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In the Forehead or the Hand?
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #16
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

Hi all,


I believe the "Mark of the beast" is the "Old personality - Flesh".

Hence the beast's number is 666 -- the beast is stuck in the 6th day, along with those who have the Mark.



"Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold the new has come"


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


11-11-2008 06:48 AM
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Truthpaste
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Post: #17
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

Hence the beast's number is 666 -- the beast is stuck in the 6th day, along with those who have the Mark.

Which particular 6th day do you mean?

Those who accept the 'Mark' have their fate outlined in Revelation 14v11........

:coffeeread: "The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."


"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" - John 8v32.
11-11-2008 09:50 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #18
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

Hey Truthpaste!! :clap:


Thanks for the reply! :hug: >



Truthpaste Wrote:
Hence the beast's number is 666 -- the beast is stuck in the 6th day, along with those who have the Mark.

Which particular 6th day do you mean?



Well, I mean the day that exists outside of God's rest -- that being the 7th.

Its like day 6.66666666666666666 .......no matter how far the "6th" day goes, it never quite gets to 7.



Truthpaste Wrote:
Those who accept the 'Mark' have their fate outlined in Revelation 14v11........

:coffeeread: "The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."



Absolutely!

Revelation 14v11 speaks quite clearly of the continuous and enduring fate of those caught in the flesh.

While manifestations of flesh - darkness - may seem fun for a while - underneath the the seeming enjoyment of flesh, there lies torment and pain for those who continue to indulge in the ways of the dark side.

In God there is Light -- there is no darkness at all in Him -- hence smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever, serving as a reference point for all that is not of God.

In my view, worship constitutes choice. Therefore, choice is worship. What we choose is what we worship -- so for people to worship the beast, they choose their sinful nature over Light, and deserve the reward for doing so.


"The mind of sinful man is death" -- Romans 8:6
"the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so." -- Romans 8:7
"Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." -- Romans 8:8
"And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." -- Romans 8:9




Cheers! :friends:


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


11-11-2008 11:16 PM
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New Heart
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Post: #19
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

digital_punk Wrote:
Hi all,


I believe the "Mark of the beast" is the "Old personality - Flesh".

Hence the beast's number is 666 -- the beast is stuck in the 6th day, along with those who have the Mark.



"Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold the new has come"


I believe the same way, that the mark is the fleshly life, still living for ourselves, with our own fleshly ways of thinking, still clinging to what man thinks, instead of the Holy Spirit teaching us personally what the Father's higher ways are.

New Heart


O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.
11-12-2008 02:00 AM
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Truthpaste
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Post: #20
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

It would seem that many here see Revelation ch4 -ch19 as somehow relating to the present, given that Revelation 1v19 sees a clear division of the book into that which is past, present and future, would someone like to put Revelation 13 into the context of time please?

I personally see Revelation 1 as John's reflection on the person of Christ (someone he had lived with in the past), Chapters 2&3 being addressed to the 7 churches and relating to the present church-age, then Revelation 4v1 is the gateway to the next future age, namely the Great Tribulation (chapters 4-19) culminating with Christ's return physically to the earth (see also Zechariah 14 where His feet actually stand on the Mount of Olives and it splits in two). Revelation 20 relates to final judgement and Relelation 21 & 22 the new heavens and the new earth.

Given that chapter 13 sits in the second section of the Great Tribulation then we need not fear the MARK now, as the Anti-Christ who will impose such a system cannot begin his reign of terror until Christ's elect have been removed (see 1 Thess 4v16-18 also the whole of 2 Thess 2).

How do we know we are NOT in that chapter 4 to 19 section you may ask? In that "Day of the Lord" there will be a worldwide earthquake, one third of ships being destroyed, a world leader demanding that his subjects have a mark placed on their forehead or right hand, the kings of the east killing a third of mankind, Jews being sealed from the threat of this world leader and reaping in a harvest of believers that exceeds 200,000,000 people, the whole world's trading system weeping over the fall of a new Babylon City & system which is destroyed in one day, I don't watch the news EVERY hour but I think I may have noticed some of those taking place somewhere on planet earth!

So does the beginning of chapter 4 tie up with the removal of God's own from the earth? Let's see, "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." Both have the call of the Lord, both have a trumphet like sound and both see the removal of his child/ children from the earth to heaven - allbeit for John, not a permanent visit!


"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" - John 8v32.
11-12-2008 07:35 AM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #21
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

Hey Truthpaste!! :clap:


Hows it going matey? :hug:



Truthpaste Wrote:
It would seem that many here see Revelation ch4 -ch19 as somehow relating to the present, given that Revelation 1v19 sees a clear division of the book into that which is past, present and future, would someone like to put Revelation 13 into the context of time please?



Firstly, not everyone shares the view that the Mark of the Beast is the flesh.

I believe Revelation does not have one "right" way of interpretation -- neither do I believe that Revelation is for one time period only, and not for another, as fulfillment can be argued in any time slot.

Revelation 1:19 can be construed in the way that you share -- a division of the book into that which is past, present and future -- and one would have merit interpreting the verse to explain the book of Revelation in the same way.

An aspect that needs to be included, is in Revelation 1:1 >


"The Revelation of Jesus Christ..."

The book of Revelation, therefore, can be construed as a detailed, spiritual account of "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" -- the revealing of our Lord and King -- His life, His Kingship, His Journey, His trial, His sacrifice and His Kingdom.

Revelation 1:19 >


"Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."

Past, Present and Future -- put them together, and you have "Now". Everything has happened, everything will happen and everything is happening - "Now!"

In the life of every Christian, a spiritual battle for the right to rule over us takes place every day. The Revealing of Jesus takes place in our lives each and everyday, as we follow the leadings of the Spirit towards our home, which is complete unification with the Lord and our Father in their Kingdom which has been reserved for those who love them.

The transition from flesh to Spirit, in my mind, IS the Revealing of Jesus Christ. I believe this takes place on an 'individual' level then reaches a 'collective' level, when Jesus is Revealed on an earth-wide scale.


"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea." -- Habakkuk 2:14


So, where do I see Revelation 13 in the context of time?


"Now". ;)




Truthpaste Wrote:
I personally see Revelation 1 as John's reflection on the person of Christ (someone he had lived with in the past), Chapters 2&3 being addressed to the 7 churches and relating to the present church-age, then Revelation 4v1 is the gateway to the next future age, namely the Great Tribulation (chapters 4-19) culminating with Christ's return physically to the earth (see also Zechariah 14 where His feet actually stand on the Mount of Olives and it splits in two). Revelation 20 relates to final judgement and Relelation 21 & 22 the new heavens and the new earth.


Sounds good to me! While I disagree with some aspects, I also realise what I dont know is a lot bigger than what I do know.


Truthpaste Wrote:
Given that chapter 13 sits in the second section of the Great Tribulation then we need not fear the MARK now, as the Anti-Christ who will impose such a system cannot begin his reign of terror until Christ's elect have been removed (see 1 Thess 4v16-18 also the whole of 2 Thess 2).


I dont believe in the "anti-christ" and I also interpret both accounts in Thessalonians in a much different way -- however, I do see how it works with your interpretation.


Truthpaste Wrote:
How do we know we are NOT in that chapter 4 to 19 section you may ask? In that "Day of the Lord" there will be a worldwide earthquake, one third of ships being destroyed, a world leader demanding that his subjects have a mark placed on their forehead or right hand, the kings of the east killing a third of mankind, Jews being sealed from the threat of this world leader and reaping in a harvest of believers that exceeds 200,000,000 people, the whole world's trading system weeping over the fall of a new Babylon City & system which is destroyed in one day, I don't watch the news EVERY hour but I think I may have noticed some of those taking place somewhere on planet earth!


Well -- this can only be true IF events actually take place in the way that you have written -- they may, im not saying they wont -- however, I respectfully disagree and have a different interpretation.


Truthpaste Wrote:
So does the beginning of chapter 4 tie up with the removal of God's own from the earth? Let's see, "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." Both have the call of the Lord, both have a trumphet like sound and both see the removal of his child/ children from the earth to heaven - allbeit for John, not a permanent visit!


Again, I respect your view, but I have a different one.

Nice to talk with you again! :friends:






May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends:


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


11-13-2008 08:23 AM
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Truthpaste
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Post: #22
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

Thanks DP for your comments,

I look forward to hearing more of your views as time progresses, much of my study in the last 35 years has been in eschatology, so we will have much to share I am sure. :ok:[quote=digital_punk]


"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" - John 8v32.
11-13-2008 07:14 PM
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Steam
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Post: #23
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

SlaveForJah Wrote:

Truthpaste Wrote:
Interesting comment Acts5v29, I personally do think it will be physical, I think it will be part of a monetary system which will also indicate allegiance to 'the beast' - who in my opinion may well be alive today and waiting for that time when he will be welcomed as the 'man of peace' - of course he will be anything but, as 3 in 4 people will be wiped off the face of the earth in that dreadful 'Day of the Lord' as Joel, Revelation, Daniel & Ezekiel (and many others) indicate so clearly.

So what about the technology to bring in such a 'mark' as mentioned in Revelation 13?

This is one of thousands of reports on what is being used today.....

"Fearful about how RFID tags might be used on people, state Senator Joe Simitian, D-Palo Alto, has proposed legislation limiting the use of the human device called a VeriChip. Both houses of the California Legislature have approved a Simitian bill that would prohibit forcing people to have chips implanted. As of early this week, the bill remained on the governor's desk awaiting his signature" - please take a look at the full article which covers the present use of microchips in pets, as we know anything that will be used with humans is tested on animals first! - here is the link >> http://www.pacificsun.com/story.php?story_id=1314


Hello Truthpaste,

Christian Greetings. Upon reading your post, it called to mind a discussion in which I was involved several months ago on another board. I'd like to offer some of my comments from that thread here. I will quote one of the posts from that thread, and hopefully the thoughts will be of some comfort to you.

SlaveForJah Wrote:

Gabriel Wrote:
Then what is this Mark that the scriptures speak of? I diffenately dont think that its symbolic or figerative in anyway. The scriptures has made it quite clear that "ALL WILL BE UNDER COMPULSION TO TAKE THE MARK or they will neither be able to buy nore sell" Rev 13:16-17 Does this not indicate that their will be a litteral forcing with severe conciquences for those who do not comply? Very interesting enough though, THE MARK that Jehovah uses to mark THOSE WHO ARE HIS is a spiritual mark when he commissions ezekial to walk through the city and mark those who are groaning and sighing over all the detestable things that were happening on their foreheads.

It appears that Satan think in very litteral terms of what Jehovah uses as symbolic Almost as though whatever Jehovah does, his (satan's) attitude is "I can do it better" He has taken all of his skill and crafty acts and geared them to the more concrete, knowing that humans have the tendacy to want to see with eyes of flesh rather than eyes of faith, therefore he uses that to his advantage. Well, what is the point to all my blubering? This mark, in whatever shape or form that it takes, will be a very real, a very physical mark that will be placed on all those who are promoters of this satanic system. At this point, The Demons are only awaiting word from the their masters as to what form this mark will take.


Hello again Gabriel, Warm Greetings in Christ.

Let's examine a few key points as to the identity of the Mark of the Beast. First, you draw the correct contrast and correlation between this Mark and the Mark that is given by the Man with the Secratary's Inkhorn. You have also correctly stated that the Secratary's Mark is a SPIRITUAL Mark. Just as a viewpoint question, why would the Mark of the Beast be other than Spiritual, if it is a corresponding mark of SPIRITUAL allegiance?

"14 And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And there was granted it to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who would not in any way worship the image of the wild beast.

16 And it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead, 17 and that nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name." - Revelation 13:14 - 17

The Beast MISLEADS those who dwell on the earth. This is done by signs...reminiscent of the powerful works and signs that the Man Of Lawlessness would perform, also to mislead. Those who would not WORSHIP the Beast or its Image are placed under its authority to be killed. These are spoken of again in Revelation Chapter 20 as "those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." Again, a SPIRITUAL thought. This is referring to the 144,000. The 144,000, are chosen from Pentecost 33 onward. In order for them to refuse the Mark from 33 until Armageddon, the Mark would have to be something that would be in existence all throughout that time.

Those who accept the Mark are said to be put "under compulsion" to take the Mark. "Compulsion" is quite a different thing from "being forced." If the Mark were merely a physical thing, "forced" might make more sense, but since it is compulsory, it involves choice. Jehovah could not justly punish those who took the mark unwillingly, through force. Those who accept the Mark will do so WILLINGLY. Jehovah is looking for those who will WORSHIP in SPIRIT and TRUTH, thus, the Mark is tied into the WORSHIP of the beast. Take for example the Nazi Concentration Camps and our brothers and sister in both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Bible Students groups, who were made to wear Purple Triangles. These indentifying marks were not merely compulsory, but forcibly worn...our brothers and sisters had no choice. If the Mark of the Beast were at issue during this trial, as I suspect it may have been, it had little or nothing to do with the Purple Triangles. The "Mark" issue or choice that those brothers had to make was whether or not to sign the paper renouncing their faith in Jehovah. Signing that paper would have shown their allegiance to the Nazi war machine, as well as to their flesh, and that their faith was not in Jehovah or His saving power, but rather in the fleshly arm of the Third Reich. Several situations like these have presented themselves to Jehovah's Sheep throughout the centuries, and no doubt will do so again in connection with the 8th King.

The Mark is associated not with FORM but with FUNCTION. While in a future application, the Mark MAY PROVE TO BE a choice in regards to a physical marking or implant, the form is irrelevant to the function it serves, that of demonstrable worship of Satan's 8th King, spurning Jehovah and the rightful rule of His Christ.

Or as I put it in another thread:

Quote:
Let us please remember that the "Mark" is not simply a tracking device that can be unwittingly accepted by an uneducated public. This will not involve trickery. It will be a clear and decisive choice to "worship the image of the wild beast".

So we can see that this "Mark" is received in connection with the compulsory acceptance of the rule of the beast. This will involve a conscientious decision to worship the beast and give it glory, to the exclusion of Jehovah, the One who rightly deserves our praise, honor and glory.


Hope this helps.

Your fellow slave in Christ

SlaveForJah


I would love to hear some more of your thoughts on the matter. May Jah's love be with you.


Agape

SlaveForJah


==================================================
Steam says: This has happened already. Done by King Henry the Eighth in the 1500's. He took contol of the Catholic Church in England and became its head in place of the Pope. Everyone had to acceed to his demands or else. The Oath of Pramuneire was to be sworn toby all. Priests were given a license after they swore to Henry's demands. Their congregations had to swear also and were probably given a paper to indicate they had swore to the oath. Henery killed several hundred people for failing to do his will.
People had to acknowledge Henry as the chief of the Church, they had the paper and they had the forehead allegiance to Henry or else.
This is not going to happen in the future. Whatever happens in the future is not the fulfillment of Revelation 13:16.

England is 666, the 6th nation in the line of Gentile powers permitted by God.1-Babylon, 2-Medo-Persia, 3-Greece, 4-Pagan Rome, 5-Papal Rome, 6-Great Britain, 7-USA, 8-European Union. Rev. 17:10,11.
These are my thoughts, accept what you will.

01-09-2009 01:16 PM
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Jan Kosonen
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Post: #24
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

Gabriel Wrote:
Then what is this Mark that the scriptures speak of? I diffenately dont think that its symbolic or figerative in anyway. The scriptures has made it quite clear that "ALL WILL BE UNDER COMPULSION TO TAKE THE MARK or they will neither be able to buy nore sell" Rev 13:16-17 Does this not indicate that their will be a litteral forcing with severe conciquences for those who do not comply? Very interesting enough though, THE MARK that Jehovah uses to mark THOSE WHO ARE HIS is a spiritual mark when he commissions ezekial to walk through the city and mark those who are groaning and sighing over all the detestable things that were happening on their foreheads.

It appears that Satan think in very litteral terms of what Jehovah uses as symbolic Almost as though whatever Jehovah does, his (satan's) attitude is "I can do it better" He has taken all of his skill and crafty acts and geared them to the more concrete, knowing that humans have the tendacy to want to see with eyes of flesh rather than eyes of faith, therefore he uses that to his advantage. Well, what is the point to all my blubering? This mark, in whatever shape or form that it takes, will be a very real, a very physical mark that will be placed on all those who are promoters of this satanic system. At this point, The Demons are only awaiting word from the their masters as to what form this mark will take.


That was an interesting point. I think too, it really could be a litteral mark in some yet unknown way. The WT-society teaches that the beast already exist, but nowbody have any litteral mark. And nobody is litterally compulsed to have the mark to be able to sell or buy.
That's just a reason to believe that this beast has not yet appeared yet.

Regards Jan

01-09-2009 05:03 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #25
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

Jan Kosonen Wrote:

Gabriel Wrote:
Then what is this Mark that the scriptures speak of? I diffenately dont think that its symbolic or figerative in anyway. The scriptures has made it quite clear that "ALL WILL BE UNDER COMPULSION TO TAKE THE MARK or they will neither be able to buy nore sell" Rev 13:16-17 Does this not indicate that their will be a litteral forcing with severe conciquences for those who do not comply? Very interesting enough though, THE MARK that Jehovah uses to mark THOSE WHO ARE HIS is a spiritual mark when he commissions ezekial to walk through the city and mark those who are groaning and sighing over all the detestable things that were happening on their foreheads.

It appears that Satan think in very litteral terms of what Jehovah uses as symbolic Almost as though whatever Jehovah does, his (satan's) attitude is "I can do it better" He has taken all of his skill and crafty acts and geared them to the more concrete, knowing that humans have the tendacy to want to see with eyes of flesh rather than eyes of faith, therefore he uses that to his advantage. Well, what is the point to all my blubering? This mark, in whatever shape or form that it takes, will be a very real, a very physical mark that will be placed on all those who are promoters of this satanic system. At this point, The Demons are only awaiting word from the their masters as to what form this mark will take.


That was an interesting point. I think too, it really could be a litteral mark in some yet unknown way. The WT-society teaches that the beast already exist, but nowbody have any litteral mark. And nobody is litterally compulsed to have the mark to be able to sell or buy.
That's just a reason to believe that this beast has not yet appeared yet.

Regards Jan



Jan,

Gabriel like many other people might think that the buying and selling has something to do with the mundane purchases that everybody in the world needs to make such as groceries.

What is it that people can sell or buy once they get the mark of the wild beast?

I am convinced that it is "The Lie".

They can sell "The Lie" only after they receive the mark of the wild beast.

Once "The Lie" is sold (believed) then the person believing it will have been bought.

What is "The Lie" these people are able to sell?

The exact same lie that Satan told in the Garden of Eden.

The bible really does come full circle.

The buying and selling has nothing to do with mundane things.

It is "The Lie" which they are selling.

They are buying more people with it.

See my video "Satans Lie" for a more thorough explanation:


http://thebiblereport.blogspot.com/2008/...s-lie.html


In Christ

ablebodiedman


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01-16-2009 10:34 AM
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Jan Kosonen
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Post: #26
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

Hi ablebodied man,
You surely have good intentions. But don't you think you add something to the Holy Scriptures, like many other poeple have done?
Revelation 22:18,19 warns:
18 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.



Best regards Jan

01-16-2009 05:50 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #27
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

Jan Kosonen Wrote:
Hi ablebodied man,
You surely have good intentions. But don't you think you add something to the Holy Scriptures, like many other poeple have done?
Revelation 22:18,19 warns:
18 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.



Best regards Jan



Hello Jan,

Is there something you think has been added in my post above?

Please be a good Christian brother and explain.




In Christ

ablebodiedman


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01-17-2009 03:39 AM
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Interpretum
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Post: #28
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

Hi Truthpaste

You may already know this, but I should point out that there is no unfying interpretation of Revelation on this board.

Truthpaste Wrote:
It would seem that many here see Revelation ch4 -ch19 as somehow relating to the present, given that Revelation 1v19 sees a clear division of the book into that which is past, present and future, would someone like to put Revelation 13 into the context of time please?


I think the key part of Revelation that sets the time frame is Revelation 5, with the slaughtered Lamb being given authority to open the seven seals of the scroll.

Jesus Christ is the slaughtered lamb, and his death in 33AD opened the way for this scroll to be opened - so I'd suggest the events unfold from 33AD onwards.

Jesus plainly foretold the downfall of Jerusalem and the sending of the Jews into captivity in the Olivet Prophecy (Mathew 24, Luke 21) so I'd suggest that the "seven seals" explicitly outline the fall of Jerusalem, in symbolic language. (It's worthy of note that no other book of the New Testament actually describes the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD. Mathew, Mark and Luke foretell it, but only John writes about it, I'd suggest.)

Rev 12 gives Christians an overview of the war between the "serpent" and his seed, and the "woman" and her seed, which extends to Christians.

Rev 13 should therefore be seen in this context. It describes the war between Satan and God's people in physical terms. Satan using the powers of the Roman state (in firstly its pagan and later its quasi-Christian guise), to attempt to crush the seed.

Historically, this war was launched around 70AD, with the destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple, and the persecution of Christians by Nero, but continued for many hundreds of years in various forms.

Quote:
Given that chapter 13 sits in the second section of the Great Tribulation then we need not fear the MARK now, as the Anti-Christ who will impose such a system cannot begin his reign of terror until Christ's elect have been removed (see 1 Thess 4v16-18 also the whole of 2 Thess 2).


The problem with this viewpoint is, what then is the point of Rev 13:10: "Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints."

This scripture appears right in the middle of the passage about the two wild beasts - but if the "saints" are going to be removed, they don't need endurance!

But if the first wild beast represented the Roman empire in its pagan guise, then Christians definitely DID need endurance, because the persecution of Christians under the Romans lasted for nearly 300 years!

Quote:
How do we know we are NOT in that chapter 4 to 19 section you may ask? In that "Day of the Lord" there will be a worldwide earthquake, one third of ships being destroyed, a world leader demanding that his subjects have a mark placed on their forehead or right hand, the kings of the east killing a third of mankind, Jews being sealed from the threat of this world leader and reaping in a harvest of believers that exceeds 200,000,000 people, the whole world's trading system weeping over the fall of a new Babylon City & system which is destroyed in one day, I don't watch the news EVERY hour but I think I may have noticed some of those taking place somewhere on planet earth!


I'd suggest you are making a mistake that many people commonly make with Revelation. They assume that "earth" is always talking about the whole earth. Remember that "earth" and "land" are interchangeable in Greek.

For instance, consider the phrase in 1:7: "... all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him."

Outside of this verse, the Bible rarely refers to people of the earth solely in terms of tribes - it is usually nations. On the other hand, the people of Israel are commonly refered to as the "tribes" of Israel.

So I'd suggest the correct word here should be "land", that "all the tribes of the land will wail on account of him".

Which land? Why, Israel!

This is in perfect harmony with Zechariah 12:12, which uses LAND... "the land will certainly wail", in reference to the One they pierced.

If we stop assuming the entire prophecy is targetting the whole EARTH, and realize that part of it is targeting the LAND of Israel prior to 70AD, then we do not have to expect a third of the WORLD to be destroyed. That is the point of the "seven seals".

Quote:
So does the beginning of chapter 4 tie up with the removal of God's own from the earth? Let's see, "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." Both have the call of the Lord, both have a trumphet like sound and both see the removal of his child/ children from the earth to heaven - allbeit for John, not a permanent visit!


I can certainly see how you've drawn your conclusion, but the passage is not about ALL Christians going to heaven - it is a specific invite for John.


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01-30-2009 05:43 PM
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valkyrie
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Post: #29
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

SlaveForJah Wrote:

Truthpaste Wrote:
Interesting comment Acts5v29, I personally do think it will be physical, I think it will be part of a monetary system which will also indicate allegiance to 'the beast' - who in my opinion may well be alive today and waiting for that time when he will be welcomed as the 'man of peace' - of course he will be anything but, as 3 in 4 people will be wiped off the face of the earth in that dreadful 'Day of the Lord' as Joel, Revelation, Daniel & Ezekiel (and many others) indicate so clearly.

So what about the technology to bring in such a 'mark' as mentioned in Revelation 13?

This is one of thousands of reports on what is being used today.....

"Fearful about how RFID tags might be used on people, state Senator Joe Simitian, D-Palo Alto, has proposed legislation limiting the use of the human device called a VeriChip. Both houses of the California Legislature have approved a Simitian bill that would prohibit forcing people to have chips implanted. As of early this week, the bill remained on the governor's desk awaiting his signature" - please take a look at the full article which covers the present use of microchips in pets, as we know anything that will be used with humans is tested on animals first! - here is the link >> http://www.pacificsun.com/story.php?story_id=1314


Hello Truthpaste,

Christian Greetings. Upon reading your post, it called to mind a discussion in which I was involved several months ago on another board. I'd like to offer some of my comments from that thread here. I will quote one of the posts from that thread, and hopefully the thoughts will be of some comfort to you.

SlaveForJah Wrote:

Gabriel Wrote:
Then what is this Mark that the scriptures speak of? I diffenately dont think that its symbolic or figerative in anyway. The scriptures has made it quite clear that "ALL WILL BE UNDER COMPULSION TO TAKE THE MARK or they will neither be able to buy nore sell" Rev 13:16-17 Does this not indicate that their will be a litteral forcing with severe conciquences for those who do not comply? Very interesting enough though, THE MARK that Jehovah uses to mark THOSE WHO ARE HIS is a spiritual mark when he commissions ezekial to walk through the city and mark those who are groaning and sighing over all the detestable things that were happening on their foreheads.

It appears that Satan think in very litteral terms of what Jehovah uses as symbolic Almost as though whatever Jehovah does, his (satan's) attitude is "I can do it better" He has taken all of his skill and crafty acts and geared them to the more concrete, knowing that humans have the tendacy to want to see with eyes of flesh rather than eyes of faith, therefore he uses that to his advantage. Well, what is the point to all my blubering? This mark, in whatever shape or form that it takes, will be a very real, a very physical mark that will be placed on all those who are promoters of this satanic system. At this point, The Demons are only awaiting word from the their masters as to what form this mark will take.


Hello again Gabriel, Warm Greetings in Christ.

Let's examine a few key points as to the identity of the Mark of the Beast. First, you draw the correct contrast and correlation between this Mark and the Mark that is given by the Man with the Secratary's Inkhorn. You have also correctly stated that the Secratary's Mark is a SPIRITUAL Mark. Just as a viewpoint question, why would the Mark of the Beast be other than Spiritual, if it is a corresponding mark of SPIRITUAL allegiance?

"14 And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And there was granted it to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who would not in any way worship the image of the wild beast.

16 And it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead, 17 and that nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name." - Revelation 13:14 - 17

The Beast MISLEADS those who dwell on the earth. This is done by signs...reminiscent of the powerful works and signs that the Man Of Lawlessness would perform, also to mislead. Those who would not WORSHIP the Beast or its Image are placed under its authority to be killed. These are spoken of again in Revelation Chapter 20 as "those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." Again, a SPIRITUAL thought. This is referring to the 144,000. The 144,000, are chosen from Pentecost 33 onward. In order for them to refuse the Mark from 33 until Armageddon, the Mark would have to be something that would be in existence all throughout that time.

Those who accept the Mark are said to be put "under compulsion" to take the Mark. "Compulsion" is quite a different thing from "being forced." If the Mark were merely a physical thing, "forced" might make more sense, but since it is compulsory, it involves choice. Jehovah could not justly punish those who took the mark unwillingly, through force. Those who accept the Mark will do so WILLINGLY. Jehovah is looking for those who will WORSHIP in SPIRIT and TRUTH, thus, the Mark is tied into the WORSHIP of the beast. Take for example the Nazi Concentration Camps and our brothers and sister in both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Bible Students groups, who were made to wear Purple Triangles. These indentifying marks were not merely compulsory, but forcibly worn...our brothers and sisters had no choice. If the Mark of the Beast were at issue during this trial, as I suspect it may have been, it had little or nothing to do with the Purple Triangles. The "Mark" issue or choice that those brothers had to make was whether or not to sign the paper renouncing their faith in Jehovah. Signing that paper would have shown their allegiance to the Nazi war machine, as well as to their flesh, and that their faith was not in Jehovah or His saving power, but rather in the fleshly arm of the Third Reich. Several situations like these have presented themselves to Jehovah's Sheep throughout the centuries, and no doubt will do so again in connection with the 8th King.

The Mark is associated not with FORM but with FUNCTION. While in a future application, the Mark MAY PROVE TO BE a choice in regards to a physical marking or implant, the form is irrelevant to the function it serves, that of demonstrable worship of Satan's 8th King, spurning Jehovah and the rightful rule of His Christ.

Or as I put it in another thread:

Quote:
Let us please remember that the "Mark" is not simply a tracking device that can be unwittingly accepted by an uneducated public. This will not involve trickery. It will be a clear and decisive choice to "worship the image of the wild beast".

So we can see that this "Mark" is received in connection with the compulsory acceptance of the rule of the beast. This will involve a conscientious decision to worship the beast and give it glory, to the exclusion of Jehovah, the One who rightly deserves our praise, honor and glory.


Hope this helps.

Your fellow slave in Christ

SlaveForJah


I would love to hear some more of your thoughts on the matter. May Jah's love be with you.


Agape

SlaveForJah


wont be on the forehead or the hand, just a mental agreement. Soon, like in Europe, they will issue a new world currency, but to get it it may mean pledging some kind of allegiance, and without the beast mark you cannot buy or sell. It could be as simple as that? and when you look at it, was europe a testing ground for all of this to see if Nations could be united under one flag, one law and one currency? pretty scary if it was..but, it could just be a mental agreement and nothing more, and maybe a pledge of allegiance could be forced? and the time of this king will be worse than anything the Nazis could ever conjour up...and will make the Nazi regime to look like the magic roundabout just a thought....but those not buying into this agreement cant buy or sell, they wont even be found as the wild beast will get rid of them without mercy...(Rev 13:15-18 Daniel 3:6).and remeber he is a king, fearsome in countenance.

05-01-2009 03:12 AM
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MAKARIOS
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Post: #30
RE: In the Forehead or the Hand?

Matthew 21:12-18

(Mt 21:12-18) And Jesus entered into the temple and threw out all those selling and buying in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 And he said to them: “It is written, ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but YOU are making it a cave of robbers.” 14 Also, blind and lame persons came up to him in the temple, and he cured them. 15 When the chief priests and the scribes saw the marvelous things he did and the boys that were crying out in the temple and saying: “Save, we pray, the Son of David!” they became indignant 16 and said to him: “Do you hear what these are saying?” Jesus said to them: “Yes. Did YOU never read this, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings you have furnished praise’?” 17 And leaving them behind he went outside the city to Beth′a‧ny and passed the night there. 18 While returning to the city early in the morning, he got hungry.


Mark 11:15-18

(Mr 11:15-18) Now they came to Jerusalem. There he entered into the temple and started to throw out those selling and buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves; 16 and he would not let anyone carry a utensil through the temple, 17 but he kept teaching and saying: “Is it not written, ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But YOU have made it a cave of robbers.” 18 And the chief priests and the scribes heard it, and they began to seek how to destroy him; for they were in fear of him, for all the crowd was continually being astounded at his teaching.


Luke 19:41-45

(Lu 19:41-45) And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, 42 saying: “If you, even you, had discerned in this day the things having to do with peace—but now they have been hid from your eyes. 43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, 44 and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.” 45 And he entered into the temple and started to throw out those who were selling,


John 2:13-17

 (John 2:13-17) 13 Now the passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And he found in the temple those selling cattle and sheep and doves and the money brokers in their seats. 15 So, after making a whip of ropes, he drove all those with the sheep and cattle out of the temple, and he poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 And he said to those selling the doves: “Take these things away from here! Stop making the house of my Father a house of merchandise!” 17 His disciples called to mind that it is written: “The zeal for your house will eat me up.”


Makarios

08-11-2011 11:26 AM
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