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One Flock One Shepherd
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man hu
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Post: #16
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

gogh Wrote:
re: "the pen."

...it seems most translations do not use the word pen.

...

You are right, but it is easy to confuse fold and flock so that is why I used the word pen.
The Greek word aulen actually means courtyard (833 strongs) and does not have the word for sheep probata in it at all.
So if the word pen worries you, use the word courtyard instead.
The ground was hard and compact, there was certainly no pasturage there, but it was usually open to the stars.

These aulen also existed in the countryside, so courtyard does not quite translate the word either. To understand Jesus laying down his life like a shepherd in the country, we have to visualise this walled in area with Jesus the protector at the opening.


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04-27-2009 08:25 PM
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gogh
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Post: #17
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Re: "So if the word pen worries you,"

The word pen does not bother/worry me. The word pen has not, nor (probably) never will bother me....grin.

The word courtyard seems a much more applicable word; describing an encloser of which would also require a gateway and gate (or doorway and door).

Thanks for your very valued contributions, Vicky

Christian love and appreciation,

gogh


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
04-27-2009 08:51 PM
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Totaldismay
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Post: #18
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

man hu Wrote:

Totaldismay Wrote:
The LAW of moses was only for the jews and Jesus shed blood ransoms us all back.
The Gentiles were called Gentiles because they were a law unto themselves they did not follow the true GOD.

could be wrong but I think you are half correct.
Not trying to be a stickler. Just trying to make sure things make sense to me.

?
Christ laying his life down releases the Israelites from the mosaic covenant, the pen.

Christ as the second Adam laying down his life also enables all humanity, including Israelites to attain eternal life.
The blood of Christ multitasks.



ok I am unfortunately a one track minded person. Your comment was about christ being the gate to the pen. your qoutes above sound to my ears like he opens the gate by means of his blood and does away with the curse of law.

is that incorect? if it is that is maybe what I am miss reading.

If it is not i am wondering how the gentiles who never were in a pen are released from a law they never followed.

do you understand my disconnect.?

04-27-2009 09:43 PM
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gogh
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Post: #19
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Re: "...i am wondering how the gentiles who never were in a pen are released from a law they never followed."

(MSG) "You need to know that I have other sheep in addition to those in this pen. I need to gather and bring them, too. They'll also recognize my voice. Then it will be one flock, one Shepherd." (John 10:16)

:coffeeread:


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04-27-2009 10:15 PM
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Totaldismay
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Post: #20
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

gogh Wrote:
Re: "...i am wondering how the gentiles who never were in a pen are released from a law they never followed."

(MSG) "You need to know that I have other sheep in addition to those in this pen. I need to gather and bring them, too. They'll also recognize my voice. Then it will be one flock, one Shepherd." (John 10:16)

:coffeeread:



I am not sure what your point is brother. this is the crux of my confusion. If Christ came to open the way by doing away with the "mosaic law" which the gentiles did not follow as far as i can tell.


Anywhoo the one flock seems to be those who were released from the pen to go out to pasture with whom? were the gentiles ever in a pen?
it seems that they were to go out and be one flock in the feild under guidance of the shepard.
seems that the gentiles were already in the field? and without law?
The thing that has me is the mosaic law was a tutor leading to the christ.
the Law christ did away with was mans law it seems to me not God's which would be the ten commandments which are principles of guidance.
24"(A)If I had not done among them (B)the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.

25"But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their ©Law, '(D)THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.'

MEN took a great set of guidlines the ten commandments and made opresive laws and rules that Jesus came to do away with it seems to me. the saducees and pharasees seem like ordinary ole lawyers from what I have read. the main difference from our lawyers today seems to be they were supposed to be judges according to GOD's law as opposed to our current lawyers who seem to lay no claim ofknowing GOD.
John 19:7
The Jews answered him, " We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."
Acts 5:34
But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time.

38"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that (A)through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

39and through Him (B)everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

40"Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of ©in the Prophets may not come upon you:

cts 15:5
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

we know how this ended. no snip snip needed to be a convert to the way of christ.
cts 18:13
saying, "This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law."
I believe even a gentile leader made the distinction
Acts 18:15
but if there are questions about words and names and your own law, look after it yourselves; I am unwilling to be a judge of these matters."


So again it seems to me that their is something missing. The law Jesus did away with was the judean's law of the time which was a law that was to a chosen people set aside by GOD himself.
Again that makes me wonder

Acts 21:28
crying out, "Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."


then paul,
Acts 23:3
Then Paul said to him, "God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Do you sit to try me according to the Law, and in violation of the Law order me to be struck?"

Acts 24:6
"And he even tried to desecrate the temple; and then we arrested him. [ We wanted to judge him according to our own Law.


All I am trying to get at is this thread is about a protective pen is it not? the gentiles had never been under the "protection" of God before Jesus came. So to conclude that all men were and are able to be released from this pen seems like a false idea. when in fact it clearly seems that it was and still is only the jews who have this gate to go out of a pen that they were in.

Granted many ex JW's put themselves in the very pen that the jews had. this is totally baggage they picked up at the airport. it didn't belong to them.

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

IT seems to me that gentiles have basically been without protection from GOD and are saved thru faith in addition to the jews who had law but were granted a release from law when it was nailed over our saviors head.
I think this is critical because many claim in todays day and age that "all law" is done away with. I believe it was not GOD"S law that was done away with it was man's misinterpretation of GOD's law.
Jesus seemed to give them a reinterpretation of what GOD himself meant. Jesus said put on the filter of LOVE over evry LAW then make a judgement not to over look people who knowingly sin.
which seems also to be made clear by the things JEsus held against the "churches of revelations" any who sinned were cast off when they knew better.

Do you see where I am going?

04-28-2009 12:36 AM
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man hu
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Post: #21
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

In the evening the good shepherd lays himself down within the confines of the pen, or mosaic law, he puts his life on the line for his sheep, but in the morning he rises up and lets his sheep out of the pen. Then he leads them out and they find pasturage.

Then Jesus says he has other sheep not of this pen, but he will bring those along and they will become one flock under the one shepherd.

This is the crux of the point. If we accept that those in the pen were the ones following the law, then the ones outside the pen must be the Gentiles, who join the Jews and Samaritans, becoming one flock.

You are right Total, the Gentiles were not within the walls of this pen (save for the alien residents in the land).

Totaldismay Wrote:
it seems that they were to go out and be one flock in the field under guidance of the shepherd.
seems that the gentiles were already in the field? and without law?
The thing that has me is the mosaic law was a tutor leading to the christ

John 10:16 And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. 17 This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my soul, in order that I may receive it again.

So the Gentiles are not in the fields of pasture, the shepherd has to bring them. He calls them, they hear his voice, especially with the aid of the Holy Spirit, and they come and mingle with the sheep from the pen so that they are indistinguishable. They are one flock under one shepherd. No one could tell which sheep came from which group, save for the shepherd, who has called each one by name.
He is looking over all his sheep with the same care.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus.

Totaldismay Wrote:
The thing that has me is the mosaic law was a tutor leading to the christ

Well if you read Galatians, it is actually talking about faith all the way through.

That faith started with Abraham and culminated in putting faith/trust in Jesus, which is what his sheep do.

The 'tutor' paidagogos, was a slave who took a young boy from home to school delivering him safely whilst educating him on the way. Thus the slave was also an instructor. The law took the decendants of Abraham and delivered them safely to Christ.

From that core group the preaching could spread, so sheep that had not been in the confines of the law, could also hear the shepherds voice.

So if we accept that the walls of the pen are those of the mosaic law, then the group inside and the group outside must be the Jews and the Gentiles, which become indistinguishable.

There is no second pen to wall off the two groups. A shepherd would not take his sheep out of a pen in the morning and then take them elsewhere, to lock them up again. Once released they need feeding in the pastures. That is where he leads them.
The WT tries to suggest there is a second pen that keeps these two groups separate. If you can find it in the scriptures let me know.
The WT also confuses this parable with the words of Jesus at Luke 12:32.
It is called mixed metaphores. The little flock in Luke 12 is nothing to do with the sheep in the pen in John 10. Again if there is a vague link it needs to be proved.


I suggest anyone who is a little confused read Galatians 3 alongside John 10.


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04-28-2009 02:31 AM
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man hu
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Post: #22
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

One final point........ you will get rid of me soon :D

I think the gatekeeper in the example of the courtyard of the house, is John the baptist.
The false shepherds who stole ravaged and devoured the sheep were the pharisees and sadducees. As the gatekeeper, he spotted them instantly, and would not let them near the sheep in his courtyard. He certainly would not baptise them, giving them an air of respectability.
He would be vigilant, spotting any trying to climb over the wall.
On the other hand he would recognise the fine shepherd.


Matt. 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·de´a, saying: “REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.” This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, people! Make his roads straight.’” But this very John had his clothing of camel’s hair and a leather girdle around his loins; his food too was insect locusts and wild honey. Then Jerusalem and all Ju·de´a and all the country around the Jordan made their way out to him, and people were baptized by him in the Jordan River, openly confessing their sins.

Matt. 3:7 When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: you offspring of vipers, who has intimated to you to flee from the coming wrath? So then produce fruit that befits repentance and
For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire. Then Jesus came from Gal´i·lee to the Jordan to John, in order to be baptized by him. But the latter tried to prevent him, saying: “I am the one needing to be baptized by you, and are you coming to me?”


I quoted from the NWT even though it is far from the best.


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04-28-2009 09:16 AM
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Totaldismay
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Post: #23
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Sorry Sis,

You have now added one more bit to be confusing to me.

IF John is the gatekeeper is would be akin to the man who had the coutryard where the shepards brought their sheep.

That would make Jesus the GOOD shepard.

So it seems that any other shepard that would come to this gatekeeper would not be able to call out the sheep belonging to Jesus. the only way they could get to the sheep guarded by the gate keeper would be by steeling sheep.

11For (A)the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp.

12Therefore Jesus also, (B)that He might sanctify the people ©through His own blood, suffered (D)outside the gate.

04-28-2009 10:59 AM
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man hu
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Post: #24
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Totaldismay Wrote:
Sorry Sis,

You have now added one more bit to be confusing to me.
IF John is the gatekeeper is would be akin to the man who had the coutryard where the shepards brought their sheep.
That would make Jesus the GOOD shepard.
So it seems that any other shepard that would come to this gatekeeper would not be able to call out the sheep belonging to Jesus. the only way they could get to the sheep guarded by the gate keeper would be by steeling sheep.

11For (A)the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp.
12Therefore Jesus also, (B)that He might sanctify the people ©through His own blood, suffered (D)outside the gate.


Dear Total

"IF John is the gatekeeper it would be akin to the man who had the courtyard where the shepherds brought their sheep.

That would make Jesus the GOOD shepherd.

So it seems that any other shepherd that would come to this gatekeeper would not be able to call out the sheep belonging to Jesus. The only way they could get to the sheep guarded by the gate keeper would be by stealing sheep"
.

This is absolutely right. The sheep would not exit the compound at the voice of a strange shepherd, even if the gatekeeper had allowed the shepherd to keep his sheep there overnight. It is Jesus' sheep who 'hear' his voice. The holy spirit resonates with their spirit. If the other shepherds wanted the sheep of the GOOD shepherd they would have to steal them and try to make off with them by force. A vigilant gatekeeper would not allow this.

I am not sure why you are quoting those scriptures though, as they are dealing with one aspect of christ's death.


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04-28-2009 11:21 AM
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Totaldismay
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Post: #25
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Hi Sis,

I am not trying to be a pain I am just naturally good at it..

I just feel there is a something more here.

Jesus althou being born in the pen actually suffer as one of us without law it seems to me. And was treated as he was without LAW. And was murdered for it.
12Therefore Jesus also, (B)that He might sanctify the people ©through His own blood, suffered (D)outside the gate.

04-28-2009 12:34 PM
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gogh
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Post: #26
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Hi TotalD

Re: "...I am not sure what your point is brother."

Sorry for making a point clear. Making points are not something I do well...grin. (I honestly thought the scripture completely answered your question...) terrible at charades (the game) as well...grin.

It seems the MSG (transliteration) ..by using the word "pen" instead of "flock"...is more true to the original greek. (This was a main point, TotalD).


You describe the old law as "...a protective pen is it not?"; as well you describe it as "totally baggage they picked up at the airport."

You are correct in both counts, imo...grin.

Even thought the law was a protection (as it was from YHVH), it was also something that could not be followed perfectly (by any other than our Master Jesus). Therefore the law, although being protection, was also a burden. The shed blood of our Master Jesus did more than free those under the burden of law; it freed all men.

For interest...another scripture from MSG that uses the "pen" word...

John 10:1...

"Let me set this before you as plainly as I can. If a person climbs over or through the fence of a sheep pen instead of going through the gate, you know he's up to no good--a sheep rustler!
The shepherd walks right up to the gate.
The gatekeeper opens the gate to him and the sheep recognize his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
When he gets them all out, he leads them and they follow because they are familiar with his voice."

"sheep pen" makes so much more sense than "flock"; as climbing over a fence could only relate to the pen/surround/coral, (not to the inhabitants of the encloser).

Christian love and appreciation,

gogh


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
04-28-2009 12:44 PM
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man hu
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Post: #27
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Totaldismay Wrote:
Hi Sis,

I am not trying to be a pain I am just naturally good at it..

I just feel there is a something more here.

Jesus althou being born in the pen actually suffer as one of us without law it seems to me. And was treated as he was without LAW. And was murdered for it.
12Therefore Jesus also, (B)that He might sanctify the people ©through His own blood, suffered (D)outside the gate.


OK I think I have figured what you are saying.
You are quoting Hebrews 13:11-13
The writer is comparing the sacrifice for atonement to that of Jesus' sacrifice.

Many of the animals slaughtered at the temple became part of a great religious BBQ within the temple. The fat of the animal was made to smoke, and was a restful odour. I am sure it smelled great. The priests could eat this barbequed food.

On the other hand with the sacrifice for atonement, the blood was taken into the Most Holy, but the sins of the people were on the carcasses, so these were not eaten, but taken outside the city and burned.
Because Jesus bore our sins on his body he also had to die outside the city. He was still within the mosaic law, which is why the mosaic law was enforced, and being considered unclean, like a leper, that is why he was killed and buried outside the city.

Hebrews 13:10 We have an altar from which those who do sacred service at the tent have no authority to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is taken into the holy place by the high priest for sin are burned up outside the camp. 12 Hence Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Let us, then, go forth to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach he bore,

So it was part of the mosaic law that the blood be in the Most Holy yet the body outside the camp. So Jesus died within the mosaic law or the symbolic pen.


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04-28-2009 03:55 PM
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BethelBoy
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Post: #28
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

ONE SHEPHERD? or TWO?



John 10:16
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15

PS 23
1 The LORD is my shepherd;
I shall not want.

Matt 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Mark 10:18
So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

Luke 18:19
So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.


11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.


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Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you. And he went his way and proclaimed throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.

04-29-2009 09:15 AM
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man hu
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Post: #29
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Dear Wayne, do you have anything to add to the topic of the identity of the other sheep and those in the pen? Would love to hear your research on the matter.

In England a woman was evicted from her flat for playing continuously "I Will Always Love You" by Whitney Huston. I am sure her neighbours quite liked the song, but when she insisted on playing it day and night, it was deemed that this was antisocial.

You seem to have a need to keep playing the same old chipped record.
Try to turn down the volume and keep it to trinitarian topics.

vicky


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04-29-2009 09:40 AM
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BethelBoy
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Post: #30
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Hi Vicky, Just making a point on the second half " ONE SHEPHERD "

But as to this little flock of 144,000 the numbers will NEVER add up.


Even Mr. Russell would agree.

the taz Wrote:
The Finished Mystery on page 29 we learn of the extent of this persecution where (Charles Russell claims there were 861,000 martyrs in this ten year period alone. We know that all of the true Christians would not be martyred so the number of Christians, even in the fourth century. would have been very large.


the taz Wrote:
The Finished Mystery on page 27 where he wrote about this Roman persecution and said that in the year 95 C.E. alone there were 40,000 who suffered martyrdom.



Then we have Scripture

Acts 21:20
And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;

Myriad definition = Constituting a very large, indefinite number; innumerable:

("The same word 'myriads" is used in the text in Jude 14 in the New world Translation. There is a footnote in the large revised 1984 edition which says. "holy tens of thousands.")

Heb 12:22 ( speaking of angels )
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,

Acts 2:41, 3,000 were added. 2:47 "daily those being saved." 4:4 "about five thousand." 9:42, 17:12, & 19:18 "many." 13:48, "All those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers." and 26:10 says there were "Many of the holy ones."

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, On page 31 they write,

"They [Christians carried out a disciple making work with outspokenness and zeal; as a result, literally thousands of persons abandoned false religions systems and became Christians."

This was not speaking about Jews, but about Gentiles. Again we note that "thousands" were converted to Christianity, further increasing the number of Christians.

page 32 is very important. It reads.

"History confirms that persecution by authorities of the Roman Empire failed to stamp out the early Christian witness of Jehovah."

On the same page there is a picture of martyrs dying in a Roman coliseum. It is believed that at least 250,000 died as martyrs during this early persecution.


So I see that the Little flock is sounding pretty BIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also have a question or 2 or 3 as to Rev 7

Do the annointed left alive ever tell you what tribe they are from?

Isn't the " Great multitude " in v9 Heaven?

“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.


NOW FOR A BIG!!!!! FAT!!!!!! LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dec. 15, 1988 Watchtower on page 9 which reads, "

Thus, beginning particularly at Pentecost 33 C.E.. a second invitation was extended to the despised and lowly ones of the Jewish nation. But not enough responded to fill the l44,000- places in God's heavenly Kingdom."

Sorry I believe God's word over this dribble.

Acts 21:20
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;



Just a few reasons why things just don't add up.

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:[/quote]






man hu Wrote:
Dear Wayne, do you have anything to add to the topic of the identity of the other sheep and those in the pen? Would love to hear your research on the matter.

In England a woman was evicted from her flat for playing continuously "I Will Always Love You" by Whitney Huston. I am sure her neighbours quite liked the song, but when she insisted on playing it day and night, it was deemed that this was antisocial.

You seem to have a need to keep playing the same old chipped record.
Try to turn down the volume and keep it to trinitarian topics.

vicky


http://www.uplook.org
http://www.voicesforchrist.org/order.html

Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you. And he went his way and proclaimed throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.

04-29-2009 08:49 PM
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