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The Constant Sacrifice
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Mavos
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Post: #16
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

abe Wrote:
What you are suggesting is that the daily sacrifice was taken away from the Jews ( because saints don't do those kind of sacrifices that occurred in the literal temple) immediately before Jesus Christ was crucified and made those sacrifices redundant anyway.

Big deal!

Jehovah did not like those sacrifices anyway.

The scriptures however, show that those sacrifices will be restored.

Why restore a daily sacrifice that Jehovah no longer wanted?



abe Wrote:
What you are suggesting above is that someone removed the Jewish Temple Sacrifices that Jehovah no longer wanted anyway.


Then why did he give them in the first place Abe? He gave them to be a reminder of sins year after year. He gave them so that they could be types and shadows and thus point to the final and complete sacrifice of Christ. The fact is not that God didn't like the sacrifices, but he didn't like the hypocracy with which they were given. Pleople were giving them to perform a religious duty, not offering them with faith and trust that God would provide a Messiah and final sacrifice.

What I am saying is that the sacrifices that were halted was the "daily sacrifice" (NIV) or the "regular burnt offering" (ESV). These were the morning and evening sacrifices offered in the Jewish Temple around B.C. 170-ish. Then, six years latter, the "daily sacrifice" (NIV) or the "regular burnt offering" (ESV) was restored. This happened almost 200 years before the sacrifice of Christ on the cross so the animal sacrifices were still in effect and part of God's will until A.D. 30 or 33.

(Interpretum, you think that this has to do with the Romans, because the little horn comes out of the four winds and not the four horns. Very interesting. I have never heard that view and would need to do more research before I would accept that view. It is possible that Daniel referres to the Romans and their desecration of the Temple in A.D. 70 in one of the other references, 9:27; 11:31; 12:11)

abe Wrote:
The Apostle Paul shows that a future son of destruction (fallen saints, the evil slave) will enter the temple and lift himself up.


abe Wrote:
The Apostle Paul made it clear that Satan would use a new "son of destruction" to undermine the Christian Temple.

The Apostle Paul calls that "son of destruction"; the man of lawlessness.

Yes, the Christian Temple established by the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ.


No, it wasn't "fallen saints" nor was it the "Christian Temple". He is the "man of lawlessness". By "man" I usually think, MAN. It isn't a group of people. The man of lawlessness was Titus Vespasian, (and by synecdoche, rest of the Roman Caesars). The "rebellion" being referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the Jewish Rebellion against Rome from A.D. 66-70. The temple referenced is the Jewish temple built by Herod the Great. Paul is essentially saying the same thing that his companion Luke records Jesus as saying, "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near." (Luke 21:20) Notice what the Jewish Matthew calles "'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel" the Gentile Luke interprets as "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near." The the abomination that causes desolation was the destruction of Jerusalem and it's temple in A.D. 70. That is what Paul is talking about here. He is saying that Jesus will not return yet because Jerusalem and it's temple haven't been destroyed.

abe Wrote:
Jesus Christ conquered Satan however, now the saints have to conquer him too.


The way we conquer Satan is by placing our faith in Christ. Jesus said, "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." (John 16:33) Notice that Jesus won the victory for us. That is the basis for our victory. We have victory because of our union to Christ by faith. "For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." (1 John 5:4-5) Paul says that, "we are more than conquerors through him who loved us." (Romans 8:27) "But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 15:57) Without the death and resurrection of Christ, none of this is possible. We are completely helpless and forever lost without the sacrifice of Christ. If you take it away, there is no salvation for anyone. All are condemned. No one is saved. The devil has won. That is why what you are teachings is blashphemy. God doesn't fail.

"You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:26-30)

abe Wrote:
You continue to perpetrate the idea that the saints will all be saved because of Jesus Christs sacrifice.


How else is anyone saved Abe?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. ... God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith." (Romans 3:21-22, 25)

"This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins." (1 John 4:9-10)


Anything else is not the Gospel and not the Christian faith.

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let that person be under God's curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let that person be under God's curse!" (Galatians 1:6-9)

Abe Wrote:
Satan has undermined the Christian Temple which Jesus Christ established with his sacrificial blood, they are those who now belong to the synagogue of Satan.


Ah yes, "I will build my church and the gates of Hell will surely overcome it." Yes, that's what it says, I remember now.

Abe Wrote:
Matthew 13

It's funny that every time you quote this passage, you never quote the actual parable. Why is that? Perhaps because the meaning of words and phrases are determined by CONTEXT. AH yes! Context. The bane of Abe's existance. But hey, I understand, you can't actually let the Bible speak for itself. That would just be silly. Then you might actually be ... [gasp] wrong. Can't have that.

In the parable, where are the weeds gathered out of? The field obviously. What is the field? The verse you didn't quote, "The field is the world." (Verse 37) It is obvious that "everything that causes sin and all who do evil" are the weeds mentioned. Where are the weeds taken out of? The field. What is the field? The world. "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil" (Verse 37 TNIV). Notice "weed out of his kingdom". The field is his kingdom. That's where the weeds are taken from. The field is ... the church? NO! "The field is the world." (Verse 37) Terms are defined by their use in context, not by the way they are used in other contexts. "His kingdom" here is the world. The world here, doesn't mean "world" as the wicked system, like it does in other places. It means the world. The earth. Terra Firma. "The field is the world." (Verse 37)

Abe, I'm sorry, but you are teaching garbage. I beg of you to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus and his perfect, complete, and everlasting sacrifice. Without that sacrifice and it's effects, there is no salvation for anyone.

Matt


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-03-2010 11:08 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #17
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Seraphim Wrote:
Abe your dealing with very deep scriptures and there are quite a few ways to interpret them. Any that would include the so called constant sacrifice to be the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross raises more problems than the other interpretations. There is no way the value of the cross will be terminated ever. You simply have to look around you and see the faith many have in it to work that one out. Your theology is seriously floored because the greatest testament of a parents love for their children can never be terminated even for a second. These things remain , faith, hope and love but love is the greatest, yet all three remain and are never terminated.

The biggest and first lie of the serpent was the implication that God was withholding something from Adam and Eve for his own selfish purposes, thus implying that Gods love was selfish, and not that of a parent, driving a wedge of mistrust between God and man. The truth that God was not going to withhold Adam and Eves inheritance from them and sooner or later give them all things, resting on a foundation of trust which is faith, which was made to look false by Satan. Because Satan destroyed trust between God and man, meant that the foundation of God and mans relationship was not there. All relationships depend on trust to function, even if not all things are known or understood in the present. Hence love is over and above knowledge, theological or otherwise. The truth is God had to reestablish the basis for trust, which is faith, between God and man, which he did through Jesus. On this foundation all things will be inherited by those who have faith, which is trust, in God and Jesus, because trust is the basis of relationship, and relationship the basis for everything else including partnership with God and full inheritance. I afraid Abe you appear to be preaching a satanic doctrine that the cross which represents complete trust in God and what Adam lost is terminated for a time. Not true! It seems to be an anti Christ doctrine. I'm not sure you realize that, because you get so caught up these deep things, and unfortunately in fear mongering. Perfect love throws fear outside does it not, for those with faith in the cross?


Seraphim,

Yes, those scriptures are very deep.

I have great faith in Jesus Christ and the things his shed blood inaugurated for mankind.

I believe everything he said.

Isn't that what faith in Jesus Christ is all about?

Here is what he said:

Matthew 24:42
Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.
43 “But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.



If you get the gist of what I have said above then you should realize that "the house has been broken into" in a very reprehensible way.

I perfectly understand all the reasons why a Christian does not want to believe or have faith in what Jesus Christ said above.

I fully realized that lifting up my voice in this way would invite all kinds of reproaches, persecutions, denials and that I would be hated for saying such things.

I could just shrink back in fear and keep my mouth shut.

Would that be a loving thing to do considering the enormous consequences?

I don't think so.

Perfect love throws fear outside does it not, for those with faith in the cross.


In Christ

abe


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09-03-2010 11:35 AM
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Seraphim
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Post: #18
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

The spirit of loving is not what I detect from you.

09-03-2010 12:20 PM
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Mavos
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Post: #19
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Abe Wrote:
I have great faith in Jesus Christ and the things his shed blood inaugurated for mankind.


Is that the same shed blood that can't save anyone anymore because it was "taken away" when the Church "was thrown down"? The Church we should now leave? Your savior can't save. You have faith in a sacrifice that can't save. You have faith in a God whose plan to save by the blood of his Son was so easily defeated.

You are nowhere near New Testament and Historical Christianity.

Jesus Christ is a perfect Savior who saves to the uttermost those who come to God in Faith. God doesn't fail to save anyone who comes to Christ.
"All whom the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (John 6:37)

You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. You say Christ's death is of no more value. I beg your pardon. I say, 'No, my dear sir, it is you that are in error.' Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only might be saved, but are saved, must be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. I will never renounce the true atonement for the sake of it.

Matt


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-03-2010 12:48 PM
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New Heart
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Post: #20
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

proverbs 1: 8-9

My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:

9. For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.

leave everything from this earths twisted thinking and seek your mother from high,

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. galations 4:26

christ set us free already, and we should be free when he arrives.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,

we have been conned by preacher men on earth.

1 :10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.


Revelation 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

overcomming, is taking no part of the woman of purple and scarlet, who has mislead us.


10My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.

11If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause:

12Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

13We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil:

14Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse:

15My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path:

16For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.

17Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.

18And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives.

19So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.

20Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

21She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

22How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

stop following the strange woman, seek the free woman above

proverbs 2

9Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.

10When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;

11Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:

12To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;

13Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness;

14Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;

15Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths:

16To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words;

17Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God.

18For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead.

love,

new heart


O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.
09-03-2010 12:56 PM
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Mavos
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Post: #21
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

New Heart Wrote:
we have been conned by preacher men on earth.


"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: 'How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!'" (Romans 10:14-15)

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming." (Ephesians 4:11-14)

New Heart Wrote:
leave everything from this earths twisted thinking and seek your mother from high,

overcomming, is taking no part of the woman of purple and scarlet, who has mislead us.

stop following the strange woman, seek the free woman above


The only way we can do that, the only way we can do as you suggest, is to repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This is the Gospel: God, in love and mercy, sent His only Son, Jesus, who lived a perfect life, and died on the cross, was buried and raised again, to fulfill the law we had broken, to pay its penalty, to bring salvation to all who, by His grace, turn and trust in Him. Those who are born again, repent of their sins and trust in Christ, thereby entering into a new life: an eternal fellowship with God.

"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.' " - (Romans 1:16-17)


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-03-2010 01:19 PM
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Mavos
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Post: #22
RE: The Constant Sacrifice






"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-03-2010 02:33 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #23
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Mavos Wrote:

abe Wrote:
The Apostle Paul shows that a future son of destruction (fallen saints, the evil slave) will enter the temple and lift himself up.


abe Wrote:
The Apostle Paul made it clear that Satan would use a new "son of destruction" to undermine the Christian Temple.

The Apostle Paul calls that "son of destruction"; the man of lawlessness.

Yes, the Christian Temple established by the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ.


No, it wasn't "fallen saints" nor was it the "Christian Temple". He is the "man of lawlessness". By "man" I usually think, MAN. It isn't a group of people. The man of lawlessness was Titus Vespasian, (and by synecdoche, rest of the Roman Caesars). The "rebellion" being referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the Jewish Rebellion against Rome from A.D. 66-70. The temple referenced is the Jewish temple built by Herod the Great. Paul is essentially saying the same thing that his companion Luke records Jesus as saying, "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near." (Luke 21:20) Notice what the Jewish Matthew calles "'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel" the Gentile Luke interprets as "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near." The the abomination that causes desolation was the destruction of Jerusalem and it's temple in A.D. 70. That is what Paul is talking about here. He is saying that Jesus will not return yet because Jerusalem and it's temple haven't been destroyed.



Mavos,

Titus was not a "son of destruction.

Judas Iscariot was a "son of destruction".

Like it or not Judas was a saint.

You say a MAN cannot be a group of people.

You are wrong and I will prove it using scripture.


Satan himself cannot enter the temple and profane it. He HAS to use and deceive Christians who do have access to the temple in order to undermine the Christian Temple.

That Christian Temple is the bullseye for Satan's efforts. Satan is not aiming for false religion, that would be a waste of time. If you read 2nd Thessalonians more carefully you will see that his success is described as very powerful.

Satan would need to undermine and deceive a MAN who actually does have access to the temple in order to achieve success.

Does the bible describe a MAN who does have access to the Christian Temple?

Yes!

Ephesians 2:13-18
But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body (the man) to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, (the man) have the approach to the Father by one spirit. 19 Certainly, therefore, YOU (the man) are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU (the man) are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, 20 and YOU (the man) have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah. 22 In union with him YOU, too, (the man) are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit.


The notes in parentheses and bolded are added for emphasis so that it becomes more easily evident to the discerning reader that the entire scripture above is referring to one new MAN.

What you have said above is incorrect.

A MAN can indeed be a group of people according to the scriptures read in context.

This is the only other place in the bible that I can find reference of a MAN who can get into the Christian Temple.

What kind of men are these in the above scripture?

Answer: Saints.


The MAN of lawlessness.

Sons of destruction.



In Christ

abe


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09-03-2010 02:39 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #24
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

New Heart Wrote:

overcomming, is taking no part of the woman of purple and scarlet, who has mislead us.

10My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.

love,

new heart


New Heart,

It gives me comfort that some people can really see what is going on here.

Revelation 17
“Come, I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”


kings of the earth = saints


Revelation 17:15
And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.


mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues = Christianity!



In Christ

abe


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09-03-2010 02:49 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #25
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

ablebodiedman Wrote:

Satan himself cannot enter the temple and profane it. He HAS to use and deceive Christians who do have access to the temple in order to undermine the Christian Temple.


Is there any other scripture that describes men (Saints) who have access to the Christian Temple?


Yes!


Hebrews 10:19
Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water. 23 Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. 24 And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.


What does the Apostle Paul tell these same men who have access to the Christian Temple next:

Hebrew 10:26
For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.


Those in opposition!


2nd Thessalonians 2:3
Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god.


Hold one here, Paul is saying:


there is no longer any sacrifice


Daniel 11:31
and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant sacrifice.


If there is no longer any sacrifice the people associated with the Christian Temple are going to perish!


2nd Thessalonians 2:9
But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.


So much for the born again once saved always saved Organized Regions false doctrine!


In Christ

abe


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09-03-2010 04:12 PM
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Mavos
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Post: #26
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Abe Wrote:
Titus was not a "son of destruction.


I disagree.

Abe Wrote:
Judas Iscariot was a "son of destruction".

Like it or not Judas was a saint.


Let's see what Jesus says!

"Then Jesus replied, 'Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!' (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)" (John 6:70-71)

Hmm... seems to me he isn't a saint, but a devil. Kinda the exact opposite.

If he was a saint, he would not have betrayed him.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (1 John 2:19)


Quote:
You say a MAN cannot be a group of people.

You are wrong and I will prove it using scripture.


Satan himself cannot enter the temple and profane it. He HAS to use and deceive Christians who do have access to the temple in order to undermine the Christian Temple.

That Christian Temple is the bullseye for Satan's efforts. Satan is not aiming for false religion, that would be a waste of time. If you read 2nd Thessalonians more carefully you will see that his success is described as very powerful.

Satan would need to undermine and deceive a MAN who actually does have access to the temple in order to achieve success.

Does the bible describe a MAN who does have access to the Christian Temple?



Yes!

Ephesians 2:13-18
But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body (the man) to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, (the man) have the approach to the Father by one spirit. 19 Certainly, therefore, YOU (the man) are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU (the man) are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, 20 and YOU (the man) have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah. 22 In union with him YOU, too, (the man) are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit.


The notes in parentheses and bolded are added for emphasis so that it becomes more easily evident to the discerning reader that the entire scripture above is referring to one new man.

What you have said above is incorrect.

A MAN can indeed be a group of people according to the scriptures read in context.

This is the only other place in the bible that I can find reference of a MAN who can get into the Christian Temple.

What kind of men are these in the above scripture?

Answer: Saints.


"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit." (Ephesians 2:13-18 TNIV)

All this passage is teaching is that on the cross, Christ put to death the hostility between Israel and the Gentile nations. He has brought two parties into peaceful relationship with one another. The phrase translated, "new man" in verse 15, is translated correctly here in the TNIV as "new humanity". The word is anthropon, and here it is used to signify a new human race under the second Adam (Christ), in whose image the Christian is re-created.

Satan can't do what it is you are claiming he can do. He can't do this because we are kept by the power of God. Satan is a toothless lion. His authority is gone, and what power he has from humans that give him theirs is no match for Christ in us. We who are in Christ always triumph and have victory. He is powerless against the Church because we are protect by the power of God.

A true Christian can not fall away. All those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again. salvation is a matter of God's giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has began to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished.

God does not merely command us to begin to believe for a time, and then fall away. He requires us to continue to believe until the end, living lives of repentance and covenant faithfulness. Granted, He does not ask for a perfect faith, but He does ask for a real faith, one that produces real, lasting change. The saints will persevere, and continue in the faith, because God preserves and keeps us. God will keep us from falling—not one will be lost of all those who belong to the Son. True believers are not able to leave Christ, for Christ is at work within them.

I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. (Jer 32:40)

for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Rom 11:29)

Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6)

The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (2 Timothy 4:18)

But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All whom the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.(John 6:36-40,44)

You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:26-29)

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then can condemn? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:28-39)

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12-13)

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (1 John 2:19)

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.. (Jude 1:24-25 )

Saints can't fall because God keeps them from falling. Thus Satan can't do what it is you say he can.


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-03-2010 04:15 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #27
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Mavos Wrote:

Abe Wrote:
Titus was not a "son of destruction.


I disagree.

Abe Wrote:
Judas Iscariot was a "son of destruction".

Like it or not Judas was a saint.


Let's see what Jesus says!

"Then Jesus replied, 'Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!' (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)" (John 6:70-71)

Hmm... seems to me he isn't a saint, but a devil. Kinda the exact opposite.

If he was a saint, he would not have betrayed him.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (1 John 2:19)


Quote:
You say a MAN cannot be a group of people.

You are wrong and I will prove it using scripture.


Satan himself cannot enter the temple and profane it. He HAS to use and deceive Christians who do have access to the temple in order to undermine the Christian Temple.

That Christian Temple is the bullseye for Satan's efforts. Satan is not aiming for false religion, that would be a waste of time. If you read 2nd Thessalonians more carefully you will see that his success is described as very powerful.

Satan would need to undermine and deceive a MAN who actually does have access to the temple in order to achieve success.

Does the bible describe a MAN who does have access to the Christian Temple?



Yes!

Ephesians 2:13-18
But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body (the man) to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, (the man) have the approach to the Father by one spirit. 19 Certainly, therefore, YOU (the man) are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU (the man) are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, 20 and YOU (the man) have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah. 22 In union with him YOU, too, (the man) are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit.


The notes in parentheses and bolded are added for emphasis so that it becomes more easily evident to the discerning reader that the entire scripture above is referring to one new man.

What you have said above is incorrect.

A MAN can indeed be a group of people according to the scriptures read in context.

This is the only other place in the bible that I can find reference of a MAN who can get into the Christian Temple.

What kind of men are these in the above scripture?

Answer: Saints.


The phrase translated, "new man" in verse 15, is translated correctly here in the TNIV as "new humanity". The word is anthropon, and here it is used to signify a new human race under the second Adam (Christ), in whose image the Christian is re-created.



The Greek word used to describe "one new man" is ἄνθρωπος

The Greek word used to describe "man of lawlessness" is ἄνθρωπος

Strongs G444

The exact same word!


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
09-03-2010 04:56 PM
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Mavos
The pluckiest Christian on the board.


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Post: #28
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

ablebodiedman Wrote:
The Greek word used to describe "one new man" is ἄνθρωπος

The Greek word used to describe "man of lawlessness" is ἄνθρωπος

Strongs G444

The exact same word!


In Christ

abe


Doesn't matter.

Anybody who knows anything about Greek knows that context defines words. Just because it's the same word means nothing.

I'll teach you something they teach right away....

The meaning of a word is determined by it's use in a given context.


example 1:

I am afraid of bats.

I brought the bats to the park.


Same word, context changes the meaning.

example 2:

I lost the key to my house.

This is the key to happiness.

Gibraltar is the key to the Mediterranean.

I checked the key in the back of the text book.

He writes in a melancholy key.

That painting's colors are characterized by their low key.

I pressed the wrong key on my computer.

He played the music in the wrong key.


Same word, context changes the meaning.

Nobody who knows anything about Greek would agree with you here. I know, cause I am learning Greek.

Your argument is about as logical as saying...

"You see there are two verses. The first is, "I hit the ball with the bat". The second is, "The bat few into the cave." The "bat" in the second instance is talking about a winged rodent. So it is obvious that because the same word "bat" is used in the first sentence, the ball was hit by a winged rodent."

Or

"See, the same word, key, which is used in the phrase, 'I lost the key to my house', is also used in the phrase 'I pressed the wrong key on my computer', so it is obvious that 'a small metal instrument specially cut to fit into a lock and move its bolt' is meant in the phrase 'I pressed the wrong key on my computer.'"

Ridiculous.

Context shows that a specific man is talked about in 2 Thessalonians. (Which point is substantiated by Luke 21:20; Matthew 24:15; and Daniel 11:31)

Context in Ephesians shows that the new humanity of the faithful in Christ is being referred to. (Which point is substantiated by 1 Corinthians 15:45, 49; 2 Corinthians 5:17; and Galatians 6:15)

Matt


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-03-2010 05:00 PM
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Interpretum
This Space For Rent


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Post: #29
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
What you are suggesting here is that the daily sacrifices made in the Jewish temple were removed by the "little horn" in 70 ad.


Yes.

Quote:
Yet Daniel 8 says those same removed daily sacrifices will be restored 2300 evenings and mornings later! Sometime after 70ad.

Daniel 8:14
He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."


Well, it doesn't quite say that, does it? It says, ".. and the holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition".

The vision could be referring to the Temple, but I also think Jerusalem is a "holy place" (see Mat 24:15).

The question is asked of how long the VISION would be. Please note the vision included the activities of the two horned ram (Media and Persia), and the king of Greece (Alexander) breaking the ram.

If you count from 334BC, the time when Alexander the Great dominated, 2,300 years... you come to 1967AD... the time when Jerusalem was restored to Israel... it's "right condition".


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Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
09-03-2010 05:38 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #30
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Mavos Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:
The Greek word used to describe "one new man" is ἄνθρωπος

The Greek word used to describe "man of lawlessness" is ἄνθρωπος

Strongs G444

The exact same word!


In Christ

abe


Anybody who knows anything about Greek knows that context defines words. Just because it's the same word means nothing.

example 1:

I am afraid of bats.

I brought the bats to the park.


Same word, context changes the meaning.

example 2:

I lost the key to my house.

This is the key to happiness.

Gibraltar is the key to the Mediterranean.

I checked the key in the back of the text book.

He writes in a melancholy key.

That painting's colors are characterized by their low key.

I pressed the wrong key on my computer.

He played the music in the wrong key.


Same word, context changes the meaning.

Nobody who knows anything about Greek would agree with you here. I know, cause I am learning Greek.

I'll teach you something they teach right away....

The meaning of a word is determined by it's use in a given context.

Your argument is about as logical as saying...

"See, the same word, key, which is used in the phrase, 'I lost the key to my house', is also used in the phrase 'I pressed the wrong key on my computer', so it is obvious that 'a small metal instrument specially cut to fit into a lock and move its bolt' is meant in the phrase 'I pressed the wrong key on my computer.'"

Matt



Mavos,

Seems to me that the large majority of translations use the English word MAN in both circumstances.

If you want to pick and choose special translations to fit your once saved always saved doctrine then go ahead.

Please understand however, that I am convinced that what I say is true.

The consequence of that truth is enormous and far reaching.

I can see how Satan has undermined Christianity with a very unrighteous and completely successful deception.

If I can plainly see through his deception then I have conquered Satan.

In order for me to be saved I have an obligation to raise the alarm until Jesus Christ finally does return.


Matthew 24
43 “But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into 44 On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.
45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.
48 “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.


Jesus Christ was right all along!

The "house" has been broken into.

On a much different watch than anyone expected.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
09-03-2010 05:42 PM
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