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The Only Promise of Heavenly Life
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gogh
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Post: #16
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

Howdy em.

Re: "...Somehow, I've always believed that heaven is a state, not a place."

What "state" do you perceive Paul was talking about here?:

Philippians 1:21...

"For in my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. Now if it be to live on in the flesh, this is a fruitage of my work—and yet which thing to select I do not make known. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better. However, for me to remain in the flesh is more necessary on YOUR account."

???

gogh


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
02-23-2010 03:15 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #17
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

JWHVACR Wrote:
Once again:

JWHVACR Wrote:
The point that I was actually making, was the separation between the terms of the "New Covenant" and Jesus' promise of a kingdom. The JW view is that both promises apply to their "anointed," so only they are under the New Covenant, and only they will go to heaven... a major misleading of the sheep.


JWHVACR,

and the New Covenant is available to anyone that wishes.

Revelation 2217
And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.

Hebrews 10:15-16
Moreover, the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: 16 “‘This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,

I will put my laws in their hearts - take life’s water free... anyone.


In Christ

abe


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02-23-2010 03:34 PM
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Totaldismay
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Post: #18
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

I am not sure how it corelates.
BUT

HOME is where the :heartbeat: IS
SO I beleive without knowing the details so heaven is also where
our :heartbeat: IS.

Luke 12:33 "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys.


God has never left us we have left him. is my belief.
we are somehow locked in our room while his is still sitting in the living room waiting for us to come to our senses and come out.
Satan is in the room with us trying evrything he can to stop us from opening the door.
God sent Adam and eve to their room and they never came out.
Because they coudln't get past themselves and the influence of the devil.
Jesus became the Door to our room and the counter voice to Satan who may even be sitting on top of us in our own room.
Jesus seemed to conquer not just himself and his own doubt's his own flesh and weaknesses but all the negative and doubting thomas's around him also. He knew that Dad was waiting with open arms.




I think it is similar to how men tune women out in certain circumstances. we really cannot hear them at least I can't.
ok don't beat me up to bad..
a few kicks won't hurt..

I am waiting to get my hearing back I can only imagine how wonderfull the sounds of LIFE are.

02-23-2010 04:05 PM
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jonalfred
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Post: #19
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

Quote:
JWHVACR Wrote:
The point that I was actually making, was the separation between the terms of the "New Covenant" and Jesus' promise of a kingdom. The JW view is that both promises apply to their "anointed," so only they are under the New Covenant, and only they will go to heaven... a major misleading of the sheep.


And that's where the JW's are wrong.... or course they apply darn near everything to themselves :shocked:

Jesus spoke of the narrow way (narrow meaning troubled, tribulation) which was also strait (meaning actually narrow denoting difficult to pass through) and then said its gate was hard to find. This is descriptive of the way to heaven offered only to those who met that special set of circumstances and lived also as a certain prescribed time.

For the bulk of humankind it is not a narrow way at all, but a way so easy even a fool would find it and be able to follow along... a way were it was not steep and narrow, but wide and level; with no stumbling stones (Isaiah 35: 8-10; 62:10) This matches well with the words of Jeremiah 31: 31-34 where HE writes His will in their new hearts.

And, while heaven is a place (where Jehovah dwells) it is not that that place will descend to the earth. The spirit realm is a different realm and there is a distinct difference between humans and spirit beings... bodies celestial and bodies terrestrial.... but the New Jerusalem, which is the Body of Christ (spirit beings) is to descend to the earth, i.e., Jesus and His Bride are to reign over earth and bring it back into subjection, perfecting all that will be perfected and their surroundings making it again the paradise it was intended to be. This is explicitly stated to be for 1,000 years, then it will be turned over by them to the Father as we're told in 1 Corinthians 15: 24-28 "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

It seems many want to put everyone on the same plane... but it is clear that John shows that those of this heavenly calling did not really know what to expect their bodies to be like in the resurrection... they knew they would not be resurrected back in their flesh, for that flesh was laid down on the altar just like Jesus' flesh was. An offering to Jehovah that is removed from the altar and taken back is not an offering at all. They were told they would reign with Him if they would suffer with Him.

They did not expect to be as Jesus was (in the flesh), but as He now is... but since He as a spirit being is now invisible to mankind (Colossians 1: 15), John put it this way. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3: 2

Scripture states both Jesus and His Bride would be partakers of the Divine Nature, which is Jehovah's nature... more than just a spirit being like an angel, but ascended on high above every name that is named. They are also called joint-heirs, which means they inherit the same thing Jesus recieved, which was immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach, which no man can see. (1 Timothy 6:16) 2 Peter 1: 4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (also Colossians 1: 12; Hebrews 3: 1)

There are many Scriptures that appertain to both classes, and they cannot be mixed without causing confusion. It does as Isomam pointed out, begin with the simple lesson of understanding that the two natures are distinct.

:heartbeat: :heartbeat: :heartbeat: jonalfred

02-23-2010 06:53 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #20
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

e-magine Wrote:
YEAH!! :cheer:.....Somehow, I've always believed that heaven is a state, not a place.
Come to think about it, the idea that people can die and go to "heaven", originated with apostate Christianity, and is contrary to the Christian concept of "resurection".
The WTS's teaching that only 144K will go to Heaven is just a modification of the more common idea that all good people
"go to Heaven". :drinking:



LOL!! Bro -- we soooooo agree! :friends::friends::friends:


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


02-23-2010 10:00 PM
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e-magine
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Post: #21
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

gogh Wrote:
Howdy em.

Re: "...Somehow, I've always believed that heaven is a state, not a place."

What "state" do you perceive Paul was talking about here?:

Philippians 1:21...

"For in my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. Now if it be to live on in the flesh, this is a fruitage of my work—and yet which thing to select I do not make known. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better. However, for me to remain in the flesh is more necessary on YOUR account."

???

gogh


I gogh!! This IS confusing. It seems Paul is saying he is ready to give it up and die, but for the sake of the congregations, he feels the need to stick around a little longer.
But first he says to die (in Christ) is to live, and that is a gain.
then he says which thing to select he will not make known. But then he does make it known by saying that what he does desire is to die (in Christ) and be released from his suffering body and be with Christ. I assume he means in the future resurection that he describes in 1Thes. 4. But being with Christ does not necessarily mean being in Heaven where the father is, does it?


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He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
02-23-2010 11:27 PM
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gogh
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Post: #22
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

Re: "...being with Christ does not necessarily mean being in Heaven where the father is, does it?"

I'm with you on that em...grin.....(yet some,imo, will be more intimately "with" him...

(Matthew 20:23..."He said to them: “YOU will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”"

:drinking:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
02-24-2010 01:07 AM
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Melancholymuse
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Post: #23
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

digital_punk Wrote:
I dont think humans were created to end up in the spirit world. :D
Seems borderline ridiculous, and in my worthless opinion, is a step away from Reincarnation. :hibye:
The Universe, like the Earth, wasnt made for nothing...:friends:


The spirit world is already roaming around on the earth right now, whether it be angels or demons. I don't see it as too much of a leap for the remainder of Heaven to merge with earth. Humans don't need to be physically changed for this to happen. The physical world will remain physical, the spiritual world will remains spriitual, just like what's already happening today.

When the Cherubs were guarding the tree in Eden, Adam and Eve weren't changed. When the angel visited Lot's family, the family wasn't changed. When Gabriel visited Mary, Mary wasn't changed -- and yet in all these cases the Heavenly realm and the Earthly realm existed together simultaneously. It would be no different when the entire Kingdom comes.


Zeal for your house will consume me -- John 2:17 (HCSB)
02-24-2010 12:36 PM
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New Heart
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Post: #24
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

digital_punk Wrote:
I dont think humans were created to end up in the spirit world. :D


Seems borderline ridiculous, and in my worthless opinion, is a step away from Reincarnation. :hibye:


The Universe, like the Earth, wasnt made for nothing...:friends:


Those who are in Christ's Spirit are living in the Spirit World while still in a fleshly body. This is the only way they can see God's Kingdom surrounding them and within them. The Kingdom of God is within us...when the daystar has risen in your hearts.


O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.
02-24-2010 01:11 PM
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Prodigal Son
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Post: #25
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

New Heart Wrote:
Those who are in Christ's Spirit are living in the Spirit World while still in a fleshly body. This is the only way they can see God's Kingdom surrounding them and within them. The Kingdom of God is within us...when the daystar has risen in your hearts.


AMEN!!

I think Christians, and especially JW's, have been conditioned to believe that ANY kind of "direct contact" with the spirit world is something Satanic, demonic, taboo, etc. So while they claim they are "spiritual", their "spiritual" senses have been deadened, turned off. They are afraid of their spiritual potential or ability. However, all these people in the Bible showed that "spiritism" could be used for Divine purposes, like Moses (who studied the magical arts with the Egyptians), the Prophets (like Daniel who studied similar arts with the Babylonians, including dream interpretation), or the Apostles, who also had "direct contact" when they spoke or wrote under "inspiration". Notice that Daniel, while having the same knowledge of dreams as all of Nebuchadnezzar's henchmen, could interpret the King's dreams because of RIGHTEOUS MOTIVES.

So if Satan is allowed to have direct contact with his people, while God or his angels are not allowed that same gift with God's people, that would be a very unfair advantage for the bad guys.

While it is true that Satan may pose as an angel of light, he quickly exposes himself when he suggests or makes subtle implications of love or service of self rather than love or service of others. God wants to give, not take, and godly people emulate God. If you notice, when we are tempted, the desire, the "voice" to do bad comes from within. We cannot blame anyone outside of ourselves. And when I say "self" I don't mean not loving oneself, but I refer to egotistical selfishness in a narcissistic way, like the Pharisees exhibited while they were putting on a showy display of what seemed to be asceticism and altruism, but they were looking for glorification of themselves rather than doing good deeds in secret that would be for the benefit of humanity.

It's hard to understand until you learn this for yourself through life experience, how the mechanics of the universe work that God put in place. Motive means everything, and the only motive that gets a positive response is UNCONDITIONAL LOVE!

Peace,
Jimmy C.


"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?" ~1 Corinthians 6:19
02-24-2010 02:37 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #26
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

Melancholymuse Wrote:

digital_punk Wrote:
I dont think humans were created to end up in the spirit world. :D
Seems borderline ridiculous, and in my worthless opinion, is a step away from Reincarnation. :hibye:
The Universe, like the Earth, wasnt made for nothing...:friends:


The spirit world is already roaming around on the earth right now, whether it be angels or demons. I don't see it as too much of a leap for the remainder of Heaven to merge with earth. Humans don't need to be physically changed for this to happen. The physical world will remain physical, the spiritual world will remains spriitual, just like what's already happening today.

When the Cherubs were guarding the tree in Eden, Adam and Eve weren't changed. When the angel visited Lot's family, the family wasn't changed. When Gabriel visited Mary, Mary wasn't changed -- and yet in all these cases the Heavenly realm and the Earthly realm existed together simultaneously. It would be no different when the entire Kingdom comes.


Melancholymuse,

If you visit youtube there are many very interesting video's containing evidence of UFO's and crop circles.

I personally do not believe they are all hoaxes.

So yes, The spirit world is already roaming around on the earth right now.

Right in front of our faces.

I think a lot of people are keeping their eyes wide shut to this.

Eventually, I think it will reach a point of undeniability.

When it reaches the point of undeniability, posts like this one will no longer be sent to the controversy section.



In Christ

abe


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02-24-2010 03:03 PM
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Scattered sheep
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Post: #27
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

Quote:
"The point that I was actually making, was the separation between the terms of the "New Covenant" and Jesus' promise of a kingdom. The JW view is that both promises apply to their "anointed," so only they are under the New Covenant, and only they will go to heaven... a major misleading of the sheep."


I took this to be the point you were making in your article and I AGREE 100%.

You have made a very insightful point regarding Jeremiah 31 on a matter of huge importance for all Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe that convincing 99.9% of JW's that they are not in the new covenant and should not partake of the emblems is a very serious doctrinal error perpetuated by the Governing Body and it's colleagues for which they are grossly accountable to Christ for.

It does not matter one jot whether your hope is to be one of the righteous ones in the "new heavens" or the "new earth", you are definitely an "anointed" Christian if you have really put your faith in Jesus Christ for your salvation and believe that his shed blood forgives your sins. If that is your sincere hope, regardless of whether you wish to live forever in heaven or earth, and if in your heart and in prayer you cry "Abba, Father" (as all sincere Jehovah's Witnesses do!), you have received the holy spirit, you should take the emblems, and you are an anointed Christian who is in the new covenant. You are an heir of the promises and have the prospect and hope of entering into the Kingdom, whether it is the heavenly or earthly domain of that Kingdom (the Kingdom is not limited to a heavenly government, as the Watchtower erroneously teaches). There is no such thing as a "true Christian" who is not an "anointed Christian" (a term the Watchtower Society uses but is found nowhere in scripture) and it is abundantly clear from the descriptions in Revelation of the "great crowd" that they are in a sanctified, holy state before God and must therefore be in the new covenant!

Thank you very much!!


"There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it." - Edith Wharton
02-24-2010 05:11 PM
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JWHVACR
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Post: #28
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

Scattered sheep Wrote:
You have made a very insightful point regarding Jeremiah 31 on a matter of huge importance for all Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe that convincing 99.9% of JW's that they are not in the new covenant and should not partake of the emblems is a very serious doctrinal error perpetuated by the Governing Body and it's colleagues for which they are grossly accountable to Christ for.


Hi SS;

Yes, if you look at the "type" -- Israel and the "vast mixed company" that left Egypt with them -- ALL were under the Old Law, ALL were to celebrate the Passover (the type), and ALL became Israel (witness Rahab and Ruth).


"Our minds don't control our beliefs, our beliefs control our minds."
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
"Buying into someone's religious, philosophical, or political teachings is the point where you've decided to allow them to do your thinking for you."
02-24-2010 06:36 PM
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smoldering wick
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Post: #29
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

Scattered sheep Wrote:

Quote:
"The point that I was actually making, was the separation between the terms of the "New Covenant" and Jesus' promise of a kingdom. The JW view is that both promises apply to their "anointed," so only they are under the New Covenant, and only they will go to heaven... a major misleading of the sheep."


I took this to be the point you were making in your article and I AGREE 100%.

You have made a very insightful point regarding Jeremiah 31 on a matter of huge importance for all Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe that convincing 99.9% of JW's that they are not in the new covenant and should not partake of the emblems is a very serious doctrinal error perpetuated by the Governing Body and it's colleagues for which they are grossly accountable to Christ for.

When JWHVACR began this thread I was under the impression this was the issue, ie., the transition from the old covenant to the new as spelled out loud and clear in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

The WT has been resposible for 'fogging' the NC by accusing Luke of not keeping his account in chronological order and thus eliminating Judas Iscariot from partaking of the Lord's Evening Meal altogether.

*** w68 11/15 pp. 703-704 Questions From Readers ***
Then Luke showed that sometime that evening Jesus indicated that one of the twelve apostles was a betrayer, which comment caused them to wonder whom he meant (Luke 22:21-23) If Luke’s presentation were accepted as being in chronological sequence, it would indicate that Judas was there when the bread and wine of the Lord’s Evening Meal were served.


Then they say: Let us remember, though, that even though Luke set out to present his Gospel in “logical order,” he did not always follow a strictly chronological order.

What evidence do they give? When Luke clarifies John the Baptist's imprisonment by Herod in 3:18-21. It's not as if Luke is giving a running account as he does in chapter 22. Any reader can see that. But somehow, just casting a shadow of doubt makes Luke's account guilty of being flawed!

This, in my mind is greatly misleading! Luke wrote his account 15 years later and in clarification of Matthew's, who failed to put Judas into the picture. Actually, none of the other gospel writers put Judas either in or out of the picture, so that Judas is neither confirmed nor denied of partaking at the last supper.

But to its own condemnation, the WT's entire case rests on disputing Luke's account as flawed. No other gospel writer is held up in dispute. So is it any wonder that my puny logic tells me that surely Luke must have consulted with Matthew's before he wrote his account? So why does he place Judas at the scene and mislead all his readers? ... Even Leonardo da Vinci correctly had his 12 at the Last Supper. So how are we to sell the WT's fictional account of 11?

And that's why the New Covenant and Kingdom Covenant were blended together, eliminating all but the 144,000 from Christ's sacrifice! Shame on them!

sw


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02-24-2010 08:13 PM
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e-magine
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Post: #30
RE: The Only Promise of Heavenly Life

Melancholymuse Wrote:

digital_punk Wrote:
I dont think humans were created to end up in the spirit world. :D
Seems borderline ridiculous, and in my worthless opinion, is a step away from Reincarnation. :hibye:
The Universe, like the Earth, wasnt made for nothing...:friends:


The spirit world is already roaming around on the earth right now, whether it be angels or demons. I don't see it as too much of a leap for the remainder of Heaven to merge with earth. Humans don't need to be physically changed for this to happen. The physical world will remain physical, the spiritual world will remains spriitual, just like what's already happening today.

When the Cherubs were guarding the tree in Eden, Adam and Eve weren't changed. When the angel visited Lot's family, the family wasn't changed. When Gabriel visited Mary, Mary wasn't changed -- and yet in all these cases the Heavenly realm and the Earthly realm existed together simultaneously. It would be no different when the entire Kingdom comes.


Like your point MCM! :thumbup:


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He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
02-24-2010 08:38 PM
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