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The Mark of the Beast
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PropMin
TheLeperKing


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Post: #31
RE: The Mark of the Beast

Donbo,

Theoretically an Elephant could hang off the edge of a cliff with only its tail tied to a daisy.


Have you actually read Revelation Chapter 13?

I'm starting to think not; if not, then we have not, a basis for conversation.

:cheer:

p----?----m


"When you stand before God you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do 'thus', or that 'virtue wasn't convenient at the time'", this will not suffice" - King Baldwin IV, 1184 A.D.

http://propmin.blogspot.com/
03-09-2007 05:40 PM
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donbodo
Tell me that again...


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Post: #32
RE: The Mark of the Beast

And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and upon its horns ten diadems, but upon its heads blasphemous names. (v. 1)

And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. (v. 6)

And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast. (v. 14)


"Learn the rule: 'Do not go beyond the things that are written,' in order that you may not be puffed up individually in favor of the one against the other" (1 Cor. 4:6).
03-09-2007 06:31 PM
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PropMin
TheLeperKing


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Post: #33
RE: The Mark of the Beast

Db,

I'd really like to bust your chops on this topic, my man, and some day I will, but for for now other pressing matters have intervened.

Please see my "I need Facts" thread; perhaps you can help.


:cheer:

p---;-)---m


"When you stand before God you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do 'thus', or that 'virtue wasn't convenient at the time'", this will not suffice" - King Baldwin IV, 1184 A.D.

http://propmin.blogspot.com/
03-10-2007 01:22 PM
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warmthofthesun
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Post: #34
RE: The Mark of the Beast

Do you have the mark of the beast or the mark of your father and his son?

Read carefully Revelation 13 AND 14.

Immediately after describing the mark of the best, John states:
1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

Do you imagine God is going to plant some chip in your head that marks you as his?

The revelation of Jesus Christ is a symbolic book. Do some thinking people.
Do you have the mind of Christ or of the beast?


"But if one who has hate for you is in need of food or of drink, give it to him, for in so doing you will put coals of fire on his head. Do not let evil overcome you, but overcome evil by good."
04-12-2007 07:00 PM
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draka
Omnia mutantur nihil interit


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Post: #35
RE: The Mark of the Beast

warmthofthesun Wrote:
Do you have the mark of the beast or the mark of your father and his son?

Read carefully Revelation 13 AND 14.

Immediately after describing the mark of the best, John states:
1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

Do you imagine God is going to plant some chip in your head that marks you as his?

The revelation of Jesus Christ is a symbolic book. Do some thinking people.
Do you have the mind of Christ or of the beast?


In fact, if I remember right, the mark of the 144,000 comes before the Mark of the beast :thinking: , correct me if I'm wrong, of course, but oddly enough there are plenty of people who wouldn't want to get marked because they would be afraid of this "mark of the beast", not taking into consideration that the first marks will be for the people of God..meaning even if people believe with their whole hearts:heartbeat:, their fear would no doubt hold them back, meaning they would have a lack of faith in that which is marking them. If this is backwards thinking, then please correct me once again, but suspicion at the Mark of the Beast :assimilation: might stop some from believing and trusting enough to get the mark of God put upon them...:shocked:


Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum
04-13-2007 03:26 PM
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warmthofthesun
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Post: #36
RE: The Mark of the Beast

Hi Draka,

What I was trying to get across is that both marks symbolize something. They are not a material mark. God isn't worried about what we use to do our shopping. The beast mark is attained by following the kingdoms of the earth and sinful nature. The mark of the Father and the Son is attained by following them and not living to the fleshly nature -- living for his kingdom.

People are strongly deluded by waiting around for these marks to make an appearance on earth, when for the last 2000 years they have been a reality.

This is why we see in Revelation 20 that those that do not accept the mark reign with Christ. Now it seems obvious then that the mark and the beast must stretch longer than some 3 year period or else none of the saints that have lived before would reign with Christ.

Andrew


"But if one who has hate for you is in need of food or of drink, give it to him, for in so doing you will put coals of fire on his head. Do not let evil overcome you, but overcome evil by good."
04-13-2007 03:34 PM
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draka
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Post: #37
RE: The Mark of the Beast

warmthofthesun Wrote:
Hi Draka,

What I was trying to get across is that both marks symbolize something. They are not a material mark. God isn't worried about what we use to do our shopping. The beast mark is attained by following the kingdoms of the earth and sinful nature. The mark of the Father and the Son is attained by following them and not living to the fleshly nature -- living for his kingdom.

People are strongly deluded by waiting around for these marks to make an appearance on earth, when for the last 2000 years they have been a reality.

This is why we see in Revelation 20 that those that do not accept the mark reign with Christ. Now it seems obvious then that the mark and the beast must stretch longer than some 3 year period or else none of the saints that have lived before would reign with Christ.

Andrew


BruisedReed Wrote:
For instance, I am not so sure that this 'mark' would be indicative of a 'an inward spiritual struggle' ... or 'our christian conduct' ... for how would such things PREVENT us being able to 'buy or sell' as it mentions ...?...

This 'image' also want to affect people's EVERYDAY LIVES ... what they 'buy and sell' ... .:(

It would also appear that this 'mark' would be something SEEN ... visible to the eye ...

The Greek word for 'mark' is charagma which means ...

Strong's ...
a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue):- graven, mark

Vine's
denotes a stamp, impress, translated "mark"

That this 'mark' MAY be something that is 'seen' is that it seems to be mentioned in THREE different ways according these verses ...

1. a mark
2. the name of the wild beast
3. the number of the wild beast


So, it must be something PRETTY SPECIFIC to be mentioned so 'specifically' and in such 'variety' ... seeking to perhaps appeal to different types of individuals?

No matter what this 'mark' may prove to be ... we DO know that it will involve our COMPROMISING ourselves in some way to someone looking for WORSHIP and POWER ... something ONLY belongs to our God Jehovah!...

Luv to all ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:


I don't think is worried about the way that we do our shopping, but if we need to have the mark of the beast to use the markets than that affects us in a great way. One tactic of war is to attack foodstuffs and supplies. And by us needing the mark of the beastie, Satan does just that.:devil: Indirect warfare against our bodies and our spirits :viking:. I do believe that it is a physical mark, and that because of the stigma of modern society in the belief that if it hasn't happened yet it will either never happen or has all ready happened or is going on right under our noses. :detective: The things that are to happen before the marks come maybe be starting in our modern world, but we will never be fully ready for it, nor will we probably understand everything when it happens. I do not know if the mark of god would be physical because it speaks of being sealed within the foreheads of the 144,000, whereas the mark of the beast is found upon the foreheads and right hands of those ho have accepted it. One mark might be visible and the other either an abstract or something more.


Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum
04-13-2007 03:55 PM
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rus virgil
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Post: #38
RE: The Mark of the Beast

Dears , the following Elijah's words fit to the present situation :

21. " Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him."
      But the people said nothing. "      1 Kings 18.

For a long time God's people worshipped wood-idols .
What is a wood idol ?

8. "They are all senseless and foolish;
      they are taught by worthless wooden idols. "
8.  "They are both stupid and foolish;
      the instruction of idols is but wood! "   Jeremiah 10.

Any human interpretation (or according to human's will or science) of God's word is a wooden idol !

So , anyone worshiping God according to any human interpretation of God's word , he is in fact a worshiper of wooden idol , even calling himself an "Jehovah Witness" or brother of Christ !

But we are teached by Jesus to worship the Father "in spirit and truth" !
What does it means ?  
23But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.   24.  God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

To worship God in spirit , it means to have the understanding of His word , in spirit
So , what does it means undertanding in spirit ?
  If "God is spirit" , understanding "in spirit" means understanding according to His will !

Jesus told us :
12.  "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth,[/b] for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16.

What is the truth ?          Jesus answers :
17. "Sanctify them in the truth; [b]your word is truth
.

So , the spiritual understanding is that based upon all God's word , from Genesis to Rev. , and not upon chronology , piramidology , or other human science .

Regardind Daniel's prophecies , God sent an angel to Daniel to say him His will concerning time and the frame of His prophecies' fullfilment :

14  "And I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people at the end of the days: for the vision is yet for [many] days. "
Daniel 10.

Now , let us find what is the mark of beast according to God's will :

As it was previously mentioned, the new leadership that took control of the society in 1945 foremost of whom Knorr edited the book “The Translation of the New World”, which distorted a lot of information in God's word, despite the warning that the Holy Scriptures gave with regard to this.

Thus, it was proven that these people have left Jehovah – “the spring of the living water”. And here is what Jehovah said about these individuals: “Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the Lord, the spring of the living water” (Jeremiah 17: 13b)

So, in spite of their statements and their claims of being part of the heaven, they have become dust. This is one of the horns, like a lamb's horn. The other horn is exactly the part which was assigned authority and which is shown as being, hopefully, earthly. These horns are like lamb's horns, meaning that they come in the Name of God's Lamb. But next, we are shown that the beast having this appearance was speaking like a dragon. What does this mean? Let us think about it a little. How does a dragon speak? How did it speak in the Garden of Eden when it misled the original couple? Hasn't it spoken by altering God's words?

The same type of speech was imposed on the beast also for it could deceive the people of the world. The picture of “the original beast” is the tool of deceivement, that is the same book we were talking about – “The Translation of the New World ” which the beast indicates and submits to all as being the basic tool in the discovery of truth. Such a serious error! And precisely they who talk about other religions, sects or denominations do this kind of thing when they themselves do it.

All those who consider this picture as being what it claims to be are worshipers of “the beast and his image” (Revelation 14: 9) On the other hand, those who do not worship the beast and its image are “killed”, that is they are denied and banished from within this group of so-called witnesses and, thus “they don't buy and don't sell the rich spiritual asset” given by the <<slave>>! Only those who worship the beast and its image have the sign of the beast!

Concerning the reckoning of the beast's number, 666 we have to understand that time has come for Jehovah to give the necessary wisdom and knowledge to His messenger in order to be able to reckon the number of the beast. The expression “for he is a number of man” helps us understand that it's something concerning the things that are guided by people within the frame of an organized system, but which does not correspond to God's requirements.

During this debate we have noticed that this beast is nothing else but the class of the opponents who settled in the temple as it was prophesied and thus, in relation with this organized system it is indicated to reckon the number of the beast.

So, let us see how we can find this number. At page 109 of the book “Jehovah's witnesses, proclaimers of God's Kingdom”, in the second paragraph the following appear: “Starting with 1 st January 1976 all the activities of the Watch Tower Society and of all the congregations of Jehovah's witnesses in the entire world have entered under the supervision of six administrative committees of the government corps. (And here we have the first six) Then, we read on: “In accordance with this measure, on 1 st February 1976 a similar modification took place in every branch of the society. (And this is the second six) Then, going down to the third step – the congregation we observe that there is a committee, which handles all the problems of the congregation. This committee is formed out of six members (and here is the third six) with the following functions and responsabilities: 1 – president; 2 – secretary; 3 – accountant; 4 – the supervisor of the minister school; 5 – the supervisor of the ministry service; 6 – the person who is in charge of the literature department. All these together represent the number 666.
Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit of Jehovah there will be more debates in the future concerning the beast or as the prophet Daniel says “the wild animal”. And all these happen because we approach very rapidly to the moment of the liberation of Jehovah's saints whom the beast defeated. With the true judgment that follows this beast will be “taken the domination and completely destroyed forever”.

“But the court will sit and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom and all rulers will worship and obey him.” (Daniel 7: 26b, 27)

So now “a breath of life from God” will enter inside these saints.(Revelation 11: 11) Of course, this thing will bring along not only amazement (2 Thessalonians 1: 10) but also a severe earthquake (Revelation 11: 13)

For further information you may see the entire article on site :
http://www.geocities.com/sas_gavril

As apostle Paul said , " but let God be true, and every man false; according as it is written, So that thou shouldest be justified in thy words, and shouldest overcome when thou art in judgment. "


                                              

04-17-2007 07:03 AM
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Interpretum
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Post: #39
RE: The Mark of the Beast

hI warmthofthesun

warmthofthesun Wrote:
Do you imagine God is going to plant some chip in your head that marks you as his?

The revelation of Jesus Christ is a symbolic book. Do some thinking people.
Do you have the mind of Christ or of the beast?


I agree that Revelation is generally a symbolic book. However, there is a contrast between the things God does, and the things Satan does. God's activities are usually heavenly and spiritual. Satan's things are usually earthly and demonic.

The point is, allegiance to God does not need a physical mark, because God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him do so in spirit and truth.

Satan is the "god of this system of things", and the "father of the lie". He relies on deception and deceit. His actions are, at best, a poor imitation of God's.

So, then, why couldn't the "mark of the beast" be physical? It would just be a physical imitation of God's spiritual mark?


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-17-2007 08:14 AM
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Interpretum
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Post: #40
RE: The Mark of the Beast

Hi donbodo

donbodo Wrote:
And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and upon its horns ten diadems, but upon its heads blasphemous names. (v. 1)


I do think there is a connection here with the Roman empire. However, I'm curious to hear your take on the following verse:

"And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast." (17:12)

Even if we presuppose an early writing for Revelation (i.e. 60's CE), the angel explicitly says that the ten kings have not yet received a kingdom.

Clearly then they cannot be previous Roman emperors. Also, the account implies that the ten kings exist simultaneously, since they receive authority as kings one hour with the beast; and, in the next verse, "these have one thought".

In verse 16, "the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated". So it doesn't appear to be a sequence of 10 torns, but of 10 simultaneous horns devastating the harlot.

This is in harmony with 10 toes of the statue of Daniel's vision in Dan 2, and the ten horns of the 4th beast in Dan 7.

So how does this reconcile with the Preterist view? Surely the Historicist view makes more sense in this regard, arguing the 10 horns represents the 10 ("complete number of") kingdoms that emerged from the Roman empire?


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-17-2007 08:26 AM
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warmthofthesun
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Post: #41
RE: The Mark of the Beast

Yes, but if God seeks worship in spirit and truth, then he is not so much concerned with what physical thing Satan can do to us, as so much our spiritual well-being.

Interpretum Wrote:
hI warmthofthesun

warmthofthesun Wrote:
Do you imagine God is going to plant some chip in your head that marks you as his?

The revelation of Jesus Christ is a symbolic book. Do some thinking people.
Do you have the mind of Christ or of the beast?


I agree that Revelation is generally a symbolic book. However, there is a contrast between the things God does, and the things Satan does. God's activities are usually heavenly and spiritual. Satan's things are usually earthly and demonic.

The point is, allegiance to God does not need a physical mark, because God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him do so in spirit and truth.

Satan is the "god of this system of things", and the "father of the lie". He relies on deception and deceit. His actions are, at best, a poor imitation of God's.

So, then, why couldn't the "mark of the beast" be physical? It would just be a physical imitation of God's spiritual mark?


"But if one who has hate for you is in need of food or of drink, give it to him, for in so doing you will put coals of fire on his head. Do not let evil overcome you, but overcome evil by good."
04-17-2007 10:31 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #42
RE: The Mark of the Beast

warmthofthesun Wrote:
Hi Draka,

What I was trying to get across is that both marks symbolize something. They are not a material mark. God isn't worried about what we use to do our shopping. The beast mark is attained by following the kingdoms of the earth and sinful nature. The mark of the Father and the Son is attained by following them and not living to the fleshly nature -- living for his kingdom.

People are strongly deluded by waiting around for these marks to make an appearance on earth, when for the last 2000 years they have been a reality.  

This is why we see in Revelation 20 that those that do not accept the mark reign with Christ. Now it seems obvious then that the mark and the beast must stretch longer than some 3 year period or else none of the saints that have lived before would reign with Christ.

Andrew


wots,

I like your way of thinking about the mark.

Revelation reveals what has already been said in the bible through symbols.

A symbolic mark in the forehead can best be obtained by making a vow of loyalty to the wild beast. This vow provides veneration and worship to the wild beast. We should be very carefull about getting this mark. Did Jesus Christ say there was anything we should be carefull about in the gospels?

He said :

Satan would sow weeds inside of his Kingdom.
We should be carefull about being gathered together by false signs.
We should not eat and drink with drunkards.


If Satan was to sow weeds inside of God's true Kingdom and those weeds were successfull then the true Kingdom would become wild.

A wild beast.

If Satan was to overcome the true kingdom in such a way that worship would still continue would it be true worship or would the persons now be worshipping Satans wild beast?

How about if Satan could get the participants in this Kingdom to continue selling and others buying the false idea that they were engaging in proper worship when in fact they were not? Perhaps selling the idea door to door and buying more persons with it.

He would have removed the constant feature of worship and replaced it with something else.

That would be an unrighteous deception wouldn't it?

Perhaps Satan could get the entire Kingdom do disobey God without them even realizing it. If Satan was able to successfully do this then a righteous person would consider that perhaps these deceived persons might not be completely lucid, or ............. drunkards.

Could Satan have a more malicious motive for sowing weeds in among the wheat? The same motive he had in the Garden of Eden.

Satan has been able to get people to make a supposed baptismal vow to "God's Spirit Directed Organization".

If this disobeys Jesus Christ's commandment regarding baptism then the person now has a mark with the name of the wild beast.

So what is the name given in the vow?

"God's Spirit Directed Organization".

An organization usually requires commitees or groups of men in order to be organized.

So how is "God's Spirit Directed Organization" organized?

Certainly it is by numbers of men?

A man's number.

What is the number of men used to organize "God's Spirit Directed Organization"?

Anyone know the answer?


ablebodiedman

04-17-2007 05:13 PM
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New Heart
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Post: #43
RE: The Mark of the Beast

Paul Wrote:
I believe that the mark of the beast has to do with our internal spiritual struggle.  We all fight animalistic tendencies.  It is easy for these tendencies to win out.  But when we are born again to do the will of the Father, we become better able to fight these beastlike traits.  We gain victory over the beast when we decide that we will not always react to a situation with anger and sarcasm.  The fruits of the spirit such as love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, mildness, etc., helps us to fight the traits of our internal beast.  We reject such spirit poisons as rage, lust, violence, sarcasm, mean-spiritedness, jealousy, etc.  

Love,
Paul


This is an interesting read....should wake anyone up to know and understand that the majority are so asleep....http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/weapons.html

it is long...but its worth the read, or ...you can stay asleep .


O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.
04-17-2007 06:12 PM
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donbodo
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Post: #44
RE: The Mark of the Beast

Wow--lots of interesting posts.

Interpretum--glad to see you back. Here's my response to the question you posed me.

Who are the ten horns?

I do not think they are Roman emperors for two reasons. First, the heads represent the emperors, so there is no need for more. Second, we are told that the ten horns receive authority "with" the beast (i.e., the Roman Empire), give power "to" the beast, are listed separately from the beast (17:16), so I think they are allies of Rome, but not Rome.

What do we know about them?

1. They are ten kings.
2. They receive a kingdom (or "authority as kings") one hour with the beast.
3. They hate the harlot (unfaithful Jerusalem) and help destroy her.
4. They battle with the Lamb (persecute Christians), along with the beast, but the Lamb and his followers will conquer them.

I assume that they are called kings only during the hour they have authority. The number ten is symbolic for completeness, so I don't think we should take it literally. But to identify them, I think we need to look at point #3. In my opinion, they are the neighbors of Judea, who sided with Rome, or went over to Rome's side, during the war and helped Rome to retake the area (Phoenicia, Gaulanitis, the Decapolis, Nabatea, Idumea, Philistia, etc.).

They also persecuted Christians, and I think their being "conquered" refers to their being unable to turn Christians away from God (as you know, the word "conquer" is used this way many times in the Bible).

---
Dear Rus,

It was interesting that you claimed that we should allow the Bible to interpret itself, but you used current events to interpret it.


"Learn the rule: 'Do not go beyond the things that are written,' in order that you may not be puffed up individually in favor of the one against the other" (1 Cor. 4:6).
04-17-2007 11:15 PM
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gogh
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Post: #45
RE: The Mark of the Beast

Howdy rus virgil

Re: "...the new leadership that took control of the society in 1945..."

Are you saying/teaching the "society" were a chosen people of Jehovah (in good standing...grin) before 1945? When did the "society" start becoming Jehovah's people, in your opinion?

Christian love,

gogh


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
04-17-2007 11:25 PM
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