, to pass on the greetings from "she who is in Babylon".

Besides, who is "she"? The cat's mother? Or was Peter referring ALLEGORICALLY to the congregation, and to his ALLEGORICAL son Mark. Or should we take what Peter said literally... that he was writing from literal Babylon, and Mark was his literal son?

Finally, I will repeat the evidence that makes it unlikely Peter was in Babylon in the early 60's. Most of the Jews had left Babylonia in the 40's, after there was a mass slaughter of the Jews there (some 50,000 died) and also a pestilence. Thus, "Now the whole nation of the Jews were in fear both of the Babylonians and of the Seleucians, because all the Syrians that live in those places agreed with the Seleucians in their war against the Jews; so the most of them gathered themselves together, and went to Neerda and Nisibis, and obtained security there by the strength of those cities." (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 9)

This happened in the 40's, around the death of Caius (Caligula). There were virtually no Jews in Babylon after the 40's! It is therefore highly unlikely that Peter was writing from there... a place that was AT WAR with the Jews.

So I have demonstrated...

(1) Peter did not actually need to be IN "Babylon" to send "her" greetings to the congregations. It doesn't say he actually wrote FROM there.

(2) Peter and Paul had a common contact... Mark, who Peter mentions in the same breath as "she who is in Babylon". Paul requested Mark in Rome, and Paul was familiar with Mark, so it's easily possible for Mark to have passed on the Roman congregation's greetings.

(3) It is highly unlikely there was a congregation of Jews in Babylon in the 60's after the Jews had been driven out in the 40's by a war with the Babylonians and Seleucians. If Peter felt the need to witness to the Diaspora, he wouldn't have NEEDED to go to Babylon after the 40's.

(4) Peter probably refers to "she" as the congregation, and "Mark my son" as a spiritual thing, so why not "Babylon" as an allusion to the city's REPUTATION? It might not be Peter's style, but neither is Revelation John's style, based on his letters.

(5) Eusebius may or may not be completely trustworthy, but he was merely passing on the same tradition that had been handed down to him. Many church fathers also equate Babylon to Rome. They may be wrong, but it proves the early church didn't believe it was an unsolvable mystery for "our day".

They had a solution, right or wrong. They heeded Jesus' words, NOT to seal it up, but to hear and apply the words, because the time was near. They didn't say, God would unseal it in his own time. It was already unsealed!

I should point out, I don't believe BTG is Rome solely on this one scripture in 1 Peter. Sure, he could also have been referring to Jerusalem, as some have pointed out. However, the political picture John paints for us in Revelation 13 is that of Rome, immediately after her revival in 70AD, when the emperor even had coins minted, saying ROME REVIVED. The city that ruled the world was Rome, and she WAS (and still is) "the city of the seven hills", and "the eternal city".

We can deny these things all we like, but Revelation 13's first wild beast describes the political situation of 70-73AD to PERFECTION, in the style of Daniel (i.e. if you accept Nebuchadnezzar was granted rulership over all the world, even though his kingdom didn't actually extend that far, the same was true for Vespasian... compare Luke 2:1.) The founding lines of Caesars (the "heads") were also gods that the people worshipped, and they worshipped Satan through the proxy of idols, of which the State itself was one, along with the emperors.

On top of this political "beast" was the "eternal city" herself... with her very own goddess named after her... ROMA. Many of the coins even depicted this woman, ROMA... and no doubt John was also alluding to the same woman that was on their money, and depicted ROME.

In another thread, you eloquently pointed out the Jewish wedding ritual that Jesus was alluding to in Matthew 24. Without this knowledge, we'd only ever see the "Western" version of his words. Well, most Christians divorce Revelation from the POLITICAL situation in John's day... but there are tons of allusions to it, if only we choose to realize that.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-13-2011 09:44 AM

Hi Seraphim

Seraphim Wrote:
I agree, I think Jerusalem is more primarily what he was referring to in 1 Peter. Of course the Romans sacked the temple as Babylon did before it. So I don't think Rome can be completely removed from what is meant by Babylon. There are to many other parallels between original Babylon and Rome to ignore. So 1Pe 5:13 probably refers in its use of the term `Babylon` to a kind of combination of Jewish/Roman influence. At the very least 1Pe 5:13 supports the view that Babylon was a first century entity and therefore may not even exist today. That`s my view of course. Organised religion is not Babylon. For one thing Christians who don't organise are much more likely to be, over time, subsumed into other religious views and culture. The very thing Rome and original Babylon wanted to impose.


Another aspect to consider, apart from my refutation of man hu's points in my post above.

In Revelation 11, that particular city is described in this context: "And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled". (11:8)

Now, I appreciate there is also controversy over this city as well. However, I'd suggest this is much more likely to be Jerusalem, because of the additional qualifier... "where their Lord was also impaled", not to mention the fact that this is in the context of the holy city being trampled by the nations, which Jesus foretold of Jerusalem.

There is at least precedent for comparing Jerusalem to Sodom... that's precisely what Isaiah did!

"The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz that he visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem... // ...Unless Jehovah of armies himself had left remaining to us just a few survivors, we should have become just like Sod´om, we should have resembled Go·mor´rah itself. Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU dictators of Sod´om. Give ear to the law of our God, YOU people of Go·mor´rah." (Isaiah 1:1,9,10)

Jehovah was calling his own people "Sodom" and "Gomorrah". And as regard Egypt, bear in mind that the Hebrews in effect WERE Egyptians! They lived in Egypt for 400+ years, and were brought out under Moses. They later wanted to return TO Egypt.

Both "Sodom" and "Egypt" makes sense in reference to Jerusalem. However, nowhere in the Old Testament is Jerusalem equated to Babylon. However, they are told to flee FROM Babylon.

I think you more than most would be able to see how this city in Rev 11 is likely to be Jerusalem. However, it is trampled but not destroyed... as confirmed by Jesus in the Olivet Prophecy as well as Revelation 11.

Babylon The Great is more likely therefore to be the OTHER "great city" in John's day. As you pointed out, the Romans destroyed the Jewish Temple on precisely the same day as the Babylonians! They acted, therefore, like Babylon.

Now, another thought occurred to me while thinking about Rez's and Digging's point of view, about a possible larger meaning of BTG beyond a "mere" city.

Rez suggests that the two women of Revelation picture the two seeds as it were... the true seed, and the seed of the serpent... or something like that.

The righteous seed was embodied, for a while, in a throne that ruled in Jerusalem, and then after their exile to Babylon, in a line of governors and then to Jesus... all the while, Jerusalem being "the city of the great King".

The question is... if Satan was the great mimicker... what was the counterpart city that Satan was using?

Surely if God's "woman" had her city... at least for a while... Satan had his, too?

Here's a progression of that thought. We know that "old" Jerusalem got superceded by "New Jerusalem" which at least for a time is a more spiritual entity.

Can we think of a way Satan has mimicked this whole process?

What came out of ROME? Why... the Papacy, and the authority of the Church, along with those fish hats stretching to Babylon!

In other words, Satan has mimicked "New Jerusalem" also, in the Roman Catholic Church and its Dagon-headed Pontifex Maximus which claims authority over ALL Christians (including you and Rez)!

So this is why the "silly hat" fits. Rez may be somewhat correct in linking the first woman with the righteous seed... but that had its manifestation on earth, first in Israel and Jerusalem, and then in "New Jerusalem".

What was Satan's counterpart?

First of all, Rome (the physical power base)... and then the Papacy and Church (the spiritual counterpart of "New Jerusalem"), complete with fish hats!

That is why the two women ARE connected... one becomes the true bride, one is the false.

The false has to be put away before the true can be revealed.

Most of the "elite" of this world don't make any pretension of being part of the bride of Christ.

The Church does. The man with the Dagon fish hat claims to speak on behalf of Christ... and leads a billion souls!

Not to sound too Abe-ish... but I think that's worth pretty serious consideration.

Jerusalem paid for her bloodguilt, in 70AD.

Rome was only just getting started in its bloodguilt. When Nero burned the Christians in Rome in his Vatican gardens... that was just the start of a long career for the "city of the seven hills", the "eternal city".


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-13-2011 12:23 PM

I love Occam's Razor.
It means the simplest answer is usually the correct one.
It also means long winded, convoluted answers are unnecessary and likely to be wrong.
If Peter said he was in Babylon and he had no reason to fudge that, then he was. There is no sound reason from the first century to believe otherwise.
Terp. you have to be admired as a master of yoga.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Seraphim - 07-13-2011 01:03 PM

Actually without meaning to be pedantic Occam's Razor doesn't mean `the simplest answer is the correct one or that long winded, convoluted answers are unnecessary and likely to be wrong`. The reason is because the explanation has to be at a minimum sufficient to explain the facts. Sometimes that does mean a complex explanation. Another way to put it is it has to have theoretical economy to put in scientific terms. One wont use more capital than is required to explain something, but one also wont use less capital than is required. Sorry to be a pain.:)


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-13-2011 05:19 PM

Hi man hu

Quote:
It also means long winded, convoluted answers are unnecessary and likely to be wrong.


I agree. Babylon The Great is Rome. Why?

it was the city that ruled the world in John's day, sitting on seven hills.

Simples. 15 words. Occam's razor. Look at the explanation needed for the alternatives on this thread... very wordy!

Or do you, by any chance, pick and choose when to use that razor? ;)

Quote:
If Peter said he was in Babylon and he had no reason to fudge that, then he was.


Well, he had every reason to "fudge that". If Daniel did not put a name to the 4th kingdom, and neither did John, perhaps there WAS a reason not to openly identity Rome as the city that was going to be thrown down? I can think of a darned good reason not to write that down on paper. For more information, Google "nero, christians". You'll find a simple explanation.

Quote:
There is no sound reason from the first century to believe otherwise.


So the reasons I shared were unsound? Like the fact that, despite that Peter was sent to the Diaspora, there weren't any Jews in Babylon when Peter wrote his letter?

Quote:
Terp. you have to be admired as a master of yoga.


Well, I'm not the one that has to play linguistic gymnastics with words and phrases like "the appointed time is near", "I am about to..." and "do not seal up the words of this prophecy".

To me, Occam's razor very clearly forces us to accept that BTG is Rome, the power that could do this, in Jesus' day: "Now in those days a decree went forth from Caesar Augustus for all the inhabited earth to be registered." (Luke 2:1)


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-14-2011 05:09 AM

It's a funny thing but for the past few days I have been distressed because of this topic.....

It stirs a deep feeling within my heart and soul...

Of all people we have come out of a cult so I hope this might give us some insight of the structure of a cult.

We don't want to see that we are still in one...

This whole man made world is her, is a cult and we need to get out.

When we got out before we had to phyically change what we did and where we went, many many things changed in our life.

We need to change again and get out and we are not even sure how to do it this time.

Noahs phyical world was destroyed.

The city Lot was in was destroyed he had to flee.

The Jews were slaves to building the cities of Egypt and they had to leave and go into the pure wilderness.

These events were only types or models of the great fulfillment of what is to come.

We know the earth is our home but we don't even know how to live on her apart from this great city....

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Jan Kosonen - 07-14-2011 03:22 PM

digging Wrote:
It's a funny thing but for the past few days I have been distressed because of this topic.....

It stirs a deep feeling within my heart and soul...

We need to change again and get out and we are not even sure how to do it this time.

These events were only types or models of the great fulfillment of what is to come.

We know the earth is our home but we don't even know how to live on her apart from this great city....

Digging


Hi digging, you said it well, I have understood it in the same way, that God's people have to get out somewhere once or maybe twice yet in the quite near future. And that the examples from the past are foreshadowing that thing.

I have had different optional ideas what that could be, and I have tried to find what the Scriptures says.
Well for the elected (anointed) maybe it will be quite simple. Because according to what Jesus said, he will gather them from all over the earth. Here it is in Matthew 24:31: And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
So the anointed can stay where ever they live, just not to be in Babylon the Great, which I now believe to be New York.

But for the great crowd it could be different, if I am right. I've been studing the scriptures to see if they are to be gathered to Israel in a physical sence. To me there seems to be scriptures supporting this idea. First of all there are scriptures about Gog's attac on God's people in Israel. So because the great crowd is a part of God's people and therefor it would fit that they are gathered to Israel. But it is not possible now. But maybe it will be possible after the 3,5 year reign of the beast.

But for christians and for jews now living in Israel there is a necessity to flee from Israel when Jerusalem will be surounded, according to Jesus' words: “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains. (Matthew 24:15,16)
And I think Jehovah God or Jesus as the head of the congregation prompted Jehovah's witnesses to have a drama about this thing, the flight of christians in the first centry from Judea at last years district assembly.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-14-2011 07:54 PM

Hi Digging

digging Wrote:
This whole man made world is her, is a cult and we need to get out.


This is an interesting thought. I don't necessarily agree that "the whole man made world" is Babylon The Great, but after having re-read the scriptures on her, I can see why they could read that way...

...so for the sake of argument, let's run with this idea, because it's still an interesting thought at the very least.

How does one "get out" of it? For example, I was thinking upon Jesus' words, about being "no part of the world".

Obviously, Christians throughout the world interpret this differently. Some believe that they have an obligation still to participate in politics, others like JWs keep out of politics altogether (library cards and NGO's aside).

What about running a business? Some Christians might think that is being "part of the world", while others see that as OK.

What does "get out" mean? Becoming a hermit? Living in the desert? Not using money? Living a life of total independence? Not paying taxes?

An even more intriguing question... how does one who believes as you do, apply this scripture?

"Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed." (Rev 18:6)


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-15-2011 03:23 AM

Hello Interpertum,

When I say man made world there can be some grey in there, but the impression I'm getting is this huge connected world of commerce all based and driven by consumption.

So the built environment coupled with the actions and beliefs of the people living in it, supporting it and dependant on it. The built environment is like a tool we use to pursue the total indulgment of the flesh. I'm seeing this as what Babylon the Great is.

The fact that Revelation makes such a detailed account of all her deckings points to something very real and of this world for me.
Also the first city of Babel was real BUT what the people were trying to do with the city....using it as a tool in oposition to YHWH.

Anyways, as to some of the other things you mentioned about getting out of her and being no part of the world. For myself I believe Revelation is happening now so the call to get out of her has meaning now. Remember for 70 years the Jews were sent into babylon to live and build homes BUT when it was time to 'get out' and head back to Israel they needed to leave, so for the people alive today we have been 'living in Babylon' and now it's time.

If we are near Christ's return then this 'getting out' is huge.

I believe God is warning anyone reading the bible living at this end time. I see the end time as the total collapse of this global civilization mainly because of the destruction of the earths ecosystems and the social/polical systems we have build are not based on love but on greed and profiting and thus will completely fail to care for the 100's of millions of people that will be left totally stranded.
So each of us needs to really start thinging about how we live in a real way...you mentioned being a hermit or not using money etc, perhaps for some this might be what they feel is needed during this coming time of collapse.

Recall again what is said in vs 4
Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues ;

He is telling us how to not have to suffer the plagues with her.

If we are totally dependant on this machine world to feed/house/cloth us how can we live if it fails? If the power goes out, the trucks stop bring food, the hospitals fail? Over 3 billion now live in cites.

Add to this what Jesus said 'Remember the wife of lot'
Perhaps some of us don't want to give up many of the 'extras' that we have....will that be a test on us like on the Jews in the wilderness pinning for the food of Egypt?

You asked what I thought about Rev 18:6
What I see is this vs describing all the consequences catching up to her(civilization) and they will have a multipling effects but converging down on all at once.

I don't see this as something we do to her, if you read vs 8 clearly God is her Judge.

"For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire ; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

However HOW this judgement is manifested I believe will be very different from what main stream religion has planted in our minds.

Mankind is fighting against God by fighting againt his creation, and he has build/designed it to operate in a special balance. When this balance is disturbed our lives are in danger because our lives are dependant on it for the food and water we get each day.

To come back to the cult idea....when we are in a cult we don't question it we don't even THINK to question it. So with this hugely complex global style of living with cars, power, planes, stores, jobs(we often hate, like going to all those mindless weekly meeting)
We don't even THINK, IS there a different way we should be living?
Stores are like the new 'temples' of the day every holiday has some kind of 'shopping' to go with it!

Is it safe to be 100% dependant on a polluting destructive system?

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-15-2011 03:28 AM

Dear Jan,

I believe all Christians are ment to be the elect. There is only one hope, I don't believe anyone 'goes' to heaven. What was promised to Abraham is what is promised to all believers.

And yes I agree it is possible that all believers might be gathered together at some point for a purpose, however that might not happen right away and we might end up having to live through some very hard times.

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-15-2011 11:35 PM

Hi Digging

Thanks for your detailed reply.

I do generally agree with your idea of this system being a "cult", a kind of "machine" that most people are so plugged into, they don't even realize it.

I had never really considered looking at the entire system as Babylon The Great. I'll admit, it's intriguing to read her description with that idea in mind.

The thing that still bothers me, is that from scripture, I get the impression that BTG is the leading part of a system. For example, she is NOT the wild beast itself, but she sits upon it. Later, the ten kings hate her, and devastate her. She is NOT the ten kings.

In other words, the picture being painted, at least as far as I can see it, is that one part of that system devastates another part of it, not "the system" devastating itself.

Of course, I can see how you might say that "the system" is almost destined to devastate itself, which I guess is quite possible. Yet this isn't quite the impression I'm getting from these scriptures.

The fact that the "ten kings" HATE the harlot, implies that she is not something they really want. She is not part of their club. This implies to me that she is more limited in scope than "the system".

If we go back to chapter 16, we see the build up to the fall of Babylon The Great in verse 19.

In verse 10, we have the fifth bowl poured out "upon the throne of the wild beast. And its kingdom became darkened". The language here implies that the wild beast's has a specific kingdom which can be darkened in the first place. It is not the whole world, since we can contrast this with the fourth bowl, which is poured out on the sun, and scorches men.

In verse 12, we have " the sixth one poured out his bowl upon the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the rising of the sun"... or the "kings from the East".

Now, you talk about "the system". I'd say you are perhaps more specifically referring to the WESTERN capitalistic system, which generally disregards God, and elevates money, status and celebrity.

Interesting that the Euphrates is dried up to make way for the "kings from the EAST"!

Europe and the West has been the dominant force for several hundred years, but that hasn't always been the case. Maybe the above scriptures are foretelling that seismic shift in political power again.

However, that implies that Babylon The Great is to be associated in some way with the Western powers. When you couple that with the idea of the "ten kings", an image borrowed from Daniel's Roman kingdom... the picture that springs to mind for me is that of Europe as the throne of the beast.

This leaves Babylon The Great that has, for some time, sat upon the kingdoms of Europe, but has lost her position and/or will do so fully in the future.

For me, this paints a richer picture. If you think about Daniel's prophecies, they were quite detailed politically... four wild beasts, along with their traits... even a detailed description of a rivalry between kings of the north and south.

I suspect that Revelation also paints a richer political picture than simply talking about "the system". Much as I imagine God is not pleased by the system mankind currently lives under, I imagine there are parts of it that anger Him more.

For example, I would imagine He is far more angry with individuals and agencies that falsely claim to speak on His behalf, than with, say, Joe who does his 9 to 5 in the local factory, as part of "the machine".

This is why I still think it more likely that Babylon The Great is something specifically disgusting to God, a part of "the system" that has Him REALLY angry.

Consider Jesus' words here, for a clue:

"Whoever receives one such young child on the basis of my name receives me [also]. But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who put faith in me, it is more beneficial for him to have hung around his neck a millstone such as is turned by an ass and to be sunk in the wide, open sea." (Matt 18:5)

Notice the stumbler of CHILDREN is given the same fate as Babylon The Great!

"And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again." (Rev 18:21)

Is there any entity you can think of that has stumbled CHILDREN to the extent of inciting Jehovah's wrath? An institution, maybe? Maybe it has even covered up its crimes against children.

The connection cannot be a coincidence. This is but one of the MANY links that identify Babylon The Great.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-16-2011 12:37 AM

Interpretum Wrote:
Notice the stumbler of CHILDREN is given the same fate as Babylon The Great!

"And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again." (Rev 18:21)

Is there any entity you can think of that has stumbled CHILDREN to the extent of inciting Jehovah's wrath? An institution, maybe? Maybe it has even covered up its crimes against children.

The connection cannot be a coincidence. This is but one of the MANY links that identify Babylon The Great.



Yep!

http://www.silentlambs.org/


.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-16-2011 12:39 AM

Interpretum Wrote:
For example, I would imagine He is far more angry with individuals and agencies that falsely claim to speak on His behalf, than with, say, Joe who does his 9 to 5 in the local factory, as part of "the machine".



Yep!


*** w59 5/1 p. 269 Attain Completeness in the New World Society ***

7 To hold to the headship of Christ, it is therefore necessary to obey the organization that he is personally directing. Doing what the organization says is to do what he says.


.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-16-2011 04:18 AM

Dear Interpertum,

Let's reason on this a little more....

I'm glad you have asked this question, or are wondering about this fact of the ten kings with the beast turning on her.

I don't know if you read a comment I made in the thread 'male child' about Jesus?

With that please consider what I'm going to say....

You are right to wonder why would a system 'turn' on it's self?

Jesus gives us the answer, the key on this point....

Notice what he said here.

Matt 12:25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them,

" Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste ; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Go and look at the word *waste* strong #2048 this word Jesus used is only in the NT 5 times, two times Matt/luke and the other three times in Revelation all in vs about her, Babylon the Great!!!

Jesus Christ is Telling us how Satans Kingdom will Fail.
Notice how he said *any kingdom*, *any city*.

This global system is based on competition, rivalry and slowly as the system fails this core value of rivalry with consume and destroy it, because Jesus said a divided house can not stand!



I want to add in another thought to help explain how I'm seeing all this.

When we look at the account in Daniel with the statue we get a picture of the major 'dominant' collective groups of people from history. They were dominant because they formed armies that when out and took/stole from others to feed thier greed to have more than what they worked for. This is what I see as 'Empire'
The Beast = the armies
The conquering civilization = Babylon

In the past there were still many places people could live on this earth that was out of the reach of these empires that came and when. Slowly over time we have come to this point when the majority of the whole world is affected by empire. Thus enters the time mentioned in

Revelation 13:10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes ; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

Ever since Christ death slowly this last final great attempt by the devil to completly rule and ruin the earth has been building up through the expansion of 'empire' all over the earth. Babylon has been taking 'captives' for a very long time. You are either a 'capitive' or you try to 'fight' but slowly and surely all have been hauled off to become property of the 'state'.

Thus the perseverance of the faithful......waiting for the day they will be 'delivered' from Babylon....when they will be able to 'get out' of the global empire and enter into God's kingdom.


That kind of how I'm seeing it of late.

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-16-2011 12:33 PM

digging Wrote:
You are right to wonder why would a system 'turn' on it's self?

Jesus gives us the answer, the key on this point....

Notice what he said here.

Matt 12:25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them,

" Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste ; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Go and look at the word *waste* strong #2048 this word Jesus used is only in the NT 5 times, two times Matt/luke and the other three times in Revelation all in vs about her, Babylon the Great!!!

Jesus Christ is Telling us how Satans Kingdom will Fail.
Notice how he said *any kingdom*, *any city*.


Digging,

What is Jesus Christs Kingdom and what is Satan's Kingdom?

Jesus Christ spent much time explaining how his kingdom would be undermined by Satan's weeds.

The Apostle Paul went further, by explaining that the temple of The God would be undermined by a "man of lawlessness" and that this would be according to the operation of Satan.

What Paul describes is that Satan will have spectacular success acheiving this immediately before Jesus Christ returns.

Jesus Christs kingdom becomes Satans kingdom.

Yes, I understand that is difficult for any Christian to bear however, a lot of scripture has to be ignored if a Christian wants to imagine that Satan has a kingdom seperate from Jesus Christs kingdom before the conclusion of this system of things.

All Jesus Christ has before he returns is a very small remnant which will not be in his kingdom.

They will; "get out".


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-16-2011 12:56 PM

Interpretum Wrote:
In other words, the picture being painted, at least as far as I can see it, is that one part of that system devastates another part of it, not "the system" devastating itself.

Of course, I can see how you might say that "the system" is almost destined to devastate itself, which I guess is quite possible. Yet this isn't quite the impression I'm getting from these scriptures.

The fact that the "ten kings" HATE the harlot, implies that she is not something they really want. She is not part of their club. This implies to me that she is more limited in scope than "the system".

If we go back to chapter 16, we see the build up to the fall of Babylon The Great in verse 19.

In verse 10, we have the fifth bowl poured out "upon the throne of the wild beast. And its kingdom became darkened". The language here implies that the wild beast's has a specific kingdom which can be darkened in the first place. It is not the whole world, since we can contrast this with the fourth bowl, which is poured out on the sun, and scorches men.


Interpretum,

A picture?


Here is a graphic representation of the situation as I see it.

Everything in the black box IS Jesus Christs kingdom undermined by Satan's weeds!





I see a separation between the faithful kings and the unfaithful kings because of what Jesus Christ tells the kings in Revelation Chapter 16:


Revelation 16:15
Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments, that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness.


I see the entire situation inside the black box as a place called "Armageddon".


The faithful kings (slave) can see the situation, they stayed awake, and the unfaithful kings (slave) cannot see it, they fell asleep.


The faithful kings and the unfaithful kings are all spiritual brothers. The 10 kings are also unfaithful kings, spiritual brothers of the faithful kings.


The unfaithful kings cause their own destruction.

The governing body are the 10 kings

Sons of destruction.

Same as Judas Iscariot.

The unfaithful are the "harlot".

These are the ones who "eat and drink" with the drunkards.

If this is correct then the governing body will hate and turn on those who partake. The so called "faithful slave".

There already is evidence that new brothers who start to partake in a kingdom hall are treated with scorn, ridicule and indifference by their own congregation.

If any of these partakers "wake up" from their sleep and bring the transgressions of; God's spirit directed organization" to their own congregation they will be disfellowshipped by people in that congregation who; "imagine they are rendering a sacred service to God".

Those who "wake up" will likely join in a spiritual battle against the 10 kings and the organization (wild beast) to which those 10 kings gave their power away.

Please notice in the picture that the unfaithful (harlot) are indeed riding the wild beast (God's Spirit Directed Organization) to whom the 10 kings (governing body) gave their power away.


So did the governing body give their power away and if they did then who did they give it too?

See this quote from the linked newspaper article:

Quote:
The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, as the group is officially known, had been run by a so-called Governing Body. Now, religious and administrative duties will be divided, with three newly formed corporations running the group's U.S. operations.


Link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20001009/aponline235956_000.htm


Satan does not want any of the unfaithful to "wake up".

If they do then Satan's real battle now is with those who do "wake up".


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-16-2011 05:19 PM

Abe,

I spent a fair bit of time putting these last two posts together because I don't normally have time or the patience to go into such detail because so often someone like yourself jumps in with far fetched notions and can derail the whole line of thought.

I'm going to tell you something straight up Abe. The reason so many people continue to elevate the gov'ning body and the watchtower is by doing so they are continuing to indirectly elevate themselves.

It is a kind of spiritual ego trap.

Having secret thoughts in their own mind about how spiritually special they are.

Since this is a root way cults entrap people by teaching them to think this special way about themselves it can be very hard to let go of even after a person has left the cult.

By keeping the cult special in some way even if it's for a negative reason allows the ex-cult member to maintain their 'specialness'
through indirect past ties.....

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - isomam - 07-16-2011 05:52 PM

sis digging,

i love it when you tell it "straight up"! :thumbsup:


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-16-2011 06:17 PM

digging Wrote:
Abe,

I spent a fair bit of time putting these last two posts together because I don't normally have time or the patience to go into such detail because so often someone like yourself jumps in with far fetch notions and can derail the whole line of thought.

I'm going to tell you something straight up Abe. The reason so many people continue to elevate the gov't body and the watchtower is by doing so they are continuing to indirectly elevating themselves.

It is a kind of spiritual ego trap.

Having secret thoughts in their own mind about how spiritually special they are.

Since this is a root way cults entrap people by teaching them to think this special way about themselves it can be very hard to let go of even after a person has left the cult.

By keeping the cult special in some way even if it's for a negative reason allows the ex-cult member to maintain their 'specialness'
through indirect past ties.....

Digging


digging,

I also spent much time putting my posts together fully supported by what the bible actually does say about the condition of Jesus Christs kingdom immediately before he returns. Measured against things which really have and are happening in our recent history.

Is there some other way?

Let me tell you something straight up digging. The reason why so many people want to completely disconnect themselves from believing the Watchtower has anything to do with the bible is because they are embarrased by the thought that at one time they also believed it did.

What you are accusing me of is something that most of the forum members have also done in their life.

You are trying to make yourself sound "special" by imagining you have now progressed beyond the point where you once believed the Watchtower played a part in bible prophecy, whereas I have not.

Now imagine how much more they would be embarrased to find out they are indeed fulfilling bible prophecies. A double whammy of embarrasement.

But hey, if the only answer to overcome my posts above is to accuse me of wanting to be special rather than use any real reason or logic yourself then I really do feel special that this has become the resort of choice to argue against what I laboriously presented above.

You have fallen into your own trap.


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-16-2011 07:01 PM

Dear Abe,

I don't disagree with you all the time. In fact some times you have made very good points!

I did want to reply about your point of Gods kingdom vs Satans, however I felt this other issue is more pressing.

I can see the JW's being included in the group Babylon the great is the mother of along with many, many other misleading groups, but that is a far as it goes.

Io lift them to such a singularly special place is wayyyyyy over the top and thus points to other motivations.

You also said

"But hey, if the only answer to overcome my posts above is to accuse me of wanting to be special rather than use any real reason or logic yourself then I really do feel special that this has become the resort of choice."

Abe have I not shown to be a reasoning and logic seeking person?
Have I not many times made comments back to you in a reasonable way? Was not my very post to you based on reason and logic about your odd view?
And remember I was replying to Interpum and you jumped in and now are wanting a reply to your reasonings and are offended because I pointed out this glaring issue!

You need to let go Abe, get out of the 'boat', 'remember the wife of lot' stop looking back.....

I've said this FOR you Abe, to try and help you.

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-16-2011 07:47 PM

digging Wrote:
Was not my very post to you based on reason and logic about your odd view?


digging,

No it wasn't!

You used ad-hominem imagining that it would overturn my reason and logic which I used to answer your post above to Interpretums answer.

Did not see any logic in your post other than that.

It must exist only in your imagination.

Is there some hidden rule on a discussion forum about when someone can or cannot discuss the topics being rasied?

Or does that rule also exist in the imagination?


Yes, I answered your ad-hominem attack in the hopes that it might help YOU understand how it works!


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-16-2011 08:23 PM

I'm sorry everyone but I just don't want to let it go just yet....

Here's some reasoning.

What are the odds if you had never become a JW would you have this inbalanced view of thier postion in scripture? How many elect of God whom come from different religious back ground hold this same view?

I believe you really love God and you long for truth. However right now as you have read these past few posts how do you feel?
Are you at peace, have joy? I don't get that from your replies.

What you are saying is like trying to turn darkness into some kind of light.

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-16-2011 08:30 PM

Quote:
Is there some hidden rule on a discussion forum about when someone can or cannot discuss the topics being rasied?


Does there have to be a rule, Abe -- hidden or otherwise? I think you've had more posts (3,544) than anyone I know, most of them repetitive. It gets very wearing after a while...especially when you often post several in a row.

I wish there was a way to convince you that you could use a little more sensitivity. Love ya bro but you're a sad case locked into a box of your own making.

rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-16-2011 08:51 PM

Hi Digging

Thanks for your post.

digging Wrote:
I'm glad you have asked this question, or are wondering about this fact of the ten kings with the beast turning on her.

I don't know if you read a comment I made in the thread 'male child' about Jesus?


I probably did read it, although I can't remember the details. I do try and keep track of everybody's viewpoints on these and other threads, but as you can imagine, the sheer number of viewpoints makes that task quite a challenge :)

By the way, you can actually link to specific *posts* in a thread. On the right hand side of each post, it will give the post number, i.e. "Post: #151". The number itself is linked, and you can copy and paste that link, if you want to refer to previous posts.

Quote:
With that please consider what I'm going to say....

You are right to wonder why would a system 'turn' on it's self?

Jesus gives us the answer, the key on this point....

Notice what he said here.

Matt 12:25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them,

" Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste ; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Go and look at the word *waste* strong #2048 this word Jesus used is only in the NT 5 times, two times Matt/luke and the other three times in Revelation all in vs about her, Babylon the Great!!!

Jesus Christ is Telling us how Satans Kingdom will Fail.
Notice how he said *any kingdom*, *any city*.

This global system is based on competition, rivalry and slowly as the system fails this core value of rivalry with consume and destroy it, because Jesus said a divided house can not stand!


Yes, but the argument I made from the previous post was that Babylon The Great isn't really in the same "club". The "ten kings" destroy her because they hate her.

Also, please note that it is both the "ten kings" and "the beast" that destroy BTG:

"And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled." (Rev 17:16,17)

In other words, this suggests that the "ten horns", "the beast" and "the prostitute" are three different elements. The fact that the ten horns have to HAND OVER their royal power to the beast, means "the beast" and the "ten horns" aren't the same thing... which implies "the prostitute" isn't either.

Besides, the current global system might indeed "consume itself"... let's face it, Karl Marx said basically the same thing... but I don't see that as THE destruction of Babylon The Great by God. In fact, who knows... maybe the West will find itself under a form of Communism! It wouldn't entirely surprise me.

Quote:
I want to add in another thought to help explain how I'm seeing all this.

When we look at the account in Daniel with the statue we get a picture of the major 'dominant' collective groups of people from history. They were dominant because they formed armies that when out and took/stole from others to feed thier greed to have more than what they worked for. This is what I see as 'Empire'
The Beast = the armies
The conquering civilization = Babylon

In the past there were still many places people could live on this earth that was out of the reach of these empires that came and when. Slowly over time we have come to this point when the majority of the whole world is affected by empire. Thus enters the time mentioned in

Revelation 13:10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes ; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

Ever since Christ death slowly this last final great attempt by the devil to completly rule and ruin the earth has been building up through the expansion of 'empire' all over the earth. Babylon has been taking 'captives' for a very long time. You are either a 'capitive' or you try to 'fight' but slowly and surely all have been hauled off to become property of the 'state'.


This is interesting, because I see the exact OPPOSITE process in history! I see mankind has slowly been more and more set FREE from captivity, although to be fair, there are lots of competing forces attempting to take them captive again.

However, consider these thoughts...

Mankind as a whole had no collective ransom sacrifice until Jesus died, about 2,000 years ago. Until that time, we were ALL captives of sin and death, with no escape at all.

500 years ago, most people were ignorant of scripture because they could not read Latin, and basically had to obey an all powerful Church. Or maybe they lived in a Muslim land, and had to follow the rules laid down by their prophet. They were in captivity to a Church or Mosque.

Then came the Printing Press, the Reformation, translation of the Bible into people's own tongue. People were free to study what God's word said, for themselves... after over 1,200 years!

Less than 250 years ago, both in Europe and in the U.S.A, revolutions raged for liberty. The USA was founded on the principles of liberty (although it has never completely lived up to those ideals, it renewed mankind's sense of liberty).

During the 1800's, starting in Britain and gradually extending across the globe, the slave trade was gradually abolished. This wasn't even done in ancient Israel!

Nowadays, you have the freedom to read God's word, to interpret it as you like, to worship God (or not) as you choose.

The State's power is a lot weaker over you than, say 2000 or 500 years ago. It can no longer demand your worship, as did the Roman system, or dictate your religion, as in medieval Europe.

You mentioned Daniel, but the picture painted by Daniel 2 is of an ever WEAKER system! The valuable GOLD, the slightly less valuable SILVER, the even less valuable BRONZE, then the strong IRON, followed by the weak IRON and CLAY, followed by a fragmented system that can't even stick together!

This vision has been perceptively accurate. Look at Europe as an example. In the past 100 years it has fought TWO world wars... and even though right now they have an impressive EU superstate, wait till the bailout bills (from Greece, Ireland, Portugal, perhaps Spain and Italy) come due... we'll see how long that European project lasts :)

As Daniel's vision foretold... they just can't keep it together for any decent length of time!

This is why I can't fully share your perspective. As one who perhaps aligns closer to the Historicist point of view on Revelation, i.e. that is a prophecy that has unfolded from Jesus' day until ours and beyond, I see that God has already largely set us free.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-16-2011 10:50 PM

Hi Digging

I've been re-reading Revelation 14 over the past hour or two. It has a definite bearing on Babylon The Great.

Chapter 14 is very intriguing, because it comes immediately after the two wild beasts, and provides a nice contrast. While the wild beasts have spoken deception and blasphemies, the 144,000 that stand upon Mount Zion have no lie in their mouth, and are blameless.

We then have the three angels fly in midheaven...

The first proclaims an eternal gospel to everyone on earth, telling them to "fear God and give him glory."

The second angel says, ""Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality."

The third angel says, ""If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger..."

Interesting that the translation I'm using here (ESV), says "passion" of her sexual immorality. The Greek word means ANGER.. and the same word is used of God's wine.

In other words, God is matching the ANGER of BTG's wine, with the ANGER of His own wine.

In verses 13 and 14 we have an indication that this covers a long period of time:

"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Blessed indeed," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!"

Clearly a lot of people die when this process begins. The next verses add to this suggestion, with the two harvests, the second of which being thrown into God's winepress of anger.

However, as we know, this is NOT the end of it... for there are the "seven last plagues" still to come. Yet, how has Babylon the Great "fallen" here?

This is where an understanding of timing and context is important. The wild beasts do not appear overnight, just like Daniel's four beasts do not pop out of the blue... they developed over hundreds of years, and so do Revelation's beasts.

Now, I believe God is just. He does not throw people into the lake of fire without fully understanding of their guilt.

So Revelation 14 might apply somehow to the 1st century (as full Preterists believe). However, if it's not fulfilled in the 1st century, then Scripture was not yet generally available for people to read again until the 15th century, with the invention of the Printing Press.

It is no coincidence that soon afterwards, Luther was able to pin his 95 thesis to the church door, and kick off the Reformation that caused the collapse of the Papacy's near-monopoly of power in Western religious (and, to a certain extent, political) affairs.

Finally, men and women could again CHOOSE their religion, and serve God with a full understanding.

The eternal gospel was preached once again, and with it... this very message of Revelation we take for granted nowadays.

Yes, the Reformation was partly a violent affair. Remember, the Greek talks about the ANGER of BTG's wine. She is a KILLER of Christ's followers, drunk with their blood! So God repaid her violence with violence.

This explains why Babylon The Great suffers two falls. The earlier one is to break her power, and to release the "eternal gospel" from its LATEINOS (666) chains. The second one is to completely burn her with fire.

Please note the connection between the first angel's message (about the "eternal gospel"), and the second angel's (about Babylon The Great's fall).

This is why I find it difficult to believe BTG is merely "the system", which is generally indifferent to the gospel, in contrast to the LATIN power which was actively OPPOSED to the spread of the gospel, and had those who translated it burned.

Please compare this with Daniel 7, and in particular verse 11: ""I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire."

Please note which beast this horn belongs to. It is the FOURTH beast, the one with iron teeth and ten horns. This is the ROMAN beast, that lasts in some form (a horn with a big mouth!) until God's kingdom comes!

I would like to hear your interpretation of this beast that Daniel sees being given over to be burned with fire. For me, it's pretty unambiguous. The horn comes up among the ten horns, so is part of the Roman empire.... but wars with the holy ones, until his kingdom is taken away, and destroyed at the end.

This fits only one kingdom that I can think of. And that's where we get back to the fish hats. :)


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-16-2011 11:19 PM

digging Wrote:
I'm sorry everyone but I just don't want to let it go just yet....

Here's some reasoning.

What are the odds if you had never become a JW would you have this inbalanced view of thier postion in scripture? How many elect of God whom come from different religious back ground hold this same view?

I believe you really love God and you long for truth. However right now as you have read these past few posts how do you feel?
Are you at peace, have joy? I don't get that from your replies.

What you are saying is like trying to turn darkness into some kind of light.

Digging



digging,

What are the odds?

Now thats a reasonable question I can deal with.

What are the odds that there would actually be a people out of every nation called by God's actual name? Acts Chapter 15

What are the odds that it would be those same people who make a covenant with death? Millions now living will never die

What are the odd that covenant with death is the same as Satans lie? Genesis Chapter 3 and 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2

What are the the odds that the governing body would say the organization was; " a number of brothers"? A mans' number Revelation Chapter 13

What are the odds that they would insist that people make a baptismal vow to a name called God's Spirit Directed Organization and that same name can be calculated as 666? Revelation Chapter 13

What are the odds that it is either the forehead or hand that goes under the water last making the baptism valid? Revelation Chapter 17

What are the odds that the governing body would give their power away to a corporation? Revelation Chapter 17

What are the odds that the Watchtower is the ONLY organization in the world that can communicate with all peoples from all nations and tongues in their own language? Revelation Chapter 17

What are the odds that their newly invented baptismal vows cause Jesus Christ some distress? Luke Chapter 12

What are the odds that Jehovah's Witnesses are the ONLY religion who exclude brothers by reason of God's actual name? Isaiah Chapter 66

What are the odds that Jehovah's Witnesses would make an anouncement which sounds almost exacly like; "you are not my people" when disfellowshipping someone. Romans Chapter 9


Your second question.


How many elect of God whom come from different religious back grounds hold this same view?


I have found none!


Perhaps you could have all the ones you know calculate the odds above and tell me the immediately obvious answer.

The odds are against an elect outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses even existing.

If I found one I would ask them if they were recently excommunicated by their own Christian brothers by reason of God's actual name because they saw enemies inside of God's temple.

Their answer would be very revealing to me because I understand the overwhelming odds above.


Am I at peace and joy?

I am completely and entirely grieved at the situation I have found Christianity to be in.

I have found peace however, at believing this is exactly the condition the bible describes and joy that I am able to see through the overwhelming odds I described above.

Yes, it is very much like turning the darkness into light.

Grief into joy.

John 16:20
20 Most truly I say to YOU, YOU will weep and wail, but the world will rejoice; YOU will be grieved, but YOUR grief will be turned into joy



In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-16-2011 11:39 PM

Yes there are so many different little directions we can start to go when talking about this topic!

For myself I see these three parts like a family unit. They each point to a certain aspect of the system which they are a part of. The fact that she rode the beast for so long points to a union for what seems to have been a long time right until her destruction. Like a really messy divorce! Anyways I'm not sure how detailed you want to go on this? But I'd like to say I think she might be symboled in Revelation 13 as the beast also.....

Also I agree that spiritually as believers we have been set free through Christ, but we are still waiting for the fulfillment of all of God's promises including the phyically blessing of our lives on earth.

However this modern industrial global society is still by far the phyically strongest and most impactive that has ever been built by mankind.

Take care,

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - wolfie - 07-17-2011 06:43 AM

digging Wrote:
I'm sorry everyone but I just don't want to let it go just yet....

Here's some reasoning.

What are the odds if you had never become a JW would you have this inbalanced view of thier postion in scripture? How many elect of God whom come from different religious back ground hold this same view?

I believe you really love God and you long for truth. However right now as you have read these past few posts how do you feel?
Are you at peace, have joy? I don't get that from your replies.

What you are saying is like trying to turn darkness into some kind of light.

Digging


this is so true digging, and hit a cord with me. I was flipping through channels early, early one morning and came across a minister from singapore who had on a screen behind him all the most common scriptures we have used for years in the past to back up our arguments for end times. He was directly and with confidence applying them to Japan and predicted right down to the earthquake and the great tusunami they got a few years ago--he found Japan in every scripture he read and even told them their outcome. It was pretty fascinating, really. As a rule, we only know the world we see and relate to that and our vision is so limited. His speaking had Nothing to do with the United States or Jehovah's Witnesses yet he found all the significance in scripture relating to japan and their rise and fall and rise again--as I said--fascinating...:love:


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-19-2011 02:30 AM

Well I'm going to continue abit more with this topic and since it is in the Controversy room I'm going to let my hair down on this one.

perhaps in my other posts I'd didn't us the proper words to explain who/what I think she is?

What we call Civilization. What IS civilization...think about it for a moment.

She rides the beast and has power over all people all over the world. Why and what has done this?
Even though different dominate governments have come and gone on the world the basic idea to bring ourselves together and organizes ourselves apart from God's will in a concentrated living arrangment has been going on for 1000's of years and began with the first city of Babel.

How does YHWH want us to live???

Well he did condemn Babel and other cities. Interestingly when he brought the Jews out of Egypt he orgainized them into thier FAMILY units, into their tribes. Abraham lived with his family. What greater way to help create a loving society but to live with your extended family.

Cities on the other hand are the complete opposite. People are afraid of each other, they live with people they never even talk to or say hello or even look into thier eyes.

The collapse of industrial civilzation is what is coming. Jesus said seeing and they would not see......the most obvious thing right in front of our face but we have become blind to it.

Here is a good you tube that hints at what I'm saying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hVf4SStB-M&feature=player_embedded

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-19-2011 12:24 PM

Interesting new thoughts, Digging. Sorry to have been so long in getting back to this thread. Crazy life!

City building seems to be a characteristic of Babylon the Great. What better way to control people.

Who was the first person to build a city?

"Afterward Cain had intercourse with his wife and she became pregnant and gave birth to E′noch. Then he engaged in building a city and called the city’s name by the name of his son E′noch." -- Genesis 4:17

Jesus condemned the rulers of unrighteous Jerusalem because of righteous blood that had been shed by Babylon the Great from Abel onward.

"....that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri′ah son of Bar·a·chi′ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar." -- Matthew 23:35

That judgment came upon the city and its people. It will also come upon the mother who still sits as a queen in our day.

"And the great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great was remembered in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the anger of his wrath." -- Revelation 16:19

"Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth." -- Revelation 18:24

Interestingly, 1 John 3:10-12 refers to Cain as the first of the Devil's seed. Cain sets a pattern for the rest of the seed of the serpent.

"The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which YOU have heard from [the] beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for the sake of what did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother [were] righteous."

Jude 11 speaks of certain ones as going in the path of Cain.

This is another reason why I believe that Babylon the Great, that tool of Satan, had its origins right from the start of civilization....with Cain.

cheers,
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-19-2011 06:17 PM

Good work Resolute!

I over looked that vs about Cain building a city!

Also if we go back to Revelation 16:19 "And the great city was split into three parts, and the *Cities of the Nations fell*. And Babylon the great was remembered before God,..."

I've mentioned this before, but the Jews were slaves to building the bricks for the cities of Egypt. There is sooooo much wrong about the living arrangements we have built with cities. They are so energy consumptive, polluting, noisy, smelly on and on. Often people whom live in cities all the time are afraid of the natural world.

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Beau Wetini - 07-19-2011 06:22 PM

digging Wrote:
smelly on and on


Maybe in Canada! :D


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Willa - 07-19-2011 08:00 PM

ablebodiedman Wrote:
What are the odds?
Now thats a reasonable question I can deal with.
What are the odds that there would actually be a people out of every nation called by God's actual name? Acts Chapter 15 God Himself named His people "Israel" - Genesis 22. Messiah came first to save Israel - Matthew 15:24; then his other sheep, believing Gentiles - Matthew 12. The first century believers were called "Christians" by others - Acts 11:26, 26:28, but Paul makes clear the point that we believers are all still God's named-people, "Israel" - Romans 9 & 11. Jesus, the King of Israel - John 1:49, calls believers to be his witnesses - Acts 1:8. I would not call Jehovah's Witnesses good witnesses of Jesus, but that's just me...

What are the odds that it would be those same people who make a covenant with death? Millions now living will never die Google 'covenant with death' and see what freak shows associate with that term... and some have knowingly, willingly entered into that agreement 'with hell'. :shocked:

What are the odds that covenant with death is the same as Satans lie? Genesis Chapter 3 and 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2 The lie being 'you will be like God'? I'm not seeing that connection verbatim... 2 Thes. 2 says the mol seats himself as God, not that he makes any promises to anyone else... tell me what you're referring to?

What are the the odds that the governing body would say the organization was; " a number of brothers"? A mans' number Revelation Chapter 13 That's stretch since most all Christian groups call each other "brother" and "sister" - sometimes even "brother in Christ" and "sister in Christ"!(but that would be met with expressions of shock at a KH, would it not?)

What are the odds that they would insist that people make a baptismal vow to a name called God's Spirit Directed Organization and that same name can be calculated as 666? Revelation Chapter 13 Yeah, everyone has a different idea for that one - for thousands of years. 666 may not even be in the original text, and if it's not then there's been a lot of time wasted in speculation trying to line up the numbers on that one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast

What are the odds that it is either the forehead or hand that goes under the water last making the baptism valid? Revelation Chapter 17 That's one heck of a looooong stretch!

What are the odds that the governing body would give their power away to a corporation? Revelation Chapter 17 Right or wrong, a lot of Christian churches are incorporated. http://www.guymalone.com/501c3church.htm

What are the odds that the Watchtower is the ONLY organization in the world that can communicate with all peoples from all nations and tongues in their own language? Revelation Chapter 17 ONLY? Lol. All languages? The odds are against them on that one.
The Bible continues to be the most translated book in the world. The following numbers are approximations. As of 2005, at least one book of the Bible has been translated into 2,400 of the 6,900 languages listed by SIL,[13] including 680 languages in Africa, followed by 590 in Asia, 420 in Oceania, 420 in Latin America and the Caribbean, 210 in Europe, and 75 in North America. The United Bible Societies are presently assisting in over 600 Bible translation projects. The Bible is available in whole or in part to some 98 percent of the world's population in a language in which they are fluent.

The United Bible Society announced that as of 31 December 2007[14] the Bible was available in 438 languages, 123 of which included the deuterocanonical material as well as the Tanakh and New Testament. Either the Tanakh or the New Testament alone was available in an additional 1168 languages, and portions of the Bible were available in another 848 languages, for a total of 2,454 languages.

In 1999, Wycliffe Bible Translators announced Vision 2025. This project aims to see Bible translation begun by 2025 in every remaining language community that doesn't have it. They currently estimate that 2,251 languages, representing 193 million people, lack a Bible translation.[15] (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations


As of 2011, the New World Translation has been published in 103 languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/.../New_World_Translation_of_the_Holy_Scriptur... But their litterature is published in more languages(not really a good thing from my pov...) - http://www.watchtower.org/languages.htm

What are the odds that their newly invented baptismal vows cause Jesus Christ some distress? Luke Chapter 12 Riiiiight, that's Jesus' main focus with everything that's happening and has happened for the past 2 thousand years.... can we not imagine that he might have other, more pressing and distressing things on his mind?

What are the odds that Jehovah's Witnesses are the ONLY religion who exclude brothers by reason of God's actual name? Isaiah Chapter 66 God's actual name? It's one of a few acceptable variations of YHVH, but you cannot prove it's God's one and only actual name. That pronunciation didn't even come about until approximately the 13th century, so it's extremely doubtful it could've been the pronunciation the nation of Israel used. Even the wt must admit to that, 'though they justify their usage of that pronunciation exclusively - http://www.watchtower.org/e/na/article_02.htm.

What are the odds that Jehovah's Witnesses would make an anouncement which sounds almost exactly like; "you are not my people" when disfellowshipping someone. Romans Chapter 9
Almost exactly is not exactly. Every Christian church which disfellowships or 'excommunicates' uses similar language. Google 'excommunication'.

Your second question.
How many elect of God whom come from different religious back grounds hold this same view?
I have found none! There's a reason for that...

Perhaps you could have all the ones you know calculate the odds above and tell me the immediately obvious answer. Do your own math!

The odds are against an elect outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses even existing. Is this another math problem? Prove it.

If I found one I would ask them if they were recently excommunicated by their own Christian brothers by reason of God's actual name because they saw enemies inside of God's temple. God's actual name? I'm actually convinced the opposite is true... that it's not God's actual name. But then... I never called my fleshly father by his name either, so "Father" is the name I use most often. :pray: Matthew 7:11

Their answer would be very revealing to me because I understand the overwhelming odds above. Strawman. You've built-up an argument by what your reasoning solves. In other words, you've 'stacked the odds', so yeah, they're overwhelming!


abe, I don't think you're afflicted with self-importance as suggested - I think you just want and need justice and believe me, we all do. There are ticked-off ex-Catholics and ex-Mormons and ex-Muslims, etc., too, who look at their ex-religions as deceptive/evil and in need of correction/judgment. Religion has a lot to answer for, and most have been doin' stuff to answer for for much much longer than the wtbts. If I'm reading my Bible right they all will answer to the Ones in whose names they spoke wrongly, in whose names they killed, in whose names they taught hate. They're all a part of it, wtbts included. It's not about revenge - that belongs to God because He's really the One who's been offended. But it is about justice. There is no true peace without justice. That's what Jesus gives us - his peace - knowing justice is his "A" game! We don't have to wait until justice is actually meted out to be satisfied with the knowledge that it will be, in God's time, and we can have peace now simply because we TRUST HIM! There IS great joy in that!


:peace: Love ya, but I still disagree with ya!
Willa



RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - gogh - 07-19-2011 08:21 PM

...bulls eye/right on durango/correct, etc., Willa.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-19-2011 09:24 PM

So let me get this straight... God has all this hate for cities, and yet many here have concluded that Babylon The Great couldn't possibly be a CITY?

Also, if God disliked cities so much, why Jerusalem? Why did Jesus call it "the city of the great King"? Why did He put His Temple there? Why did God model "New Jerusalem" on... a CITY!

Folks, you're playing with language a bit here.

Let's get down to it.

What Cain built was a CITY.

Nimrod, the first one who actively opposed Jehovah, built cities... including Babel the CITY.

On the other hand, righteous king David built the CITY of Jerusalem... and Jehovah blessed it. Dozens of psalms were written around the theme of Jehovah blessing Jerusalem.

Later on, Jehovah waxes lyrical in His condemnation of certain specific CITIES.... Ninevah, Babylon, Tyre, Samaria, Jerusalem, etc.

Jehovah's anger was often strong against CAPITAL cities, because they were usually the seat of power for their kingdom.

Jesus came along and specifically condemned Jerusalem the CITY... the city formerly blessed by Jehovah.

I think we're getting closer in equating Babylon The Great to CITIES... but still, it's written in such a way as to strongly imply it's talking about ONE city.

Not ALL cities sit on "seven hills".

Not ALL cities are drunk with the blood of Christ's followers.

Indeed, I'd say on this point alone, my point should stand. Should the God of Justice judge all cities equally?

Did not Abraham, in his controversy with God, get God to concede that if merely 5 righteous people were to be found in Sodom, God would not destroy it?

In other words, if there were more than 5... God would not have overthrown Sodom, and Lot would have not needed to flee.

True, Revelation says that ALL of the cities of the nations fall, but this is as a result of the earthquake.

God specifically plagues Babylon The Great... implying that "the cities of the nations" and "Babylon The Great" are two different things, with different degrees of severity in their punishment.

I will concede that I can see how one might conclude that "Babylon The Great" equates to all the cities of the world. However, for me... the weight of evidence still suggests it is a SPECIFIC city that God is angry with.

Otherwise, where is the justice? Some cities, like Jerusalem or Rome, are FAR more bloodguilty than, say, Cleveland, Ohio (although to be fair, that city produced Drew Carey... so just maybe).

He was angry with Babylon the CITY in 539BC. He was angry with Jerusalem the CITY in 70AD. He was angry with XXXX the CITY... in 20XX.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-20-2011 04:10 AM

Hmmm,

Remember she still is a symbol. What drives mankind to build cities, and gather far, far more than they every need? She's about how the flesh drives us with all of our desires for gradifications. So on the inside she is a symbol for our sinful flesh and on the outside all the 'jewels' and flashy clothes, makeup, hair doe, etc is the *excessive* built environment we have created to serve the chasing of these fleshly desires!

It is not one city, it's all the cities together, it's the whole idea of how we are arranging ourselves on earth. The reason we might think she is one city is because of the repeating pattern. They all are based on the same principles and serve the same goals. She is far bigger than one city! Babylon the *Great*.
As far as I know most christians were killed in cities, or hunted down by people who lived in them, really has it not been the 'civilized' nations that kill christians, that killed Jesus?
The cities come first THEN the national army with king/gov't.

Take a look at Ezekiel 38:11" I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. I will go against those who are at rest, that live securely, all of them living without walls, and having no bars or gates."

A city is noted by being guarded, walled, gated etc. In the future YHWH will be our protection. So to live in YHWH's *city* means to live with his divine protection. So once again our brick/stone built cities are a way of trying to replace this protection or make up for having lost it in the first place.

His city is a spiritual connection like what Jesus had, where he was God's temple/city was. Because Jesus was the first faithful person he was for a time the only one living in God's house/city/temple. After he went away/died he opened the way for many to follow and join him in the future to also live in this
city/temple/house/garden = a divinely protected way of living in communication with God = The Bride, the Holy woman.

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Totaldismay - 07-20-2011 05:07 AM

Did you ever see how "people" are in awe of the "city" many people want to run from their nice little country areas to make it in the "city"

Just an observation.

Human collective thought is amazing and dangerous at the same time.
we can come together to build great things.

when we become organized to do any work we acheive great things.

the problem is "US" the allure of these great things becomes a god a thing sought after more then righteouness from what I see.

the "greater good" of the people leads to attrocities. and not taking care of the needs of the lost individuals. we get lost in our own grandious ideas. Some men have more grandious ideas then others.
some men build great city's and some conquer them so as to posses them.

the root of the this is where the problem seems to lay.

the root of this needs to get a band put around it for it to stop the wild growth.

great things coming from great good hearted people could lead to a city being blessed from our Father.

and the opposite is also true. and many inbetween the two extremes exist as well.

we tend to knock all things out of balance.
Food is for our good yet it is killing people who do not learn to control intake.


BTG seemsto be the "wild growth" of religion and government.

it is in a cancerous state.

it has to be based on becoming greater in our own eye's and self rule.
and leaving our Father.

he continuosly likens it to a cheating wife.
he likens it to a mother

It makes me wonder why he feels like a spurned husband.
why not liken it to a man who doesn't take care of his family?
or some other analogy.
maybe cause men can't give birth? IDK

but I would ask how has Jeruselem or Rome become mother to many other cheating wifes.

Seems to me the sins of the mother are past on to the daughters and the cycle continues.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Willa - 07-20-2011 08:32 AM

Totaldismay Wrote:
BTG seemsto be the "wild growth" of religion and government.

it is in a cancerous state.

it has to be based on becoming greater in our own eye's and self rule.
and leaving our Father.

he continuosly likens it to a cheating wife.
he likens it to a mother

It makes me wonder why he feels like a spurned husband.

but I would ask how has Jeruselem or Rome become mother to many other cheating wifes.

Seems to me the sins of the mother are past on to the daughters and the cycle continues.

Makes sense to me, Frank! But, what do we know?! :dontknow:


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-20-2011 12:00 PM

Willa Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:
What are the odds?
Now thats a reasonable question I can deal with.
What are the odds that there would actually be a people out of every nation called by God's actual name? Acts Chapter 15


God Himself named His people "Israel" - Genesis 22. Messiah came first to save Israel - Matthew 15:24; then his other sheep, believing Gentiles - Matthew 12. The first century believers were called "Christians" by others - Acts 11:26, 26:28, but Paul makes clear the point that we believers are all still God's named-people, "Israel" - Romans 9 & 11. Jesus, the King of Israel - John 1:49, calls believers to be his witnesses - Acts 1:8. I would not call Jehovah's Witnesses good witnesses of Jesus, but that's just me...


Willa,

Quote:
God Himself named His people "Israel" - Genesis 22.


Then God would have a people called "Israel" who would rebuild the booth of David. The people on the planet today who are called Israel would have to be doing all the same things that Jehovah's Witnesses are doing.

What are the odds of that?

Quote:
The first century believers were called "Christians" by others - Acts 11:26, 26:28, but Paul makes clear the point that we believers are all still God's named-people, "Israel" - Romans 9 & 11.


Then the name in Amos which was being quoted must have been "Israel" or "Christian" and James who quoted the scripture was not aware of what Amos really said.

What are the odds of that?

Perhaps James did not know God's name at that time, or perhaps James did not know that the name was Israel and so Jesus Christ had to teach it to him?

John 17:6
I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.

What are the odds of that?

Quote:
I would not call Jehovah's Witnesses good witnesses of Jesus, but that's just me.


Me neither!

In fact I would expect true Christians to be undermined and become disloyal to Jesus Christ immediately before he returns. I would expect an apostasy.

Which is exactly what the bible says to expect:

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.

The odds of true Christians not being "good witnesses of Jesus" are 100% if what the Apostle Paul said is true.

If you really believe that God's word according to what the Apostle Paul wrote is true then it should make you tremble!

Paul explains that the consequences for this apostasy is "perishing".

Yep, that makes me tremble.

Isaiah 66:5-6
Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.” 6 There is a sound of uproar out of the city, a sound out of the temple! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying what is deserved to his enemies.



In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-20-2011 04:39 PM

Well now I'm missing my work to think about this some more, I'll just have to work later into the evening.

1st of a rez after I went back and was reading over your post again I noticed one more interesting point about Cain. in addition to being the first city builder, he had his origin with Satan AND *slaughtered* his brother. Just like in her is all the blood of everyone slaughtered on the earth.

So now keeping with this idea of this larger thing we have been doing as humans building cities..... cities that need to be guarded because they have brought together too much wealth, or stolen wealth. It's lead to all this complex development of our race, but is motivated by a root of wickness just like Cain. Can we not turn on the news anywhere and hear and see all about the gross greed that makes this global network for cities run?

Now I'm going to add into the mix something I've noticed that I think is linked to this topic with Abraham.

Hebrews 11:8 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a [land] not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Are we not being 'called' to get out of Her? We don't seem to know either where we need to go.....

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-20-2011 05:16 PM

Hi Digging

Quote:
Remember she still is a symbol... < snip >... The reason we might think she is one city is because of the repeating pattern"


Well, the real reason I believe she is a city, is because the angel tells us its a city.

"And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth." (Rev 17:18)

Reams of paper and posts have gone into great detail about BTG while essentially ignoring this key point. The angel tells us she is a city.

Yes, the woman is a SYMBOL... but the angel is also interpreting the symbol for us. Just as Jesus does near the start, when he says, "the seven lampstands are the seven churches." (Rev 1:20)

In other words: the "seven lampstands" are the SYMBOL. The real meaning is "the seven churches", namely "Ephesus... Smyrna... Pergamum... Thyatira... Sardis... Philadelphia... Laodicea.", the churches names in 1:11.

Sure, we could make the case that Jesus was really talking to ALL churches (and I agree, in some ways he was)... but the seven lampstands meant the seven specific churches he wanted John to write to.

The pattern he establishes here is: A (the symbol) is really B (the meaning of the symbol).

When the angel says "the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth", it's telling us..

The woman (the symbol) is really the great city (the meaning of the symbol).

It also tells us it sits on seven hills, which also identifies the city further, although seven hills stem from a dual meaning:

Seven heads (the symbol) mean seven hills / mountains (the meaning), and also seven kings (its other meaning).

This, as far as I'm concerned, its a basic interpretative principle in Revelation... and if we don't follow it, then we're going to end up confused... ironically, with our own "Babel" (which means "confusion").

Or let me put it another way. If the angel meant all the cities, it could have done that very simply.

"And the woman that you saw are the cities of the nations, that have dominion over the kings of the earth."

There are several ways the angel could have signified that the woman means ALL the cities. It didn't.

The angel was basically telling John what "Babylon The Great" was, without actually naming the city... which would have got John's manuscript destroyed by the authorities, and the Christians even more persecuted.

I love your ideas, Digging... and I love the way you see things... but ultimately, I prefer to stick with the angel's interpretation of John's vision, just as I don't try and make the "seven lampstands" to be anything but what Jesus says it is.

To do anything else risks us getting into "private interpretations"... and you know where that leads...


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-20-2011 05:37 PM

Hi TD

Totaldismay Wrote:
but I would ask how has Jeruselem or Rome become mother to many other cheating wifes.


BTG was never married to God, just as ancient Babylon was never married to God, and just as Ninevah (also called a prostitute) was never married to God.

"And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations." (17:5 ESV)

Notice what Jesus said would befall Jerusalem:

"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matt 24:15,16)

The Roman armies carried "abominations" namely their eagle ensigns which they worshipped as gods. Idolatry has always been an abomination to God.

Rome was the home of the gods. It gave birth to the cult of the Emperor, and many of the places in Asia Minor (to which John wrote) were steeped in these cults. In other words, worship of "the beast" was prominent in John's world.

When Christianity "conquered" the Roman empire, the imperial version (Trinity, etc) of Christianity was then imposed on the empire. Finally, the ROMAN Catholic Church and the Papacy rose to power, but later on this spawned many offshoot religions (the Orthodox Church, the Church Of England) that have similar rituals.

Rome has, throughout its 2,000+ year history, claimed spiritual supremacy over the world, first in its pagan Pontifex Maximus and then in its Papal... Pontifex Maximus!

ALL of the earth has drunk of Rome's wine, in some form or another. LATIN America is called LATIN America for a reason. North America (where are the Aztecs, etc? Wiped out thanks to the Spanish loyal to the Catholic Church).

Europe? Ha.. where do I start? The Dark Ages, crusades, inquisitions, burnings at the stake, Holy Roman Empire, etc.

Asia? The imperial cults, imposition of Nicene Christianity, not as affected as the Western world but still affected.

The middle east? Crusades for one.

Rome has been a harlot, spreading her pagan idolatry (as the home of the gods), and later spreading her corrupt version of Christianity which in turn, spawned other harlots.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-21-2011 02:28 AM

Interpertum,

We are living at the back end of 2000 yrs of christians trying to understand this book. All through the ages people have tried to see what piece of thier 'times' fit. This is totally natural and fair.

All these ideas that are really from the past just don't fill my heart
with clarity. Regular people could not possibly have imagined this industrial age a few 100 years ago.

So let's keep going with the cities. You believe she is one city we measure, but since her name is linked with the first city what happened there and why? Did they not have one uniting language?
They could thus work as one large united body of people and God said nothing would be impossible for them.

If we look at the earth from space at night all the lights make the earth look the same as when we fly over a single city at night ....the whole earth is now covered and connected with long roads, air lines and shipping routes.
Is language a problem anymore? We seem to be able to buy stuff from China easy as pie!

What IS a city anyways?

So I for one have thrown out the baby with the bath water and I don't look to any of the 'traditional' views as I once did.

When I look at how the creeds of Christianity has lead believers to have thier faith like a fairy tale.....I know in my heart something is WRONG.

What is happening right now in the real world all around us is what is written in the book of Revelation. Our cities, armies, machines, fossil fuels, polluting the air, water, land, cutting down all the trees and eating up all the earth like locust.

THAT FITS

So I hold that she has climaxed with 'industrial civilization'

Digging

PS Note Rev 18:19 "...Woe, woe, the great city, in which ALL who had ships at sea became rich from her wealth..."

Look at these pictures of the global shiiping lanes....
http://www.google.ca/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1093&bih=499&q=map+of+global+shipping+lanes&gbv=2&oq=map+of+global+shipping+lanes&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=2562l12710l0l14458l30l30l1l15l3l0l337l3433l0.2.10.2l14


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - man hu - 07-21-2011 07:57 AM

An interesting side point digging is that King Neb was supposed to have his name on every brick in "Babylon the Great" that he built.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-21-2011 07:53 PM

Hi Digging

digging Wrote:
We are living at the back end of 2000 yrs of christians trying to understand this book. All through the ages people have tried to see what piece of thier 'times' fit. This is totally natural and fair.


I agree that it is natural to want to do that. Ultimately, what matters is the intention of the Author.

Did God want us to draw our own meaning from Revelation, based on whatever time period we lived in? Well, I have to conclude that it's sufficiently ambiguous to allow for this.

However, each generation has also probably read a little too much into it, which is why, for example, Russell was CERTAIN that the world would come to its climax in 1914. Wasn't it foretold in the prophets?

Well, no... he read into the prophets (and Revelation) what he wanted to see.

If we're not careful, we fall into the same trap. Look at how excited this forum gets every time there's a major disaster... could it be the 4th trumpet... the 5th bowl...?

Some call it "keeping on the watch", but there's a fine line between doing that, and crying wolf. There is a reason many non-Christians mock Christian predictions. Sure, we'll be right one day... just like the stopped clock is right twice a day.

I'd suggest true prophecy is a bit more effective than a stopped clock!

Quote:
What is happening right now in the real world all around us is what is written in the book of Revelation. Our cities, armies, machines, fossil fuels, polluting the air, water, land, cutting down all the trees and eating up all the earth like locust.

THAT FITS


This is the same reasoning Russell used. Remember, he was convinced that Ezekiel foretold the locomotive. Maybe... but I suspect he (and you) saw what you wanted to see.

Personally, I think it is better to interpret the symbols of Revelation using the rest of the Bible. He is the Source, so He knows its meaning. It is crammed full of references from the Old Testamant, so I'd suggest to you it's hinting to us to look THERE ;)

Also, if it's about the industrial revolution, of what use was that to the 1st century congregations of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea?

Why would they need to keep awake... observe the things written... not seal up the words... if it was about something over 1,800+ years into their future?

Essentially, you're implying it was a USELESS book for the first 1,800 years of its history... or at least, if the poor souls back then had some different interpretation, they were harmlessly deluded.

I'm suggesting something different. I'm suggesting that it had the same core meaning in the 1st, as in the 21st century... because the entities and characters are essentially the same as they've always been.

True, some things had not yet happened in the 1st century... but the key players were already around, to allow the 1st century Christians to see the rough outline of the future, and assure them of God's ultimate victory.

If nothing else, I think we can all agree that Revelation is the ultimate and best "Happily ever after" ending to any book ever written!


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-21-2011 09:40 PM

Yes Interpretum,

Let someone JUST use the bible and the natural world around them which they can observe with thier own eyes and ears and compair that to the scriptures and see what they might learn rather than from a million and one history books.

Much of what is in Revelation is very much about what is happening right now.

As for the key players Rez has already pointed out they arrived right at the beginning in Eden and then with Cain. I only said Babylon is at her zenith now with industrial civilization.

There are all kinds of government in the world and all kinds of different cultures, yet a common theme is 'civilization' everywhere.

She rides the beast.


Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-22-2011 05:31 PM

Digging, sis, your points about cities and civilization are thought-provoking. Again, the push to define -- What is a city?

Here are a few more of my thoughts:

There are only two cities to consider here. Thank you for referencing the city of God that Abraham looked forward to (Hebrews 11:8-10). You beat me to it. I'd like to take that scripture a little further so here's the whole thing:

"By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, although not knowing where he was going. By faith he resided as an alien in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, and dwelt in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, the builder and maker of which [city] is God. By faith also Sarah herself received power to conceive seed, even when she was past the age limit, since she esteemed him faithful who had promised. Hence also from one [man], and him as good as dead, there were born [children] just as the stars of heaven for multitude and as the sands that are by the seaside, innumerable. In faith all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. For those who say such things give evidence that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. And yet, if they had indeed kept remembering that [place] from which they had gone forth, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God, for he has made a city ready for them." -- Hebrews 11:8-16

Then, in the very next chapter, Hebrews 12:22-24 says of this city made by God:

"But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s [blood]."

From a consideration of these scriptures, Abraham left Ur, a man-made city with many conveniences (including plumbing) to follow God's direction to the land of promise. He spent the rest of his life living in tents and didn't get to see the fulfillment of the promise but he saw it by faith.

We too see that city of God from afar. We too are aliens and temporary residents as we await the fulfillment of the promise. And we know that the promise is connected to the new covenant. (Galatians 4:21-26)

Once we've got the city of God squared away, it becomes easier to understand the other great city -- Babylon the Great.

While Abraham was called out of Ur to follow Yahweh's direction, Cain became a wanderer for an entirely different reason. God decreed that because he slaughtered his brother, his agricultural endeavors would be fruitless. I'm guessing that city life made it easier for him to survive because he could get someone else to grow his food for him.

As a side point, Abraham's nephew Lot, by choosing land close to Sodom, eventually got sucked into city life to his detriment.

I'm not saying that all city life is necessarily bad or evil, but it does have its distractions and problems. And I'm speaking about man-made cities, here. By examining some of the features of man-made cities perhaps we can get a bead on BTG.


.....more later....I gotta ice me head. This heat-wave's a killer!

rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-22-2011 10:34 PM

Hi rez

Interesting thoughts.

Question for you:

Since Paul (in Hebrews 11) was talking about Old Testament figures, what did he mean when he said this? i.e.

"But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God, for he has made a city ready for them."

OK, you made a convincing case that the "place" is New Jerusalem, but in what sense? Are Abraham and the patriarchs in heaven, or destined for heaven at some point?

I guess I understand the spiritual point Paul is making, but when Abraham and the patriarchs are resurrected, if they haven't been already (I personally believe they have, but this is only a minor point)... where will they be? Where will their city be? Does "one belonging to heaven" mean it's IN heaven?

I ask for two reasons. Partly because it's a genuine point of interest. Two, because it relates to what you said here...

Quote:
Once we've got the city of God squared away, it becomes easier to understand the other great city -- Babylon the Great.


If "New Jerusalem" does, at some point, become an actual EARTHLY city (I'd suggest there's a lot of evidence to suggest this), might this imply that Babylon The Great is also an earthly city?

You can see, therefore, that it's pretty useful to know Abraham's "final destination", as it were.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-23-2011 07:52 PM

Dear Interpertum,

I believe this single study topic did more for helping me that many, many others. Reading all the vs's that talk about Abraham and what was promised him and how all believers both Jews and Christians have the same promise offered to them as did Abraham.

Recall how he was willing to offer his son. WHY?

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say ? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

So WHAT did he believe from God? YHWH told him a nation would come through Isaac. Thus Abraham was showing he believed ALSO in the resurrection, that YHWH would bring him back to life to become the father of a nation.

Acts 7:4 "Then he left the land of the Chaldeans and settled in Haran. From there, after his father died, God had him move to this country in which you are now living. 5 "But He gave him no inheritance in it, not even a foot of ground, and yet, even when he had no child, He promised that HE WOULD GIVE IT TO HIM AS A POSSESSION, AND TO HIS DESCENDANTS AFTER HIM.

Notice the words "this country in which you are now living"

Clearly a real place on earth where people live where even sinners can live for a time. The only way for YHWH's promise to be kept is for YHWH to resurrected Abraham back as a person living on earth to receive his inheritance.

Also Romans 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith

Gal 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Everyone who has faith then is a child of Abraham and can receive of the single promise made to him by God, everlasting life on earth under God's divine blessing.

Is not God's Kingdom going to one day fill the whole world? So then the new city also will fill the whole world.....

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-23-2011 08:20 PM

Dear Rez,

I first of all want to just thank you for even taking the time to consider this possible meaning for her. Not to change the topic but I feel it's related. I've mentioned this before once or twice. If we notice how New Jerusalem is described

Rev 21:16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width ; and he measured the city with the rod, twelve thousand stadia ; its length and width and height are equal.

How do we define the phyical world?

By three dimensions, length, width & height.

So I feel this is a very strong clue that this city is very much about life in the phyical 3 dimensional world. However rather than a city gauged by buildings and roads it's gauged by the PEOPLE who are spiritual stones of this city, all connected by thier faith and love for God.

So to futher contrast the two cities. If God's New Jerusalem will fill the whole earth then this "Babylon the Great" might be doing the same thing having the opposite effect on the earth and it's people.

Cities are the MOST destructive thing we've every come up with and they are totally unsustainable, totally. The way the natural ecosystem functions any where it just can't handle such huge dead spaces continually sucking in natural elements and then releasing huge burdens of waste.



Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-23-2011 09:02 PM

Hey dears,
I'll get back to this thread tomorrow -- dying to 'cause there's some really good questions here! But just been swamped today.

love,
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-24-2011 07:55 PM

Hey Terp,

I'll do my best to answer your questions below.

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi rez

Interesting thoughts.

Question for you:

Since Paul (in Hebrews 11) was talking about Old Testament figures, what did he mean when he said this? i.e.

"But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God, for he has made a city ready for them."

OK, you made a convincing case that the "place" is New Jerusalem, but in what sense? Are Abraham and the patriarchs in heaven, or destined for heaven at some point?


New Jerusalem, which is an offshoot of Heavenly Jerusalem, is the city that will bring salvation to mankind. It's symbolized, I believe, by the stone (New Jerusalem) cut out of a mountain (Heavenly Jerusalem) that eventually grows to fill the whole earth.

"You kept on looking until a stone was cut out (“Cut out,” MSy; LXXVgc, “cut out of a mountain.”) not by hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and of molded clay and crushed them. At that time the iron, the molded clay, the copper, the silver and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that no trace at all was found of them. And as for the stone that struck the image, it became a large mountain and filled the whole earth." -- Daniel 2:34-35

Think of the New Jerusalem as a task force commissioned by Yahweh to get a job done -- that job being the destruction of the old regime and the bringing in of the new heavens and new earth. There's a transfer of power that takes place here.

"This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration (New Jerusalem) at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him, in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs, in that we were foreordained according to the purpose of him who operates all things according to the way his will counsels, that we should serve for the praise of his glory, we who have been first to hope in the Christ. But YOU also hoped in him after YOU heard the word of truth, the good news about YOUR salvation. By means of him also, after YOU believed, YOU were sealed with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing by a ransom [God’s] own possession, to his glorious praise." -- Ephesians 1:8-14

Interpretum Wrote:
I guess I understand the spiritual point Paul is making, but when Abraham and the patriarchs are resurrected, if they haven't been already (I personally believe they have, but this is only a minor point)... where will they be? Where will their city be? Does "one belonging to heaven" mean it's IN heaven?

I ask for two reasons. Partly because it's a genuine point of interest. Two, because it relates to what you said here...

Quote:
Once we've got the city of God squared away, it becomes easier to understand the other great city -- Babylon the Great.


If "New Jerusalem" does, at some point, become an actual EARTHLY city (I'd suggest there's a lot of evidence to suggest this), might this imply that Babylon The Great is also an earthly city?

You can see, therefore, that it's pretty useful to know Abraham's "final destination", as it were.


Heavenly Jerusalem doesn't come down to earth the way New Jerusalem does. Heavenly Zion is our mother and our names are inscribed in her according to Hebrew 12:22.

New Jerusalem, the Lamb's bride, however, is mentioned as coming down from heaven three times in Revelation:

"The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’" -- Revelation 3:12-13

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” -- Revelation 21:1-4

"And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls which were full of the seven last plagues, and he spoke with me and said: “Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” So he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, as a jasper stone shining crystal-clear. It had a great and lofty wall and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names were inscribed which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. On the east were three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. The wall of the city also had twelve foundation stones, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." -- Revelation 21:10-14

I gather from the above scriptures and others that New Jerusalem will not be a man-made city. It has aspects that are completely unearthly and I could go on and on about its features -- one of my favorite topics.

As for Abraham and other pre-Christian faithfuls, I believe they don't exist in linear time but have gained aionian zoe or divine time/life. That's a very difficult concept to think about seeing that our existence is linear at present. We think of them as sleeping. Yahweh sees them as living because he isn't bound by past, present and future they way we are.

As to where they are/will be I believe that Psalm 87:1-7 expresses it best:

"His foundation is in the holy mountains.  Jehovah is more in love with the gates of Zion Than with all the tabernacles of Jacob.  Glorious things are being spoken about you, O city of the [true] God. Se′lah. I shall make mention of Ra′hab and Babylon as among those knowing me; Here are Phi·lis′ti·a and Tyre, together with Cush: “This is one who was born there.”  And respecting Zion it will be said: “Each and every one was born in her.” And the Most High himself will firmly establish her.  Jehovah himself will declare, when recording the peoples: “This is one who was born there.” Se′lah.  There will also be singers as well as dancers of circle dances: “All my springs are in you.”

The New Jerusalem has twelve gates, each with a name of the twelve tribes. Everyone who has washed his robes in the blood of the Lamb can enter by the gates.

"And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life [will]." -- Revelation 21:25-27

"Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.’" -- Revelation 22:14-15

There will be land allotments according to tribes with the alien resident sharing in the allotment as Ezekiel 47:21-23 promises:

“And YOU must apportion this land to yourselves, to the twelve tribes of Israel. And it must occur that YOU should allot it for inheritance to yourselves and to the alien residents who are residing as aliens in YOUR midst, who have become father to sons in the midst of YOU. And they must become to YOU like a native among the sons of Israel. With YOU people they will fall [by lot] into an inheritance in the midst of the tribes of Israel. And it must occur that in the tribe with which the alien resident has taken up residence as an alien, there is where YOU should give his inheritance,” is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah."

So, on the basis of the above scriptures, Abraham and others like him will be able to dwell in their beloved land and enter the holy city at will.

Hope that answers your questions somewhat, Terp.

cheers,
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-24-2011 08:33 PM

digging Wrote:
Dear Rez,

I first of all want to just thank you for even taking the time to consider this possible meaning for her. Not to change the topic but I feel it's related. I've mentioned this before once or twice. If we notice how New Jerusalem is described

Rev 21:16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width ; and he measured the city with the rod, twelve thousand stadia ; its length and width and height are equal.

How do we define the phyical world?

By three dimensions, length, width & height.

So I feel this is a very strong clue that this city is very much about life in the phyical 3 dimensional world.


Did you notice that the measurement of the jaspar wall was different (smaller) than the measurement of the golden city?

Do you know what a tessaract is? From Wikipedia:

Quote:
In geometry, the tesseract, also called an 8-cell or regular octachoron or cubic prism, is the four-dimensional analog of the cube. The tesseract is to the cube as the cube is to the square. Just as the surface of the cube consists of 6 square faces, the hypersurface of the tesseract consists of 8 cubical cells. The tesseract is one of the six convex regular 4-polytopes.

A generalization of the cube to dimensions greater than three is called a "hypercube", "n-cube" or "measure polytope". The tesseract is the four-dimensional hypercube, or 4-cube.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word tesseract was coined and first used in 1888 by Charles Howard Hinton in his book A New Era of Thought, from the Greek τέσσερεις ακτίνες ("four rays"), referring to the four lines from each vertex to other vertices. Some people have called the same figure a tetracube, and also simply a hypercube (although the term hypercube is also used with dimensions greater than 4).


'Course, if you've ever watched Dr. Who, you'll remember that the little phone booth thingy he travels in is WAY bigger on the inside. So, I'm thinking that the wall of the New Jerusalem exists in our dimension but once you're inside it's more like an entrance of sorts to heaven. In other words, New Jerusalem is an interface to heaven itself.

digging Wrote:
However rather than a city gauged by buildings and roads it's gauged by the PEOPLE who are spiritual stones of this city, all connected by thier faith and love for God.


Yes, indeedy digging. The ones who are the actual 'bride' of the lamb will be a permanent fixture in the city like Revelation 3:12 says:

“‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine."

Others belonging to Christ will be able to come and go like the Levites, teaching and bringing healing to the nations till all Israel is saved.

digging Wrote:
So to futher contrast the two cities. If God's New Jerusalem will fill the whole earth then this "Babylon the Great" might be doing the same thing having the opposite effect on the earth and it's people.


Amen to that! New Jerusalem (a city from God) will bring salvation to all who wish it. Babylon the Great (a city from Satan) is geared to bring death and destruction to all, whether they like it or not. Our Father has other plans for us.

"O Jehovah, you are my God. I exalt you, I laud your name, for you have done wonderful things, counsels from early times, in faithfulness, in trustworthiness. For you have made a city a pile of stones, a fortified town a crumbling ruin, a dwelling tower of strangers to be no city, which will not be rebuilt even to time indefinite. That is why those who are a strong people will glorify you; the town of the tyrannical nations, they will fear you. For you have become a stronghold to the lowly one, a stronghold to the poor one in the distress that he has, a refuge from the rainstorm, a shade from the heat, when the blast of the tyrannical ones is like a rainstorm against a wall. Like the heat in a waterless country, the noise of strangers you subdue, the heat with the shadow of a cloud. The melody itself of the tyrannical ones becomes suppressed." -- Isaiah 25:1-5

digging Wrote:
Cities are the MOST destructive thing we've every come up with and they are totally unsustainable, totally. The way the natural ecosystem functions any where it just can't handle such huge dead spaces continually sucking in natural elements and then releasing huge burdens of waste.


I'd just like to amend that slightly and say that this is true with man-made cities...which is our bitter experience.

Come, Lord Jesus!

rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-24-2011 09:02 PM

There ya have it! Proof positive that "Heaven" is a higher dimention, and will be apparent and accessible here on Earth by humans. That means you (all).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtSNStVW81M


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-25-2011 01:35 AM

Ah a kindered spirit who likes to think about New Jerusalem!

I had not heard about that other kind of cube formation I will think on that for a while though. I agree that the city is like a contact point for heaven.

The one thing I did noticed about the measurements in Rev 21:16 is the true wording is "twelve thousand stadia" and in Rev 21:17
"one hundred forty-four cubits."

Being that these are clearly connected to the number 144,000, which I feel is a number symbolizing the firstfruits of believers. I felt these numbers are hinting at the fact that the city is not definded by a fixed place or buildings BUT rather where a righteous believer is, the city is. THEY are the city, the city moves where they move. Just like how Jesus was the Temple.

I perceive to be in the city means to be under Angelic protection because as it reads Rev21:12 "...and at the gates twelve angels..."

This way all the righteous members of the Bride can disperse all over the earth so as to help call and find all the rest of the lost sheep. How else can mankind be restored? If all the righteous stay in a small contained place how would they help all the other people who still need to hear the call of God?

New Jerusalem is very much about a spiritual connection with YHWH so then Babylon the Great is very much the opposite & must be based on the physical only. Which is what takes me back to the human built world that is so self serving to the flesh.

We have built a destructive nonliving system that the majority of mankind is now dependant on rather than having them directly dependant on the natural world and thus God.


I have really been enjoying this!

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-25-2011 01:11 PM

digging Wrote:
Being that these are clearly connected to the number 144,000, which I feel is a number symbolizing the firstfruits of believers. I felt these numbers are hinting at the fact that the city is not definded by a fixed place or buildings BUT rather where a righteous believer is, the city is. THEY are the city, the city moves where they move. Just like how Jesus was the Temple.


digging,

Yes, I believe that too.

That the faithfull slave is scattered all over the earth.

These will end up being the New Jerusalem.

The Apostle Peter understood they were in the process of building that City:

1 Peter 2:4-6
4 Coming to him as to a living stone, rejected, it is true, by men, but chosen, precious, with God, 5 YOU yourselves also as living stones are being built up a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it is contained in Scripture: “Look! I am laying in Zion a stone, chosen, a foundation cornerstone, precious; and no one exercising faith in it will by any means come to disappointment.”

That begs an answer however, about the evil slave.

What Jesus Christ said in the Gospels suggests that the evil slave will have to fit into this end time scenario somehow.

Do the evil slave know that they are the evil slave?

I suspect the evil slave also read the bible and actually believe they are building the same thing the Apostle Peter described above.

What city though, are the evil slave building?


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-25-2011 01:23 PM

Hi abe, I can't help but think about the connection of the number 144K with the city, the Great Pyramid with 144K stones at its base, and the WTS who alone has applied 144k to themselves and built much of their dogma on the Great Pyramid. The WTS brags about its world wide organization and its multi language ability. They certainly could be said to have built a self sustaining "city". ...Connections???


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-25-2011 01:52 PM

e-magine Wrote:
Hi abe, I can't help but think about the connection of the number 144K with the city, the Great Pyramid with 144K stones at its base, and the WTS who alone has applied 144k to themselves and built much of their dogma on the Great Pyramid. The WTS brags about its world wide organization and its multi language ability. They certainly could be said to have built a self sustaining "city". ...Connections???


e-magine,

Yep, the WTS really do believe they are building the exact same city that the Apostle Peter described.

Thing is, all the other Christian religions believe the same thing too.

So yes, all the other connections some of which you described above have to be examined.

Do you think it is possible however, that the city which the evil slave believe they are building is Babylon The Great?

Examining the connections would be more fruitful once that question has a good answer.


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-25-2011 02:00 PM

What city are they building.... Well if the righteous are spread out all over the earth also being spread out in time, since many have died. The the opposite city is also all over the earth and spread through time.

We started with a few cities here and there, many of which have failed, but slowly now we have filled the whole world with a global network of connected cities.

At this time 'Babylon the Great' fits this event better than any other. Humanity united in opposition to God trying to build their own guarded living arrangement on earth.

Digging


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-25-2011 02:18 PM

Abe, will you quit trying to hijack this thread to fit your agenda. You've already got other threads on your theme of good slave-evil slave so don't be a thread hog.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-25-2011 02:58 PM

Re: "Do you think it is possible however, that the city which the evil slave believe they are building is Babylon The Great?"

The conclusion I'm coming to is that exactly! The evil slave believe that their master is delaying, and they are not looking after HIS house,
but are building their own. and they are beating their fellow slaves that are not part of their 'city".
Religions generally don't get alone, but the WTS is the epitome of beating on other religions! and they brag about their 144K foundation
stones, unlike any other religion.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - ablebodiedman - 07-25-2011 03:03 PM

Resolute Wrote:
Abe, will you quit trying to hijack this thread to fit your agenda. You've already got other threads on your theme of good slave-evil slave so don't be a thread hog.


Rez,

My agenda is to find the truth.

I personally think that the evil slave has to somewhere fit in with the end time scenario decribed in the book of Revelation.

You did initiate this thread and welcomed controversial discussion.

If you want to exclude this controversial idea from the discussion then I will cease.


In Christ

abe


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-25-2011 03:16 PM

Controversial discussion does not include hijacking, Abe....so quit already. I know where you're trying to take this thread and you've had plenty of say on your agenda in other threads.

I'm requesting you to leave this thread to those who wish to explore a different thought than yours.

So, yes, please don't post on this thread again.

rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-25-2011 03:35 PM

Hey Digging,

First of all I'd like to respond to this comment:

Quote:
New Jerusalem is very much about a spiritual connection with YHWH so then Babylon the Great is very much the opposite & must be based on the physical only. Which is what takes me back to the human built world that is so self serving to the flesh.


Would you be willing to consider another possibility for Babylon the Great?

If: New Jerusalem is about a spiritual connection with YHWH

Then: Babylon the Great is about a spiritual connection with Satan.

The reason for this is because Satan and his immediate cabal is in the spirit realm.

I'd definitely say though, that these spirit persons use the flesh and its desires to corrupt Yahweh's earthly creation -- as well as the heavens.

That is why there is joy in heaven when they are cast out. But woe for the earth.

If the entry points of the New Jerusalem are the twelve gates guarded by angels, then is it possible that Babylon the Great as a spiritual entity has entry points on earth as well?

Remember that man hu said earlier that the original name for Babel is "Gate of God". So, along this line is an interesting point of history:

Most, if not all of the world's big cathedrals are built on sites where pagan worship was centered originally. They followed ley lines in positioning them. These ley lines were thought to intersect at places of spiritual power and may be points of entry for Satan's spirit cronies.

The fact that these power positions were often found on hills may help to explain the "worshiping on the high places" that infected the nation of Israel throughout its history.

If in fact there are gateways or portals to the spirit world/dimension that are used by wicked spirits, it's my thought that there are humans who are closely aligned with these through occult means, and who are attempting to corrupt and control human society.

Interesting point about cities also is that they often contained a cathedral.

You also said:

Quote:
I agree that the city is like a contact point for heaven.


If New Jerusalem will be a contact point for heaven/spirit realm/dimension, and if Babylon the Great is a multi-contact point (through cathedrals on ley lines) for heaven/spirit realm/dimension -- what is really happening when Satan and his angels get thrown out of heaven and into earth time/space/dimension as per Revelation 12?

Do check the Greek preposition used in the text at Revelation 12:7-9. I'll quote the NWT version and then discuss their change of preposition as well as their explanation.

"And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."

The WT says that Satan was cast into the "vicinity" of the earth.

The operative wording here is "down to". The preposition is the Greek word "eis" which means "into".

This may be the reason that Christendom has generally pictured Satan as being underground -- in the physical earth --hell. They had no real conception of a time/space continuum. I have some thoughts on this which I've touched on before but I'll save it for another post.

Let me know your thoughts,
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-25-2011 03:39 PM

e-magine Wrote:
There ya have it! Proof positive that "Heaven" is a higher dimention, and will be apparent and accessible here on Earth by humans. That means you (all).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtSNStVW81M


Thanks for the link and your thoughts, e-magine. I'm not mathematically inclined and the thing weirds me out. Ahhhh....we're such linear beings.

BTW, the other name for a tessaract is a tardis.

regards,
rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Resolute - 07-25-2011 04:03 PM

Oh, and many additional thanks "e". Right nearby to the youtube link you posted I found the hypersphere animation which, as nearly as I can conceive, pictures non-linear or heavenly time. Here it is:



Does this bring anything to mind?

rez


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - e-magine - 07-25-2011 04:07 PM

Interesting thought about the ley lines, and that they intersect and originate at the great Pyramid. The pyramid is believed to be a portal to another dimention by many who study it, and Babylon was "God's Gate" (satan's).
My thought is that BTG is much more then false religion. It is satan's counterfeit kingdom; one world government and one religion. This is the goal of the Illuminati. (enlightened ones). The UN seems to be the most obvious manifestation of this. Religion does ride the back of that beast!
Noteworthy is that the WTS across the river, also promotes one world religion, in God's name of course. They have made clear that after Armageddon, they will be the center of world operations.
I'm not saying that the WTS is BTG, but it's interesting to note their connection with the Gt Pyramid, the 144K, and their connection with the UN. thinking....


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - gogh - 07-25-2011 07:23 PM

...and...and.....the "NEW WORLD" Translation!!! :coffeeread:


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-26-2011 03:04 AM

Hmmm,

I see what you are thinking, and the spirits/demons do add a difficult element.

Consider this both 'cities' have people in them. It's really about the people.

One city has no major visible buildings and is rather spread out, yet the people are linked in purpose, goals and values based on higher spiritual motivations.

The other city is also filled with people and is filled with all kinds of building and endless attractions because the purpose of this city is to distract everyone from having a true higher motivation but rather is designed to totally focus on the gradification and comforts of the flesh. The people are close together so then 'sin' can spread almost like germs.

One is for spiritual based lives the other for fleshly based lives.

Now you mentioned the question about pagan worship on the 'high places'. I agree that people think these places might have meaning or have special 'power', we can only really wonder. However the demons do want to gain access to one 'high' place and that is the heart of man, the place that YHWH is ment to dwell.

Everything that is truly evil we judge it so because of what the phyical results are. The Devils evil starts with thoughts but enters the world when translated into evil physical actions. That's how he gets evil into the world.

Gods city will help each person become better, more loving, caring, giving, the phyical world will be blessed because the spirit of God will enter the world and be translated into good phyical actions throught his people.

Satan's city entices each person to be egocentric, trying to get them to seek total gradification of the phyical body in every way imaginable to the destruction of themselves, others and the earth.

I feel it's important what is said in Rev 4:11

"Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power ; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."

Then Rev 11:18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

These vs's show a strong value to the physical earth, because YHWH is the creator of it! Also, because these vs's are in revelation it's a pointer as to what the issues are based on.

One more point, Satans city is here now, God's city is coming and will have a real physical effect on the earth when it does arrive, the opposite of what our cities are having now.

One via negative actions the other positive actions, but really it's the negative and positive actions of the People.

So the cities/towns themselves are like a tool/channel the devil uses to influence and control mankind. We use them to govern ourselves.

I think Civilization might be the true opposite to the Kingdom of God.

Digging

The fact that it's illegal for a person to walk out into the wild and build a home and live free. They MUST live within the 'system', they must pay tax. A fox can build a den where he likes, so can a bird build a nest, but a person is not allowed.


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - Interpretum - 07-26-2011 08:29 PM

gogh Wrote:
...and...and.....the "NEW WORLD" Translation!!! :coffeeread:


Don't forget, God's also rootin' for a new world order.

"For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart." (Isaiah 65:17)

By the way, isn't that a beautiful scripture?


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - gogh - 07-26-2011 08:45 PM

..affirmative.

:thumbsup:


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - isomam - 07-26-2011 11:42 PM

Interpretum Wrote:

gogh Wrote:
...and...and.....the "NEW WORLD" Translation!!! :coffeeread:


Don't forget, God's also rootin' for a new world order.

"For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart." (Isaiah 65:17)

By the way, isn't that a beautiful scripture?


roger that! :thumbup:


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - isomam - 07-26-2011 11:44 PM

gogh Wrote:
..affirmative.

:thumbsup:


i'll see your "affirmative," and raise you two "amen"-s. :clap:


RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts - digging - 07-31-2011 04:34 AM

Here is just another small point to add for thought.

Recall how the area around Iraq and old Babylon is called,

"The Cradle of Civilization"

Digging