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One Flock One Shepherd
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Bangalore
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One Flock One Shepherd

One Flock One Shepherd.

http://watchtowertruth.blogspot.com/2009...pherd.html

The Watchtower Society teaches a two class Christianity because they misinterpret the Bible. They confuse the Little Flock of Jesus' disciples (Luke 12:32) with the 144,000 of Revelation chapters 7 and 14, while applying the term other sheep (John 10:16) Jesus referred to as the Great Crowd of Revelation.

If read in context from Luke 12:22-32 it becomes plain that Jesus was speaking of the little flock made up of his disciples. If we consider what John wrote about the other sheep, since Jesus came primarily to the Jews, the other sheep clearly applies to the Gentiles. It's also interesting that Jesus said there would be ONE flock one Shepherd, not two flocks or two classes of Christians like the Watchtower claims, but instead ONE Faith, ONE Hope, and ONE group of people following the ONE Shepherd.

The Book of Acts in Chapters 10 and 11 we see how Peter was to bring in the other sheep, the Gentiles into the flock. By allowing salvation to extend beyond Israel's borders, Jesus brought together sheep from two folds into one flock.

Basically the Watchtower reads WAAAAY too much into the Scriptures in order to manipulate the minds of people and to lead Jesus sheep away from His care and into the mouths of the wolves who run the Watchtower Society.

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


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04-04-2009 10:48 AM
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Willa
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RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Well that's short and sweet! Amen. :D

:peace:


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04-04-2009 04:26 PM
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JWHVACR
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RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Absolutely true! And the sad thing is that many of our brothers who have fled that organization still buy into the WTS 2-class belief of "anointed" and "other sheep." It's a lie that is hard to let go of. And that's why our upcoming online Memorial celebration will probably have so few in attendance... many will be sitting in Kingdom Halls rejecting their part in the New Covenant, and the rest will be partaking to show themselves a class apart.
:cry:


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04-05-2009 06:48 AM
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Susanna
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RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Hi all
I hope its alright to agree to disagree with out hard feelings.

The way I see it one cannot reject everything that comes from the WT as incorrect,
If a person takes notice you can see that the BS hold the sons of God and the WT as of today hold the other sheep.

Jesus said to his little flock 'I have other sheep that are not of THIS FOLD (the 144,000 ) these ( other sheep ) will listen to MY voice , they i must also bring and they will become one flock ( Not the same fold ) under one shepherd. these I must also bring. John 10:16

To say the other sheep were gentiles, would go against Jehovah's word as He is not prejudice, Adam was created with all the races in his loins, Job was also a oriental and approved to be used in writting the inspired word or a whole book in the Hebrew scriptures .
We also have Jesus speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well.

No ! the other sheep are just that, " other sheep" , In speaking to Peter Jesus asked Peter three time, Peter do you love me ? Yes , Lord was the reply, and three times Jesus said , feed my little sheep.

Jesus was not telling Peter to look after and feed the Little flock, No ! He was telling the Little flock to look after his sheep ,He was going to bring the other sheep to them , they would listen to Jesus voice and it was going to be the responsibility of the members of Christ to feed his sheep.

The Governing Body invaded the Temple of God usurping their Head and Master Jesus Christ , that's why the sheep are being scattered . Take notice Jesus is feeding the other sheep himself while those in the WT are trying to hold on to Sheep that belong to Jesus .and the true sons of God.
Shortly Jesus will gather his little sheep and connect these little sheep with those who will care for them as Jesus intended.

These are my thoughts on this Subject of John 10:16

susanna :grouphug:


Jehovah and one is a large army
04-26-2009 10:52 AM
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Malkah
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RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Hi Susanna - of course its okay to disagree, that's what a discussion board is for:thumbsup:

You're right that God is not predjudiced, although He does say that salvation was for the Jew first, then the gentile. He chose the Jews as a way of blessing and offering salvation to everyone.:thumbsup:

But at the point this scripture was spoken, there were only Jewish Christians, no gentiles. They were a "little flock"

But Jesus had no intention of keeping them thus. He knew he had other sheep, gentiles, all over the world to be called and saved and grafted in to the olive tree. They would become "one flock." Jew and gentile, one in messiah.

If you're raised a Jew (as I was) its a pretty amazing and humbling thing to realise that God wishes to bless all nations through his son. It can be quite a stumbling block to Jews coming to Jesus to learn that we are no better or worse than the gentiles.

Jesus has one flock. It began in the fold of Judaism and Israel, and in now a flock of all tongues, all nations, all cultures. One flock. Children of the living God, cleansed through the blood of his son.

There is one hope, one faith, one baptism, one God, one Father, one Lord, one master, one church. Everything in Jesus is about reconciliation, not division.

Susanna Wrote:
Hi all
I hope its alright to agree to disagree with out hard feelings.

The way I see it one cannot reject everything that comes from the WT as incorrect,
If a person takes notice you can see that the BS hold the sons of God and the WT as of today hold the other sheep.

Jesus said to his little flock 'I have other sheep that are not of THIS FOLD (the 144,000 ) these ( other sheep ) will listen to MY voice , they i must also bring and they will become one flock ( Not the same fold ) under one shepherd. these I must also bring. John 10:16

To say the other sheep were gentiles, would go against Jehovah's word as He is not prejudice, Adam was created with all the races in his loins, Job was also a oriental and approved to be used in writting the inspired word or a whole book in the Hebrew scriptures .
We also have Jesus speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well.

No ! the other sheep are just that, " other sheep" , In speaking to Peter Jesus asked Peter three time, Peter do you love me ? Yes , Lord was the reply, and three times Jesus said , feed my little sheep.

Jesus was not telling Peter to look after and feed the Little flock, No ! He was telling the Little flock to look after his sheep ,He was going to bring the other sheep to them , they would listen to Jesus voice and it was going to be the responsibility of the members of Christ to feed his sheep.

The Governing Body invaded the Temple of God usurping their Head and Master Jesus Christ , that's why the sheep are being scattered . Take notice Jesus is feeding the other sheep himself while those in the WT are trying to hold on to Sheep that belong to Jesus .and the true sons of God.
Shortly Jesus will gather his little sheep and connect these little sheep with those who will care for them as Jesus intended.

These are my thoughts on this Subject of John 10:16

susanna :grouphug:


Adonai,
Ish Milchamah.
Adonai hu sh'mo.

Baruch HaShem, melech haOlam.

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
-Mahatma Gandhi
04-26-2009 12:13 PM
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Susanna
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Post: #6
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Post: #5RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Hi Susanna - of course its okay to disagree, that's what a discussion board is for

You're right that God is not predjudiced, although He does say that salvation was for the Jew first, then the gentile. He chose the Jews as a way of blessing and offering salvation to everyone.

Hi Malkah

I agree , Jehovah had told his people ( Jews ) that they could become a Royal Priesthood, that is why Jesus came to preach only to the House of Isreal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
But at the point this scripture was spoken, there were only Jewish Christians, no gentiles. They were a "little flock"

Answer : The little flock was predestined to be 144,000. When Jesus told the little flock to have no fear, he was speaking to the 144,000 as a whole, Jesus did not say just when these other sheep would hear his voice, did he ?

Yet on the other hand, there were prophecies on when the gentiles would come in to that little flock.

One prophecy is recorded in Daniel where the Messiah would be cut off in the middle of the week that was in 33 1/2 AD but extension to the Jews would still go out to only the Jews until the end of the week which was 36 AD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But Jesus had no intention of keeping them thus. He knew he had other sheep, gentiles, all over the world to be called and saved and grafted in to the olive tree. They would become "one flock." Jew and gentile, one in messiah.

Answer: We have the prophecy in Daniel showing the calling would go out to the Jew three years after Jesus death, and we also have Acts the 10 th Chapter in Jehovah preparing Peter in a vision of a sheet of unclean animals that he was to take and eat.

Being a Jew these animals were unclean, Jehovah was telling Peter to take and eat in that vision, but Peter said , he could not eat what was unclean. Jehovah went on to say to Peter not to call unclean what he had made clean.

Shortly after that ,Peter got word to visit Cornelius a army officer who was a Gentile.

Had Jesus meant the other sheep mentioned in John `10:16 ,were going to be gentiles there would have been no need for Jehovah to prepare Peters mind with a vision. Take notice Jesus may do the calling but it is Jehovah that does the chosen . Many are called but few are chosen . One may profess to be of the Bride but until they run the race to the finish there is no crown for them.
In fact we find there are those who made the claim that they were a spiritual Jew but were not. Rev 2:9 Rev 3:9

It was after the year 36 A.D that the grafting started to take place.

Ro 11 :17-24
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you're raised a Jew (as I was) its a pretty amazing and humbling thing to realise that God wishes to bless all nations through his son. It can be quite a stumbling block to Jews coming to Jesus to learn that we are no better or worse than the gentiles.

Jesus has one flock. It began in the fold of Judaism and Israel, and in now a flock of all tongues, all nations, all cultures. One flock. Children of the living God, cleansed through the blood of his son.

Answer Jesus has one fold of 144,000 and other sheep that are not of that fold. The Ransom sacrifice was to buy back what Adam lost,

They would have the hope everlasting life here on earth.

Had Adam not missed the mark there would be no need for Jesus to lay down his life for us, there fore there would be no Messianic Kingdom or 144,000. We would have only those Humans here on earth with Jehovah being Father to all .

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There is one hope, one faith, one baptism, one God, one Father, one Lord, one master, one church.

Answer Paul here is speaking to the Ephesians that made up that cong who had the calling, Eph 4:1-6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Everything in Jesus is about reconciliation, not division.
[/b]
Answer : of course it is , but keep in mind those who will be chosen must be declared righteous to be adopted by the Father. Jehovah is perfect and could never adopt imperfect man as His son. But as is said he does the choosing not man himself

So the only difference between the little Flock and the other sheep is it will take a 1000 years before the other sheep are declared righteous and written in the book of life,These are the Subjects of the Kingdom rule. They will by then reached the state that Adam would have been in had he been obedient.

It is then that we see the fulfillment of 1 Cor 15:28 when Christ has made all things perfect and hands all things over to his Father and as in the beginning all things will be subjected to Him , including Jesus and it is then that we the other sheep also become Jehovah's human sons.

susanna:grouphug:


Jehovah and one is a large army
04-26-2009 04:11 PM
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man hu
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Post: #7
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Susanna Wrote:
Hi all
I hope its alright to agree to disagree with out hard feelings.
Jesus said to his little flock 'I have other sheep that are not of THIS FOLD (the 144,000 ) these ( other sheep ) will listen to MY voice , they i must also bring and they will become one flock ( Not the same fold ) under one shepherd. these I must also bring.
John 10:16

To say the other sheep were gentiles, would go against Jehovah's word as He is not prejudice, Adam was created with all the races in his loins, Job was also a oriental and approved to be used in writting the inspired word or a whole book in the Hebrew scriptures .
We also have Jesus speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well.

No ! the other sheep are just that, " other sheep" , In speaking to Peter Jesus asked Peter three time, Peter do you love me ? Yes , Lord was the reply, and three times Jesus said , feed my little sheep.
These are my thoughts on this Subject of John 10:16

susanna :grouphug:

Susanna, have you ever considered what the sheep pen is, that locks the sheep in and that Jesus releases himself by being the gate?

It is probably not a salvation issue, but for those searching to get to the bottom of things, it is useful to know because once released from the pen the others not from that pen become one flock.

vicky


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
04-26-2009 04:54 PM
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Susanna
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Post: #8
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Quote:
Susanna, have you ever considered what the sheep pen is, that locks the sheep in and that Jesus releases himself by being the gate?
It is probably not a salvation issue, but for those searching to get to the bottom of things, it is useful to know because once released from the pen the others not from that pen become one flock.
vicky


Dear vicki
To be honest with you, no ! I have not considered any of the above.
Being that we are Reasoning on the Scriptures, I will perk up and listen to your explanation.
susanna :grouphug:


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04-27-2009 09:36 AM
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Lowlee
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Post: #9
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Malkah Wrote:
God is not predjudiced, although He does say that salvation was for the Jew first, then the gentile. He chose the Jews as a way of blessing and offering salvation to everyone.:thumbsup:

But at the point this scripture was spoken, there were only Jewish Christians, no gentiles. They were a "little flock"

But Jesus had no intention of keeping them thus. He knew he had other sheep, gentiles, all over the world to be called and saved and grafted in to the olive tree. They would become "one flock." Jew and gentile, one in messiah.

If you're raised a Jew (as I was) its a pretty amazing and humbling thing to realise that God wishes to bless all nations through his son. It can be quite a stumbling block to Jews coming to Jesus to learn that we are no better or worse than the gentiles.

Jesus has one flock. It began in the fold of Judaism and Israel, and in now a flock of all tongues, all nations, all cultures. One flock. Children of the living God, cleansed through the blood of his son.

There is one hope, one faith, one baptism, one God, one Father, one Lord, one master, one church. Everything in Jesus is about reconciliation, not division.


Hi Sis Malkah,

How are you? :hug:

As an x-jdubber here, I find your post comforting and how I see it too.

You as a Jew and me as a gentile are together as one flock with one shepherd. It is fantastic to contemplate this. :thumbsup: The Bible comes alive in this. :read:

A kiss from your gentile sister in Messiah :cheekkiss:

Lowlee


"My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27
04-27-2009 02:29 PM
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Malkah
Ish Milchamah - Man of War


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Post: #10
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Lowlee Wrote:

Malkah Wrote:
God is not predjudiced, although He does say that salvation was for the Jew first, then the gentile. He chose the Jews as a way of blessing and offering salvation to everyone.:thumbsup:

But at the point this scripture was spoken, there were only Jewish Christians, no gentiles. They were a "little flock"

But Jesus had no intention of keeping them thus. He knew he had other sheep, gentiles, all over the world to be called and saved and grafted in to the olive tree. They would become "one flock." Jew and gentile, one in messiah.

If you're raised a Jew (as I was) its a pretty amazing and humbling thing to realise that God wishes to bless all nations through his son. It can be quite a stumbling block to Jews coming to Jesus to learn that we are no better or worse than the gentiles.

Jesus has one flock. It began in the fold of Judaism and Israel, and in now a flock of all tongues, all nations, all cultures. One flock. Children of the living God, cleansed through the blood of his son.

There is one hope, one faith, one baptism, one God, one Father, one Lord, one master, one church. Everything in Jesus is about reconciliation, not division.


Hi Sis Malkah,

How are you? :hug:

As an x-jdubber here, I find your post comforting and how I see it too.

You as a Jew and me as a gentile are together as one flock with one shepherd. It is fantastic to contemplate this. :thumbsup: The Bible comes alive in this. :read:

A kiss from your gentile sister in Messiah :cheekkiss:

Lowlee


A kiss right back to you Lowlee:cheekkiss:

There are only two sorts of people at the end of the day, God's children, and those who aren't God's children. Those in the Spirit, and those who walk according to the flesh.

I've yet to see any sort of scriptual evidence for two classes of Christians. If we're not annointed, spirit-filled, blood-bought children of the Most High, then we're still in our sins and dead to God.

The WT speculation is interesting, but doesn't stand on anything solid.

Everything is about unity and reconciliation in scripture. REconciliation of man and God, and, finally, reconciliation of Heaven and Earth. The WT is all about division.


Adonai,
Ish Milchamah.
Adonai hu sh'mo.

Baruch HaShem, melech haOlam.

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
-Mahatma Gandhi
04-27-2009 02:39 PM
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man hu
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Post: #11
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Key: Dk. blue - scriptures. Light blue - the aulen/courtyard/pen in the countryside. Teal - the aulen in town. Purple -think about it.

Susanna Wrote:
Dear vicki
To be honest with you, no ! I have not considered any of the above.
Being that we are Reasoning on the Scriptures, I will perk up and listen to your explanation.
susanna :grouphug:


Well let me explain what a sheep fold was.
I don't want you to feel you are being pushed in any way though.

A sheep fold was a stone walled pen. It kept sheep penned in, but more importantly was designed as a protection, keeping wolves and bandits out.

-------------------------------------------------------

Outside town, in the valleys a sheep pen would be four high stone walls topped with a crown of thorns and an entrance just wide enough to admit sheep. Before night fell, the sheep would be led down the valley, and once the sheep were safely inside, the shepherd would light a fire on the outside of the opening, and he would lie across the entrance just on the inside, becoming the gate.

In the towns the pen was often a courtyard in a house. A single gate in the courtyard was guarded by the gate keeper who may have been the house owner. He checked the sheep in from various shepherds he knew, who paid him for the use of his courtyard. He often would guard the gate himself, or the shepherds would take turns. When the long night was over and morning came the shepherds would return, the gatekeeper would open to the shepherds whom he knew, and each shepherd would call his sheep by name and they would come out from among the other flocks.

The shepherd would then lead them out and take them to the pastures, where they could feed themselves.

Jesus combines these two scenarios in John 10. Hence he is the gate and yet also there is a gatekeeper.

A shepherd almost has eyes in the back of his head.
He is watching all around even when leading the sheep, making them feel secure.
I have seen these types of shepherds in the Mediterranean. They move their sheep from field to field always finding fresh grass and making sure the field is not nibbled too much, so they can return again and again. (Actually they often use goats to lead out in single file and follow up the rear). I saw a shepherd standing in the middle of the road, with a staff, whilst moving sheep from one field to the next. He was braving off French drivers, whom I suspect are more ferocious than wolves.

He stood his ground watching drivers from both directions so much that no one dared budge foreward.


So a sheep pen, or sheepfold was a place of safety, a protection, during the dark dangerous night, it provided no pasturage, and required that the sheep be let out as soon as it was daylight.

A shepherd would not take sheep out of one pen and put them in another, but instead during daylight would lead them to pastures, whilst watching over their safety all the time.

The sheep would feed themselves under the protective gaze of the shepherd.
Confined in a pen, sheep relied on others to either let them out or feed them.
This is a bit of historic background.

The important question is what does this protective pen represent?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
04-27-2009 05:21 PM
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man hu
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RE: One Flock One Shepherd

What was the protective pen? contd.

Galatians 3:23 says,
" However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed.
Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor"


My suggestion, after reading Galations, is that the promise to Abraham is based on his faith, a faith so strong he was willing to sacrifice his son.
Because of his faith, he was guaranteed offspring that would be so numerous they would be like the dust, like the sand on the seashore, and like the stars of the heaven. All those on earth and in heaven will be considered his offspring if they display the faith he has.

Abraham's offspring needed to be protected until the real object of faith arrived and that was Jesus.

***In the scriptures: For faith also read trust. For faithful also read trusting.***

I suggest that protection was the law of Moses.


It is restictive, pens them in, keeps them separate and protects them from outside influences, and the only way out is through Jesus laying down his life.

Jesus said he was the gate in John 10. What was he a gate of?
He was the only means of exit from the Law Covenant.
Christ released Abraham's physical offspring from the law by purchase, he lay down his life even to the point of becoming a curse.
Galatians 3:13 Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us.
The law was a protection but the Israelites were cramped, Jesus released them.

Galatians 3:23 However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law.

So my suggestion is that the protective, but confining pen was the law covenant, introduced through Moses to protect the Israelites.

The gate, Jesus, like a shepherd at the entrance, laid himself down for the safety of the sheep and became their means of exit.

Interestingly, the WT '84, 2/15 para. 5 also says it is the Law covenant of Moses.

" By a miraculous birth on earth he had been born into the nation of Israel, in the year 2 B.C.E. Thus he came under the Law covenant that Jehovah, the Shepherd of Israel, had made with that chosen people. That Law covenant, with its Ten Commandments, had been mediated in behalf of the nation of Israel by the prophet Moses. (Galatians 4:4, 5) And Jesus, as a member of that chosen people, was born as one of the figurative sheep of which Jehovah was the Supreme Shepherd. Jesus himself was thus in a figurative sheepfold, the favored relationship with the Divine Shepherd as protected by the wall-like Mosaic Law covenant.

5 Are we here identifying the sheepfold of John chapter 10, verse 1, with the Mosaic Law covenant arrangement? Why, yes! "


Unfortunately after this the WT goes into yogic position gobbledygook, to make the idea of 144,000 fit in.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
04-27-2009 07:23 PM
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Totaldismay
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Post: #13
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Hi SIS, hu

"I suggest that protection was the law of Moses.

It is restictive, pens them in, keeps them separate from the outside influences, and the only way out is through Jesus laying down his life."
"Christ released Abraham's physical offspring from the law by purchase, he lay down his life even to the point of becoming a curse."

I follow you up till this part above.

The LAW of moses was only for they jews and Jesus shed blood ransoms us all back.
The Gentiles were called Gentiles because they were a law unto themselves they did not follow the true GOD.

could be wrong but I think you are half correct.
Not trying to be a stickler. Just trying to make sure things make sense to me.

04-27-2009 07:35 PM
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man hu
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RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Totaldismay Wrote:
The LAW of moses was only for the jews and Jesus shed blood ransoms us all back.
The Gentiles were called Gentiles because they were a law unto themselves they did not follow the true GOD.

could be wrong but I think you are half correct.
Not trying to be a stickler. Just trying to make sure things make sense to me.

?
Christ laying his life down releases the Israelites from the mosaic covenant, the pen.

Christ as the second Adam laying down his life also enables all humanity, including Israelites to attain eternal life.
The blood of Christ multitasks.


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04-27-2009 08:00 PM
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gogh
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Post: #15
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

re: "the pen."

...it seems most translations do not use the word pen.

...


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
04-27-2009 08:07 PM
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