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The Constant Sacrifice
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Mavos
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Post: #31
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

abe Wrote:
I can see how Satan has undermined Christianity with a very unrighteous and completely successful deception.

In order for me to be saved I have an obligation to raise the alarm until Jesus Christ finally does return.


No abe, that is not true.

If you are not in Christ, you are unable to see through any of Satan's tricks. You have to realize that you are completely bankrupt in God's eyes. Nothing you could ever do would be able to pay off the enormous debt you owe towards a thrice holy God. You can't trust in your own works. You can't trust in what you can do for God. In order for you to be saved you have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that his sacrifice is the only atonement for your sins. The basis of your salvation is the righteousness of Christ credited to your account upon placing your faith in Him. That is it. God regards the perfect life of Christ as yours, and regards your sinful life as Christs. As Paul implored others, so I implore you now, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." (Acts 16:31)

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-03-2010 05:50 PM
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littleone
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Post: #32
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Ablebodiedman,

Please consider what the "CAUSE" of desolation was for the Jewish nation back in Jesus' day.

"And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, saying: "If you, even you, had discerned in this day the things having to do with peace--but now they have been hid from your eyes. Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from ever side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected." - Luke 19: 41-44

Also

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and the stoner of those sent forth to her,--how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, 'Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name!'" - Matt 23:37-39

So, what was the "CAUSE" of the desolation of the city and of the temple which was finally carried out in 66-70AD ?? It was the "REJECTION" of Jesus Christ.

Now imagine if such a rejection also happened within Jehovah's spiritual temple arrangement? Wouldn't that be something that would surely cause desolation? A "disgusting thing" perhaps? Imagine if such ones were to cut off the "constant feature" of Christ's sacrifice by replacing Jesus with something else? What if they were to say that "THEY" are the way to Jehovah instead of Jesus Christ? What if they were to say that THEY are the "way, the truth and the life" instead of Jesus Christ? (John 14:6) Well... there would be problems, wouldn't there be? Hmm... Isn't that the sort of thing that the "man of lawlessness" does? But how is he finally done away with?

09-03-2010 08:34 PM
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Mavos
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Post: #33
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

littleone Wrote:
Ablebodiedman,

Please consider what the "CAUSE" of desolation was for the Jewish nation back in Jesus' day.

"And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, saying: "If you, even you, had discerned in this day the things having to do with peace--but now they have been hid from your eyes. Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from ever side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected." - Luke 19: 41-44

Also

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and the stoner of those sent forth to her,--how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, 'Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name!'" - Matt 23:37-39

So, what was the "CAUSE" of the desolation of the city and of the temple which was finally carried out in 66-70AD ?? It was the "REJECTION" of Jesus Christ.

Now imagine if such a rejection also happened within Jehovah's spiritual temple arrangement? Wouldn't that be something that would surely cause desolation? A "disgusting thing" perhaps? Imagine if such ones were to cut off the "constant feature" of Christ's sacrifice by replacing Jesus with something else? What if they were to say that "THEY" are the way to Jehovah instead of Jesus Christ? What if they were to say that THEY are the "way, the truth and the life" instead of Jesus Christ? (John 14:6) Well... there would be problems, wouldn't there be? Hmm... Isn't that the sort of thing that the "man of lawlessness" does? But how is he finally done away with?



Welcome littleone!

Thank you for your insights. What you suggest is indeed a plausible interpretation. There are many groups, even some that claim to be Christian like the Catholic Church, who commit abominations by offering to people something other than Jesus Christ and him crucified. The "Mary-olotry" of the Catholic Church along with the Papacy and the Mass are truly detestable things. May we remain loyal and keep our feality to the Lord.

Matt


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-03-2010 08:52 PM
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littleone
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Post: #34
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Then again, how can someone be apart of the true spiritual temple and reject Jesus Christ without sinning against the holy spirit? It is impossible.

Thus as the author of Hebrews says:

For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God. - Hebrew 10:26-31

But imagine the consequences of rejecting Jesus Christ for those who have received an "accurate knowledge" from being taught by the "holy spirit"! There is no doubt that Satan would indeed give special consideration to those leaving the holy covenant. Yet, I wouldn't want to be in these guy's shoes... nor would I want to be following them.

09-03-2010 09:11 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #35
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

littleone Wrote:
Ablebodiedman,

Please consider what the "CAUSE" of desolation was for the Jewish nation back in Jesus' day.

"And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, saying: "If you, even you, had discerned in this day the things having to do with peace--but now they have been hid from your eyes. Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from ever side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected." - Luke 19: 41-44

Also

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and the stoner of those sent forth to her,--how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, 'Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name!'" - Matt 23:37-39

So, what was the "CAUSE" of the desolation of the city and of the temple which was finally carried out in 66-70AD ?? It was the "REJECTION" of Jesus Christ.

Now imagine if such a rejection also happened within Jehovah's spiritual temple arrangement? Wouldn't that be something that would surely cause desolation? A "disgusting thing" perhaps? Imagine if such ones were to cut off the "constant feature" of Christ's sacrifice by replacing Jesus with something else? What if they were to say that "THEY" are the way to Jehovah instead of Jesus Christ? What if they were to say that THEY are the "way, the truth and the life" instead of Jesus Christ? (John 14:6) Well... there would be problems, wouldn't there be? Hmm... Isn't that the sort of thing that the "man of lawlessness" does? But how is he finally done away with?


littleone,

But how is he finally done away with?


2nd Thessalonians 2:8
Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.

will do away with by the spirit of his mouth


The spirit of his mouth!


John 16:12
“I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU.


How is he brought to nothing!

by the manifestation of his presence


Matthew 13:40
Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.



Matthew 24:50
the master of that slave (saints) will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.


Where does a righteous Christian want to be when that happens?

Matthew 24:15
“Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains.


Food at the proper time!


In Christ

abe


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09-03-2010 10:41 PM
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littleone
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Post: #36
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

ablebodiedman Wrote:

littleone,

But how is he finally done away with?


2nd Thessalonians 2:8
Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.

will do away with by the spirit of his mouth


The spirit of his mouth!


When referring to the ones mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11, the apostle Paul says an interesting thing in Chapter 12 verse 1. He says:

"So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus..." - Hebrews 12:1,2

He likens Jehovah's faithful ones of old (those mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11) as "clouds of witnesses". Interestingly, in Matthew 24:30, concerning Christ's return, the term "clouds" is used again:

"And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." - Matt 24:30

This time though, it refers to "clouds of heaven". Interesting huh? :)

If the ones spoken about in Hebrews 11, namely from righteous Abel to the prophets are considered "clouds of witnesses", "although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise, as God foresaw something better for us... (Hebrews 11: 39,40)". How much more so for those who receive something better, as also mentioned?

The lawless one is brought to nothing by the "spirit of his mouth". Wouldn't it be a grand privilege to be used by Jesus Christ for this very purpose? To expose the lawless one?

09-03-2010 11:25 PM
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Mavos
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Post: #37
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

[sarcasm]Abe, perhaps when Jesus says, "those in Judea should flee to the mountains" he meant that those in Judea should flee to the mountains. Just a thought I had. I figured Judea meant Judea and not the church. And I thought mountains meant mountains not spiritual isolation. But what do I know, I only thoght that context actually meant something. Silly me! I should have know better. I should have realized that I hadn't heard the "true" understanding from Prophet Abe. I'll know better for next time![/sarcasm]

Abe, everyone here knows that this happened in a.d. 66, after the retreat of the initial Roman attack, the Christians living in Jerusalem fled to Pela in the mountains. That passage was fulfilled. Your interpretation is irrational. If you compare Matthew 24 with Luke 21 it is clear this is talking about 70 a.d. It takes the worst form of twisting to get what you just claimed was in this text.

Abe, let me tell you something else: prophecy and end times stuff may be interesting, but it is really not important at all. Antichrist this, tribulation that. Temple this, and apostasy that. Who cares!! It doesn't matter.

What really matters is the Gospel. What really matters is our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. (Titus 2:13) What really matters is progressing in personal holiness by the aid if the Spirit and being conformed to Christ's image. What really matters is a personal and intimate relationship with the Father. What really matters is sharing this good news with others. What really matters is helping the poor, sick, orphans, and widows. What really matters is being part of a loving community of other Christians where you can pray for one another and support one another to remain faithful. What really matters is waiting for Christ's return, not concerned about all the particulars because you are content to know that your Beloved is coming and He will take care of you because he promised never to leave or forsake you.

You're so focused on your prophetic attacks on the Church that you have missed the real goal and aim of the scriputres, the glory of Jesus Christ.
Matt


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-03-2010 11:36 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #38
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

That was an excellent post in that it sums up what is really important Mavos. The church I go to are preparing for their cold weather shelter for the destitute and homeless this coming winter. This is how I know that God is with them, that Satan hasn't fooled them. Many churches of many denominations do such and more and there are many who promote evil in the name of God. However Jesus said:

Mat 16:18 I tell you that you are Peter, and it is on this rock that I will build my church, and the powers of hell will not conquer it.

Abe you might listen to Mavos because he is rapidly becoming a wise Christian.

09-04-2010 12:10 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #39
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Mavos Wrote:
[sarcasm]Abe, perhaps when Jesus says, "those in Judea should flee to the mountains" he meant that those in Judea should flee to the mountains. Just a thought I had. I figured Judea meant Judea and not the church. And I thought mountains meant mountains not spiritual isolation. But what do I know, I only thoght that context actually meant something. Silly me! I should have know better. I should have realized that I hadn't heard the "true" understanding from Prophet Abe. I'll know better for next time![/sarcasm]


Sarcasm from organized religion? Surprise surprise.

So far my expectations have not been failed.


Isaiah 33
14 The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless:
"Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"
15 He who walks righteously
and speaks what is right,
who rejects gain from extortion
and keeps his hand from accepting bribes,
who stops his ears against plots of murder
and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil-
16 this is the man who will dwell on the heights,
whose refuge will be the mountain fortress.
His bread will be supplied,
and water will not fail him.


Quote:
Abe, everyone here knows that this happened in a.d. 66, after the retreat of the initial Roman attack, the Christians living in Jerusalem fled to Pela in the mountains. That passage was fulfilled. Your interpretation is irrational. If you compare Matthew 24 with Luke 21 it is clear this is talking about 70 a.d. It takes the worst form of twisting to get what you just claimed was in this text.



Everyone knows?

Jesus Christ was not expecting his Christian Saints to stop the Romans from destroying the Jewish Temple. The house that had already been abandoned by Jesus Christ himself.

Jesus Christ was talking about a completely different house that would be broken into on a different watch.

That is one thing that everyone should know!

Matthew 24:43
“But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into.


I would expect organized religion to do everything possible to stop their laity from knowing this one thing because it would put them out of business.

I would expect organized religion to convince their laity that this one thing is really not important and doesn't matter!

Yes, even though the Lord Jesus Christ himself said Christians should know this one thing.

Quote:
Abe, let me tell you something else: prophecy and end times stuff may be interesting, but it is really not important at all. Antichrist this, tribulation that. Temple this, and apostasy that. Who cares!! It doesn't matter.



Quote:
What really matters is the Gospel. What really matters is our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. (Titus 2:13) What really matters is progressing in personal holiness by the aid if the Spirit and being conformed to Christ's image. What really matters is a personal and intimate relationship with the Father. What really matters is sharing this good news with others. What really matters is helping the poor, sick, orphans, and widows. What really matters is being part of a loving community of other Christians where you can pray for one another and support one another to remain faithful. What really matters is waiting for Christ's return, not concerned about all the particulars because you are content to know that your Beloved is coming and He will take care of you because he promised never to leave or forsake you.


It seems like organized religion has a firm grasp of Christianity 101.

I have experienced organized religion for myself.

Its all lip service designed to fill the collection plates.


In Christ

abe


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09-04-2010 12:19 PM
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Willa
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Post: #40
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Now, now - let's not allow this to get personal for heaven's sake! I didn't see anything wrong with what Matt said in that post, Able - his sarcasm was tame and what he said about the Gospel of Christ was all true. You know I don't agree with you either, about the verses you're using to support your view of 1)the corrupted temple being Jehovah's Witnesses' and the fear-induction you put on our Lord's return.

But, we can tackle disagreements on the Scriptures by using the Scriptures, can't we? Of course we can.

I think, Able, that you're taking a few verses out of their intended context, and applying them to the wtbts at the present time.

Matthew 24:36-44 [NASB] "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Be ready for his coming! That's what he is saying - be on the alert and good-to-go at any time. Jesus does not want us to dread his coming - it IS something for all believers to look forward to and prepare for.

Again at Mat. 25:13 Jesus reinterates, not a timeline, but the fact that no one knows when he returns: "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour. So that makes 4 times during this particular session of his teachings that he underscores with much emphasis that no one knows when, so BE READY. I'm also convinced that our preparations for his return are all of what Matt wrote in his post - taking in and sharing the spiritual strength of faith we've been blessed with - the fruits of our faith. So then, we are not to be like the householder who didn't take precautions now and was later sorry. As Christians, an impenetrable fortress is our faith in God and His Christ! Jesus used illustrations to makes the most excellent impressions in our minds! :love:

Well, anyway - my :2cents: for what it's worth, lol.

Please be as nice to each other - as much as you can muster!:readthis:

:peace:


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
09-04-2010 06:39 PM
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Steadfast
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Post: #41
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Dear Friends,

Maybe the son of perdition isn't exclusively in the Kingdom Hall. Paul showed CLEARLY in 2 Thess 2 that this son of perdition was ALREADY working in his day:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.

This son of destruction will be revealed when Jesus Christ returns:

2Th 2:8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nothing by the brightness of His presence.

Christ has done no judging yet. This lawless one sits in ALL of Christianity. Study the congregations of Revelation and you will see that Christ is still encouraging repentance, and it will continue until his return.

Love,

Sis A


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09-04-2010 07:44 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #42
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Willa Wrote:
Be ready for his coming! That's what he is saying - be on the alert and good-to-go at any time. Jesus does not want us to dread his coming - it IS something for all believers to look forward to and prepare for.

Again at Mat. 25:13 Jesus reinterates, not a timeline, but the fact that no one knows when he returns: "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.


Please be as nice to each other - as much as you can muster!:readthis:

:peace:


Willa,

Jesus Christ did say we would not know the exact day or the hour however, he did give us enough to know the season.

The Apostle Paul further helped us by pointing out that Satan would undermine the Christian Temple with an unrighteous deception that would cause many Christians to perish.

The Apostle Paul did not give us the day or the hour either however, he did tell us what situation to expect immediately before Jesus Christ does return.

I believe there are three categories of people here and only one of these are "Ready".

1/ Victims of the deception.

2/ Perpetrators of the deception.

3/ People who will have seen through that deception and therefore conquered Satan. They are ready!

I am convinced that those who are "ready" have an obligation to help the victims.

A loving thing to do for a true Christian. A good deed.

A very difficult task however, because the victims or the perpetrators are very hard to identify and the victims will not want to admit they are victims.

For this reason I do not make personal attacks on the person but on the idea being sold as truth.

I do this because I believe we are in the precarious position foretold by Daniel:

Daniel 11:32
But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively. 33 And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days. 34 But when they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness. 35 And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end


I do treat the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society differently however, because I am convinced they are perpetrators. Jesus Christ himself did not hold back from calling people "offspring off vipers".

On the other hand I believe that many hundreds of thousands of individual Jehovah's Witnesses are victims.

Being "ready" depends a great deal on what a Christian believes is the truth.


The Apostle Paul assures me of this immediately after he described Satan's unrighteous deception.


2nd Thessalonians 2
13 However, we are obligated to thank God always for YOU, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected YOU from [the] beginning for salvation by sanctifying YOU with spirit and by YOUR faith in the truth. 14 To this very destiny he called YOU through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So, then, brothers, stand firm and maintain YOUR hold on the traditions that YOU were taught, whether it was through a verbal message or through a letter of ours. 16 Moreover, may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and gave everlasting comfort and good hope by means of undeserved kindness, 17 comfort YOUR hearts and make YOU firm in every good deed and word.



In Christ

abe


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09-04-2010 08:52 PM
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littleone
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Post: #43
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

For those of the school of thought that says that the "disgusting thing" or "abomination of desolation" was the Roman soldiers in 66-70 AD that surrounded and finally desecrated Jerusalem, I have one question that I would like for you to ponder...

Was the Roman armies truly a "disgusting thing" in God's eyes? Were the Roman armies truly an "abomination of desolation"?

Please consider what Jesus Chris himself said:

"And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, saying: "If you, even you, had discerned in this day the things having to do with peace--but now they have been hid from your eyes. Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from ever side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected." - Luke 19: 41-44

Were the Roman armies truly a "disgusting thing" in God's eyes? Or instead, did God use them to pay back vengeance upon wicked and rebellious nation? Jesus Christ himself gave the reason for the Roman armies arrival upon Jerusalem right here in this scripture. Is God so unrighteous that he would use the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem, yet call them a "disgusting thing" at the same time? I don't think so.

Please, let's not also forget from the historical accounts why the Roman armies came to Jerusalem. It was to put down a rebellion. The Jewish zealots at the time were out of control.

Were the Roman armies a "disgusting thing" or "abomination" in any way, shape, or form? Not at all. Instead, they were used as God's hand of vengeance upon a wicked and rebellious nation.

Therefore, they do not fit the Antitype of Daniel's prophecy, nor of the prophecy that Jesus himself spoke of in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

09-05-2010 08:23 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #44
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

littleone Wrote:
For those of the school of thought that says that the "disgusting thing" or "abomination of desolation" was the Roman soldiers in 66-70 AD that surrounded and finally desecrated Jerusalem, I have one question that I would like for you to ponder...

Was the Roman armies truly a "disgusting thing" in God's eyes? Were the Roman armies truly an "abomination of desolation"?

Please consider what Jesus Chris himself said:

"And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, saying: "If you, even you, had discerned in this day the things having to do with peace--but now they have been hid from your eyes. Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from ever side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected." - Luke 19: 41-44

Were the Roman armies truly a "disgusting thing" in God's eyes? Or instead, did God use them to pay back vengeance upon wicked and rebellious nation? Jesus Christ himself gave the reason for the Roman armies arrival upon Jerusalem right here in this scripture. Is God so unrighteous that he would use the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem, yet call them a "disgusting thing" at the same time? I don't think so.

Please, let's not also forget from the historical accounts why the Roman armies came to Jerusalem. It was to put down a rebellion. The Jewish zealots at the time were out of control.

Were the Roman armies a "disgusting thing" or "abomination" in any way, shape, or form? Not at all. Instead, they were used as God's hand of vengeance upon a wicked and rebellious nation.

Therefore, they do not fit the Antitype of Daniel's prophecy, nor of the prophecy that Jesus himself spoke of in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.


littleone,

Yes, some people can see it with clarity.

Jesus Christ foretold the inevitable and inescapable judgment upon Jerusalem in the scripture you quoted above.

Would he then expect his few Apostles to stop that same inevitability, an entire Roman army!

Matthew 24:43
“But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into.

Of course not!

Jesus Christ must have been talking about a different house at a different time.

If Christians read the first post in this thread they will see just how disgusting the "disgusting thing" really is.

A Roman Army is nothing compared to what I said in the first post.

What I have said in the first post is disgusting, an appalling sacrilege, an abomination!

I hope you get comfort from realizing that you are not the only one that can clearly see this. There are some others scattered all around the world who understand as you do.

Jesus Christ explained that many Christians would not be able to see and also how these same Christians would perceive themselves.


Revelation 3
Because you say: “I am rich and have acquired riches and do not need anything at all,” but you do not know you are miserable and pitiable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire that you may become rich, and white outer garments that you may become dressed and that the shame of your nakedness may not become manifested, and eyesalve to rub in your eyes that you may see.


It takes a great deal of humility to do the things that Jesus Christ explained above.

To admit that we are a victim of Satan's unrighteous deception.


‘All those for whom I have affection I reprove and discipline. Therefore be zealous and repent


In Christ

abe


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Post: #45
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Hi littleone

littleone Wrote:
Was the Roman armies truly a "disgusting thing" in God's eyes? Were the Roman armies truly an "abomination of desolation"?


Thank you for sharing your point of view. Still, I'd say the Roman armies were connected to the disgusting thing causing desolation, for several reasons:

(a) The Christians fled in 66AD. Why did they do so, unless they recognized the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, and then withdrawing, as their signal to flee to the mountains and not enter into Jerusalem.

(b) The Roman armies carried with them eagle standards called ensigns, which they treated as gods. Thus, they were literally bringing their gods into a holy place, which was disgusting in God's eyes.

To be fair, the Jews had been zealously against idolatry after returning from Babylon. They defeated Antiochus' attempts to defile their Temple in the 160's BC, and they also resisted Caesar Caligula who ordered a statue of himself to be erected in the Temple, in the early 40's AD. The Jews were willing to die rather than have this statue erected, but perhaps by divine providence, Caligula was assassinated before his order could be implemented. (There is a fascinating story behind this, which implies God's hand in those affairs.)

( c) The Roman armies were also the agents bringing desolation to Jerusalem and the Temple - that is why it is described as "the abomination that causes desolation" (NIV).

(d) That the "disgusting thing" has God's permission to destroy the holy place and city, does not mean God approves of the wild beast itself. In Revelation, we see the "wild beast" given authority to act against God's people for 42 months... (which I believe was fulfilled 70-73AD)... but this does not mean God approved of its persecution of the holy ones.

Quote:
Therefore, they do not fit the Antitype of Daniel's prophecy, nor of the prophecy that Jesus himself spoke of in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.


Well, this is the problem... people trying to create an "antitype". I do not believe Jesus intended for their to be an antitype. The WTS conditioned us to view prophecies as having multiple fulfillments (even though just about all of their antitypes were wrong), and others such as Robert King perpetuated this view, but by putting their own "spin" on prophecy.

Why do we have this need to put words in Jesus' mouth? He said the prophecy was particularly for those in Judea... why do we feel this need to rip the prophecy out of context and apply it to "our day" all the time?




It was a prophecy meant to be fulfilled only once


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