Latest News: The Great Trubulation


Pages (4): « First < Previous 1 2 [3] 4 Next > Last »
One Flock One Shepherd
Author Message
Malkah
Ish Milchamah - Man of War


Posts: 596
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #31
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

"The Taz"


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


Adonai,
Ish Milchamah.
Adonai hu sh'mo.

Baruch HaShem, melech haOlam.

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
-Mahatma Gandhi
04-30-2009 03:42 AM
Find all posts by this user
Susanna
Member


Posts: 484
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Oct 2010
Status: Offline
Post: #32
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Dear man hu
Thank you for the explanation,that I just now found and read .
I also reread it.
That was a beautiful picture as to how trustful the sheep are to their shepherd.and if that shepherd is a loving shepherd, he will care for them as our true shepherd Jesus Christ would want them cared for. Jesus himself was likened to a sheep, there he became the lamb ( sacrificial ) of God/
John the Baptist pointed Jesus out as the Lamb of God then in Revelation he also is called the Lamb .

I understand the part of how protective a shepherd is with his sheep, that's why Jesus warned about wolves being in sheeps clothing. . Jesus sheep, that heard and know the voice of their shepherd , will not listen to the voice of the stranger,
Apparently, Jesus voice has gone out and most here have recognized and are gathering, to be directed to the Little flock.

I also understand that Jesus died for all of mankind and do understand that the Jewish Nation were not all receptive of Jesus being the promised seed,
i understand because of this there were the grafting in of the gentile branches.
These grafting's replaced the Jews that the promised Royal Priesthood was to come out of.
But then you lost me .

I still see the little flock as the 144,000 and the other sheep as the subjects here on earth. Jesus did say to the Little flock he had other sheep that were not of this fold ( little flock ) John 10:16,
In distinguishing the two , When Jesus separates the sheep from the goats it is how the sheep treated the least of these ( Jesus ) brothers that are marked as sheep. Matt 25:31-46 Luke 12:32

It seems very hard to believe that there are millions of people entertaining the hope of living here on earth, that are all wrong. Just because that strong desire came through the teachings of the JWs doesn't make it wrong.
That desire for eternal life was implanted in us from the beginning. No one wants to die.
Adam was created with eternal life in view had he been obedient,

Jesus buying back what Adam lost gave Adams desire for eternal life to his off spring.
The scales of Justice in that Ransom were balanced. As the Law brought out a life for a life, the Nation of Isreal also knew it would take a perfect life for a perfect life, Knowing not one of them ( imperfect man ) could buy back what Adam lost.

Jehovah's whole purpose to begin with for mankind was to fill the earth The Mosaic Law was a tutor that lead the Jews to Christ.
He becoming the ransom sacrifice. to buy back what Adam lost ? Rom 5:12 Ps 49:7-9

The Ransom sacrifice is the main doctrine of the bible , with the Kingdom being the main Theme of the Bible. Gen 3:15 that's what separates us from others in th world.
Had Adam been obedient there would be no need for a Kingdom or the 1000 year promised reign. With out understanding Gods purpose to begin with ,the Greek scriptures only leave the hope of heaven or hell for Christendom. They are in the dark as to what Gods real purpose was / is for mankind. Matt 20:28
Rev 7:16-17 is what will take place during the 1000 year reign for the other sheep.

Now these are my thoughts on the scriptures so I only speak for my self.
love
stayawake
:grouphug:


Jehovah and one is a large army
05-16-2009 11:19 AM
Find all posts by this user
man hu
Babe and any other piggy names


Posts: 2,498
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #33
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Susanna Wrote:
Jesus did say to the Little flock he had other sheep that were not of this fold ( little flock ) John 10:16,


Er, no he did not! Hence the confusion! "Little Flock" does not occur anywhere in John 10 as far as I know.

The area of Palestine is agricultural. The top soil is not deep, so cannot support a load of cattle.
This is like Spain, cow's milk and certainly cow's cheese is rare in Spain. It is usually sheep and goat's cheese, because of the top soil.

So there are going to be alot of illustrations using sheep and goats in Palestine; there will not be loads of illustrations using cows, wildebeast, and buffalo.

So with all these agricultural parables involving sheep and goats, the important thing is not to mix one illustration with the other.


The illustration of the sheep and the goats in Mtt. 25 must not be mixed with other examples like the sheep inside and outside of the pen in John 10, or mixed with the illustration of the little flock in Luke 12.
These are three different illustrations.


The sheep in the pen in John 10 are not called little flocklet! The number of the sheep in the pen is not even mentioned.

------------------------------


In Luke 12 Jesus is talking about relying on our father to feed and clothe us. The context shows this, then he says 'have no fear little herdlet or flocklet'.

The Greek word poimne can refer to a herd of cows or a flock of sheep.

Jesus uses the Greek word poimn i on, which can mean a little herd or a little flock. It is the diminutive of poimne, hence 'herdlet' or 'flocklet'.
He was not emphasising what type of animal they were but instead that they felt small.
He in fact emphasised it twice as in first saying 'little' mikron then saying the diminutive 'herdlet' or 'flocklet'.
In Luke 12, He is talking about birds, lilies, all sorts of things in the context of Jehovah providing for them.
This scripture is telling us all to 'seek first the kingdom'. It is not talking about different 'hopes'.
So Jesus is using language like little lambkins, don't worry!

------------------------------

This is not what he is discussing in John 10.
He is discussing sheep that have been penned in for their own safety, and these sheep can only be released through him putting his life on the line, lying down in the evening, rising up in the morning, and letting these 'penned in' ones out, because he is the gate that can let them out.
The pen is the Mosaic covenant and he nailed it to the stake, did away with it, the Mosaic covenant was only a tutor leading to him anyway.

He then says he has other sheep that have not been in this protective/restrictive pen; they will also hear his voice be drawn to him and mingle with the ones that have been drawn out of the pen, and become one flock under the one shepherd.

So there is neither Jew nor Gentile neither male or female.

Galatians.

vicky


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
05-16-2009 03:59 PM
Find all posts by this user
gogh
Participator


Posts: 3,239
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #34
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Hi Susanna

Great to read your comments.

Re: "I still see the little flock as the 144,000 and the other sheep as the subjects here on earth."

Might the religious leaders have understood Jesus phrase "little flock" to mean Jews? Might the religious leaders have understood Jesus phrase "other sheep" to mean non Jews?

If what Jesus spoke (mentioning "little flock" and "other sheep"), meant what your current understanding is; how would it have made sense and what could his audience have learned/benefited?

When Jesus spoke these words to religious leaders, can we suppose they understood what he meant? It seems they did, as they all the more so wanted to kill him...(John 10:31..." Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him.")

Christian love,

gogh


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
05-16-2009 04:04 PM
Find all posts by this user
man hu
Babe and any other piggy names


Posts: 2,498
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #35
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

We will be discussing this tomorrow in the think tank. Now I didn't realise how much the WT has messed with the covenants, to upkeep their two tier system. Our whole understanding of the covenants has been rearranged, and up-graded when flaws were exposed.
So I need help.
Has anyone got evidence in the scriptures that the Abrahamic Covenant ends, or that the Abrahamic Covenant enclosed people, or separated them off? That the New Covenant ends and if so when? Is there evidence that the promise for a kingdom rulership ends?

All this unilateral/bilateral nonesense.

Unilateral is a promise, no conditions. Bilateral is a contract with a mediator.
So far I have found two promises and two contracts, are there any more, and is there an end to anything more than the first Mosaic contract?
Was the threat/promise to Adam also part of this?
Many do not join us in the think tank, so give us some feed back if you cannot join us.

vicky


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
05-16-2009 08:29 PM
Find all posts by this user
Susanna
Member


Posts: 484
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Oct 2010
Status: Offline
Post: #36
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Question : just who are these millions that know the true God and hope to live here on earth ?

I am serious : who are we?

We cannot be the Great Growd that came out of the Great tribulation,
as the Great Tribulation has not started yet ? That crowd has yet to respond , to the two witnesses ,as to whom will they belong , will be what will divide mankind, Jesus Christ or the Beast. We have not reached that point in time yet > Revelation 11 th chapter.

Yet at the same time we will be judged as to how we treated Jesus Christ brothers or the little Flock. Matt 25:31-46.
Just who are these millions in our time frame that hope to live thru the GT, if we aren't the other sheep ?

Please anyone ,I'm lost here.
stayawake :grouphug:


Jehovah and one is a large army
05-16-2009 09:46 PM
Find all posts by this user
man hu
Babe and any other piggy names


Posts: 2,498
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #37
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

They (we) are the spiritual Israelites: The cleansed twelve tribes of Israel in Revelation 7. (Dan and Ephraim, were considered responsible for idolatry, the setting up of the two golden calves, and thus they were removed. Ephraim's faithfull father, Joseph is added instead, so Joseph still gets the double portion, and Dan is replaced by the Levites who opposed this idolatry and were also faithfull in the two tribe kingdom at the temple.

These spiritual Israelites are not the same as the 144,000, since at some time the 144,000 (future) are sealed out of the 'spiritual Israelites'.
Some people talk about the literal lost tribes of Israel, well these are the lost tribes of spiritual Israel, because the WT has lost them, by fudging the distinction between them and the 144,000 often saying they are one and the same.

That is like saying the whole vast nation of Israel and the first born of that nation that left Egypt are one and the same people. Jehovah bought the firstborn, by the blood, but the whole nation left Egypt. Later Jehovah exchanged the firstborn whom he owned, for the priests, the Levites, to serve the nation, he didn't exchange the whole nation.

The sheep in Mtt. 25 treat Jesus' brothers kindly during hardship. I don't think that time of severe hardship has occurred yet. It happens when Jesus arrives in glory and sits down on his throne of glory.
Since it has not happened yet, we would have to be the other ones, the already existing group of Jesus' brothers.
Also note he is separating the nations. The nations are those who have not submitted to his kingdom rule. In Revelation 7, they are the spiritual Gentiles, 'all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues'. The Great Crowd come out of the nations. These sheep and goats are the spiritual Gentiles, a mixed bunch of sheep and goats in the world, who in the final analysis show their true colours; not through biblical knowledge but innate goodness to Christ's brothers. This is probably at the time when it is impossible for Christ's brothers to buy or sell unless they have accepted the mark of allegiance to the beast.
This too is future.


The little flock in Luke are not Jews, Gentiles spiritual or otherwise. In the illustration, they are purely those who feel small and timid, but are told to put their faith in Jehovah for their daily needs. Do not attach them to ovine ruminants in other parables.

Only the WT amazingly takes symbols from different parables strings them together and then applies the whole caboodle to themselves,

The WT has a habit of going through the scriptures saying everything applies to the 144,000, and whoops oh goodie the Gov. Bod. just happens to be........you got it, the 144,000 ( I don't think this number has even been sealed yet, that happens when the temple is measured I think, also future), so we had better listen to them, because the Bible doesn't apply to us, in fact as everything applies to them, there is no room left for anything to apply to us.

So according to Gov. Bod., the 24 elders who happen to be in heaven before the resurrection to heaven has started........are the 144,000. :funnyface:

Laughably, according to Gov. Bod., the demonic hoard with stings in their tails are the...... 144,000
These serpentine scorpion creatures are also called the first two woes???? Yeh, well maybe that does apply to Gov. Bod.
Check Luke 10:17-20.
To make this balance out they say the third woe is the kingdom :funnyface: when Revelation 12 says it is the casting of Satan to the earth.


A more egocentric bunch you could not find!

By the way, I don't know where 'they' (us) are going to live...... John 14.
Don't fret about it.
Check the scriptures relating to Abraham, he is going to be a king and will be entering the house of God. Sarah was named a princess.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
05-17-2009 02:00 AM
Find all posts by this user
smoldering wick
ratio est radius divini luminus


Posts: 2,055
Group: Moderator
Joined: Jan 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #38
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Hi Vicky, Susanna and Gogh,

The confusion is as you say, Vicky. The GB/FDS/WT keeps applying what it needs to validate its existence.

If I say, for example, that I am more than mere Christian—that I have been specially appointed/anointed and approved via some supposed 1918-1919 inspection (which by the way, desperately needs the 1914 validation stamp) and so I am the chosen vessel i.e. the FDS—well I’m gonna do my darnedest to stay approved whether God approves me or not.

So really, this is a fight to be right at all costs (the reason the WT is growing cultish horns), which explains why they resort to playing the scripture shell game. These are doctrines—the “little flock” doctrine, the “other sheep” doctrine—they are built on singular scriptures which are quite ambiguous. These are: “Have no fear, little flock,” said once by Jesus. “I have other sheep that are not of this fold,” also said once. And Jesus said only once that these would become “one flock, one shepherd.”

There is nothing to indicate that the “other sheep” are not gentiles. In fact most commentators assume it for that reason. There are no scriptures to say otherwise. It was the WT that presumed to say the “other sheep” were not gentiles. But I go one step further. Remember that the WT also fudged the last supper to exclude Judas when Luke 22:17-22 explicitly says he was indeed there, to which the WT gives no scriptural proof that he was not? The best they can come up with is found in the w68 11/15 p. 704 "Questions From Readers—Had Judas Iscariot left already when Jesus instituted the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal?"

After discrediting Luke by saying he "did not always follow a strictly chronological order," they further reason that they do, without any other scripture is by responding to vs. 29 where it says "You are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials" (which he said later), to which the WT responds that 'Surely Jesus would not have included Judas.' But "surely" is not proof. Neither is it a valid argument. It is mere subjective supposition. Go ahead, check it out—no other gospel writer contradicts Luke!

And this is the ONLY basis of excluding Judas from being offered the new covenant. This is because the WT melds the new covenant with the Kingdom covenant or vss. 29 and 30, so that the two covenants are really only one, with the “other sheep” being left out entirely. (the sole reason “other sheep” attending the Lord’s evening meal are not allowed to partake—they are simply not in the new/Kingdom covenant.)

This is a control issue (employed by cults) After all, how better could the “little flock” control the “other sheep” than to withhold—they who have a covenant to those without any covenant at all. If the WT begs to differ then it really must admit that by doing this it has put itself into the unscriptural position as intermediary and withholder of the new covenant from all outside. In short, they have prematurely seated themselves on Christ’s throne and will unfortunately be judged by Christ upon his return for being so presumptuous.

So I believe there are two classes all right, or should I say, a class enclave within the entire sheepfold, “other sheep” included. And I believe Luke was accurate when he recorded Jesus passing the emblems to Judas, including him in the new covenant. Where does it say otherwise? Was not Jesus the true seed (i.e. “‘and to your seed’, who is Christ?”— Galatians 3:16), excluding none from the new covenant who would either become Abraham’s seed or bless themselves through it?

So really, it’s the “covenant for a Kingdom” that separates the little flock (my opinion), since they have and will stick with Jesus “during his trials” as his closest brothers, those who share that seed of Abraham with the rest of humanity as kings and priests with Christ.

But where the rest of us who are in the new covenant will reside is anyone’s guess—Heaven? Earth? Or a piece of heaven on earth? As I have always maintained, it is God’s to give and ours to guess.

Affection In Christ,

sw


"What cannot be understood is no object of belief.” Isaac Newton.
----------------------------------------------------------------
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the urge to rule it.” H. L. Mencken
05-17-2009 02:21 PM
Find all posts by this user
Lowlee
Lee


Posts: 105
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2009
Status: Offline
Post: #39
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

smoldering wick Wrote:
Hi Vicky, Susanna and Gogh,

The confusion is as you say, Vicky. The GB/FDS/WT keeps applying what it needs to validate its existence.

If I say, for example, that I am more than mere Christian—that I have been specially appointed/anointed and approved via some supposed 1918-1919 inspection (which by the way, desperately needs the 1914 validation stamp) and so I am the chosen vessel i.e. the FDS—well I’m gonna do my darnedest to stay approved whether God approves me or not.

So really, this is a fight to be right at all costs (the reason the WT is growing cultish horns), which explains why they resort to playing the scripture shell game. These are doctrines—the “little flock” doctrine, the “other sheep” doctrine—they are built on singular scriptures which are quite ambiguous. These are: “Have no fear, little flock,” said once by Jesus. “I have other sheep that are not of this fold,” also said once. And Jesus said only once that these would become “one flock, one shepherd.”

There is nothing to indicate that the “other sheep” are not gentiles. In fact most commentators assume it for that reason. There are no scriptures to say otherwise. It was the WT that presumed to say the “other sheep” were not gentiles. But I go one step further. Remember that the WT also fudged the last supper to exclude Judas when Luke 22:17-22 explicitly says he was indeed there, to which the WT gives no scriptural proof that he was not? The best they can come up with is found in the w68 11/15 p. 704 "Questions From Readers—Had Judas Iscariot left already when Jesus instituted the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal?"

After discrediting Luke by saying he "did not always follow a strictly chronological order," they further reason that they do, without any other scripture is by responding to vs. 29 where it says "You are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials" (which he said later), to which the WT responds that 'Surely Jesus would not have included Judas.' But "surely" is not proof. Neither is it a valid argument. It is mere subjective supposition. Go ahead, check it out—no other gospel writer contradicts Luke!

And this is the ONLY basis of excluding Judas from being offered the new covenant. This is because the WT melds the new covenant with the Kingdom covenant or vss. 29 and 30, so that the two covenants are really only one, with the “other sheep” being left out entirely. (the sole reason “other sheep” attending the Lord’s evening meal are not allowed to partake—they are simply not in the new/Kingdom covenant.)

This is a control issue (employed by cults) After all, how better could the “little flock” control the “other sheep” than to withhold—they who have a covenant to those without any covenant at all. If the WT begs to differ then it really must admit that by doing this it has put itself into the unscriptural position as intermediary and withholder of the new covenant from all outside. In short, they have prematurely seated themselves on Christ’s throne and will unfortunately be judged by Christ upon his return for being so presumptuous.

So I believe there are two classes all right, or should I say, a class enclave within the entire sheepfold, “other sheep” included. And I believe Luke was accurate when he recorded Jesus passing the emblems to Judas, including him in the new covenant. Where does it say otherwise? Was not Jesus the true seed (i.e. “‘and to your seed’, who is Christ?”— Galatians 3:16), excluding none from the new covenant who would either become Abraham’s seed or bless themselves through it?

So really, it’s the “covenant for a Kingdom” that separates the little flock (my opinion), since they have and will stick with Jesus “during his trials” as his closest brothers, those who share that seed of Abraham with the rest of humanity as kings and priests with Christ.

But where the rest of us who are in the new covenant will reside is anyone’s guess—Heaven? Earth? Or a piece of heaven on earth? As I have always maintained, it is God’s to give and ours to guess.

Affection In Christ,

sw


Hi SW, :hibye:

Yeh, well the WT screwed up lots. :read: If I go by the bible by itself, then it is jew and gentile that is the one flock under one shepherd. :cheer: :thumbsup: And all this stuff about everyone not having the bread and wine is satanic in my mind. Somebody made a good post about this awhile ago.

:giverose: Sister Lee


"My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27
05-17-2009 02:51 PM
Find all posts by this user
BethelBoy
Member


Posts: 1,169
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Jan 2008
Status: Offline
Post: #40
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Does the Watchtower claim that the 'new light' about the generation that started in 1935 is their own interpretation of the 'great crowd'? Or does the Watchtower claim that a brilliant sparkling light from God revealed the generation of people destined by God himself to be the ones who will enter alive into the new earth following the destruction of Armegeddon? The answer to this question is found in the Watchtower's Revelation Its Grand Climax At Hand on pages 119-129. On page 119 in the box at the bottom, the Society says that Interpretations Belong to God. They say that it is only when the fulfillment is due that the correct interpretation is given by God.

How did this happen in 1935? One page 122 under the heading Confirming the Identity of the Great Crowd, they say, How can we state so positively that the great crowd is this modern-day group of dedicated Christians who hope to live forever on God's earth? This follows their statement on page 120 that, The understanding of Revelation 7:9-17 was now about to burst forth in all its sparkling brilliance. On page 120 the scene describing the revelation of the 'great crowd' is described. They say, The Watchtower magazine had repeatedly expressed the hope that a convention scheduled for May 30 to June 3, 1935, in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., would be "a real comfort and benefit" to those pictured by Jehonadab. That it proved to be! In a stirring talk on "The Great Multitude," delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, J. F. Rutherford, president of the Watch Tower Society, gave Scriptural proof that the modern-day other sheep are identical with that great crowd of Revelation 7:9.

At the climax of this talk, the speaker asked: "Will all those who have the hope of living forever on the earth please stand?" As a large part of the audience stood up, the president declared: "Behold! The great multitude!" There was a hush, followed by thunderous cheering. How elated was the John class-and also the Jehonadab group! On the following day, 840 new Witnesses were baptized, most of these professing to be of that great crowd.

In the spring of 1935 a large portion of the 20,000 people in attendance were told that they had been identified by God as the 'great crowd'. Of those 20,000 people the young adults in attendance that day who were a mere 20 years old are now approaching 90 years old in 2005, if they are even still alive. Those that were in attendance that day who were 35 years old and older are long dead and buried and the mere babies in their mother's arms who were not even capable of standing on their own two feet when asked who has the hope of living forever on the earth will be turning 70 in the year 2005.

For the new-born babies in attendance that day, the time clock is ticking away as we are fast approaching the end of the 70 year generation, the farthest limit possible to the generation of 1935. Where are the promises that Judge Rutherford made to that group of people? Where is the large portion of that group ready to enter the new earth alive, the only ones of humanity the can have sex, marriage and babies?

J.F. Rutherford did not tell the truth that day when he identified the group of people gathered in 1935 in Washington, DC as part of the Great Crowd with the hope of entering the new earth alive. He did not tell the truth to the crowd of people gathered at the convention that day when he claimed God as the source of the new light about the identity of the great crowd. He certainly did not tell the truth to those 20,000 people when he said that they could enter the new earth alive to marry, have sex and produce babies.

Those 20,000 people are almost all dead. They were given broken promises about being the special group that would have the mandate to populate the earth. Rutherford spoke as a representative of the Watchtower Society that day but he certainly didn't speak as a representative of the true God who cannot lie. By 2005 the Watchtower will have to face up to the fact that they have only broken promises to offer their followers as the generation of 1935, the promised generation of Watchtower survivors has been lied to.

Who are you going to believe for your eternal life? If you trust in the Watchtower to give you accurate light from God, you will die in your sins, never receiving the promises. Psalms 118:8 says "It is better to trust in YHWH than to put confidence in man." When you trust in an organization to give you life you have broken God's commandment not to have any other gods before him. We are not to trust in man's word to give us life, but in God alone. Pick up your Bible and start reading it without the Watchtower helps and see what God really has to say. Pray to YHWH to reveal truth to you through his word. Take your New World Translation and place other translations beside it and let God show you what his truth is not what the Watchtower says is truth. Follow the words of Jesus in the New Testament because he is the only spokesman for God. Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." If you are going to God through any organization, through any other way than Jesus alone, you will die with broken promises.

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:


http://www.uplook.org
http://www.voicesforchrist.org/order.html

Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you. And he went his way and proclaimed throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.

05-18-2009 10:19 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
BethelBoy
Member


Posts: 1,169
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Jan 2008
Status: Offline
Post: #41
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

This is known as replacement theology and as far as paul is concerned is a false teaching. Time to read Romans 10 and 11
God is using Gentiles receiving Salvation to make Israel ( actual Jews ) to jealous and to come to Christ also the purpose of the Great Tribulation is as written " The day of Jacobs trouble " not the day of the Body of Christs trouble, the body of Christ will mnot go through the Tribulation God will not smite His Son twice.


Romans 10
1 Dear friends, my greatest wish and my prayer to God is for the people of Israel to be saved. 2 I know they love God, but they don't understand 3 what makes people acceptable to him. So they refuse to trust God, and they try to be acceptable by obeying the Law. 4 But Christ makes the Law no longer necessary for those who become acceptable to God by faith.

17No one can have faith without hearing the message about Christ. 18But am I saying that the people of Israel did not hear? No, I am not! The Scriptures say,

"The message was told

everywhere on earth.

It was announced

all over the world."

19 Did the people of Israel understand or not? Moses answered this question when he told that the Lord had said,

"I will make Israel jealous
of people

who are a nation

of nobodies.

I will make them angry

at people

who don't understand

a thing
." ( Gentiles )

20Isaiah was fearless enough to tell that the Lord had said,

"I was found by people

who were not looking

for me.
( Gentiles )
I appeared to the ones

who were not asking

about me."

21And Isaiah said about the people of Israel,

"All day long the Lord

has reached out

to people who are stubborn

and refuse to obey."

( God will use the as a means of turning thses hard hearts back to Him and they look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him like a First Born Son Zech 12:10/Rev 1:7 )

Romans 11

God Has Not Rejected His People

1 Am I saying that God has turned his back on his people? Certainly not! I am one of the people of Israel, and I myself am a descendant of Abraham from the tribe of Benjamin.( I AM JEW is what Paul is saying ) 2 God did not turn his back on his chosen people. Don't you remember reading in the Scriptures how Elijah complained to God about the people of Israel? 3 He said, "Lord, they killed your prophets and destroyed your altars. I am the only one left, and now they want to kill me."
4 But the Lord told Elijah, "I still have seven thousand followers who have not worshiped Baal." 5 It is the same way now. God was kind to the people of Israel, and so a few of them are still his followers.( Sound like a little flock of Jews? ) 6 This happened because of God's undeserved kindness and not because of anything they have done. It could not have happened except for God's kindness.

7 This means that only a chosen few of the people of Israel found what all of them were searching for.]( Sound like a little flock of Jews? ) And the rest of them ( Jews ) were stubborn, 8 just as the Scriptures say,

"God made them so stupid

that their eyes are blind,

and their ears

are still deaf."

9Then David said,

"Turn their meals

into bait for a trap,

so that they will stumble

and be given

what they deserve.

10Blindfold their eyes!

Don't let them see.

Bend their backs

beneath a burden

that will never be lifted."



Gentiles Will Be Saved
11 Do I mean that the people of Israel fell, never to get up again? Certainly not! ( Certainly NOT )Their failure made it possible for the Gentiles to be saved, and this will make the people of Israel jealous. 12But if the rest of the world's people were helped so much by Israel's sin and loss, they will be helped even more by their full return. ( THEIR RETURN!!! )


( The conversation turns now to the Gentiles )
13 I am now speaking to you Gentiles, and as long as I am an apostle to you, I will take pride in my work. 14 I hope in this way to make some of my own people jealous enough to be saved. 15 When Israel rejected God, the rest of the people in the world were able to turn to him. So when God makes friends with Israel, it will be like bringing the dead back to life.

Oh what a day what a day that will be!!!!

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:



man hu Wrote:
They (we) are the spiritual Israelites: The cleansed twelve tribes of Israel in Revelation 7. (Dan and Ephraim, were considered responsible for idolatry, the setting up of the two golden calves, and thus they were removed. Ephraim's faithfull father, Joseph is added instead, so Joseph still gets the double portion, and Dan is replaced by the Levites who opposed this idolatry and were also faithfull in the two tribe kingdom at the temple.


http://www.uplook.org
http://www.voicesforchrist.org/order.html

Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you. And he went his way and proclaimed throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.

05-18-2009 10:58 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
man hu
Babe and any other piggy names


Posts: 2,498
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #42
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Lowlee Wrote:
Yeh, well the WT screwed up lots. :read: If I go by the bible by itself, then it is jew and gentile that is the one flock under one shepherd. :cheer: :thumbsup: And all this stuff about everyone not having the bread and wine is satanic in my mind. Somebody made a good post about this awhile ago.

:giverose: Sister Lee

Probably Iso, if not me. Accepting then rejecting the bread and wine, body and blood, is a satanic ritual, which is also masonic.

The horror is that this is the one time of the year that the witnesses try to get as many as possible into their halls to perform this act. What was it last year?
The count was 17 million I believe.

vicky


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
05-18-2009 11:46 AM
Find all posts by this user
Bangalore
Member


Posts: 6,131
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #43
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

An old thread about one flock and one shepherd.

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


"While producing people who were outwardly moral, they subverted the essential qualities of humility, compassion and mercy." - Raymond Franz
http://www.spiritualbrother.blogspot.com/
04-14-2011 10:07 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
COMankind
Member


Posts: 337
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Oct 2010
Status: Offline
Post: #44
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

Great find.

Didn't notice if this was highlighted or not...but I always found the NWT version of John 10:16 to be....unfortunate....

NWT “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

NIV "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

ESV "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd."

NKJV "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock [and] one shepherd.

It's interesting how the NWT adjusted it to read as if the flock merges to become both a flock and a shepherd at the same time.

Also...I remember seeing an old WT illustration of a shepherd managing this pen. A few sheep are inside, but a massive herd was outside (it was Franz's book I think) and this was presented as being one flock, albeit still in two classes or herds. It was so sunreal to see a shepherd actually keep them separated like that, as a few were protected, while so many were left to roam outside.

Curious if anyone has that image..


Bangalore Wrote:
An old thread about one flock and one shepherd.

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


philia, COMankind

"The tent of God is with mankind" - Rev 21:3

04-15-2011 12:23 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
BeginAgain
Not So New


Posts: 178
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Jun 2010
Status: Offline
Post: #45
RE: One Flock One Shepherd

COMankind ~

Wow, how astute of you to find this subtle misleading in the wording of the NWT's version! I love your insightful comments my brother. Thank you. Please, is there anything you could do with that scary avatar of yours, like get a new one? (smile)

In Christ,
BeginAgain


"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift; that's why they call it the present." Eleanor Roosevelt
04-26-2011 11:19 PM
Find all posts by this user

View a Printable Version
Send this Thread to a Friend
Subscribe to this Thread | Add Thread to Favorites

Forum Jump: