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The Great Tribulation
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Susanna
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Post: #31
RE: The Great Tribulation

Matthew 24
Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple
1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
>>>
This remark disturbed the disciples , that their beautiful temple made of stones would be distroyed . When they got on top of the mountain over looking the temple and its buildings, they brought up what he said and asked Jesus about his remark
The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
>>>>>
Take notice here they are asking a three fold question.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[b] and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another

Matt 24 : deals with two fulfillment all because of the chosen ones. In both cases the days had to be cut short.

We are not speaking of the Jews as a nation as being the chosen ones we are speaking of the replacement of that Nation which is Spiritual Israel, or as is in the sciptures The Isreal of God made up of His adopted sons.
, the co-rulers with Christ which stretches down into our present day.
Paul wrote fourteen books in the Bible and explains this very well.
Scripture have replaced the literal stones of that ancient Temple with
the chosen so now we have the " Temple of God "made up of " living stones"

The book of Revelation only deals with the" Israel of God," and it starts with the Temple inspection . All of Christ co-worker are spiritual Jews regardless of what nation they came from.
Christ inspection of the Temple of God ,we find Jesus chastising those who made claim to being a spiritual Jew that were not.Rev 2:9
(NCV
9 I know your troubles and that you are poor, but really you are rich! I know the bad things some people say about you. They say they are Jews, but they are not true Jews. They are a synagogue that belongs to Satan.

Rev 3:9

9Now you will see what I will do with those people who belong to Satan's group. They claim to be Jews, but they are liars. I will make them come and kneel down at your feet. Then they will know that I love you.

>>>>>>

Being that this revelation was given to John for his brother in the end times ,yes the two fold question the disciples asked Jesus regarding the destruction of the Temple, dealt with that generation and all the ways to ours because of the chosen ones.

So again then was the destruction of the Jewish system of things, now that the( gentiles) chosen ones are scattered all thru the nations this will call for the destruction of Satan's system. then the number will be complete, then the Kingdom of Christ rule will start its reign right after the the first resurrection takes place .1 Thess 4:15-17 ( starting with Armageddon )

I feel this may clear up on any thoughts of God dealing with the literal Israel as a Nation they lost out in becoming a Royal Prieshood, the door is still open for individual Jews , on the condition they accept Christ as their Savior and son of God.

', Paul here explains it very well to the new ones becoming Christ Bride and

co- rulers. Gal 4:21-31


Hagar and Sarah
21Some of you would like to be under the rule of the Law of Moses. But do you know what the Law says? 22In the Scriptures we learn that Abraham had two sons. The mother of one of them was a slave, while the mother of the other one had always been free. 23The son of the slave woman was born in the usual way. But the son of the free woman was born because of God's promise.
24All of this has another meaning as well. Each of the two women stands for one of the agreements God made with his people. Hagar, the slave woman, stands for the agreement that was made at Mount Sinai. Everyone born into her family is a slave. 25Hagar also stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia [a] and for the present city of Jerusalem. She [b] and her children are slaves. 26But our mother is the city of Jerusalem in heaven above, and she isn't a slave. 27The Scriptures say about her,

"You have never had children,

but now you can be glad.

You have never given birth,

but now you can shout.

Once you had no children,

but now you will have

more children

than a woman

who has been married

for a long time."

28My friends, you were born because of this promise, just as Isaac was. 29But the child who was born in the natural way made trouble for the child who was born because of the Spirit. The same thing is happening today. 30The Scriptures say, "Get rid of the slave woman and her son! He won't be given anything. The son of the free woman will receive everything." 31My friends, we are children of the free woman and not of the slave.


Jehovah and one is a large army
10-17-2009 01:51 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #32
RE: The Great Tribulation

Hi Susanna

I think we may have been posting at similar times. I posted something to you just before and wanted to point that out in case you missed it.

If you don't mind, I'd like to point out several assumptions you are making, which we need to seriously ask if they are true or not.

Assumption #1: In Mathew 24, the disciples are asking Jesus a three fold question.

I agree there are three parts to the question, but I would suggest that by looking at Mark's version and Luke's version, it becomes plain that they were referring to the Jewish age, which the Temple's existence symbolized:

"Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?" (Mark 13)

"Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?" (Luke 21)

All three accounts have them asking this question shortly after Jesus' comment about the Temple being thrown down.

So "all these things" was a question about the Temple, and the end of the Jewish age.

Assumption #2: "Being that this revelation was given to John for his brother in the end times."

You are not the only one to believe that. But do you really believe Jesus inspired the Revelation for us, and essentially ignored Christians for the last 2,000 years?

I would say there is plenty of evidence to suggest Revelation was given first and foremost for 1st century Christians...

(a) seven specific congregations in Asia are addressed by name, with specific counsel... and John is told to write what he sees in a scroll and send it to those specific congregations.

(b) Jesus says, "Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near". It was written in the 1st century, and Jesus said the time was NEAR... and so people should observe the words. How would those 1st century Christians do so if it was really for those 2,000 years from their date?

© John is told, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near". If the words were really meant for a people 2,000 years later, shouldn't John have been told to seal it up, instead of NOT sealing it? (Compare Daniel 12, where Daniel is told to seal up the words).

I would say the evidence points to the words being especially relevant for those 1st century Christians, which is why John was told to send it to 7 congregations in Asia, and NOT to seal it up, but to have readers OBSERVE it... in complete contrast to Daniel, who was told essentially not to worry about his final prophecy, and to seal it up.

Also, I'd like to ask you about this, which you present as proof of two fulfilments:

Quote:
Matt 24 : deals with two fulfillment all because of the chosen ones. In both cases the days had to be cut short.


I don't quite get what you're saying here.

If you consider the so-called first fulfillment, the "chosen ones" must have been the Jews, because the Christians had already fled from the great tribulation, by leaving Judea. So there was no need to cut it short for the sake of Christians. They were relatively safe.

However, the Jews were in real danger of becoming extinct. Not only were they being starved to death in Jerusalem, but across many parts of the empire, they were being killed simply for being Jews.

Had not this period been "cut short", it is very likely there would have been no Jews left alive on the face of the earth!

However, you are really using circular reasoning for your second fulfillment. Because you see Revelation applying to OUR "end times", and Rev 7 talks about 144,000 "anointed" which must be "chosen", there must be a second application.

However, if Assumption #2 isn't true, and Revelation was actually written primarily for the benefit of 1st century Christians, then Revelation 7 paints things in a very different light.

In fact, Revelation 7 is in COMPLETE harmony with both Jesus, and Paul's arguments.

Paul argues that scripture shows only a REMNANT of Jews would survive their coming inspection (see Romans 9:22-29).

This REMNANT is symbolically shown by the 144,000 in Revelation 7. These come out of the tribes of Israel, in contrast to the "great crowd" which come out of the Gentiles - peoples, crowds, nations and tongues.

So both Jesus, Paul and Revelation are talking about essentially the same thing - a remnant of Jews coming out of a national disaster, which Jesus and Revelation refer to as the "great tribulation".

Paul says something similar in Romans 9:22-29 and quotes various OT passages to demonstrate that only a remnant of Jews would survive.

Incidentally, this is NOT the same "remnant" as taught by JWs, who confuse the issues by trying to attach the 144,000 number to themselves.

The new spiritual Israel is first and foremost founded upon this remnant of PHYSICAL JEWS, with Gentiles GRAFTED IN... as Paul makes plain in Romans 11:17-24.

This is what Revelation 7 is telling us. The 144,000 are physical Jews, chosen and sealed out of that nation... the "great crowd" are non Jews, but they stand before God's throne. (Collectively, they make up the Israel of God.)

This is also what Paul is telling us, when he talks about the remnant - he uses OT passages to show that it is a remnant of JEWS who would be saved.

Finally, Jesus is talking about sparing the Jews from COMPLETE destruction. It is not Christians who needed the tribulation to be cut short, because they had already fled it. It was the Jews who would have been wiped out, had it not been cut short.


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10-17-2009 02:40 PM
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Susanna
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Post: #33
RE: The Great Tribulation

Dear Inter
Our post must have passed each other, as I just seen you post posted a few minutes before mine.

Now for beginners , the scriptures will answer your questions if you will allow them.
I will get back to your post later as I am not a typists ( believe it or not one finger )
But this is one thing I must bring up now'

You wrote
If we try to substitute "New Jerusalem" into the prophecies, then we also run into problems, because New Jerusalem is heavenly. Paul refers to it as "the Jerusalem above", and in Revelation it only comes down out of heaven after Satan has been abyssed. (The woman in Rev 12 is not New Jerusalem, but symbolizes Israel... because she wears a crown of 12 stars, representing the 12 tribes).
>>>>>>>>
Are you a Bible Student ?
Substitute you say !!! dear brother if it weren't for Jesus Christ there would be no Israel of God. The nation of Isreal refused the invitation of being a Royal priesthood , rejected the son of God and now you believe the woman represents Israel . Why would you believe such a thing !!!

That woman in Revelation 12 symbolizes Gods Woman which is Jehovah's heavenly UNIVERSAL organization.
Chapter 12 is not even into yet.
The WT and BS used all of Revelation up already, that's were the confusion comes in, we were given the truth as truth that hasn't even taken place until now ,
the light is now shinning. The apostasy has been uncovered, the weeds that got into Gods Temple have been shown s the man of lawlessness or the Lie/

This is the woman that gives birth to the Messianic Kingdom. This is why war breaks out in Heaven,
This is why Satan is cast out of the heavens, This is why
Satan wages war with the remaining ones of the woman's seed.
The secondary seed is still alive here on earth so his attack will be on the Two witnesses during the earthly reign of the eighth king .Rev 12:17 Gal 3:29

Gen 3:15 is the theme of Gods Kingdom all thru scripture.
Jesus was the seed that Jehovah was speaking about.. The whole Kingdom theme is based on the Heavenly.
No way would Genesis be speaking of Jesus and Jahs adopted sons
belonging to the slave girl.

Keep in mind when Bro Russell wrote he thought that every thing was at the doors. World War One allowed for chronology to play a big part in Satans
deception . Paul warned His brothers in our time
The Man of Lawlessness 2Thess 2 1-4
1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers ] 2not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. 5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

Paul is speaking to the heavenly chosen ones in our day/
The WT and the BS are Not listening.


Jehovah and one is a large army
10-17-2009 02:49 PM
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BethelBoy
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Post: #34
RE: The Great Tribulation

What does Paul say about Israel Romans 11

( The whole point of the Tribulation period is to turn the actual Jewish people back to God and that they might see their Messiah finally )

Romans 11


Israel’s Rejection Not Total


1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:


“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

9 And David says:


“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

Israel’s Rejection Not Final

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion, ( When Christ returns Actual Israel will look upon Him whom they pierced their Messiah )
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.


http://www.uplook.org
http://www.voicesforchrist.org/order.html

Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you. And he went his way and proclaimed throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.

10-17-2009 09:13 PM
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BethelBoy
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Post: #35
RE: The Great Tribulation

The Error of replacement Theology

What Is Replacement Theology?

Replacement Theology was introduced to the Church shortly after Gentile leadership took over from Jewish leadership. What are its premises?

Israel (the Jewish people and the land) has been replaced by the Christian Church in the purposes of God, or, more precisely, the Church is the historic continuation of Israel to the exclusion of the former.


The Jewish people are now no longer a "chosen people." In fact, they are no different from any other group, such as the English, Spanish, or Africans.


Apart from repentance, the new birth, and incorporation into the Church, the Jewish people have no future, no hope, and no calling in the plan of God. The same is true for every other nation and group.


Since Pentecost of Acts 2, the term "Israel," as found in the Bible, now refers to the Church.


The promises, covenants and blessings ascribed to Israel in the Bible have been taken away from the Jews and given to the Church, which has superseded them. However, the Jews are subject to the curses found in the Bible, as a result of their rejection of Christ.
How Do Replacement Theologians Argue Their Case? They Say:

To be a son of Abraham is to have faith in Jesus Christ. For them, Galatians 3:29 shows that sonship to Abraham is seen only in spiritual, not national terms: "And if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Rebuttal: While this is a wonderful inclusionary promise for Gentiles, this verse does not exclude the Jewish people from their original covenant, promise and blessing as the natural seed of Abraham. This verse simply joins us Gentile Christians to what God had already started with Israel.

The promise of the land of Canaan to Abraham was only a "starter." The real Promised Land is the whole world. They use Romans 4:13 to claim it will be the Church that inherits the world, not Israel. "For the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."
Rebuttal: Where does this verse exclude Abraham and His natural progeny, the Jews? It simply says that through the law, they would not inherit the world, but this would be acquired through faith. This is also true of the Church.

The nation of Israel was only the seed of the future Church, which would arise and incorporate people of all nations (Mal. 1:11): "For from the rising of the sun, even unto the going down of the same, My Name shall be great among the nations, and in every place, incense shall be offered to My Name, and a pure offering for My Name shall be great among the nations, says the Lord of Hosts."
Rebuttal: This is great, and shows that the Jewish people and Israel fulfilled one of their callings to be "a light to the nations," so that God's Word has gone around the world. It does not suggest God's dealing with Israel was negated because His Name spread around the world.

Jesus taught that the Jews would lose their spiritual privileges, and be replaced by another people (Matt. 21:43): "Therefore I am saying to you, 'The kingdom of God will be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it.'"
Rebuttal: In this passage, Jesus was talking about the priests and Pharisees, who failed as leaders of the people. This passage is not talking about the Jewish people or nation of Israel. See Teaching Letter #770008, "Did God Break His Covenant With the Jews?"

A true Jew is anyone born of the Spirit, whether he is racially Gentile or Jewish (Rom. 2:28-29): "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Rebuttal: This argument does not support the notion that the Church replaced Israel. Rather, it simply reinforces what had been said throughout the Hebrew Scriptures [the Old Testament], and it certainly qualifies the spiritual qualifications for Jews or anyone who professes to be a follower of the God of Israel.

Paul shows that the Church is really the same "olive tree" as was Israel, and the Church is now the tree. Therefore, to distinguish between Israel and the Church is, strictly speaking, false. Indeed, people of Jewish origin need to be grafted back into the Church (Rom 11:17-23).
Rebuttal: This claim is the most outrageous because this passage clearly shows that we Gentiles are the "wild olive branches," who get our life from being grafted into the olive tree. The tree represents the covenants, promises and hopes of Israel (Eph. 2:12), rooted in the Messiah and fed by the sap, which represents the Holy Spirit, giving life to the Jews (the "natural branches") and Gentile alike. We Gentiles are told to remember that the olive tree holds us up and NOT to be arrogant or boast against the "natural branches" because they can be grafted in again. The olive tree is NOT the Church. We are simply grafted into God's plan that preceded us for over 2,000 years.

All the promises made to Israel in the Old Testament, unless they were historically fulfilled before the coming of Jesus Christ, are now the property of the Christian Church. These promises should not be interpreted literally or carnally, but spiritually and symbolically, so that references to Israel, Jerusalem, Zion and the Temple, when they are prophetic, really refer to the Church (II Cor. 1:20). "For all the promises of God in Him (Jesus) are Yea, and in Him, Amen, unto the glory of God by us." Therefore, they teach that the New Testament needs to be taught figuratively, not literally.
Rebuttal: Later, in this Teaching Letter, we will look at the fact that the New Testament references to Israel clearly pertain to Israel, not the Church. Therefore, no promise to Israel and the Jewish people in the Bible is figurative, nor can they be relegated to the Church alone. The promises and covenants are literal, many of them are everlasting, and we Christians can participate in them as part of our rebirth, not in that we took them over to the exclusion of Israel. The New Testament speaks of the Church's relationship to Israel and her covenants as being "grafted in" (Rom. 11:17), "brought near" (Eph. 2:13), "Abraham's offspring (by faith)" (Rom. 4:16), and "partakers" (Rom. 15:27), NOT as usurpers of the covenant and a replacer of physical Israel. We Gentile Christians joined into what God had been doing in Israel, and God did not break His covenant promises with Israel (Rom. 11:29).


How Did The Position Of The Early Church Fathers Affect The Church?

Let us look at a brief history of the first four centuries of Christianity, which established a "legacy of hatred" towards the Jewish people, which was against the clear teaching of the New Testament.

(For a complete history of Christian anti-Semitism, download a copy from Bridges for Peace website, found under the Israel Teaching Letters button at http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/. This teaching is also a chapter of , Lessons From the Land of the Bible with 13 other great teachings including "Lessons from the Olive Tree," which can be ordered from your nearest BFP national office.)

In the first century AD, the church was well-connected to its Jewish roots, and Jesus did not intend for it to be any other way. After all, Jesus is Jewish and the basis of His teaching is consistent with the Hebrew Scriptures. In Matthew 5:17-18 He states: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Before the First Jewish Revolt in AD 66, Christianity was basically a sect of Judaism, as were the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes.

Separation between Judaism and Christianity began as a result of religious and social differences. According to David Rausch in his book, A Legacy of Hatred, there were several contributing factors: 1) the Roman intrusion into Judea, and the widespread acceptance of Christianity by the Gentiles, complicated the history of Jewish Christianity; 2) the Roman wars against the Jews not only destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem, but also resulted in Jerusalem's relinquishing her position as a center of Christian faith in the Roman world; and, 3) the rapid acceptance of Christianity among the Gentiles led to an early conflict between the Church and Synagogue. Paul's missionary journeys brought the Christian faith to the Gentile world, and as their numbers grew, so did their influence, which ultimately disconnected Christianity from its Jewish roots.

Many Gentile Christians interpreted the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem as a sign that God had abandoned Judaism, and that He had provided the Gentiles freedom to develop their own Christian theology in a setting free from Jerusalem's influence. Could it be He was showing us that Temple worship was no longer necessary as His Holy Spirit now resides in us (I Cor. 6:19), not in the Holy of Holies? After the Second Jewish Revolt (AD 133-135) put down by the Roman Emperor Hadrian, theological and political power moved from Jewish Christian leaders to centers of Gentile Christian leadership such as Alexandria, Rome, and Antioch. It is important to understand this change, because it influenced the early Church Fathers to make anti-Jewish statements as Christianity began to disconnect itself from its Jewish roots.

As the Church spread far and wide within the Roman Empire, and its membership grew increasingly non-Jewish, Greek and Roman thought began to creep in and completely change the orientation of Biblical interpretation through a Greek mindset, rather than a Jewish or Hebraic mindset. This would later result in many heresies, some of which the Church is still practicing today.

Once Christianity and Judaism began to take separate paths, the chasm became wider and wider. Judaism was considered a legal religion under Roman law, while Christianity, a new religion, was illegal. As Christianity grew, the Romans tried to suppress it. In an attempt to alleviate this persecution, Christian apologists tried in vain to convince Rome that Christianity was an extension of Judaism. However, Rome was not convinced. The resulting persecutions and frustration of the Christians bred an animosity towards the Jewish community, which was free to worship without persecution. Later, when the Church became the religion of the state, it would pass laws against the Jews in retribution.

The antagonism of the early Christians towards the Jews was reflected in the writings of the early Church Fathers. For example, Justin Martyr (c. AD 160) in speaking to a Jew said: "The Scriptures are not yours, but ours." Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon (c. AD 177) declared: "Jews are disinherited from the grace of God." Tertullian (AD 160-230), in his treatise, "Against the Jews," announced that God had rejected the Jews in favor of the Christians.

In the early 4th century, Eusebius wrote that the promises of the Hebrew Scriptures were for Christians and not the Jews, and the curses were for the Jews. He argued that the Church was the continuation of the Old Testament and thus superseded Judaism. The young Church declared itself to be the true Israel, or "Israel according to the Spirit," heir to the divine promises. They found it essential to discredit the "Israel according to the flesh" to prove that God had cast away His people and transferred His love to the Christians.

At the beginning of the 4th century, a monumental event occurred for the Church, which placed "the Church Triumphant" over "Vanquished Israel." In AD 306, Constantine became the first Christian Roman Emperor. At first, he had a rather pluralistic view and accorded Jews the same religious rights as Christians. However, in AD 321, he made Christianity the official religion of the Empire to the exclusion of all other religions. This signaled the end of the persecution of Christians, but the beginning of discrimination and persecution of the Jewish people.

Already at the Church Council in Elvira (Spain) in AD 305, declarations were made to keep Jews and Christians apart, including ordering Christians not to share meals with Jews, not to marry Jews, not to use Jews to bless their fields, and not to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

Imperial Rome, in AD 313, issued the Edict of Milan, which granted favor to Christianity, while outlawing synagogues. Then, in AD 315, another edict allowed the burning of Jews if they were convicted of breaking the laws. As Christianity was becoming the religion of the state, further laws were passed against the Jews:

The ancient privileges granted to the Jews were withdrawn.
Rabbinical jurisdiction was abolished or severely curtailed.
Proselytism to Judaism was prohibited and made punishable by death.
Jews were excluded from holding high office or a military career.
These and other restrictions were confirmed over and over again by various Church Councils for the next 1,000 years.

In AD 321, Constantine decreed all business should cease on "the honored day of the sun." By substituting Sunday for Saturday as the day for Christian worship/rest, he further advanced the split. This Jewish Shabbat/Christian Sunday controversy also came up at the first real ecumenical Council of Nicea (AD 325), which concluded Sunday to be the Christian day of rest, although it was debated for long after that. Overnight, Christianity was given the power of the Imperial State, and the emperors began to translate the concepts and claims of the Christian theologians against the Jews and Judaism into practice. Instead of the Church taking this opportunity to spread its Gospel message in love, it truly became the Church Triumphant, ready to vanquish its foes.

After 321, the writings of the Church Fathers changed in character. No longer was it on the defensive and apologetic, but aggressive, directing its venom at everyone "outside of the flock," in particular the Jewish people who could be found in almost every community and nation. During this period, we find more examples of anti-Jewish bias in Church literature written by church leaders:

Hilary of Poitiers (AD 291-371) wrote: "Jews are a perverse people accursed by God forever."
Gregory of Nyssa (died AD 394), Bishop of Cappadocia: "the Jews are a brood of vipers, haters of goodness..."
St. Jerome (AD 347-407) describes the Jews as "... serpents, wearing the image of Judas, their psalms and prayers are the braying of donkeys."
At the end of the 4th century, the Bishop of Antioch, John Chrysostom (Golden Tongued), the great orator, wrote a series of eight sermons against the Jews. He had seen Christians talking with Jewish people, taking oaths in front of the Ark, and some were keeping the Jewish feasts. He wanted this to stop. In an effort to bring his people back to what he called, "the true faith," the Jews became the whipping boy for his sermon series. To quote him, "the synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater; it is also a den of robbers and a lodging for wild beasts. No Jew adores God... Jews are inveterate murderers, possessed by the devil, their debauchery and drunkenness gives them the manners of the pig. They kill and maim one another..." One can easily see that a Judeo-Christian who wanted to hold on to his heritage, or a Gentile Christian who wanted to learn more about the parent faith of Christianity, would have found it extremely difficult under this pressure. Chrysostom further sought to separate Christianity totally from Judaism. He wrote in his 4th Discourse, "I have said enough against those who say they are on our side, but are eager to follow the Jewish rites... it is against the Jews that I wish to draw up my battle... Jews are abandoned by God and for the crime of deicide, there is no expiation possible."

Chrysostom was known for his fiery preaching against what he saw as threats to his flock, including wealth, entertainment, privilege and outward adornment. However, his preaching against the Jewish community, which he believed had a negative influence on Christians, is inexcusable and blatantly anti-Semitic in its content. Another unfortunate contribution Chrysostom made to Christian anti-Semitism was to hold the whole Jewish people culpable for the killing of Christ.

In the fifth century, the burning question was: If the Jews and Judaism were cursed by God, then how can you explain their existence?

Augustine tackled this issue in his "Sermon Against the Jews." He asserted that even though the Jews deserved the most severe punishment for having put Jesus to death, they have been kept alive by Divine Providence to serve, together with their Scriptures, as witnesses to the truth of Christianity. Their existence was further justified by the service they rendered to the Christian truth, in attesting through their humiliation, the triumph of the Church over the Synagogue. They were to be a "Witness people" - slaves and servants who should be humbled.

The monarchs of the Holy Roman Empire thus regarded the Jews as serfs of the chamber (servi camerae), and utilized them as slave librarians to maintain Hebrew writings. They also utilized the services of Jews in another enterprise - usury, or money-lending. The loaning of money was necessary to a growing economy. However, usury was considered to endanger the eternal salvation of the Christian, and was thus forbidden. So, the church endorsed the practice of lending by Jews, for according to their reasoning, their Jewish souls were lost in any case. Much later, the Jewish people were utilized by the Western countries as trade agents in commerce, and thus we see how the Jewish people found their way into the fields of banking and commerce.

So, by the Middle Ages, the ideological arsenal of Christian anti-Semitism was completely established. This was further manifested in a variety of precedent-setting events within the Church, such as Patriarch Cyril, Bishop of Alexandria, expelling the Jews and giving their property to a Christian mob. From a social standpoint, the deterioration of the Jewish position in society was only beginning its decline. During this early period, the virulent judeo- phobia was primarily limited to the clergy who were always trying to keep their flocks away from the Jews. However, later, the rank and file, growing middle class would be the main source of anti-Semitic activity.

The result of these anti-Jewish teachings continued onwards throughout Church history, manifesting itself in such events and actions as the Crusades, the accusation of communion host desecration and blood libel by the Jews, the forced wearing of distinguishing marks to ostracize them, the Inquisition, the displacement of whole Jewish communities by exile or separate ghettoes, the destruction of synagogues and Jewish books, physical persecution and execution, the Pogroms. Ultimately, the seeds of destruction grew to epic proportions, culminating in the Holocaust, which occurred in "Christian" Europe.

Had the Church understood the clear message of being grafted into the Olive Tree from the beginning, then the sad legacy of anti-Semitic hatred from the Church may have been avoided. The error of Replacement Theology is like a cancer in the Church that has not only caused it to violate God's Word concerning the Jewish people and Israel, but it made us into instruments of hate, not love in God's Name.

Is the New Testament anti-Semitic? Was it Intended That the Church Treat the Jewish People with Contempt?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

While the New Testament has been used by Gentile anti-Semites, even within the Church, the writers of the New Testament were Jewish, and therefore their arguments, even critical ones, were from the vantage point of being an intra-communal debate, not inter-communal accusation. Even where the criticism is harsh, it is directed towards a particular group or sect of Jews because of their practices, which needed correcting. For example, even though Yeshua spoke harshly to the Pharisees, He nevertheless said of them, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach" (Matt: 23:2-3). He was distressed that they were "missing the mark" in their self-righteousness, which is something all of us need to be careful of doing.

The clear teaching of the New Testament is that the Church was and is to love and honour the Jewish people. In Ephesians 2:11-18, we are told that "by the blood of Messiah," we Gentiles are "made near" to the commonwealth of Israel, the covenants, promises and hopes given to Israel. In Romans 11:11-12, 25, we are told that "blindness in part" has come to the Jews so that the message would be forced out into the nations. Nevertheless, we are told that a time would come when "all Israel would be saved" (v. 26), because the gifts and callings of God towards Israel and the Jewish people were given without repentance (v. 29). God's relationship with Israel and the Jewish people is everlasting.

We Gentile Christians are told that the Jews are "beloved for the sake of the Patriarchs" (Rom. 11:28). They are a chosen people who fulfilled their calling and brought the Gospel to the world. They were chosen to:

Be obedient to God's Word and demonstrate to the world as "a light to the nations."

Hear God's Word and record it - the Bible.

Be the human channel for the Messiah.


The Jewish people have fulfilled their role. The promise to the world through Abraham was that, "in you will all the nations on the earth be blessed" (Gen. 12:3). They were to be a light unto the nations and, while they made mistakes as we all do, they did demonstrate the power of God on earth, they did hear God's Word and record it so that we have the Bible, and they were the human channel for the Messiah, who was born, ministered, died, rose from the dead, ascended to heaven and will return to Jerusalem, Israel, in a day yet to come.

God made an everlasting covenant between the land of Israel and the Jewish people that must be fulfilled and completed or His Word, the Bible, will be proven a lie, which it is not. God will never forget or annul His ancient people. If God will not fulfil His promises to Israel, what guarantee do we have that He will fulfil His promises to the Church? (See Jeremiah 31:35-37).

Are Jews, Jews, and is Israel, Israel in the New Testament? Do They Still Have a Covenant with God?

ABSOLUTELY. THE BIBLE IS CLEAR ON THIS.

The Jews are Israelites, not Gentiles (Rom. 9:4).

To Israel still belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship and the promises (Rom. 9:4).


The gifts and calling of God for Israel are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).

There are 77 references to Israel in the NT and none of them refer to the Church. Try replacing the words, "the Church," where Israel is mentioned and the passage is rendered unreadable and silly, e.g., Rom. 10:1, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." If you put "the Church" where Israel is mentioned, then it is redundant. The Church is the body of saved believers, so how could Paul's prayer be for the Church to be saved?


Psalm 105 has a seven-fold affirmation of God's promises of Canaan to Abraham. This is an everlasting promise, as was Genesis 12:1-3.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 speaks of the everlasting nature of God's promises to and for Israel, the Jewish people, which is as sure as the sun that shines by day and the moon and stars that glow in the night.

The end-time prophecies, which speak of the return of the House of Jacob to their land (Israel) and its restoration, have overwhelmingly been fulfilled in Israel and the Jewish people in the past 120 years. (See, Isa. 11:11-12; Eze. 37:1-14; Eze. 36; Eze. 35:1, Isa. 43:5,6; Jer. 16:14-16; Isa. 60:9-11; Isa. 49:22-23, etc.).


The Gospel and Yeshua came "to the Jews first, then the Greek" (Rom. 2:9,10; Matt:10:5-7;15:24). There is a distinction in roles between the two. Galatians 3:28 says: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." This is speaking of everyone's standing before God as equals, because we are all sinners saved by God's grace and the atoning work on the Cross. Nevertheless, our roles here on earth are definitely distinct; e.g., men and women, mothers and fathers, husbands and wives, etc. all have distinct roles to play. Likewise, Jews and Gentiles have distinct roles to play.

What is the Role of the Church?

"On this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it" (Matt. 16:18). The Church is built on the testimony and understanding of Peter, who is Jewish. Ephesians 2:11-14 indicates that Israel and the Jews (we) were chosen, but Gentiles (you) were also included.


The Church is related to Israel and partakers of the covenants, promises, and hopes, but we have not been called to usurp them. Our relationship is as "grafted in" (Rom. 11:17); "brought near" (Eph 2:13); "Abraham's offspring" (by faith) (Rom. 4:16); "heirs" to Abraham's promise as adopted sons (Gal. 3:29) and "partakers" (Rom 15:27).

To the world, the Church is called to preach the Gospel to all nations and make disciples (Matt. 28:19-20); to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength; and to love our neighbour as ourselves (Mk. 12:30-31).


To the Jewish people, we are called to show God's love "for the sake of the Patriarchs" (Rom. 11:28), for without them we would not have had God's Word or our Saviour who was a Jew from Israel. We are to show God's mercy (Rom. 11:31). We are to give our material gifts to help them (Rom. 15:27). We are to pray for them and for Israel (Ps. 122:6). We are to be watchman on the walls to protect them (Isa. 62:6,7). We are to help with the aliyah (immigration) to Israel and the building up of Zion (Isa. 60:9-11; Jer. 16:14-16; Isa. 49:22-23).


According to Romans 11, we are two distinct groups, both grafted into the same tree, which are the covenants and promises given to Israel; grounded in the same root, the Messiah; drinking of the same sap, God's Holy Spirit. We do not hold up the tree, but the tree us, and we are forbidden from boasting against or being arrogant to God's covenant people the Jews (Rom. 11:17-18).
What Happens When the Church Replaces Israel?

The Church becomes arrogant and self-centred.


It boasts against the Jews and Israel.


It devalues the role of Israel or has no role for Israel at all.

These attitudes result in anti-Semitism in word and deed.


Without a place for Israel and the Jewish people today, you cannot explain the Bible prophecies, especially the very specific ones being fulfilled in Israel today.

Many New Testament passages do not make sense when the Jewish people are replaced by the Church.


You can lose the significance of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament, for today. Many Christians boast of being a New Testament (NT) Christian or a NT Church as in the Book of Acts. However, the Bible of the early Church was not the New Testament, which did not get codified until the 4th century, but rather the Hebrew Scriptures.


You can lose the Hebraic/Judaic contextualization of the New Testament, which teaches us more about Yeshua and how to become better disciples.


The Church loses out on the opportunity to participate in God's plan and prophecy for the Church, Israel and the world today.
What Happens When the Church Relates to Israel?

The Church takes its proper role in God's redemptive plan for the world, appreciating God's ongoing covenant relationship and love for Israel and the Jewish people.


We can see the consistency of God's redemptive plan from Genesis to Revelation as an ongoing complementary process, not as disconnected snapshots.


We show love and honour for God's covenant people, not contempt.


We value the Old and New Testaments as equally inspired and significant for the Church today.


Bible prophecy makes sense for today and offers opportunities for involvement in God's plan for Israel.


We become better disciples of Yeshua as we are able to appreciate the Hebraic/Judaic roots that fill in the definitions, concepts, words and events in the New Testament that are otherwise obscured. Why? Many were not explained by the Jewish writers of the New Testament, because they did not feel the need to fill in all the details that were already explained in the Old Testament.
Had the Church understood this very clear message from the beginning, then the sad legacy of anti-Semitic hatred from the Church may have been avoided. The error of Replacement Theology is like a cancer in the Church that has not only caused it to violate God's Word concerning the Jewish people and Israel, but it made us into instruments of hate, not love in God's Name. Yet, it is not too late to change our ways and rightly relate to the Jewish people and Israel today. Through Bridges for Peace you can read, study and learn more, and also give to demonstrate God's exhortation to us to bless His Covenant People, whom He still loves. Not only do we need to learn and do for ourselves, but we need to teach others so as to counteract the historical error that has been fostered in the Church for nearly 2,000 years.

Thank God, He is a God of mercy, redemption and second chances.


http://www.uplook.org
http://www.voicesforchrist.org/order.html

Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you. And he went his way and proclaimed throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.

10-17-2009 09:33 PM
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rus virgil
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Post: #36
RE: The Great Tribulation

rus virgil Wrote:
.......................................................

NOW , regarding the "tribulation" , in order to understand this event which comes over "God's saints" , you (and everybody) have to read the Song of Moses !
there is the key to understand what "the (great) tribulation" is !

with all due respect for my brothers,
and with great respect for the King,
rus v.

Sussana
I think you maybe want not dialogate wit me
but I renew my exhortation for you and everybody to study the Song of Moses
it's God's command for the members of His people
Deuteronomy 31
19. "Now write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them.
20. When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their forefathers, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant.
21. And when many disasters and difficulties come upon them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath."
NIV
God's words here above, worthy to be payied our attention.

here is the key to understand what the Great Tribulation is .

your brother,
rus v.

10-18-2009 09:08 AM
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Susanna
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Post: #37
RE: The Great Tribulation

Dear Bethel Boy
.thank ou for your contribution, But being you believe the trunity doctrine proves you really haven't come to know the true God.
That is a pagan doctrine, from your link you seem to be wrapped pretty tight with the Church of Grace ,. rather then pull one of your threads up, which you never yourself contributed to. If you don't know why Jesus was born, then your missing out on the main doctrine of the Bible, which puts you in the dark.
When Adam was created he was created with the whole human race in his loins. Gen 3:20 (CEV
20The man Adam named his wife Eve [ because she would become the mother of all who live . Footnote: The man and Adam are the same in Hebrew


Jesus was born a man the same as Adam was created a man.
Jesus birth was to buy back the opportunity for all of Adams offspring to have life.

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 1 Tim 2:5-6 . This is the main doctrine of the Bible "The Ransom Sacrifice "



But your doing well Bethel Boy you seem to be cultivating that love that will be needed to make the right decision when the time comes. It may take the two witnesses along with the out pouring of Holy Spirit mentioned in Joel to wake you Trinitarians up.
I am sure the majority of the great crowd Rev 7:9 will be those who already have accepted Jesus, regardless of their religion.

So dear brother if you have the hope of going to heaven , count on living here on earth, because unless you become a adopted son of God , then Jesus already paid the price for us to be here where Adam & Eve were meant to be. On earth.
Believing Jesus is part of a God head will keep you out of the Temple of God,
Sorry !:grouphug:


Dear RV, Please never think I am ignoring you. Never would that happen !!
I promise to get back to you later today .
love susanna:grouphug:


Jehovah and one is a large army
10-18-2009 09:20 AM
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Interpretum
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Post: #38
RE: The Great Tribulation

Hi Susanna

Thanks for your reply. Just to let you know, I have never been a "Bible Student" in the religious group sense. I've probably been through much the same way of thinking as most people here:

First of all, I believed the JW interpretation of Revelation for the most part, although I never could get my head round the idea of the 7 trumpets being 7 conventions of Bible Students, or Daniel being "happy" after 1,335 days because of some organizational adjustments to the Society :dontknow:

Actually, it was these things that eventually led me to question their interpretation, and then I ended up on Robert King's e-watchman site. Basically, he said that NONE of Revelation had happened yet, which at least made more sense to me.

However, in my opinion, something was still not quite right with this interpretation. For example, if none of it has happened yet, who are we to say the 7th king is Anglo-America, or that the UN even figures in Revelation? For all we know, the UN could be replaced tomorrow by an altogether different world body.

After spending many long nights thinking about this stuff, Donbodo came along on this board, believing pretty much ALL of Revelation (apart from a few bits and pieces) had already been fulfilled.

I started to realize that some of his arguments made sense, and I could see that much of Revelation fitted amazingly well with events in the 1st century... but NOT ALL OF IT. That, in my opinion, was Donbodo's mistake.

Which is a short account of how I got to where I am now. Revelation, as I see it, is an account of what would take place STARTING with the lead up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, and running all the way through history up until the end of the 1,000 year reign.

In other words, I think the JW interpretation is full of a lot of nonsense. However, to go to both extremes... either that none of it has been fulfilled yet, or all of it has been fulfilled... kind of has Jesus ignoring a whole bunch of his followers.

Now on to your post...

Susanna Wrote:
Substitute you say !!! dear brother if it weren't for Jesus Christ there would be no Israel of God. The nation of Isreal refused the invitation of being a Royal priesthood , rejected the son of God


I agree, but as BethelBoy pointed out, God did not reject fleshly Israel. That is simply unscriptural.

Paul says that very plainly in Romans 11:

"I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew."

He then goes on to point out that God had preserved a REMNANT of 7,000 faithful ones back in Elijah's day, and that there would be a similar REMNANT preserved in his day...

"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." (vs 5)

This REMNANT are nothing to do with JWs, but as Paul makes clear, they existed in his day... they were the Jews in his day who had accepted Christ!

This is how God had not rejected Israel. This remnant were Israel, along with the grafted in Gentiles!

(Please do not get this scriptural concept taught by Paul mixed up with the JW idea of the "remnant".)

I would urge you to re-read Romans 9-11 very carefully, to understand what Paul is saying.

Basically, history was about to repeat itself with the Jews. Just as with the Babylonian exile, God did not reject his people completely but left a remnant who would return... God did the SAME THING in 70AD. This is why Paul, in Romans 9:27-29, quotes the passages in Isaiah... to make the point that only a REMNANT of Jews were going to be spared the coming desolation.

Quote:
and now you believe the woman represents Israel . Why would you believe such a thing !!!


I believe it for several reasons:

(a) Her description is similar to Joseph's dream, where he sees the sun, moon and 11 stars bowing down to him... representing his family of Israel and his 11 brothers.

(b) She wears a crown of 12 stars, which is linked to the 12 tribes of Israel.

© She gives birth to a son who is to shepherd the nations. Israel gave birth to the Messiah, Jesus Christ, who is to shepherd the nations.

(d) Herod attempted to have Jesus destroyed at birth, just as the dragon stood before the woman waiting to destroy her child.

(e) The child is caught away to God and to his throne. Jesus goes to heaven.

(d) She flees into the wilderness. The Jewish Christians fled into the wilderness in 66AD, as Jesus commanded.

In other words, the action of the woman parallels the history of Israel in the 1st century, right from the birth of Jesus (and Herod trying to destroy him) right through to the Jewish Christians (now the true Israel) fleeing to the wilderness.

Quote:
That woman in Revelation 12 symbolizes Gods Woman which is Jehovah's heavenly UNIVERSAL organization.


What does that mean, exactly? I know this is what JWs teach, but how could Satan persecute a UNIVERSAL organization once he's been kicked out of heaven?

Besides, all through the OT I could show you many places where Israel is regarded as God's woman, not some "heavenly universal organization". For example, see the last 6 or so chapters of Isaiah. God was married to Israel.

Quote:
Chapter 12 is not even into yet.
The WT and BS used all of Revelation up already, that's were the confusion comes in, we were given the truth as truth that hasn't even taken place until now , the light is now shinning.


Well, I understand why many here believe nothing in Revelation has happened yet... many of us came from Robert King's board.

But quite frankly, e-watchman's concepts are just as speculative as the Watchtower, but at least with more coherence.

Let me ask you this: Of what use was Revelation to 1st century Christians, then?

Why would Jesus give the vision to John, tell him the time was near, not to seal the words, tell them to pay careful attention and so write to 7 specific congregations... if it was really written for a people 2,000 years from John's day?

To give you a comparison. Imagine you were facing lots of troubles in your life, and so I wrote you a letter... which was all about the troubles your descendants 2,000 years from now would experience... how would you feel about ME?

You'd probably get the impression that I don't give a monkey's about you.

Well, that is NOT the impression I get of Jesus in Revelation. He cared very deeply about those 1st century Christians, which is part of the reason I'm convinced they BEGAN to be fulfilled back then. After all... that's what it says... several times, in several different ways :D

Quote:
This is the woman that gives birth to the Messianic Kingdom. This is why war breaks out in Heaven,
This is why Satan is cast out of the heavens, This is why
Satan wages war with the remaining ones of the woman's seed.
The secondary seed is still alive here on earth so his attack will be on the Two witnesses during the earthly reign of the eighth king .Rev 12:17 Gal 3:29


Let me ask you another question. Why would Jehovah allow Satan to remain in heaven this long?

Given that Satan attempted to have Jesus killed (via Herod), and then had Jesus killed (via Pilate), and then went to war with the Christians... why wouldn't He kick out Satan there and then, back when it first became a WAR?

I think that is precisely what He did. Rev 12 gives the timetable: Israel gives birth to the Son (2BC or around that time) as Satan tries to devour her child. The Son is raised to heaven (33AD), and then Israel... the faithful part (namely, Christians) flee to the wilderness (66AD).

It was a "great tribulation" during that time precisely because Satan was being kicked out of heaven!

Seriously, do you think Satan had Jesus killed, and then Jesus goes to heaven and they play volleyball with each other over the next 1,900 years? Or they stand at two different sides of heaven, heckling each other?

Do you really believe that? Or don't you think it's more LIKELY that Jesus would have cast Satan out of heaven at the first opportunity, which is shortly after he sat at God's right hand.

This would absolutely explain the "great tribulation" of 66AD... it was the time when Satan was also kicked out of heaven!

Otherwise, you have to explain why the Son would tolerate in heaven the one who had him put to death, for over 1,900 years now. Something don't sound right! :D

Quote:

Keep in mind when Bro Russell wrote he thought that every thing was at the doors. World War One allowed for chronology to play a big part in Satans
deception . Paul warned His brothers in our time
The Man of Lawlessness 2Thess 2 1-4
1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers ] 2not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. 5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

Paul is speaking to the heavenly chosen ones in our day/
The WT and the BS are Not listening.


OK, but again... notice the assumptions you are making: "Paul warned His brothers in our time..."

I often wonder why God even bothered to inspire what He did in the 1st century, given that it was written apparently for us. So Paul wasn't writing to the 1st century Thessalonians at all? :shocked:

OK, sorry for my sarcasm... I get carried away and I don't really mean it... :heartbeat: ... all I'm trying to say is that this "it's really for our day" thinking is kind of arrogant on our parts, don't you think?

It's clear that Paul was addressing a problem in the Thessalonian congregation, but there are several things that indicate that things would kick off fairly soon, in the 1st century:

(a) Paul said they KNEW what he was talking about: "... and so now you know the thing that acts as a restraint". But how could they do this, without studying the latest JW publication???

Paul obviously explained it to them beforehand, orally: "Do you not remember that, while I was yet with you, I used to tell you these things?"

This alone makes it clear he's talking to THEM, the Thessalonians... because Paul was obviously with them in person at some point beforehand.

(b) "The mystery of this lawlessness is already at work". Note the word, ALREADY. It was already playing out in the 1st century.

It's this "our day" mentality that's the problem. I'm not saying that the Bible doesn't have relevance today because it was written in the 1st century... I'm saying that we should be VERY CAREFUL about jumping to conclusions that it is speaking solely to "us" in "our day".

If I can put it bluntly... that is very arrogant of us.

The more likely solution is, Paul is quoting from Daniel 11:32-37... which is just a few verses later than Jesus' own reference to the disgusting thing, from Daniel 11:31.

Paul would no doubt have been aware of Jesus' prediction of the disgusting thing (the Roman armies) coming against Jerusalem... he was simply quoting the next part of that passage in Daniel, and showing the Thessalonians that all those things must take place before the Lord's day.

So yet again, we have more evidence that these things were fulfilled in the 1st century, and that Paul was talking specifically about Rome, and the Lord's day being the destruction of Jerusalem.

Now, I appreciate that these things might sound as nonsense, given that you perceive everything as still future. I totally understand. I've been there.

It's like a big jigsaw puzzle. Lots of pieces seem to fit or be in the right place, until you eventually realize they don't.

Seeing everything as future SEEMS to fit, just like most of us here used to accept the WTS interpretation of Revelation... it seemed to fit, didn't it? At least, at first.

But it actually leaves us out in the cold, because if nothing in Revelation has happened yet, then...

... how can we identify ANY of the wild beasts? Who says the 7th king is Anglo-America? Who says the 8th king is the UN? How can we know this, given none of it has happened yet?

... how can 144,000 be sealed IN THE FUTURE if, at least according to JWs, there are only 8,000 or so of them alive?

... how exactly are we to know when Revelation commences? If 1914 and World War I was not enough (most here, including myself, don't believe 1914 was the start of the four horsemen), and World War II wasn't... how do we know a possible World War III is enough? How do you know it's not actually referring to World War IV... (assuming Einstein wasn't right about it being fought with sticks and stones).


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10-18-2009 09:43 AM
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rus virgil
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Post: #39
RE: The Great Tribulation

Interpretum,

have you ever thought to
why apostle John have said that the "truth came through Jesus" ? John 1:17.

it is because he was present on mountain ( Matthew 17:5 ) and have heard God's voice saying
"This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.
Listen to him !"

Can you imagine/understand what impact can that have on further "interpretation" of prophecies ?

An "interpretation" of a certain prophetic passage/text must remain "in the teaching of Christ"
if not , then it is not from God !
2 John 1:9.
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=1116

Interpretum,
Are you sure your interpretations are correctly based on the teaching of Christ, and so they are "in the teaching" ?

rus v.

10-18-2009 10:27 AM
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Susanna
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Post: #40
RE: The Great Tribulation

Dear interp , while my mind is still set on your present post it would take days to answer all your doubts, but for the present I will at least get this started.

Until you see that Jehovah is dealing with a spiritual Jew ( both jew and gentile ), these are spiritual Jews that make up the Isreal of God then you are going to stay where you are now . Still caught up with what Jehovah rejected,
Why do you think The Jewish system was destroyed in the year seventy. !!!

Yes Paul was a Jew but he was also appointed by Christ himself to be a apostle to the nations, We have fourteen books he wrote to prove it.
Yes, he could trace his ancestry back to a certain tribe because the Jewish system was still operating.

Yes , Jehovah called His Jewish nation His wife and He her husbandly owner,that's how he loved her because It would be thru her that His son would get His purpose back on tract , that Adam and Eve lost.

But did the nation accept His son, ?
No , there were only 120 in the upper room when the out pouring of Jehovah's spirit took place on the Day of Pentecost

It was then that the Church of God and the Christian cong got started.
Now this was 10 days after Jesus assended into Heaven
Thousands of Jews were added then , because here they were all in
Jerusalem celebrating the day of Pentacost which was a grand time for that 120 to witness to them about the Christ being the promised seed . Acts chapter two.

This witnessing and baptizing Jews went on until the year 36,
Then the door was opened for the gentile to replace the branches , of the Jews who did not accept Christ. These are the chosen sons of Israel a holy nation .
1 Pet 3:9 reads
But you are a chosen people, royal priests, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession. You were chosen to tell about the wonderful acts of God, who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

This is your spiritual Israel of God. Total number is 144,000.
Revelation 3 :says in regards to these chosen one in our time


1-2After this I saw four angels. Each one was standing on one of the earth's four corners. The angels held back the four winds, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. These angels had also been given the power to harm the earth and the sea. Then I saw another angel come up from where the sun rises in the east, and he was ready to put the mark of the living God on people. He shouted to the four angels, 3"Don't harm the earth or the sea or any tree! Wait until I have marked the foreheads of the servants of our God."
>>>>>>>
Yes Revelation was written for our day, Jehovah is still working with his chosen ones Which is spiritual Israel.
Keep in mind John was given that revelation while he was in prison and it wasn't written until 96 CE , so that would mean the early church missed out on it if it were written for them.

There are prophecy's yet remaining to fullfill Gods Purpose so that's the reason the Days will be cut short for our coming GT is so that the chosen ones may fullfill the remaining prophecy's.

Satan would love them to die during the GT, Dead cannot carry out Gods Purpose.
I could go on & on but am going to close here with what Jesus had to say about the Jewish Nation although you didn't seem to take the judgement of the Pharisees too serious, nor the fact that Jesus told the Jews that their house was abandoned ,

Yet what do you have as proof. ?
That a woman is symbolically seen in heaven with 12 stars around her head so this must be the nation of Israel, a nation that rejected the son of God is going to have a place in the sons Kingdom !
What are you thinking !!!
The Catholics have pictures and statues made with the mother of Jesus with stars around her head , saying she is Gods woman.
Now we know better.dont we !

Jesus words on the subject is this:
Luke 19;41-44 (CEV)

41When Jesus came closer and could see Jerusalem, he cried and said:

It is too bad that today your people don't know what will bring them peace! Now it is hidden from them. 43Jerusalem, the time will come when your enemies will build walls around you to attack you. Armies will surround you and close in on you from every side. 44They will level you to the ground and kill your people. Not one stone in your buildings will be left on top of another. This will happen because you did not see that God had come to save you.

>>>>>>>>>>
Jesus was their savior and was rejected.
It was Jehovah that allowed the Roman army to destroy that Jewish system and it will be Christ himself along with the chosen ones that will destroy this worldly system Rev 19:
I know that the BS feel that Armageddon, will start in Israel, Hopefully they won't start something thinking again that Jah will protect them

susanna :grouphug:


Jehovah and one is a large army
10-18-2009 12:36 PM
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Susanna
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Post: #41
RE: The Great Tribulation

Dear rv
I had to look into the song of Moses, and to tell you the truth you probably know more about it then I do as I never go into the Hebrew scriptures much. My interest was always in what lay ahead.

But apparently if I got it straight Moses knew he was going to die and would not go into the promised Land. Yet he knew once the Israelites got over there , they were going to end up straying and worshipping idols and false gods so he's bringing to their attention what would happen to them. In fact it was Jehovah that revealed all this to Moses
Deut 31:27-3
27I know how stubborn and rebellious you and the rest of the Israelites are. You have rebelled against the LORD while I have been alive, and it will only get worse after I am gone. 28So call together the leaders and officials of the tribes of Israel. I will bring this book and read every word of it to you, and I will call the sky and the earth as witnesses that all of you know what you are supposed to do. : 29I am going to die soon, and I know that in the future you will stop caring about what is right and what is wrong, and so you will disobey the LORD and stop living the way I told you to live. The LORD will be angry, and terrible things will happen to you.30Moses called a meeting of all the people of Israel, so he could teach them the words to the song that the LORD had given him.

And here are the words:

Moses last words to the Israelites are found in the Deut 32 nd Chapter, don't want to miss this, pretend your right there. I think Moses died that same day. Just think we that have the hope of being here to greet him ,or meet him will be able to say we heard his last plea in the wilderness to the Jews, before they became a Nation.

>>>>

Now if that included their destruction I could not say, but we do know the Greater Moses Jesus Christ , did include that Jewish system being wiped out in Matt 24:th Chapter.

First would come their destruction ( which already took place ) then in the end of Satan's whole system ,comes the reward of the remnant being caught away with Jesus, into heavenly Jerusalem , and their returning with Jesus for the Battle of Armageddon, which will destroy this present system.

Thru out the history of Jehovah with the Jews ,He was always chastising them.You can see why they didn't accept his son, their hearts were not set on spiritual things.

No wonder Jehovah called them stiff necked and hard hearted .and so with that attitude they rejected the promised seed.

We do have a list of the faithful patriarchs, that Jehovah did make promises to. It would be thru these faithful men of old that the Promises of a remnant would be preserved down today. making up part of the Royal Priest hood that would rule with His son.

Now this is the way I read scriptures So I am just sharing my thoughts.

I am sure others will see differently, So dear rv never feel that I have in site on the scriptures because I don't,

I just believe them the way I read them, which does not mean i am right.

love susanna


Jehovah and one is a large army
10-18-2009 07:32 PM
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BethelBoy
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Post: #42
RE: The Great Tribulation

Dear Susanna Here is a verse for you to consider.

1 John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.


Also who is the psalm 102:25-27 speaking of ?


12 But You, O LORD, shall endure forever,
And the remembrance of Your name to all generations.
13 You will arise and have mercy on Zion;
For the time to favor her,
Yes, the set time, has come.
14 For Your servants take pleasure in her stones,
And show favor to her dust.
15 So the nations shall fear the name of the LORD,
And all the kings of the earth Your glory.
16 For the LORD shall build up Zion;
He shall appear in His glory.
17 He shall regard the prayer of the destitute,
And shall not despise their prayer.

18 This will be written for the generation to come,
That a people yet to be created may praise the LORD.
19 For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary;
From heaven the LORD viewed the earth,
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To release those appointed to death,
21 To declare the name of the LORD in Zion,
And His praise in Jerusalem,
22 When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.

23 He weakened my strength in the way;
He shortened my days.
24 I said, “O my God,
Do not take me away in the midst of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26 They will perish, but You will endure;
Yes, they will all grow old like a garment;
Like a cloak You will change them,
And they will be changed.
27 But You are the same,
And Your years will have no end.


28 The children of Your servants will continue,
And their descendants will be established before You.”


Thx BB
:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

Susanna Wrote:
So dear brother if you have the hope of going to heaven , count on living here on earth, because unless you become a adopted son of God , then Jesus already paid the price for us to be here where Adam & Eve were meant to be. On earth.
Believing Jesus is part of a God head will keep you out of the Temple of God,
Sorry !:grouphug:


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http://www.voicesforchrist.org/order.html

Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you. And he went his way and proclaimed throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.

10-18-2009 11:07 PM
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Susanna
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Post: #43
RE: The Great Tribulation

Dear Bethel Boy
this is continued on your thread
" Why one should believe in the Truinty ."
susanna :grouphug:


Jehovah and one is a large army
10-19-2009 03:32 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #44
RE: The Great Tribulation

Hi Susanna

First off I would like to point out that are beliefs aren't really as different as you may think. However, there are certain things that just can't be correct, based on looking at scriptures. I would like to ask you about them.

BTW... I agree with your concept of a spiritual Jew, so you don't need to convice me on that :D

Susanna Wrote:
This is your spiritual Israel of God. Total number is 144,000.


If this is the case, how do the "Israel of God" come OUT OF (or FROM) Israel?

"And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel." (Rev 7:4)

This only makes sense if the 144,000 come out of physical Israel. (Otherwise you are saying spiritual Israel come out of spiritual Israel, which makes no sense.)

I understand this is a difficult one to swallow, given that the WTS have taught us for many years they come out of spiritual Israel - but that doesn't really make sense.

Here's why I believe the 144,000 here WERE (I say WERE deliberately) actual, fleshly, circumcised Jews:

(1) That's what we're told! (i.e. they come "out of every tribe of the sons of Israel." So-called spiritual Israel isn't arranged into tribes.)

(2) The 144,000 are contrasted with Gentiles: "from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages". It's painting a clear picture of a small fixed number of Jews, and a large uncountable number of Gentiles.

(3) The 144,000 are a REMNANT in the sense that Paul teaches in Romans 9-11... namely, 1st century Jews who would escape their nation's destruction. (Did you read these passages? I recommend it.)

(4) Rev 7:5-8 is written as a CENSUS, which in the Bible is always associated with a physical nation... namely, the tribes of Israel!

(5) They come "out of the great tribulation". Jesus used the exact phrase "great tribulation", did he not? And you do at least agree what Jesus said in Mathew 24 has SOMETHING to do with the 1st century, right? So at the very least, if you believe Mathew 24 had at least SOME application in the 1st century, then surely Revelation 7 must as well, since it also talks of "the great tribulation".

(6) Prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, there was actually a man going round pronouncing a woe from the "four winds"... basically, he would repeat the same woe over and over again, until he was killed by a stone from the Roman seigeworks in 70AD. Nobody could shut him up for some 7 years! To me, there is a clear link between him and Revelation 7.

Quote:
Yes Revelation was written for our day, Jehovah is still working with his chosen ones Which is spiritual Israel.
Keep in mind John was given that revelation while he was in prison and it wasn't written until 96 CE , so that would mean the early church missed out on it if it were written for them.


We don't know for definite that it was written in 96... I appreciate that the church father Iranaeus in the 2nd century believes it was written in the reign of Domitian, and later church fathers quoted him.

However, I'd say the internal evidence suggests it was written before the fall of Jerusalem (likely around 66-68AD). Here's just a few things that suggest this:

(1) Notice the counsel in reference to Balaam at 2:14. This is very similar to what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 2:15, and Jude in Jude 11... both of which were probably written before Jerusalem's fall, but late... mid 60's. (I think the WTS agree with this.) So this "Balaam" like problem seems to crop up quite late in the Christian period before 70.

(2) If you look at the Greek, you will see that Jesus warns Jezebel that she is ABOUT TO be thrown into a bed (2:22) and the ones committing adultery into "great tribulation". With Smyrna, the Devil was ABOUT TO throw some of them into prison (again, look at the Greek). But Jesus would spare the Philadelphians from the hour of test, which was ABOUT TO come ["being-about to be coming" according to the Greek] upon the whole inhabited earth. This implies a pre-70 message, because of the "hour of test" and "great tribulation" that would come in the period around 70.. which involved not only the fall of Jerusalem, but the near end of the Roman empire.

(3) Look at the problems the Jews were causing, as noted by Jesus in 2:9 and 3:9. This was much more likely prior to 70 and the destruction of their city and slaughter of many of them. In fact, we KNOW they caused great problems for Christians prior to 70, with evidence in the book of Acts (which strangely enough, ends with no description of the fall of Jerusalem).

There are other lines of evidence... in fact, I did an entire thread showing the many correspondencies between Josephus and Revelation...
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=2243

Quote:
I could go on & on but am going to close here with what Jesus had to say about the Jewish Nation although you didn't seem to take the judgement of the Pharisees too serious, nor the fact that Jesus told the Jews that their house was abandoned ,


I take it very seriously... but that's kind of my point. I'm suggesting Revelation shows that judgment upon Jerusalem. That's how serious it was!

Think about it. In the Bible, we have prophecies concerning the fall of Jerusalem at the hands of Babylon... but we also have several accounts of the actual fall.

Similarly, there are many prophecies talking about the fall of ancient Babylon, and we have Daniel preserving the account of the actual fall of Babylon.

In the New Testament, we have Jesus speaking about the fall of Jerusalem, and the Temple being abandoned... but then we have something strange... NO SCRIPTURAL ACCOUNT of the prophecies being fulfilled!

Even Acts cuts short just before it all kicks off. How strange!

Unless... unless... Revelation is the continuation. It symbolizes that very fall!

Think about the 7 seals and trumpets. The city of Jericho fell when Joshua's forces surrounded it and blew 7 trumpets. What city was falling this time, in Revelation? Jerusalem!

Quote:
Yet what do you have as proof. ?
That a woman is symbolically seen in heaven with 12 stars around her head so this must be the nation of Israel, a nation that rejected the son of God is going to have a place in the sons Kingdom !
What are you thinking !!!
The Catholics have pictures and statues made with the mother of Jesus with stars around her head , saying she is Gods woman.
Now we know better.dont we !


:D

Actually, the Catholic view makes more sense than the JW one, because Mary did give birth to the Messiah. However, if that's what Catholics believe, I don't agree with them either... because there's no reason Mary would wear a crown of 12 stars (other than for Catholic reasons)... but for Israel, there would be a very good reason.

But I don't believe she's Israel simply because she has 12 stars... that's just one aspect of it. I'm saying she's Israel because everything she does in Rev 12 mirrors 1st century Israel.

However, you might ask... if she's Israel, why doesn't she reject her own son? The answer is, the ones who God considers to be Israel didn't! THEY became Christian. That's why THEY fled, in 66AD. THEY were Israel, along with Gentiles who had been grafted in to the nation.

I'm saying she can't be "God's universal organization" (whatever that means) because "God's universal organization" wouldn't need to flee anywhere. (Remember, the dragon only wars with her seed after he tries to drown her.)


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10-20-2009 04:44 PM
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Susanna
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Post: #45
RE: The Great Tribulation

Dear Intern
Please for the present just forget about Hagar the slave girl or natural Israel
Jehovah is just dealing with his Spiritual sons which belong to the free woman Sarah.

Are you reading the scriptures I'm presenting at all ??
If you just dwell on the Spiritual Temple ,you will be able to see this. You are holding onto what Jehovah had the Romans destroy

. The Christian spiritual Jews fled to the mountains in 66 CE. avoiding the destruction of the Temple and all in Jerusalem in the year 70CE

Once more Paul is explaining to the Galatian brothers that have accepted Christ, that they no longer belonged to the slave girl which was Hagar . It was hard for the natural Jews to give up the Mosaic Law, just as it was for us to walk away, but had they stayed and held on to the Law they would have been walled up and caught in that destruction in 70 CE because all the Jews from all over were there for their Festival.. Paul did his best to explain that they were now a spiritual jew. I often wonder if the gentiles under stood that they were now a spiritual Jew better then the Jew himself.
How many times at a door the householder would tell me they were the Temple of God No they werent because they didnt know the Father yet they did sotta understand the spiritual temple.
Strang isnt it !!! Just thinking out loud :)

Gal 4:21-26 ( ESV)reads

21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons,(A) one by a slave woman and(B) one by a free woman. 23But© the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while(D) the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two(E) covenants.(F) One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;[a] she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But(G) the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Those 12 tribes mention in Revelation are symbolic Of 12,000 being taken out of each tribe. These tribes are spiritual yet made up of humans from the earth, ( tribe, nation, and ,tongue) because they are in heaven. They are not the literal tribes of Israel, take notice of the names of the spiritual tribes.,

They are the chosen ones that make up the Heavenly Royal Priesthood mentioned in Peter.

If this makes sense to you I will continue later this week , as theres a lot to cover.
susanna


Jehovah and one is a large army
10-20-2009 08:42 PM
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