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The Constant Sacrifice
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #1
The Constant Sacrifice

Thought I would bring this up because I mentioned it in another post.

I hope to inspire some thought about what the; "constant sacrifice" really is and very carefully guide true Christian people towards accepting something that will be really difficult to bear.


Hebrews 7
“Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret), ‘You are a priest forever,’”) 22 to that extent also Jesus has become the one given in pledge of a better covenant. 23 Furthermore, many had to become priests [in succession] because of being prevented by death from continuing as such, 24 but he because of continuing alive forever has his priesthood without any successors. 25 Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.
26 For such a high priest as this was suitable for us, loyal, guileless, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and become higher than the heavens. 27 He does not need daily, as those high priests do, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for those of the people (for this he did once for all time when he offered himself up; 28 for the Law appoints men high priests having weakness, but the word of the sworn oath that came after the Law appoints a Son, who is perfected forever.



The scripture above indicates that previous to Jesus Christ there was no "constant sacrifice".

He does not need daily, as those high priests do, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for those of the people

Jesus Christ is the "constant sacrifice": "for this he did once for all time when he offered himself up"


Also notice that it has much to do with the new holy covenant.

in pledge of a better covenant


To see the difference between a constant sacrifice and sacrifices that are not constant here is another scripture:


Hebrews 10:11
Also, every priest takes his station from day to day to render public service and to offer the same sacrifices often, as these are at no time able to take sins away completely.

Not constant!

Now compare those fragmented sacrifices to a sacrifice that is constant:

Hebrew 10:12
But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. 14 For it is by one [sacrificial] offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually.

A constant sacrifice!


The "constant sacrifice" mentioned in Daniel was something that is so important it gets restored during the very final part of the days:


Daniel 8:13
And I got to hear a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one proceeded to say to the particular one who was speaking: “How long will the vision be of the constant [feature] and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both [the] holy place and [the] army things to trample on?” 14 So he said to me: “Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition.”


So what "constant sacrifice" gets restored?

A better question to ask is what kind sacrifices did Jehovah want?


This kind:

Hebrew 10:4
for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away. 5 Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6 You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin [offering].’ 8 After first saying: “You did not want nor did you approve of sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin [offering]”—[sacrifices] that are offered according to the Law—


or this kind:


Hebrew 10:9
then he actually says: “Look! I am come to do your will.” He does away with what is first that he may establish what is second. 10 By the said “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.


Yes, what I have posted here is very controversial and difficult to bear if you are any kind of Christian:


John 16:12
“I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU.


I believe that understanding this is crucial no matter how difficult it might be.


This is definitely something that The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society or any other organized religion, does not understand!


Daniel 12
And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.



In Christ

abe


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09-02-2010 12:44 PM
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Mavos
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Post: #2
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

For the sake of others, I am going to post all of your verses in a translation other then the NWT.

I like the TNIV, (an update of the NIV), and the NIV is a good and accurate translation. (I can't wait for the 2011 update!)

I have also kept your original emphasis...

So here is your post with the TNIV instead of the NWT....

(I'm doing this because I am trying to understand what in the world you're talking about.... LOL :friends:)

Abe Wrote:
Thought I would bring this up because I mentioned it in another post.

I hope to inspire some thought about what the; "constant sacrifice" really is and very carefully guide true Christian people towards accepting something that will be really difficult to bear.

Hebrews 7
"The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
'You are a priest forever.' "

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him,because he always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

The scripture above indicates that previous to Jesus Christ there was no "constant sacrifice".

Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people.

Jesus Christ is the "constant sacrifice": He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Also notice that it has much to do with the new holy covenant.

the guarantor of a better covenant.

To see the difference between a constant sacrifice and sacrifices that are not constant here is another scripture:

Hebrews 10:11
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Not constant!

Now compare those fragmented sacrifices to a sacrifice that is constant:

Hebrews 10:12-14
But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

A constant sacrifice!

The "constant sacrifice" mentioned in Daniel was something that is so important it gets restored during the very final part of the days:


Daniel 8:13-14

Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord's people?"

14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.

So what "constant sacrifice" gets restored?

A better question to ask is what kind sacrifices did Jehovah want?

This kind:

Hebrews 10:4-8

It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;

6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.

7 Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.' " [a]

8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"—though they were offered in accordance with the law.

or this kind:

Hebrews 10:9-10
Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Yes, what I have posted here is very controversial and difficult to bear if you are any kind of Christian:

John 16:12-14
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

I believe that understanding this is crucial no matter how difficult it might be.

This is definitely something that The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society or any other organized religion, does not understand!

Daniel 12:9-10
He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

In Christ

abe


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-02-2010 01:41 PM
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Mavos
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Post: #3
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Abe,

To see if I understand you correctly....

1. The sacrifice of Christ Jesus is what you call the "constant sacrifice". It is constant because it was offered "once for all time", instead of "again and again" like the sacrifices under the Law.

2. You understand Daniel 8:13-14 to indicate that this "constant sacrifice" will be restored. It needs to be restored because verses 11-12 says that it was among other things, "thrown down" "because of rebellion"? So let me see if I understand your conclusion, you conclude then that this "constant sacrifice" will be restored during the "time of the end" after having been "thrown down" by the "rebellion", of what I would guess for you would be organized religion?

Is that the gist of your case?

I have a few objections.

First, I dislike the translation "constant feature", in Daniel 8. The NIV does a good job by translating it, "daily sacrifice", and the ESV translates it "regular burnt offering". This then, is a clear reference to the temple regularly repeated, (hence constant, regularly repeated), sacrifices offered under the law and not to the once for all sacrifice of Christ.

Second, the sacrifice of Christ, as is most evident by your quotes from Hebrews, is "once for all time". Hebrews says several times that the Sacrifice of Christ is "once for all time". If it is once for all time, then it can't be repeated. If it was repeated, it would no longer be once for all time. It also can not be restored, because it can't be "thrown down". This sacrifice is for "those who come to God through him". It is a sacrifice for believers. These believers are, "saved completely" and "made [them] perfect". He is the sacrifice and the High Priest. He presents to the Father a perfect sacrifice, unlike those under the law. Christ's sacrifice on Calvary is the final sacrifice. The repetitive nature of the Old Testament sacrifices reminds that sin hasn't actually been removed or atoned for, and that these sacrifices were imperfect. Christ "entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption." (Hebrews 9:12) "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14) "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him,because he always lives to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:25) Christ's sacrifice is a not to be repeated event. It is the sacrifice that is all sufficient and all effectuate to everyone who, by the Spirit, turns to him in true humble faith.

Third, the entire chapter of Daniel 8 has nothing to do with end times. This is the Goat and the Ram. The Goat, was Alexander. The horns were his four generals who split up his empire.

The passage in question, 11-14, should be understood in that light. According to the Jewish history recorded in 1 Maccabees (in the Apocrypha), Antiochus IV tried to unify his realm by forcing the Jews to forsake their law and cultural distinctives, but when they refused he punished them severely. Because of renewed transgression on the part of God's people, the saints and the temple sacrifices were handed over into the hands of Antiochus IV, but only for a limited period: 2,300 evenings and mornings, or a little over six years (perhaps signifying the period from 170 b.c., the death of Onias III, the high priest, to December 14, 164, when Judas Maccabeus cleansed and rededicated the temple; compare 1 Macc. 4:52). In the end, the little horn (Antiochus IV) would be judged and the sanctuary restored to its rightful state.

Thanks,

Matt


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-02-2010 02:53 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #4
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Mavos Wrote:
For the sake of others, I am going to post all of your verses in a translation other then the NWT.

I like the TNIV, (an update of the NIV), and the NIV is a good and accurate translation. (I can't wait for the 2011 update!)

I have also kept your original emphasis...

So here is your post with the TNIV instead of the NWT....

(I'm doing this because I am trying to understand what in the world you're talking about.... LOL :friends:)



Mavos,

TNIV is your preference this time?

Ok, thats good because it more plainly explains who and what sacrifice is being removed.

Here it is:


Daniel 8 - TNIV
11 It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. 12 Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"
14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."



Who is the Prince of the host? -- Jesus Christ

it took away the daily sacrifice from him (from Jesus Christ!)

The only sacrifice of any importance that belongs to Jesus Christ is his crucifixion and the holy covenant that it inaugurated through his shed blood.

the place of his (Jesus Christ) sanctuary was brought low

Where is Jesus Christs sanctuary?

Literal Temple in Jerusalem or a Temple in Heaven?

Is Jesus Christs temple the Jewish Temple or the Christian Temple?



the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it.



The host of saints are the anointed.

Were they to perform daily repetitive sacrifices in the literal Jerusalem Temple?

No!

The sacrifice of importance to the saints is Jesus Christs crucifixion.

Are you getting the gist of it?

Christianity is entirely dependent on Jesus Christs constant sacrifice.


Daniel 9:27 now takes on an extremely more significant threat to Christianity that most people are able to bear.

and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.



The gist of it is that the value of Jesus Christs sacrifice is terminated at the half of the week.

Yes, you should find the gist of it disturbing.


In Christ

abe


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The Unforgivable Sin
09-02-2010 04:34 PM
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Mavos
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Post: #5
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

A few points....

(1) Daniel 8:9-14 TNIV

"Out of one of them (the four horns) came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the LORD; it took away the daily sacrifice from the LORD, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the LORD's people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD's people?"

14 He said to me, 'It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.'"

Notice, this horn that is one of the four horns, it is the subject here in this passage. Notice also the passage says that the Horn set himself up to be as the commander of the army of the LORD, (or "Prince of the host" ESV). He is setting himself up as God.

Antiochus IV viewed himself as a god, as his nickname “Epiphanes” came from coins made with the phrase “god manifest” (Gk. theos epiphanēs) on the back of them. He thought he was the god on earth.

Jesus also refers to Daniel, "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matthew 24:15-16)

Jesus refers to what the Daniel prophecy had it's initial fulfilled— during the days of the Maccabees when Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Seleucid king we've been talking about, ordered that an altar to the Greek god Zeus be constructed in the temple (167 b.c.). He also decreed that swine and other unclean animals were to be sacrificed there, that the Sabbath was to be profaned, and that circumcision was to be abolished. But Jesus clarifies that the complete fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy will be found in the Roman destruction of the temple in a.d. 70.

Paul also applies the prophecy of Daniel to the coming destruction of Jerusalem, "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

(2) The temple where Christ offers his sacrifice is the Heavenly Temple, before the Father. Hebrews seems to indicate this quite well.

(3) "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." - Daniel 9:27

This refers to Christ's atonement. With the death of Jesus on the cross, the atoning sacrifices of the OT were abolished (Hebrews 10:1–9). His death brought those whom God had chosen into the new covenant relationship with the Lord.

(4) Are you really suggesting that the value of Christ's death is temporarily insufficient to save anyone? What manner of blasphemy is this? Jesus Christ, the perfect savior, fails to save? The only name given under heaven to be saved, actually, can't save anyone because he has been thwarted? This is so contrary to the entire message of the New Testament! The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are the only basis for our justification and entry into the New Heavens and New Earth. Have you even read half the things that Paul says the Cross of Christ accomplished for us? Have you even read what Hebrews says the sacrifice and intercession of Christ does for us? Nothing can stop the Cross of Christ! It is the death of Christ that defeats the Dragon, (Revelation 12)!

What you are teaching is heresy. Plain and simple. If you truly believe that the sacrifice of Christ is no longer of any saving value, if you believe that Christians are to leave the church and go into spiritual isolation, then you are not a Christian by any definition of the term. You are a false teacher, a wolf in sheep's clothing.

How dare you malign the perfect work of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Matt


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-02-2010 06:12 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #6
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Mavos Wrote:
The passage in question, 11-14, should be understood in that light. According to the Jewish history recorded in 1 Maccabees (in the Apocrypha), Antiochus IV tried to unify his realm by forcing the Jews to forsake their law and cultural distinctives, but when they refused he punished them severely (see note on Dan. 8:23). Because of renewed transgression on the part of God's people, the saints and the temple sacrifices were handed over into the hands of Antiochus IV, but only for a limited period: 2,300 evenings and mornings, or a little over six years (perhaps signifying the period from 170 b.c., the death of Onias III, the high priest, to December 14, 164, when Judas Maccabeus cleansed and rededicated the temple; compare 1 Macc. 4:52). In the end, the little horn (Antiochus IV) would be judged and the sanctuary restored to its rightful state.

Thanks,

Matt


Mavo,

Have you been convinced that their were saints in 170 b.c.


In Christ

abe


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The Unforgivable Sin
09-02-2010 06:42 PM
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Mavos
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Post: #7
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

ablebodiedman Wrote:

Mavos Wrote:
The passage in question, 11-14, should be understood in that light. According to the Jewish history recorded in 1 Maccabees (in the Apocrypha), Antiochus IV tried to unify his realm by forcing the Jews to forsake their law and cultural distinctives, but when they refused he punished them severely (see note on Dan. 8:23). Because of renewed transgression on the part of God's people, the saints and the temple sacrifices were handed over into the hands of Antiochus IV, but only for a limited period: 2,300 evenings and mornings, or a little over six years (perhaps signifying the period from 170 b.c., the death of Onias III, the high priest, to December 14, 164, when Judas Maccabeus cleansed and rededicated the temple; compare 1 Macc. 4:52). In the end, the little horn (Antiochus IV) would be judged and the sanctuary restored to its rightful state.

Thanks,

Matt


Mavo,

Have you been convinced that their were saints in 170 b.c.


In Christ

abe


"Saints" is an exeptionally poor translation. The term is translated much better by the TNIV as "holy people". God has always had a "holy people". There was always been a remnant. The holy people are the elect. There are those who are chosen by God in the Old Testsment and New Testament times. The evidence of being a "saint" is that one has a true and living faith. All of the true believers, from Abel until Christ returns, are part of God's holy people. (1 Peter 2:1-10)That includes 170 B.C. and today. So yes, it is most obvious there were "holy people".

Matt


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09-02-2010 07:00 PM
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TruthSeeker
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Post: #8
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Dear brother Mavos, may you continue in our Lord and Savior in the enlightenment he has entrusted with you.

Dear brother, you said,

Are you really suggesting that the value of Christ's death is temporarily insufficient to save anyone? What manner of blasphemy is this? Jesus Christ, the perfect savior, fails to save? The only name given under heaven to be saved, actually, can't save anyone because he has been thwarted? This is so contrary to the entire message of the New Testament! The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are the only basis for our justification and entry into the New Heavens and New Earth. Have you even read half the things that Paul says the Cross of Christ accomplished for us? Have you even read what Hebrews says the sacrifice and intercession of Christ does for us? Nothing can stop the Cross of Christ! It is the death of Christ that defeats the Dragon, (Revelation 12)!

Yes, Christs' sacrifice is once and for all time, and as he himself said, "if you believe I have come from the Father and have died and was resurrected, you have already passed over from death to life". His unselfish act of dying for the salvation of all mankind was in fact the defeat for Satan and the freedom for all mankind. That is why the apostle Paul could say in Romans 8:38, "I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God's love that is in CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD".

It has been accomplished, it is done once and for all time and cannot be changed.

May you be well my dear brother and may you always have the love and peace of our King and Redeemer as you continue to work in his cause.

Christian love, brother Fred


1st John 4:20 If anyone makes the statement: "I love God," and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God whom he has not seen.
09-02-2010 07:05 PM
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Mavos
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Post: #9
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Fred,

Thank you for those kind words. You are right on the money. When Christ said, "Tetolestai" "It is finished." He meant it. It's over. Satan lost. Revelation 12 is just an elaborate way of describing the defeat of Satan by the death of Christ. That it isn't some future battle is clear by the phrase "the dragon was defeated by the word and the blood of the lamb." But not according to Abe. For Abe it isn't finished, but defeated. Maybe it should be, "the lamb was defeated by the interpretation and eisegesis if Abe".

Fred, may you take your comfort and assurance of salvation from the cross of Christ where our Lord gave his life as the never to be repealed, perfect, sacrifice for our sins. To Him be the glory forever and ever, Amen.

Matt


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-02-2010 07:25 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #10
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Mavos Wrote:
A few points....

(1) Daniel 8:9-14 TNIV

"Out of one of them (the four horns) came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the LORD; it took away the daily sacrifice from the LORD, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the LORD's people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD's people?"

14 He said to me, 'It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.'"

Notice, this horn that is one of the four horns, it is the subject here in this passage. Notice also the passage says that the Horn set himself up to be as the commander of the army of the LORD, (or "Prince of the host" ESV). He is setting himself up as God.

Antiochus IV viewed himself as a god, as his nickname “Epiphanes” came from coins made with the phrase “god manifest” (Gk. theos epiphanēs) on the back of them. He thought he was the god on earth.

Jesus also refers to Daniel, "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matthew 24:15-16)

Jesus refers to what the Daniel prophecy had it's initial fulfilled— during the days of the Maccabees when Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Seleucid king we've been talking about, ordered that an altar to the Greek god Zeus be constructed in the temple (167 b.c.). He also decreed that swine and other unclean animals were to be sacrificed there, that the Sabbath was to be profaned, and that circumcision was to be abolished. But Jesus clarifies that the complete fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy will be found in the Roman destruction of the temple in a.d. 70.

Paul also applies the prophecy of Daniel to the coming destruction of Jerusalem, "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

(2) The temple where Christ offers his sacrifice is the Heavenly Temple, before the Father. Hebrews seems to indicate this quite well.

(3) "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." - Daniel 9:27

This refers to Christ's atonement. With the death of Jesus on the cross, the atoning sacrifices of the OT were abolished (Hebrews 10:1–9). His death brought those whom God had chosen into the new covenant relationship with the Lord.

(4) Are you really suggesting that the value of Christ's death is temporarily insufficient to save anyone? What manner of blasphemy is this? Jesus Christ, the perfect savior, fails to save? The only name given under heaven to be saved, actually, can't save anyone because he has been thwarted? This is so contrary to the entire message of the New Testament! The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are the only basis for our justification and entry into the New Heavens and New Earth. Have you even read half the things that Paul says the Cross of Christ accomplished for us? Have you even read what Hebrews says the sacrifice and intercession of Christ does for us? Nothing can stop the Cross of Christ! It is the death of Christ that defeats the Dragon, (Revelation 12)!

What you are teaching is heresy. Plain and simple. If you truly believe that the sacrifice of Christ is no longer of any saving value, if you believe that Christians are to leave the church and go into spiritual isolation, then you are not a Christian by any definition of the term. You are a false teacher, a wolf in sheep's clothing.

How dare you malign the perfect work of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Matt



Mavos,

What you are suggesting is that the daily sacrifice was taken away from the Jews ( because saints don't do those kind of sacrifices that occurred in the literal temple) immediately before Jesus Christ was crucified and made those sacrifices redundant anyway.

Big deal!

Jehovah did not like those sacrifices anyway.

The scriptures however, show that those sacrifices will be restored.

Why restore a daily sacrifice that Jehovah no longer wanted?

Quote:
How dare you malign the perfect work of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Its not me that maligns it.

The Apostle Paul shows that a future son of destruction (fallen saints, the evil slave) will enter the temple and lift himself up.

This situation will be found immediately before Jesus Christ returns to gather together his chosen ones.


2nd Thessalonians 2
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

When Paul wrote this there was only one sacrifice that meant anything.

Jesus Christs sacrifice.

What you are suggesting above is that someone removed the Jewish Temple Sacrifices that Jehovah no longer wanted anyway.


The fallen saints that Daniel 8 refers to are that same "son of destruction" that Paul talks about here.

Not Judas Iscariot because he had already long come and gone by that time.


Jesus Christ will still return to gather his chosen ones.

Matthew 24
29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the peoples of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



Now that you seem to be getting the gist of what I am saying there exists very good reason to wonder who exactly those chosen ones will be!

Do you now get the gist of what Jesus Christ said?

Matthew 24:45
"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.


Now that you do seem to get the gist of what I am saying then does the "disgusting thing" seem even more disgusting to you than you had ever in your life imagined!

I think you do!


In Christ

abe


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09-02-2010 07:28 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #11
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
The scripture above indicates that previous to Jesus Christ there was no "constant sacrifice".

He does not need daily, as those high priests do, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for those of the people


The scripture says the exact OPPOSITE of what you're asserting... that prior to Jesus, the priests had to offer up sacrifices daily.

This was a continual feature. (Scripture4All.org's Hebrew Interlinear translates the word as "continually"). It was continued up until 70AD, when during the "half of the week", there were no more men left to be found to offer it.

Jesus Christ certainly ended the need for continual sacrifices to be offered, but they still continued to be offered under the Jewish system, until 70AD.

Jesus' sacrifice is permanent, but it is not continual. He died once for all time.


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09-02-2010 07:31 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #12
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Hi Mavos

Mavos Wrote:
(1) Daniel 8:9-14 TNIV
"Out of one of them (the four horns) came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land.


This passage is actually ambiguous. I also assumed the small horn came out of the previous horns, but if you read the prior verse, it could also be talking about the four WINDS... in fact, that is the last thing spoken.

If the small horn came out of one of the four WINDS, I would suggest the small horn that grew great is actually the Romans... which would perfectly fit with how the Romans acted towards the Jews and Christians... it was the Romans who took away the sanctuary, and stood up against the Prince... in harmony with Daniel 11:22.

I suspect Antiochus is not the fulfillment, but it fits better with the Romans, and also is in perfect harmony with when the Romans first appear in the Daniel 11 prophecy, namely at verses 15-19 with Pompeii's capture of Jerusalem, Julius Caesar, Mark Anthony and Cleopatra, and Caesar's assassination upon returning home... to be followed by Tiberius, who broke the Leader of the covenant (Jesus Christ).

Ironically, before verse 15 and the appearance of the Romans, verse 14 talks about the Jews being carried away TRYING to make a vision come true... this is perhaps describing their belief that the prior vision WAS fulfilled with Antiochus!

This was certainly the prevailing opinion when Jesus warned them about the "disgusting thing", which explains why the 1st century Jew needed a lot of discernment to understand Daniel.


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09-02-2010 07:41 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #13
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Mavos Wrote:
Fred,

Thank you for those kind words. You are right on the money. When Christ said, "Tetolestai" "It is finished." He meant it. It's over. Satan lost. Revelation 12 is just an elaborate way of describing the defeat of Satan by the death of Christ. That it isn't some future battle is clear by the phrase "the dragon was defeated by the word and the blood of the lamb." But not according to Abe. For Abe it isn't finished, but defeated. Maybe it should be, "the lamb was defeated by the interpretation and eisegesis if Abe".

Fred, may you take your comfort and assurance of salvation from the cross of Christ where our Lord gave his life as the never to be repealed, perfect, sacrifice for our sins. To Him be the glory forever and ever, Amen.

Matt


Mavos,

Jesus Christ conquered Satan however, now the saints have to conquer him too.

The Apostle Paul made it clear that Satan would use a new "son of destruction" to undermine the Christian Temple.

The Apostle Paul calls that "son of destruction"; the man of lawlessness.

Yes, the Christian Temple established by the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ.

Who does this?

2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.


You continue to perpetrate the idea that the saints will all be saved because of Jesus Christs sacrifice.

Yep, nows the time to slap each other on the back and say what jolly good fellows you are.

If you read and understood the letters to the 7 congregations you would realize this is false!

Satan has undermined the Christian Temple which Jesus Christ established with his sacrificial blood, they are those who now belong to the synagogue of Satan.

The consequences are huge.

Desolations and extermination.

Thats why Jesus Christ does this to his own Kingdom when he returns at the seventh trumpet:

Matthew 13
The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


Let him that has ears listen


In Christ

abe


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09-02-2010 08:16 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #14
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
The scripture above indicates that previous to Jesus Christ there was no "constant sacrifice".

He does not need daily, as those high priests do, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for those of the people


The scripture says the exact OPPOSITE of what you're asserting... that prior to Jesus, the priests had to offer up sacrifices daily.

This was a continual feature. (Scripture4All.org's Hebrew Interlinear translates the word as "continually"). It was continued up until 70AD, when during the "half of the week", there were no more men left to be found to offer it.

Jesus Christ certainly ended the need for continual sacrifices to be offered, but they still continued to be offered under the Jewish system, until 70AD.

Jesus' sacrifice is permanent, but it is not continual. He died once for all time.


Interpretum,

What you are suggesting here is that the daily sacrifices made in the Jewish temple were removed by the "little horn" in 70 ad.

Yet Daniel 8 says those same removed daily sacrifices will be restored 2300 evenings and mornings later! Sometime after 70ad.

Daniel 8:14
He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

Jesus Christs shed blood however, replaced those same Jewish daily sacrifices offered in the literal temple when he was crucified in 33ad with a constant sacrifice.

None of what you are suggesting fits with the scripture or makes any sense.

Reading your posts is like reading a Watchtower Magazine.

In Christ

abe


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09-03-2010 12:47 AM
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Seraphim
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Post: #15
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Abe your dealing with very deep scriptures and there are quite a few ways to interpret them. Any that would include the so called constant sacrifice to be the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross raises more problems than the other interpretations. There is no way the value of the cross will be terminated ever. You simply have to look around you and see the faith many have in it to work that one out. Your theology is seriously floored because the greatest testament of a parents love for their children can never be terminated even for a second. These things remain , faith, hope and love but love is the greatest, yet all three remain and are never terminated.

The biggest and first lie of the serpent was the implication that God was withholding something from Adam and Eve for his own selfish purposes, thus implying that Gods love was selfish, and not that of a parent, driving a wedge of mistrust between God and man. The truth that God was not going to withhold Adam and Eves inheritance from them and sooner or later give them all things, resting on a foundation of trust which is faith, which was made to look false by Satan. Because Satan destroyed trust between God and man, meant that the foundation of God and mans relationship was not there. All relationships depend on trust to function, even if not all things are known or understood in the present. Hence love is over and above knowledge, theological or otherwise. The truth is God had to reestablish the basis for trust, which is faith, between God and man, which he did through Jesus. On this foundation all things will be inherited by those who have faith, which is trust, in God and Jesus, because trust is the basis of relationship, and relationship the basis for everything else including partnership with God and full inheritance. I afraid Abe you appear to be preaching a satanic doctrine that the cross which represents complete trust in God and what Adam lost is terminated for a time. Not true! It seems to be an anti Christ doctrine. I'm not sure you realize that, because you get so caught up these deep things, and unfortunately in fear mongering. Perfect love throws fear outside does it not, for those with faith in the cross?

09-03-2010 08:48 AM
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