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The Constant Sacrifice
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Seraphim
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Post: #76
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

littleone Wrote:

Seraphim Wrote:
Yet you would teach that the power of the cross gets terminated.

Am I missing something here? I don't recall anybody saying such thing.

However, let me present a scenario. I will premise it with the following scripture:

"Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for YOU yourselves do not go in, neither do YOU permit those on their way in to go in." - Matt 23:13

OK, now for the scenario:

Suppose I come on to a website. I start preaching various things. Lo and behold, I end up acquiring an audience that thinks I'm a prophet... God's ONLY prophet alive on earth (ok ok.. far fetched... but just go with it. :D)

Now, all of these people become my followers. They'll believe anything I say. I start to teach them that the only way they can have a relationship with God is through my new website. Basically, they're told that if they want life... then they have to join my new website and become a member of it. Furthermore, they must constantly praise my website before all men. Since I post there, the website is to be considered infallible and sacred. Yup... its God's chosen website. Also, I tell them that Christ's body and blood of the covenant does not apply to them. Instead, I'm the only one that applies to. For them, they get something less. Sure, they'll still get life. Matter of fact, come Armageddon, everyone else is gonna be destroyed by God... but since they belong to my website, they'll be safe. However, all of the scriptures that apply to the "Congregation of God" and "spiritual Israel" only apply to me. For them, they simply have to listen to what I tell them to gain life. For them, I tell them that in order for them to have life, they must go to every other site and recruit new members to my site. Furthermore, they're required to spend at least 5 hours a week on my site... with a minimum of 3 replies to each discussed topic that I start. Oh... and no coca-cola.... that's a big no-no, since I prefer pepsi. If they're caught drinking coca-cola, then I have my "ban button", and they're a goner come Armageddon.:coffeeread: I tell them if they listen to me and do what I want... they'll get life.

Now, wouldn't you say that as long as they continue to believe me that I have "invalidated" Christ's sacrifice for them? Much the same way that the Pharisees have shut up the kingdom of the heavens for those who follow them? Since they're putting faith in me instead of Christ, wouldn't you agree that as long as they remain in such a state (believing my drivel) that I have removed the provisions of the "holy covenant" from them? Matter of fact, Jesus said concerning the Pharisees:

“Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one YOU make him a subject for Ge·hen´na twice as much so as yourselves." - Matt 23:15

Therefore, I ask, in such manner isn't it also possible for the words in Daniel concerning the removal of the "constant sacrifice" or "constant feature" to also be applied in such way? For what happens when those of the true house that apostatize? Ones that were fellow partakers of the holy spirit? What happens if they start following somebody or something else instead of Jesus Christ? Does Christ's sacrifice still cover them? And if not... then could it be said those that led them into apostasy by means of smooth words have effectively removed Christ's sacrifice from them?


I think the point is that God will always have followers in whom the sacrifice applies, that will never stop, and there will never be a period in which it could be said that the ransom is terminated. Such followers will always congregate together, and in organized way, whether in times of persecution or in peace, and that will never stop. Sure there are times when the institutional infrastructure of the church will go corrupt, and the weeds will appear to be in ascendancy, and other times the wheat will take back control of the institutional elements and steer the church back into the direction of good. This see saw motion seems to occur in all different denominations of Christianity for the most part, with a few elements of the extreme cult variety that only last for a short time and little less cult like groups that last longer. All groups evolve and devolve if they last long enough.

No group of Christians can get together to do Gods will on the earth if they do not organize and work together. Corruption is the inevitable price of such organization, but that is no argument for it to be avoided. Such corruption in its many different guises if apposed by the wheat who have not run away to some wilderness can, have and do often steer back the institutional infrastructure back into the direction of the kingdom. Even Jesus chose 12 apostles knowing that one would betray him. That was no negative argument for the kings organization of followers into doing Gods will. Jesus did not preach that running away from corruption into the wilderness was the way to go. This board far from being a wilderness is in fact an example of Christians getting together and inevitably leads to them physically getting together in many cases in order to more affectively do Gods will. Its remit as a board is in trying to heal the damage that one element of the institutional church has inflicted. This is not so such that benefit can stay isolated from other Christians and commune with God on the beach or mountain. It is so they reconnect with Jesus and follow him again, healed. That means coming back from the wilderness into the kingdom and promised land. The promised land is in many ways the kingdom, and the kingdom is in many ways organization. One cant have a king and his domain without it which is what the word kingdom means.

The wheat and weeds are together as they were with the original 12 apostles but they didn't run away from organization from Jesus. The body of Christ made up Jews and Gentiles in Paul's time didn't run away from congregation just because the man of lawlessness was already at work. What Abe seems to be preaching is that all Christians, if they are good, should leave all organizational aspects of Christianity. This is not the case. If the divine call ever goes out for such to occur it is not now, and to do so before the harvest, and even more importantly before God himself commands it would be disobedience to the example of Jesus. We are not in the harvest period if indeed that period is a literal period, because many even now are coming into a relationship with Jesus through organized works with its faith. Feed the hungry and free the oppressed knowing that the cross is available freely to everyone who wants it. Fight the abuses of the church and free its captives and oppressed, not so that they can go into the wilderness but so they can get together and do still more good.

Mat 16:18 I tell you that you are Peter, and it is on this rock that I will build my church, and the powers of hell will not conquer it.

How does strong define the word church above?

G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

Doesn't sound like wondering individuals on their own in a wilderness without organizational backup to me. One of the essential lessons from Jesus is that we need each other. Even Jesus needed his disciples. Not even the Christ went at it alone. His first act was to get followers and to organize and teach them.

09-08-2010 09:51 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #77
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

littleone Wrote:
Now, wouldn't you say that as long as they continue to believe me that I have "invalidated" Christ's sacrifice for them? Much the same way that the Pharisees have shut up the kingdom of the heavens for those who follow them? Since they're putting faith in me instead of Christ, wouldn't you agree that as long as they remain in such a state (believing my drivel) that I have removed the provisions of the "holy covenant" from them? Matter of fact, Jesus said concerning the Pharisees:


littleone,

In order to perpetrate the perfect deception you would have to make your followers believe that by following you they are really following and developing a relationship Jesus Christ and are getting to know God.

The double whammy deception.


Hosea 8
"Blow the trumpet! Sound the alarm! Vultures are circling over God's people Who have broken my covenant and defied my revelation. Predictably, Israel cries out, 'My God! We know you!' But they don't act like it. Israel will have nothing to do with what's good, and now the enemy is after them.


Isaiah 66
5 Hear the word of the LORD,
you who tremble at his word:
"Your brothers who hate you,
and exclude you because of my name, have said,
'Let the LORD be glorified,
that we may see your joy!'

Yet they will be put to shame.



In Christ

abe


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09-08-2010 09:57 AM
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Seraphim
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Post: #78
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

One of Satan's favorite methods is the old divide and destroy tack-tick. Divide the sheep off from the rest and he is easier to destroy. Leaving Christians who gather together in any kind of organized way is not what Jesus taught. There are churches out there who do not substitute themselves for Jesus yet are frightened to teach, but without dogmatism.

09-08-2010 10:10 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #79
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Jeremiah 30
23 Look! A windstorm of Jehovah, rage itself, has gone forth, an onward-sweeping tempest. Upon the head of the wicked ones it will whirl. 24 The burning anger of Jehovah will not turn back until he will have executed and until he will have carried out the ideas of his heart. In the final part of the days YOU people will give YOUR consideration to it.

1 “At that time,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “I shall become God to all the families of Israel; and as for them, they will become my people.”
2 This is what Jehovah has said: “The people made up of survivors from the sword found favor in the wilderness, when Israel was walking to get his repose.” 3 From far away Jehovah himself appeared to me, [saying:] “And with a love to time indefinite I have loved you. That is why I have drawn you with loving-kindness. 4 Yet shall I rebuild you and you will actually be rebuilt, O virgin of Israel. You will yet deck yourself with your tambourines and actually go forth in the dance of those who are laughing. 5 You will yet plant vineyards in the mountains of Sa·mar´i·a. The planters will certainly plant and start to use [them]. 6 For there exists a day when the lookouts in the mountainous region of E´phra·im will actually call out, ‘Rise up, O men, and let us go up to Zion, to Jehovah our God.’”



In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
09-08-2010 10:11 AM
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Seraphim
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Post: #80
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Mat 16:18 I tell you that you are Peter, and it is on this rock that I will build my church, and the powers of hell will not conquer it.


How does strong define the word church above?

G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

09-08-2010 10:14 AM
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Mavos
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Post: #81
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 NIV)

Paul is here responding to claims that the Lord had already come. But he says that the Lord can't return until two things happen

1) The apostasy/rebellion
2) The Man of Lawlessness is revealed

Paul may have some of the current events of his day in the back of his mind. Gaius Caligula, thinking he was a god, attempted to put a statue of himself in the Jewish Temple. Nero also claimed to be a god and viciously persecuted the Church. However, I think these are examples of what the final Antichrist will be like. They are types and shadows, not the fulfillment, but the first in a series of these guys.

There is also Old Testament background for this prophecy. The underlined are references to the Antichrist making himself God. The italics refer to the rebellion or apostasy.

"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him. Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time. The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all." (Daniel 11:31-37 NIV)

"Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground." (Daniel 8:9-12 NIV)

"The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time." (Daniel 7:23-25 NIV)

Daniel 11 and the abomination of desolation, the little horns of Daniel 7 and 8, are also clearly in Paul's mind. They are not completely fulfilled in Antiochus or in A.D. 70. Daniel says they are tied to the end of the age.

This prophecy is a continuing reality. The Antichrist, the Beast, manifests itself repeatedly, but it has been suppressed by the rise of the Church and the preaching of the Gospel. It is already present, but being restrained, and we are going to see this throughout the course of history, but it's final manifestation is for the time of the end. There will be a final future Antichrist sometime in the future when the restraint is lifted. This is an endtimes prophecy. We see a little bit in the capture of the temple by Antiochus. We see a little bit of this in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 by the Romans, and in the blasphemies of the anti-christian Catholic Church. But this passage from Paul is eschatalogical, this is tied to the end. This prophecy is an on going one, not entirely or strictly future, but it is fulfilled in the future. There are many antichrists. It is an ever present threat, even though these antichrists are not the final Antichrist, they are still as dangerous.

Notice how these passages from Revelation are similar to 2 Thessalonians. The underlined are references to the Antichrist making himself God. The italics refer to the rebellion or apostasy.

"And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, 'Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?' The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." (Revelation 13:1-8 NIV)

Note, the part that says, "He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven." That is the Abomination that causes Desolation.

"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
(Revelation 20:7-10 NIV)

Satan cannot defeat the church by deceit alone. The preaching of the Gospel prevents him from doing this. However, he creates a monster in his image, a false Christ. The first thing I want to stress is that the Man of Lawlessness is an individual not an institution. Also, notice the cause of the apostasy is the revelation of the Man of Lawlessness.

In Revelation 20, the deceiving of the nations is a Satan act, perhaps related to the apostasy. The the city is the Church. The time of destruction is when all this happens, which is when Paul places the destruction of the Antichrist.

Israel can't be the temple of God, because Israel is already apostate. An apostate can't commit apostasy again, he's already done the deed. This is a reference to the Christians, to the Church. Every other use of the word "Temple" by Paul is a reference to the Church. The temple is the mystical body of Christ.

The apostasy is a religious crisis in the church. Because of the false miracles, one of which Revelation 13 describes as a death and resurrection, he proclaims himself to be God. Even though he is a fraud and imposer, many "Christians" will fall away and follow him, which Revelation 20 describes as the nations revolting and gathering to attack the Church. It will move into all-out rebellion against God when the Antichrist appears. I think the 2 Thessalonians passage clearly indicates that a final crisis preceding the Second Coming will involve a climactic outbreak of a pattern of wickedness that already exists earlier to a lesser degree (verses 6-8).

Someone who "sits" is a metaphor for taking authority over. So here is a depiction of the Antichrist taking authority over, and rules over the Church. This desecrates the temple because the one taking authority over the Church is a Satanic deception, a blasphemer who would steal the worship of the Church. He uses this authority to proclaim himself God. Don't forget, I think that this is an individual, not an institution.

There is something that is restraining the final manifestation of Antichrist, and that is the preaching of the Gospel. The angel in Revelation 20, I think is a reference to the Gospel. Satan is unable to deceive the nations until he is let loose.

I do not believe that the Man of Lawlessness, the Antichrist has been revealed yet. However, I recognize that the "the secret power of lawlessness is already at work". There are many Antichrists in this world today, and their number seems to be increasing. The Church has become infected with Health and Wealthy teachings. The pastors and clergy are lining their pockets with the money they get. The true Gospel of God has been watered down to a man-centered self-help system. Postmodernism, Liberalism, and New Age-ism are all infecting the congregations. The number of churches that are still preaching the Gospel and following the Lord are becoming fewer and fewer. Many more churches and organizations are pushing for an ecumenical and inter-faith talks with the Catholic Church. Compromise is everywhere. The life style of your average Christian Church goer is almost indistinguishable from that of an unbeliever. Not to mention the amount of false doctrine and heresy being taught. When the Antichrist is revealed, those who are still faithful to our Lord and his Gospel may be forced underground. The "secret power of lawlessness is already at work."

The Antichrist being destroyed by the coming of Christ at the day of Judgment is exactly what Revelation 20 describes by destroying the revolt with fire.

How are we to gain victory over this foe?

"The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God .... The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach." (Revelation 12:6, 14 NIV)

I think that the going out to the wilderness illustration is apt. However, this isn't a wasteland, but a place of spiritual refuge. It isn't about spiritual isolation. It isn't about leaving the church. It's a setting in which the remnant of God's people are utterly dependent on him but are protected from the dragon's rage. This place "the place prepared for her." It is the place where God would "take care of" her. This is about what God does. He is our refuge and strength. He is where we run to. He will take care of us. This wilderness is symbolic of a complete reliance upon the God to sustain us. David in the Psalms is a great example of this type of reliance.

"I love you, O LORD, my strength. The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. I call to the LORD, who is worthy of praise, and I am saved from my enemies. The cords of death entangled me; the torrents of destruction overwhelmed me. The cords of the grave coiled around me; the snares of death confronted me. In my distress I called to the LORD; I cried to my God for help. From his temple he heard my voice; " (Psalm 18:1-6 NIV)

Israel after the exodus from Egypt wandered in the desert. This desert gave them relief from the idolatry and oppression of Egypt. He took care of them and provided for them. He fought their battles and they were safe for he was with them. This is a very fitting type. The wilderness is all about God's care and provision for his remnant church. What is being talked about by the running to the wilderness is stated clearly elsewhere without the symbolism. It's about his salvation for us through the blood of his Son, and our faith and reliance on him.

"They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death."
(Revelation 12:11 NIV)

The blood of Christ doesn't become defiled or desecrated. Those apostates who rebel by believing the lies and worshiping the Beast and it's image, have separated themselves from the blood of Christ by turning to the dragon's false Christ. Satan knows he could not defile the blood of Christ, so he does the next best thing, get people to trust and worship in his Antichrist instead. But those born of God will overcome!

"For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God."
(1 John 5:3-5 NIV)

Those who have a true and living faith and relationship with the Lord Jesus will never capitulate to the Antichrist. These are the ones who are sealed with the Holy Spirit, whose names are written the in the Lamb's Book. They place their faith in Christ, and trust that his shed blood and righteousness is their only ground for victory, escape, and salvation.


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
09-08-2010 11:28 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #82
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Mavos,

If you read Matthew 24 the most important admonishments for the end of the age are all about "getting out".

Fleeing!

Not looking back like Lots wife.

Not returning to the house.

Even the disciples asked where to go.

Jesus Christ said that the dead body would be where the vultures are circling.

He comes like swift lightning to you! Whenever you see crowds gathering, think of carrion vultures circling, moving in, hovering over a rotting carcass. You can be quite sure that it's not the living Son of Man pulling in those crowds.

Get away from the crowds who have been deceived.


One of the very last admonishments in the bible from Jesus Christ echoes the same sentiments:

Revelation 18
4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.



Its all about getting out and away.

In Revelation 18 it does not even say where to go.

It just says to get out.


At no other historical time have God's people had to get out of Babylon however, there is an old testament scripture which tells them to do this:

Isaiah 48
20 Go forth, YOU people, out of Babylon! Run away from the Chal·de´ans. Tell forth even with the sound of a joyful cry, cause this to be heard. Make it to go forth to the extremity of the earth. Say: “Jehovah has repurchased his servant Jacob. 21 And they did not get thirsty when he was making them walk even through devastated places. Water out of the rock he caused to flow forth for them, and he proceeded to split a rock that the water might stream forth.”

If you can find a historical fulfillment of God's people running away from Babylon then please let me know.

So what happens when you get out?

“Jehovah has repurchased his servant Jacob."


You think the man of lawlessness has not yet been revealed however, their is plenty of convincing evidence that his revealing occurred years ago. That evidence can be found on this forum and all over the Internet.

You can ignore it if you want to however, thats what Jesus Christ said most Christians would do;

Matthew 24
37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.


Being in the wilderness is an entrance to hope.

Where God's people will be refined before going up to the mountain, the promised land.

See this thread

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=6153


In Christ

abe


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The Unforgivable Sin
09-08-2010 03:28 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #83
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Dear Mavos -- I'm sitting here, 5.55am, on my last break at work, and I just read your post, and while there might one or two things I slightly disagree with (minor things really), I couldn't help but be completely floored with the strength and conviction in your post.....you carry a mighty sword, my bro....may our Lord continue to bless you and ALL who are fighting the fine fight of the faith!

May LOVE be with you!

Your friend and brother -- Beau! :D:D:D


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


09-08-2010 05:01 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #84
RE: The Constant Sacrifice

Made a video in regard to this topic.



[Admin. note: Video removed for commercial content.]


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