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The Great Tribulation
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Resolute
politicus incorrectissimus in extremis


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Post: #16
RE: The Great Tribulation

man hu Wrote:
Justin you have probably signed off here.
I have tried to explain to my WT family about the UN and they have ignored the facts. What I do not want to do is push the issue because some cannot bear it at this time.
Just like the wheat and the weeds, the WT indoctrination entwines itself into the roots of a persons love for Jehovah. If we rip out the WT, some may loose their faith in Jah, so insidiously entwined are the two.
I am not afraid to stand up for Christ, but I want all to be able to discern the truth and the false for themselves.


"Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’  He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’” -- Matthew 13:24-30

This parable distinguishes between the 'slaves of the householder' and the 'reapers'. Later on, Jesus identifies the reapers as angels (verse 39), who would be eminently qualified to distinguish between weeds and wheat. Jesus' concern is that no harm be done to the young wheat. This sort of thought is revealed in Jesus words to his apostles shortly before his arrest.

“I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present." -- John 16:12

It is enough that the slaves of the householder recognize that there ARE weeds in the field. There is a great temptation to uproot these BEFORE the harvest. And while the WT has proclaimed in word and song that we are living in the time of the final harvest, scripture would argue otherwise. (Revelation 6:9-11; 7:1-8; 14:15,16)

Love, Rez:siskiss:


When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one… – Edmund Burke
10-14-2009 05:39 PM
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rus virgil
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Post: #17
RE: The Great Tribulation

justin Wrote:
................................................

In looking at Revelation if you miss the first verse you miss it all. It reads - "This is a revelation of Jesus Christ" If you miss out on Jesus, or put him on the side while examining other things you are going to miss out period. Without Jesus there is no Revelation.

This was the mistake of the religious leaders in Jesus' day. They were students of the same prophetic books. They could make bold, authoritative statements like "Search and look, for no prophet has arisen out of Galilee." What did Jesus say about these ones and the mistake they made? He said - "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me".

These religious leaders knew the Bible, they knew the prophets, but they missed Jesus and they missed out. Jesus is the heart of prophecy. It is written, again in Revelation, "For the witness of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

This thread mentioned the "two witnesses" of Revelation. Please I invite you to look up other instances of witnesses mentioned in that same book. What is the witness they are giving and being persecuted for? They are not bearing witness and telling the truth about the NWO but rather about JESUS CHRIST! It is for telling the truth about Jesus that they are hated and killed - just as it has been from the beginning of our faith.

Now you don't have to study about this to learn the truth about the matter. You don't have to study conspiracies to know that the whole world is in the power of the wicked one. You can experience all of this, first hand, in your life, right now. How so?

Stand up and give a witness for Jesus!

Now I know some of you on this forum are still involved in some degree with the Jehovah's Witness religion. Some of you are still attending meetings and so forth. We all know that in order to remain a JW in the long run you have to make certain compromises. You know the times when another JW has spoken to you and maybe you didn't tell the whole truth or compromised your stand. You know the times when you were at the memorial and you passed the emblems by or perhaps partook in private so that others wouldn't know of your relationship with the Lord. You know the times when you shied away from speaking boldly about the hope you have to keep the peace, not to be disfellowshipped, or to protect your family relations.

Brothers and sisters, please, stand up and give a witness for Jesus!

..........................................................................


Hi Justin,

I thank you very much for speaking right on God's and Christ's part !

In Jesus days surely there were "wordly" events , or the changes of the "political scene" regarding roman empire or other forces.

BUT Jesus never had discussions with his followers about them !
and He never pointed to them as some part of fulfulment os some prophecies ! Never !

All Jesus did , was to teach God's will and comandments toward them , the literal offsprings of Abraham , to whom He was sent .

A true Christian worshiper of Jehovah/YHWH will obey His words:
"This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.
Listen to him!"

Listening to Him means to do as He said
"But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

"his kingdom" ? what has "his Kingdom" to do with the NWO , or other operations of the darkness ?

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world.
If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Dear brothers , more than two years ago I did a post entitled "the teaching of Christ" where I pointed to the importance given by Jehovah Himself to the teaching of Christ !
I could not write much (in that post ) because of my lack of english , but I thought some will give the due attention to that , and even will do they Biblical research based on that "teaching" -- but no sign untill now !

Our predecessors in faith from Russell onward did the same type of wrongness at their time like us now :
they have look to "wordly" events and observed that they are like , or resembles with some parts of God's prophecies -- and came to wrong conclusions , conclusions that were seen as "thruts" at their time and wich ones we are criticising today, because they obviously are not "truths" !
-- they took the "chronology" from adventists and even not being it based on the "teaching of Christ", they believed it !
and then , looking to the Gizah Pyramide they have observed that its measures resemble with the "chronology" and put them togheter and presented them as TRUTH
but today , we are criticisyng that because we see that is NOT TRUTH !

-- they have looked to the wordly scene and have seen that the Jewish nation wants to return "home" ,
so our brothers said "here is where the prophecies regarding "Israel" are fulfilled" !
and so some are spending a lot of time of their life wondering what will happen in the so called "holy land" ? -- never teached Jesus that !

-- they observed that the earthly nations begin to war one against other in autumn 1914 , and they believed that their chronology is true ,
and after that conclusioned that Christ has begun to reign in Heaven that time ! -- another teaching absolutely without basis in "Christ' teaching" !

-- again they believing that chronology they tought that the prophets will ressurect in 1925 and even bought a "home for prophets" --but Jesus never teached them such thing !

-- they observed how the nations prepare for the second war , and they said " the nations prepare for the Armaggedon" , of course , we are smiling now, when we look back to those days and their expectation .

and the list can go on and on , and all of that came to happen because they did not gave attention to God's command toward them, to "remain in the teaching of Christ"

TODAY , we are always ready to repeat their wrongness , but in an "modern way" or, "up-to-date way" !

Jesus Christ is already in His Father's Temple doing the Judgement !
He comes to fulfill the prophecies ! Matt 5:17,18
He separates the wheat from the weeds.
The wheat is "cleansed" just now ! HOW ?
The love for God manifested by the wheat is that which, together with God's Spirit , are making it to return to Jehovah , to obey Him, to know Him
and so to submit itself (the wheat) under Jesus Christ as the Head of the Congregation , as the King , as the God's Messenger to whom it must follow by "listening to him" !

This is the way "the wheat" will prove itself to be - wheat !
Hosea 6
1 "Come, let us return to the LORD.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.

2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.

3 Let us acknowledge the LORD;
let us press on to acknowledge him.
As surely as the sun rises,
he will appear;
he will come to us like the winter rains,
like the spring rains that water the earth."
6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

...............................................
Jeremiah 3
22. Return, O faithless sons, [says the Lord, and] I will heal your faithlessness. [And they answer] Behold, we come to You, for You are the Lord our God.

23. Truly in vain is the hope of salvation from the hills and from the tumult and noisy throng on the mountains; truly in and with the Lord our God rests the salvation of Israel.

24. [We have been ruined as a nation by our faithlessness and idolatry] for the shameful thing has consumed all for which our fathers toiled from our youth--their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.

25. Let us lie prostrate in our shame, and let our dishonor and confusion cover us; for we have sinned against the Lord our God, we and our fathers; from our youth even to this day we have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God.
A.B.

Here (above) we have "the way" prophetised by Jehovah for those who agree to clean themselves
those who are cleaning themselves are the WHEAT !

with deep respect for the King,
rus virgil

10-14-2009 07:17 PM
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Lowlee
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Post: #18
RE: The Great Tribulation

Hiya all :hibye: Watching tv news is like watching a conspiracy theory.:D:whistle: Sister LOWlee


"My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27
10-14-2009 07:21 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #19
RE: The Great Tribulation

justin Wrote:
I put out that question as some food for thought. Thank you for the replies.

I can say this with complete and total conviction and sincerity -- insight into the "NWO" cannot bring anyone to righteousness. Rather THIS means everlasting life those knowing the only true God and the one who he sent forth Jesus Christ. Know that the righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

Furthermore I firmly believe that insight into conspiracies cannot bring you through tribulation, great or small. It is the Power of God in conjuction with faith that gives us peace, perseverance, and endurance in times of trial.

Brothers and sisters -- Keep on the watch! Lift your head up! Look toward Heaven! Keep Jesus firmly in view! HE is our deliverance through tribulation, small and great!




Justin -- I totally agree. :clap:

Christians who have a strong "end-times" bias, tend to keep up with the mantra "keep on the watch", but in actual fact, all we are doing is keeping a tab on a fear-based, dark system that feeds an underlying fear that we have inside of us, all the while it appears that we "keep on the watch".

JW's and ex JW's tend to have this focus, because of the brainwashing we received during our time in the religion.

But, as Justin said -- no amount of knowing of the deception is going to get you through any tribulation.

It is faith in Jesus Christ, and Him alone that will see all our needs met.

Thanks, Justin! :drinking::drinking::drinking:


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


10-14-2009 07:45 PM
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observant
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Post: #20
RE: The Great Tribulation

Friends,

I just had a couple of thoughts as I was reading through your comments.

To whom do you belong? If your answer is Jesus, Do others know this? Have you told them you will follow no other but him alone? That you are going to follow him because you love him more than all other things?

It is not lack of love to say these things. It is love that makes us speak them!!!! Are you ashamed of your husband? Let it not be so! Stand up before men and say whom you love! That you are now at one with him, and they can be too. Jesus message was just the same. COME!!. We cannot control whether ones heart can hear. But the answer is not silence.

Love that is not expressed... Is not love at all. WE cannot control the hearts of others, we cannot sheild them, or save them or protect them. That is our Fathers privilage. He says follow your shepherd, he says come follow me. The rest is in his hands. TRUST HIM!!! Leave the ones behind in his care that do not hear, he promises us that he will work all things for the right hearted ones in the end. Do not listen to fear! Fear is the opposite of love and it will extinguish your flame. Fear will make you deaf, and cause you to stand still. Ask yourself, why do you not speak what Jesus has placed in your heart? If the reason is because you are 'afraid' something might happen... than fear has you in bondage.

YOU do as you are asked. Speak truth, Follow him wherever he goes, shower his love on all you meet and sing with joy when you suffer for his sake, He will never leave your side, and will never forsake you ... all they way home.


With much Love
Lynn


Consider the lilies, how they grow; they do not toil, they do not spin. And yet I say to you that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Luk 12:27
10-14-2009 09:46 PM
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freyd
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Post: #21
RE: The Great Tribulation

Susanna Wrote:
Why one may ask. Why cut short the GT to save the chosen ones ??
Aren't they going to die anyway ?

Take notice that Israel is no more in Gods favor, and has become a state thru the UN. that Jewish system was so destroyed that no Jew can trace back as to what tribe they came from, because all records were destroyed along with their Temple.

Yes the days back there had to be cut short because of the chosen ones. they are the co-rulers with Christ, or no Jews would be saved.
Now today the GT will be cut short again because of the chosen ones finishing up what Jesus and his disciples started in the first century,


Romans 11:11 NIV "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!....25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: :read:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.


Is 58:13,14 "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day....then you will find your joy in Yahweh...." bibletoday.com, yrm.org, beholdthebeast.com, thereligionofpeace.com, http://www.v-a.com, eliyah.com,messianic-torah-truth-seeker.org,
10-15-2009 01:32 PM
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Susanna
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Post: #22
RE: The Great Tribulation

Hi once more
All you brothers are doing what you should be doing and that is drawing close to Jesus . I admire the stand you have all taken, and I'm sure Jehovah is pleased.
I sincerely apologize I failed to take into consideration that many are just getting over the falsehood that they had already accepted as truth ,and your to be commended ,for the stand your taking for the word of God,
I do see many are not ready for what the scriptures are presenting for the end times.

Statement made
"his kingdom" ? what has "his Kingdom" to do with the NWO , or other operations of the darkness ?
>>>>
Every thing in the world that's what.!!
We are going to have two kingdoms in opposition to one another. Rev 12:7-9

7A war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels were fighting against the dragon and its angels. 8But the dragon lost the battle. It and its angels were forced out of their places in heaven 9and were thrown down to the earth. Yes, that old snake and his angels were thrown out of heaven! That snake, who fools everyone on earth, is known as the devil and Satan

The kingdom ( new order ) I call it new for the simple reason, no religion will be tolerated, the religion that will be accepted will be " a one for all."that will be set up by rules.
with Christ out of the picture. there will be a movement of interfaith where "all are one", some thing that we as Christians cannot get involved with.

This earthly kingdom is where heavy persecution will take place against all Christians, but most don't understand this, so there really is no sense in my adding more to what cant be seen.

But so not be in the dark this is where we will find ourselves , weather it be brothers or children of Christ. There's no escaping it.

John 17:15-21 (CEV) reads
15Father, I don't ask you to take my followers out of the world, but keep them safe from the evil one. 16They don't belong to this world, and neither do I. 17Your word is the truth. So let this truth make them completely yours. 18I am sending them into the world, just as you sent me. 19I have given myself completely for their sake, so that they may belong completely to the truth.

20I am not praying just for these followers. I am also praying for everyone else who will have faith because of what my followers will say about me. 21I want all of them to be one with each other, just as I am one with you and you are one with me. I also want them to be one with us. Then the people of this world will believe that you sent me.

>>>>>>

So what we have here is the counterfeit kingdom on earth making " all one " in opposition with those that are in and will be covered by the heavenly Kingdom covenant.

In time you will all see this

i am sure many already do/

love susanna/:grouphug:


Jehovah and one is a large army
10-15-2009 02:19 PM
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Susanna
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Post: #23
RE: The Great Tribulation

Dear Fryed

Sorry but I beg to differ/
Jesus said "no one comes to the Father except thru him " (JC)

As a nation the Jews have lost out, unless they accept the son. Now we do have Jews where they were the natural branches of the Olive tree that accepted Christ, but then at the middle of the week when all sacrifices ceased as mentioned in Daniel , Christ death ended the Mosaic Law .

Nevertheless a extention was held out exclusively to the Jews until the end of the week; 36CE
Paul is speaking here to the Roman cong which had replaced the looped of branches telling them not to boast that they had replaced branches that were meant for the Jews , that they were added not only to put the Jews to shame, but to also complete the arrangement meant for the Royal priest hood.

even up to today if that number isn't complete they still may be grafted in if they have faith an JC.
Reading that whole chapter 11 of Romans will show one , Paul is speaking about the Israel of God.

when speaking of the promises to the Patriarchs , these promises were full filled in the Israel of God . Gal 6:15-16 reads
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor un circumcision, but a new creature.

( which would be dying in the flesh and being recreated a spirit )

16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Israel of God is not ones ancestry , but rather ones faith.

The promise to Abraham is already being fulfilled in Christ.

Gal 3 15 (English Standard Version)

16Now( the promises were made(, to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one,( "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

Then in Gal 3:29 we read
And( if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring,( heirs according to promise.

( Christ was the promise held out )

But we do have those faithful men of old recorded in Heb 11 th chapter that died with the hope , of returning here on earth , along with all the righteous.

The Jews that have rejected Jehovah's son, have no idea who Jehovah really is.

They see Him as a God of War that always fought their battles, but we as true followers of Christ recognize Jehovah as a God of Love. 1John 4:8 who gave us His son that we may all have life,

Jehovah had planned on the Royal priesthood to come out of that Jewish nation, but they rejected the promises held out to the patriarchs.

Jehovah already kept his promise with the" spiritual Israel of God. "
Peter tells us this in 1Pet 2:9

But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, ,A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

This is how I see it

Love susanna


Jehovah and one is a large army
10-15-2009 05:46 PM
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freyd
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Post: #24
RE: The Great Tribulation

Suzsan Wrote:
Dear Fryed

Sorry but I beg to differ/
Jesus said "no one comes to the Father except thru him " (JC)

As a nation the Jews have lost out, unless they accept the son. Now we do have Jews where they were the natural branches of the Olive tree that accepted Christ, but then at the middle of the week when all sacrifices ceased as mentioned in Daniel , Christ death ended the Mosaic Law .


The Jews lost out on the opportunity to fill the 144,000 vacancies. They have never lost God's favor. See since 1878 the fig tree has been blooming.

Matthew 24:32
"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.":read:


Is 58:13,14 "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day....then you will find your joy in Yahweh...." bibletoday.com, yrm.org, beholdthebeast.com, thereligionofpeace.com, http://www.v-a.com, eliyah.com,messianic-torah-truth-seeker.org,
10-15-2009 06:48 PM
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Susanna
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Post: #25
RE: The Great Tribulation

A Lesson from a Fig Tree

Sorry but the verses before this parable deal with the last days.
These are cross references from Matt 24:32

Mark 13:28-32

28 “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. 29 In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that his return is very near, right at the door. 30 I tell you the truth, this generation[ will not pass from the scene before all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.

32 “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

>>>>>>>>>>


A Lesson from a Fig Tree
(Luke 21:29-31 (CEV)
29 Then Jesus told them a story:
When you see a fig tree or any other tree 30putting out leaves, you know that summer will soon come. 31So, when you see these things happening, you know that God's kingdom will soon be here.


Jehovah and one is a large army
10-15-2009 08:10 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #26
RE: The Great Tribulation

Hi Susanna

Susanna Wrote:
Dear Interp, I could just cry
I spent a hour on your question, and lost it before it was posted.
Probably was to long :)


Don't you just hate it when you lose posts like that? :rant:
I always highlight the text and then copy it (Ctrl + C) to the clipboard before posting, just in case.

Quote:
The Jewish system was destroyed in the year 70 CE, never to become a nation again. Jehovah's throne and Spirit left that stoneTemple and now rests in the spiritual Temple of God with Christ Jesus as the Head in that Temple.


I agree with you... but don't you get the impression, from reading Revelation 11, that this is also what that chapter is about?

The chapter begins with part of the Temple being trampled by the nations, and ends with the Temple being unveiled in heaven. Surely this could only happen once in history... when the earthly Temple was destroyed (in 70AD), replacing it with the one in heaven.

Thank you for explaining why you believe in two fulfillments. I certainly understand that this system needs to understand somehow. My thinking is, however, that Jesus was only talking about the Jewish system because he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In my humble opinion, the present system will not end with a rehash of the same prophecies, but with unique events leading up to the war of Armageddon, in which all the nations will be gathered.

Jesus said:

"So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Mathew 24:33,34)

It is clear from the context that Jesus is talking about his wicked generation - and indeed, all these things did occur within about 40 years of his words:

Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies, false prophets arose, they saw signs in the sky indicating their imminent destruction, and then Jesus came against them in the clouds, while the body of Christians were collected together out of that tribulation.

I understand the desire to apply these words to today, but it takes some major theological wrangling to do so... which the WTS are good at. Remember, they have Mathew 24 as starting to be fulfilled in 1914... up until recently they had Jesus separating the sheep and the goats right NOW (which if they carefully read Revelation, they would see happens in front of the great white throne of Rev 20:11-15 and not before), and they have changed their minds several times on the "modern day" identity of Jerusalem, the disgusting thing, etc.

As to the NWO, I think the best Satan gets is to gather the kings of the entire earth (Rev 16:14), which I DO think is happening right now. But there will be nations right up until Armageddon, because the "cities of the nations" (plural) fall.


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
10-16-2009 05:55 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #27
RE: The Great Tribulation

Hi Gogh

Thanks for quoting Mathew 24:29. I presume you're quoting it as evidence it hasn't all been fulfilled yet?

However, if we believe in a "dual" fulfillment, then you would have to acknowledge that it WAS fulfilled at least in the 1st century, based on vs 34.

Either way, let me explain how the latter part of Mathew 24 was fulfilled completely in the 1st century:

gogh Wrote:
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


There are plenty of examples in the OT where sun, moon darkening represented the fall of cities, kingdoms and nations. It is a Jewish expression, or "idiom". For example, see Isaiah 13:10, of which the chapter commences as "The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw." I can pull out many other references to other nations if you're interested.

In this instance, it is the fall of Jerusalem that is being foreshadowed.

Quote:
and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


I understand how this bit trips up many Christians. Think of it like this: Christ's ministry was, as he said, to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. They rejected him, their King.

He promised before the High Priest and the Sanhedrin that THEY would see him "coming on the clouds of heaven". (Mat 26:64)

Less than 40 years later, he did come... against Jerusalem, in clouds. Once again, "coming on the clouds of heaven" is an expression. We take it literally, but there are many examples in the OT of Jehovah coming on the clouds against cities. For example, Isaiah 19:1:

"An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them."

So coming on the clouds was an expression of judgment against a place.

This is why the tribes of the "ge" (which can be translated "earth" OR "land") will mourn. It is the tribes of the land of Israel that are mourning here!

Please also compare Zechariah 12:10, which is quoted by the gospel writers about Jesus being pierced, and by John in Revelation... notice that right after they look to the one whom they pierced, they... the inhabitants of Jerusalem... mourn. It is the tribes of the land (of Israel) who are mourning.

As for the specific "sign" beforehand, this could have been any one of the signs that Josephus wrote about, including the star shaped like a sword, and the sighting of chariots skipping about in the clouds... shortly before Jerusalem's fall.

Quote:
And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


We assume this means they are gathered in one place, but that doesn't necessarily follow. I would suggest the Christians were gathered and sealed as a people at this time. Before that, there were Christians and Jews in Jerusalem, but Christians (and anyone else who heeded Christ's advice) fled Jerusalem.

This passage also corresponds with Revelation 7, where two groups of Christians are sealed during the time the four winds are held back, to come out of "the great tribulation". I'm pretty sure those 1st century Christians knew which great tribulation they needed to come out of... which is why they fled to Pella.

Quote:
Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;
even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


Please note that Jesus said, "this generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished".

If Jesus' words had ANY fulfillment at all in the 1st century, then ALL of his words up until this point must have also been fulfilled. "All" does not allow a partial fulfillment.

I am saying, if we stop looking at this passage through 21st century eyes, and hear it through 1st century Jewish / Christian eyes, then the things Jesus spoke definitely did ALL happen within that wicked generation which he condemned.

Quote:
But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.


Incidentally, this gives evidence that there is a lot of overlap between this account, and Revelation. Jesus did not know "the day and hour"... but in Revelation, he unseals the seven seals, which reveal the DETAILS. Rev 8 and 9 are the DETAILS of the "great tribulation", which Rev 7 as the pause beforehand to allow Christians to escape it, and Rev 6 being the build up to it - the former parts of Mathew 24, before the disgusting thing.

Quote:
And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man...."


Since the Flood was a global event, I understand how many take these words to imply that Jesus is talking about another global event.

However, compare this with Luke 17:26-30 and you will see he adds the account about Lot, where just Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.

Jesus is not emphasizing the size of the destruction, but the lack of attention paid by most.

Furthermore, compare Mathew 24 to Luke 21 and it is evident he is talking about Jerusalem and the Jews, who would be taken captive into the nations... which I guess is why it gets quoted far less. Luke makes the Jewish link very plain.

If you would like clarification on anything, let me know.

I understand the desire to make Jesus' words relevant to us... and indeed they are... but not because they are going to be fulfilled AGAIN, but because they WERE fulfilled precisely.

This gives me great hope that the rest of scripture which has not yet been fulfilled... such as the latter part of Revelation (i.e. chapters 16-21) will happen.

Armageddon will happen, Babylon will fall, the Word will be unveiled from heaven, Satan will be bound for 1,000 years and all will stand before the throne of God and the Lamb.

But I don't think it will be a rehash of the 1st century fall of Jerusalem. Why would God do that, when He has already revealed the above things He has yet to do?


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10-16-2009 06:37 PM
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rus virgil
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Post: #28
RE: The Great Tribulation

Susanna Wrote:
Hi once more
...................................................................
I do see many are not ready for what the scriptures are presenting for the end times.

Statement made
"his kingdom" ? what has "his Kingdom" to do with the NWO , or other operations of the darkness ?
>>>>
Every thing in the world that's what.!!
We are going to have two kingdoms in opposition to one another. Rev 12:7-9
.......................................................................
love susanna/:grouphug:


Dear Susanna,
I understand the above your answer sounds also for me , as an answer.
While I want not to be disrespectfull , I want to speak right on God's side according with the knowledge God gave to me : it is my duty before Him !

a part of the answer I want to tell you here is found on this post , so please see it
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topi...ml#msg3134

You quoted above from Revelation 12 , and then explained a little...
I have to testify that also miself believed these things as you said , as long as I was Jw.
(and also I liked so much the explanation of Gog from Magog who had to invade God's country, and I was expecting it to take place ! )

But when getting out from among them, and letting myself to be teached by Christ the understanding have been changed !

Except the fact that the world have allways hated the Christ followers, and also today are doing that ,
the Bible prophecies have their "spiritual fulfillment" within God's people on earth , during the "latter days" .

The "world" (which is under Satan's dominion) never was prefigurated in Bible as part of "heavens"

but according to prophecies , during of "that day" of judgement , there are "two" kinds of "heavens" presents on earth :-- the "old heavens", --and the "new heavens"
while the "old heavens" are shakened (Hebrews 12:25-29) by that One who speaks from Heaven , the "new heavens" are being made by the Same One who came to fulfill the prophecies (and to restore everithing) !

So, yes, today we are living that time when the components of the "old heavens"-to be burned, are battle-ing against those components who are becoming the "new heavens" , which ones are following the Lamb !

So, our sight, trained to distinguish God's things which are "spiritual", will see these events taking place among those who came out from the world(Egypt) with the declared purpose to serve Jehovah ...
among of whom, a certain number of persons have "exalted themselves" as gods in the Temple , and so they have becomed the "old heavens" in God's eyes ,
and these ones didn't like the presence of the "Son of man" , His presence in "those least his brothers" , and they fight against of these ones (who are faithfully following the Lamb) : -- so, here it is the "war in heaven" !

regarding the "world" , meaning here all people oposing God , even being them more or less organised, they are seen as "one" :"the world" or "the sea" in Revelation .

NOW , regarding the "tribulation" , in order to understand this event which comes over "God's saints" , you (and everybody) have to read the Song of Moses !
there is the key to understand what "the (great) tribulation" is !

with all due respect for my brothers,
and with great respect for the King,
rus v.

10-16-2009 07:08 PM
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Susanna
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Post: #29
RE: The Great Tribulation

Hi all before I get into your posts,
I thought the best thing to do is show the background that led up to the conversation in Matt the 24th Chapter.

What is taking place here is Jesus is Judging the Pharisees .They are on judgement right in front of the crowds and Jesus pulls no punches.
I selected a Bible that is down to earth and has the cross references , its all put here for you to read and search, ( if you care to ), this way Matt 24 will be easier to understand.

Matthew 23 (CEV)
Jesus Condemns the Pharisees and the Teachers of the Law of Moses
(Mark 12.38-40; Luke 11.37-52; 20.45-47)

1Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses. 3So obey everything they teach you, but don't do as they do. After all, they say one thing and do something else.

4They pile heavy burdens on people's shoulders and won't lift a finger to help. 5Everything they do is just to show off in front of others. They even make a big show of wearing Scripture verses on their foreheads and arms, and they wear big tassels [a] for everyone to see. 6They love the best seats at banquets and the front seats in the meeting places. 7And when they are in the market, they like to have people greet them as their teachers. 8But none of you should be called a teacher. You have only one teacher, and all of you are like brothers and sisters. 9Don't call anyone on earth your father. All of you have the same Father in heaven. 10None of you should be called the leader. The Messiah is your only leader. 11Whoever is the greatest should be the servant of the others. 12If you put yourself above others, you will be put down. But if you humble yourself, you will be honored.

13-14You Pharisees and teachers of the Law of Moses are in for trouble! You're nothing but show-offs. You lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. You won't go in yourselves, and you keep others from going in. [b] 15You Pharisees and teachers of the Law of Moses are in for trouble! You're nothing but show-offs. You travel over land and sea to win one follower. And when you have done so, you make that person twice as fit for hell as you are.

16You are in for trouble! You are supposed to lead others, but you are blind. You teach that it doesn't matter if a person swears by the temple. But you say that it does matter if someone swears by the gold in the temple. 17You blind fools! Which is greater, the gold or the temple that makes the gold sacred?

18You also teach that it doesn't matter if a person swears by the altar. But you say that it does matter if someone swears by the gift on the altar. 19Are you blind? Which is more important, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Anyone who swears by the altar also swears by everything on it. 21And anyone who swears by the temple also swears by God, who lives there. 22To swear by heaven is the same as swearing by God's throne and by the one who sits on that throne.

23You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you're in for trouble! You give God a tenth of the spices from your garden, such as mint, dill, and cumin. Yet you neglect the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the important things you should have done, though you should not have left the others undone either. 24You blind leaders! You strain out a small fly but swallow a camel.

25You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you're in for trouble! You wash the outside of your cups and dishes, while inside there is nothing but greed and selfishness. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of a cup, and then the outside will also be clean.

27You Pharisees and teachers are in for trouble! You're nothing but show-offs. You're like tombs that have been whitewashed. [c] On the outside they are beautiful, but inside they are full of bones and filth. 28That's what you are like. Outside you look good, but inside you are evil and only pretend to be good. 29You Pharisees and teachers are nothing but show-offs, and you're in for trouble! You build monuments for the prophets and decorate the tombs of good people. 30And you claim that you would not have taken part with your ancestors in killing the prophets. 31But you prove that you really are the relatives of the ones who killed the prophets. 32So keep on doing everything they did. 33You are nothing but snakes and the children of snakes! How can you escape going to hell?

34I will send prophets and wise people and experts in the Law of Moses to you. But you will kill them or nail them to a cross or beat them in your meeting places or chase them from town to town. 35That's why you will be held guilty for the murder of every good person, beginning with the good man Abel. This also includes Barachiah's son Zechariah, [d] the man you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I can promise that you people living today will be punished for all these things!

Jesus Loves Jerusalem
(Luke 13.34,35)
37Jerusalem, Jerusalem! Your people have killed the prophets and have stoned the messengers who were sent to you. I have often wanted to gather your people, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. But you wouldn't let me. 38And now your temple will be deserted. 39You won't see me again until you say,
"Blessed is the one who comes

in the name of the Lord."


Footnotes:
Matthew 23:5 wearing Scripture verses on their foreheads and arms. . . tassels: As a sign of their love for the Lord and his teachings, the Jewish people had started wearing Scripture verses in small leather boxes. But the Pharisees tried to show off by making the boxes bigger than necessary. The Jewish people were also taught to wear tassels on the four corners of their robes to show their love for God.

Matthew 23:13 from going in: Some manuscripts add, "You Pharisees and teachers are in for trouble! And you're nothing but show-offs! You cheat widows out of their homes and then pray long prayers just to show off. So you will be punished most of all."

Matthew 23:27 whitewashed: Tombs were whitewashed to keep anyone from accidentally touching them. A person who touched a dead body or a tomb was considered unclean and could not worship with the rest of the Jewish people.

Matthew 23:35 Zechariah: Genesis is the first book in the Jewish Scriptures, and it tells that Abel was the first person to be murdered. Second Chronicles is the last book in the Jewish Scriptures, and the last murder that it tells about is that of Zechariah.


Jehovah and one is a large army
10-17-2009 07:51 AM
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Interpretum
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Post: #30
RE: The Great Tribulation

Hi Susanna

Precisely.

All of Mathew 24 should be placed in its context, which is about Jerusalem - the physical city.

In front of the High Priest and Jewish Sanhedrin, Jesus said the following words which condemned him to death:

"You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Mat 26:64)

Notice he said, "from now on". We know from several scriptures that Jesus did not need to wait 2,000 years to be seated at the right hand of Power... he died, was resurrected, and went to heaven to just about immediately sit at the right hand of God.

Similarly, he came "on the clouds of heaven" against Jerusalem, less than 40 years later... so that both the Sanhedrin who sentenced him to death, and the wicked generation who rejected their king, would face his wrath.

So it was all definitely fulfiilled upon Jerusalem and the Jews in the 1st century.

However, in order to create a dual application, one needs to interpret the dual applications of...

- the disgusting thing causing desolation (Mat 24:15, already interpreted to us by Luke 21 as "Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies")

- Jerusalem. (The WTS previously held this to be Christians, now presently take this to be Christendom.)

- Judea. (Who are "those in Judea" now?)

- "the mountains". We are told to flee there. Which mountains. Where? Is the trumpet sounding an indistinct call here?

- "Wintertime... nor sabbath day". We are told to pray about it not being either. Make sure you have the right re-interpretation here! Your life depends upon it, as Jesus makes plain.

- "great tribulation". (But doesn't Luke tell us it will be "great necessity upon the LAND and wrath on THIS PEOPLE"?)

- "this generation". Is it the 40 year, 70 year, 80 year or "anyone who discerns it" generation... starting when?

- "led captive into all the nations."

- "appointed times of the nations".

Now, that is a lot of re-interpreting to do, and it is clear from (a) the history of Bible Students, (b) the history of Jehovah's Witnesses and © this forum... that there are many different combinations of ways of interpreting all these things.

(For example, just look at "appointed times of the nations": JWs insist this is from 607 to 1914, which is just one example of how we can get hopelessly lost once we ignore the plain meanings of Jesus' words. The appointed times only commence ONCE Jerusalem gets trampled [70AD], which still future in Jesus' day!)

Did Jesus mean to be so confusing?

Or did he essentially interpret it ALL to us... either by us cross referencing Mathew with Luke (as with the disgusting thing = Jerusalem surrounded by armies)...

or with comparing it to Revelation (where the "holy city" is trampled for 42 months... telling us the length of time of the appointed times.)

If we try to substitute "New Jerusalem" into the prophecies, then we also run into problems, because New Jerusalem is heavenly. Paul refers to it as "the Jerusalem above", and in Revelation it only comes down out of heaven after Satan has been abyssed. (The woman in Rev 12 is not New Jerusalem, but symbolizes Israel... because she wears a crown of 12 stars, representing the 12 tribes).

So it is impossible for the nations to trample or do anything to New Jerusalem, because it is of heaven.

This is, I guess, partly why JWs don't believe the "dual" of Jerusalem in Mathew 24 is heavenly Jerusalem anymore. Also, they argue, because she is destroyed for apostacy, but how could New Jerusalem be apostate? That's why they now believe Jerusalem is Christendom.

However, we avoid ALL of this fanciful speculation if we accept that Mathew 24 (and Luke 21) was a prophecy about Jerusalem and Judea... as it says it is.

There is no need for a second fulfillment, any more than there is a need for a second fulfillment of the fall of Ninevah.

Sure, prophecy re-uses themes at times, as in Babylon the Great... but I'm sure 1st century Christians understood why the symbolism was used... ancient Babylon was a great and proud city. It had destroyed the 1st temple of God, and had exiled the Jews.

A second "Babylon" existed in their day... a great and proud city, that ALSO destroyed God's temple, and sent the Jews into captivity.

Not only that, but it sat on 7 hills, and had just recently shed masses of Christian blood at the hands of the tyrant emperor Nero, who had them burned alive in his Vatican Gardens.

It really isn't a stretch of 1st century imagination (only more difficult for us) for the Christians to see Rome as another Babylon, with her line of emperors forming the ultimate blasphemy, being deified into gods for the people to worship.

Anyway, I am getting off the point.

If there is a second application: who is to flee, and to where, and when?

Let's hope the JW current interpretation is correct, since they have changed their minds so often. Jerusalem is now Christendom, fleeing is to some separate state out of the world (which Christians should be doing anyway), and the disgusting thing is going to be something to do with the UN... apparently.

Sounds to me like the trumpet is making a hugely indistinct call, with this "dual" application... whereas Jesus was pretty specific for the first (and I would argue, the REAL) application - anyone in Judea, get out when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies!


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10-17-2009 01:48 PM
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