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Bride of Christ
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Interpretum
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Post: #16
RE: Bride of Christ

Hey Steadfast

I meant to thank you earlier for this great post, which helps us to see how Jesus was alluding to the Jewish marriage festival.

Also, regarding your post about New Jerusalem, I completely agree! :thumbsup:

When this happens (New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven), the prophecies of BOTH the Old and the New Testaments are completely fulfilled simultaneously.

For example, in Zechariah 14, God promises streams of living waters out of literal Jerusalem (shortly after He steps onto the Mount of Olives), and in Ezekiel 47, God even describes these living waters out from a new, as yet unbuilt Temple, as having trees on either side of its banks, as fruit each month for healing! He even describes physical locations which will and will not be healed... such as Engedi and Eneglaim (which will be healed), with certain swampy and marshy places not healed.

It's pretty absurd to try and spiritualize these prophecies, even though Christians have attempted to do so - it is quite clearly a literal prophecy, containing an entire blueprint for a building! All it means is... it hasn't yet been fulfilled.

The only possible solution to the riddle is that New Jerusalem IS old Jerusalem, but now inhabited in true righteousness, by servants of God... and once more, the place of His footstool.

This is one of the few "mysteries" that I think many Christians are still blinded to at present, just as many Jews were blinded to their salvation and King in Jesus Christ.

As Paul said: "For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, that ye may not be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the nations be come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25)

Yet ironically, Christians are divided over the meaning of Paul's words here... understandably, since elsewhere Paul also refers to Christians as the "Israel of God".

However, elsewhere there is more than enough proof that God has unfinished business with Jerusalem. Even Jesus hinted at that, saying to the inhabitants of Jerusalem:

"For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" (Mat 23:39)

Once that happens, New Jerusalem can start truly coming "down out of heaven from God", with its gates bearing the names of the 12 tribes of Israel (Rev 21:12) as well as the foundation stones of the walls bearing the names of the 12 apostles.


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08-25-2010 02:45 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #17
RE: Bride of Christ

Hi Anja

anjaandreas Wrote:
What i do not get is this ,if our mother of whom we are born is The New Jeruzalem a city coming down from heaven FROM GOD' ,and she is named the bride of the lamb ,how come that so many christians believe the church is the bride ?


Because many churches believe in "replacement theology", that the church replaces Israel and therefore the blessings and prophecies meant for Israel are now for the church.

However, Paul corrects this error when he teaches that Gentile Christians are grafted in to natural Israel, and do not replace it.

"Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. // But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches." (Romans 11:18)

When the Jews were first sent into exile at Babylon, Isaiah said:

"Unless the LORD of hosts Had left to us a very small remnant, We would have become like Sodom, We would have been made like Gomorrah." (Isaiah 1:9)

God destroyed their city but left a "tenth" remaining, as a holy seed, a remnant:

"And though a tenth remain in it, it will be burned again, like a terebinth or an oak, whose stump remains standing when it is felled." The holy seed is its stump." (Isaiah 6:13)

Paul quoted from Isaiah in Romans (writing in the 50's of the 1st century) to show that the Jews were once again going to face God's wrath, with only a remnant being spared.

And Paul was absolutely right. God's wrath was again vented upon them in 70AD, when God broke off the useless branches of Israel, who died in the great tribulation... but spared a remnant, a "tenth", as Paul also discussed (and as alluded to in Revelation 11:13, a "tenth of the city", alluding back to Isaiah 6:13).

The bride has always been Israel... it's just that Gentiles were grafted in to Israel, which was then seeded throughout the earth.

Quote:
I myself believe the bride comes only out of the remaining sons of Israel (Rev 14:3,4) ,and their number will be 144000.
This bride is prepared for her husband Yahshua Messiah . Rev 12:17,Ezech 34:29/31.


Yes, but again this is why I believe Revelation commenced in the 1st century, prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. The 144,000 ARE the Jewish escapees from Jerusalem!

They are FIRSTFRUITS in a very real sense... being the first actual ever Christians. Based on their original description in Revelation 7, they fit the Jewish Christians who came out of Jerusalem... perfectly! That is why the "four winds" of the great tribulation are held back for them, allowing those in Judea to flee to the mountains, as Jesus commanded.

Only AFTER they escaped to safety in 66AD, were the four winds unleashed, also as prophecied by the mysterious prophet who went around Jerusalem for 7 years (63-70AD) pronouncing ONLY a woe upon Jerusalem from the four winds.

To confirm this was not some 21st century prophecy, the author of Hebrews already talked of this being a reality, even in his day (early 60's perhaps):

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel." (Hebrews 12:22-24)

The firstborn and firstfruits were JEWISH believers in Christ. (Note also WHO the writer was writing to!) They were already "enrolled in the heavens" back then, and by 66AD they had been "sealed", by their obedience to Christ in fleeing to safely.


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08-25-2010 03:23 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #18
RE: Bride of Christ

Interpretum Wrote:
When this happens (New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven), the prophecies of BOTH the Old and the New Testaments are completely fulfilled simultaneously.

For example, in Zechariah 14, God promises streams of living waters out of literal Jerusalem (shortly after He steps onto the Mount of Olives), and in Ezekiel 47, God even describes these living waters out from a new, as yet unbuilt Temple, as having trees on either side of its banks, as fruit each month for healing! He even describes physical locations which will and will not be healed... such as Engedi and Eneglaim (which will be healed), with certain swampy and marshy places not healed.

It's pretty absurd to try and spiritualize these prophecies, even though Christians have attempted to do so - it is quite clearly a literal prophecy, containing an entire blueprint for a building! All it means is... it hasn't yet been fulfilled.


Interpretum,

Barnabus spiritualizes these prophecies in the Epistle of Barnabus, one of the few books in the Codex Siniaticus omitted from the canon:

CHAPTER XI.--BAPTISM AND THE CROSS PREFIGURED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Let us further inquire whether the Lord took any care to foreshadow the water [of baptism] and the cross. Concerning the water, indeed, it is written, in reference to the Israelites, that they should not receive that baptism which leads to the remission of sins, but should procure another for themselves. The prophet therefore declares, "Be astonished, O heaven, and let the earth tremble at this, because this people hath committed two great evils: they have forsaken Me, a living fountain, and have hewn out for themselves broken cisterns. Is my holy hill Zion a desolate rock? For ye shall be as the fledglings of a bird, which fly away when the nest is removed." And again saith the prophet, "I will go before thee and make level the mountains, and will break the brazen gates, and bruise in pieces the iron bars; and I will give thee the secret,s hidden, invisible treasures, that they may know that I am the Lord God." And "He shall dwell in a lofty cave of the strong rock." Furthermore, what saith He in reference to the Son? "His water is sure; ye shall see the King in His glory, and your soul shall meditate on the fear of the Lord." And again He saith in another prophet, "The man who doeth these things shall be like a tree planted by the courses of waters, which shall yield its fruit in due season; and his leaf shall not fade, and all that he doeth shall prosper. Not so are the ungodly, not so, but even as chaff, which the wind sweeps away from the face of the earth. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in judgment, nor sinners in the counsel of the just; for the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous, but the way of the ungodly shall perish." Mark how He has described at once both the water and the cross. For these words imply, Blessed are they who, placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water; for, says He, they shall receive their reward in due time: then He declares, I will recompense them. But now He saith, "Their leaves shall not fade." This meaneth, that every word which proceedeth out of your mouth in faith and love shall tend to bring conversion and hope to many. Again, another prophet saith, "And the land of Jacob shall be extolled above every land." This meaneth the vessel of His Spirit, which He shall glorify. Further, what says He? "And there was a river flowing on the right, and from it arose beautiful trees; and whosoever shall eat of them shall live for ever." This meaneth, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit. "And whosoever shall eat of these shall live for ever," This meaneth: Whosoever, He declares, shall hear thee speaking, and believe, shall live for ever.



Link:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/te...berts.html



In Christ

abe


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08-25-2010 03:47 PM
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Steadfast
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Post: #19
RE: Bride of Christ

Interpretum Wrote:
However, elsewhere there is more than enough proof that God has unfinished business with Jerusalem. Even Jesus hinted at that, saying to the inhabitants of Jerusalem:

"For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" (Mat 23:39)

Once that happens, New Jerusalem can start truly coming "down out of heaven from God", with its gates bearing the names of the 12 tribes of Israel (Rev 21:12) as well as the foundation stones of the walls bearing the names of the 12 apostles.


Dear Interpretum,

Thank you for your great comments. :) I see earthly Jerusalem totally obliterated by NEW Jerusalem when it comes down from heaven. The New Jerusalem IS the unfinished business. Paul said: 'We have no earthly city that continues, but await the one to come'...

There is some interesting research concerning the timing of the last 3 festivals and if they have been fulfilled yet.

If they have not, there is a 10 day-window between the Feast of Trumpets and the Feast of Atonement. It may be that during THIS time frame, the world, including national Israel, will have one final opportunity to accept Messiah as their atonement or perish at Armageddon.

Have you done any research into the Jewish festivals by chance?

Love,

Sis A


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08-25-2010 07:11 PM
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BethelBoy
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Post: #20
RE: Bride of Christ

Hi steadfast, My question is " does a person need to run the race faithfully in order to be saved " or "does a person run the race faithfully because they are saved " ?

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:


Steadfast Wrote:

BethelBoy Wrote:
Hi Steadfast, I have a question about one of your statements.

steadfast Wrote:
God draws that individual by his Spirit. They run the race faithfully till death.


What do you mean by that? Is running the race " faithfully till death" a requirement for salvation?

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:


Dear BB:

Paul said: Act 20:24 But I make account of nothing, nor do I hold my life precious to myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, fully to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight. I have finished the course. I have kept the faith.

The word translated ‘course’ comes from the Greek:

G1408 - δρόμος - dromos - From the alternate of G5143; a race, that is, (figuratively) career: - course.

Alternate: G5143 – τρέχω - trechō - Apparently a primary verb (properly θρέχω threchō; compare G2359); which uses δρέμω dremō, drem'-o (the base of G1408) as an alternate in certain tenses; to run or walk hastily (literally or figuratively): - have course, run.

Indeed, the Christian walk is a race to the finish, which is death. Since Christ is our example, who was faithful till death and ran his race to the finish…so do we.

Jesus said of those whom he makes a pillar in the sanctuary of his God, New Jerusalem:

Rev 2:10 Do not at all fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw you into prison, so that you may be tried; and you will have affliction ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Love,

Sis A


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Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you. And he went his way and proclaimed throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.

08-25-2010 07:22 PM
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