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knowledge of good and evil Gen 2:9
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digging
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Post: #16
RE: knowledge of good and evil Gen 2:9

Thank-you and welcome!

Please feel free to make replies. I know I have kind of jumped around with this topic, but as I've been thinking/studying I'm seeing it playing out in more than one direction. I wonder IF it's because both phyical things and spiritual things were happening at the same time when they took from that tree. ( same pattern two things from one event)

Here's a scripture I was thinking of, Revelation 22:13

"I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the first and the last,
the beginning and the end."

So when I read this I can see how it can be understood in two ways.
For example with the 'first and the last' he was the first one to die as faithful and the last one needed to die as faithful. 'The beginning and the end' the beginning of the new life and the end of the old, all happening from one moment. Simular to what I said about the good and bad coming from one action. I'm sure there are other ways to see these vs's too.

Digging

02-01-2011 02:10 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #17
RE: knowledge of good and evil Gen 2:9

digging Wrote:
When I think about it I ask myself why do I sin???? Why do any of us sin??? Is it not that we think the thing, what ever it is, is good from our perspective at that moment of sinning??? So good and evil happening at the same time...


Digging


Digging,

The only way we can sin is if we really do know the difference between good and evil.

It is only then that we can be held accountable for our actions.

A wild animal cannot really be held accountable because they do not know the difference between good and evil.

They can never sin!

We can train a dog to be a man killer or we can train it to lead a blind person around.

Neither the killer dog or the blind seeing dog knows the difference between good or evil, and so cannot sin.

Eating from the tree of Knowledge gives us an accountability which we were not meant to have.

Having knowledge we can now sin!

A predicament which I think the bible helps us a great deal with.

All we have to do is obey Jesus Christ.

Who explained in simple terms the way we would be measured in regard to sin.

Should be no excuses.



In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

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02-06-2011 09:30 PM
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veritas re
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Post: #18
RE: knowledge of good and evil Gen 2:9

My present theory is that the tree of knowledge of good and bad was a real tree - but not a special tree – and was allegorical or representative of some greater concept that Adam needed to learn about and understand. Interestingly, and I’ll save this for a later post, but a possibility comes out of the details of this theory: It may be part of the plan that Adam and Eve receive a resurrection.

An allegorical tree?
If you were God and you decided to create a being with the capacity to make its own decisions – even decisions that went directly against your express will as God – and then they went against you - what would you do about it? Hmmm, is this something like the oldie but goodie “Well if God is almighty, can he create a rock that’s too big for him to move?” Anyway, the theory here is that God decided that for the long-term interests of his purposes he would need to teach his free moral agents some of the basic lessons in such a manner they would never forget it.

Lesson #1, and there is just one lesson in this class, answers the question: “What happens if free moral agents rebel against God?” It’s said that ‘experience is a hard teacher, but a good teacher.’ Personal experience is effective in that persons have to live through some event or experience and personally see and taste and smell and feel the event first hand. You can write a book that captures verbally the event but there is no way to capture completely that which one lives through.

Create a test that doesn’t look like a test
So the idea here is, create a “test” – call it something like Truth or Consequences 101. The key part of this test is that no one knows there’s a “test” going on! So it’s like one of those tests on white rats where in this case everyone is in the “control” group. (At this time in history, everyone is Adam and Eve.) . The test goes something like this: single out a certain tree from amongst the hundreds of trees of that SAME species of tree, and tell the man that’s God’s tree, and that he can’t eat from it. “Why?”, asked Adam. Answered God, “In the day you eat of that tree, you will positively die.”

Did God Know?
Did God know Adam would TEST the ‘test’? Let’s say that God did know that Adam would test the test. Why would a God of love do something like that – set someone up for failure? Doesn’t God say he won’t allow tests that are beyond the ability of someone to pass, that if not removing the test he would provide a way to endure the test? Or what if God knew for sure that someone would fail, at some point in history?

I think that God in his infinite wisdom knew the future in terms not of who would rebel but that someone someday would and how that would wind up over thousands of years – and – more importantly - how it would be fixed and forever resolved - in the minds of the free moral agents involved in a case closed manner. As it turned out Adam and Eve wound up being targeted by an outside instigator as to the idea that God was hiding something from them and or that they would benefit if they went contrary to the dictates of God. But it could have been anyone or anytime, for example the first rebellion could have happened a few thousand years later and the consequences starting later than instead of when they did.

Look ahead and address the problem before it happens
At any rate the idea here is God knew someone would rebel and rather than sit around waiting God implemented a test using a simple tree as an allegorical representation that it’s God that has the right and the ability to relegate certain boundaries on mankind. Why? Because he’s God that’s why, but, he being God knows that simply telling persons something and expecting them to obey based purely on power alone won’t generate what God is looking for – which is persons who want to do his will because they KNOW it’s the best possible idea around. So the purpose of the test was never to kill anyone, but to setup a real life case history lasting thousands of years that no one would ever be able to forget took place, and whose lesson of history clearly and plainly proved (I believe mathematically) that rebellion from God – of itself – is a causal factor formula for disaster.



v r


"...and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free."
02-08-2011 02:35 AM
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digging
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Post: #19
RE: knowledge of good and evil Gen 2:9

Dear VR,

I want to say thank-you for your reply, a few things you have said ring very true with me also. 1st I am soooo glad you can see that point about the event that happened with Adam and Eve could have happened 1000's of years later also, I see that too (and later might share more on that point.) 2ndly I agree about what you have said about the tree just being a plain old tree it's what happened in their heart and mind that was the problem, and then what they did with thier bodies on acting upon thier idea.
I have at times wondered IF God was simply telling them the truth about the way the universe was build and the way he was able to create everlasting life. All of it is dependent on him, rests on him. He is the source of life BUT they needed to trust that as the truth that it was....like gravity.
Soooo here is something else to consider.....what if they had rejected the temptation, having listened to the temptation, even felt it and perhaps even considered it for a moment....but then turned away from it, what would that have ment?

I think that is what Jesus did in the 'garden' right before his death when he was praying and said 'not my will but yours' take place...
I think Jesus ate from the 'tree of life' at that moment and thus he was resurrected.

Now here is a funny thing I always believed there was two different trees in the garden . One tree of life and one tree of knowledge of good and evil...side by side and it would seem they had NOT eaten of the tree of life because it said that's why they were put out of the garden to prevent them from eating of it.
When Jesus was being so stressed that he sweat tears of blood, was he not being tempted to put the will of his flesh and self over Gods will? Like eating from the tree of knowledge, but rather he rejected that in his heart and thus partook spiritually from the tree of life instead. Automatically by rejecting the one you partake of the other? So when they were taking from the one tree they were rejecting the other at the same moment like choosing between the two trees and if they had rejected the temptation they would have been choosing the tree of life and would have then received everlasting life instead of death. Well that is a theory I have for now.

Digging

02-08-2011 03:19 AM
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veritas re
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Post: #20
RE: knowledge of good and evil Gen 2:9

digging Wrote:
…what if they had rejected the temptation, having listened to the temptation, even felt it and perhaps even considered it for a moment....but then turned away from it, what would that have meant?


I believe that the word “temptation” is functionally and conceptually synonymous with the word “consideration” – in that these thinking processes run along similar lines. “Adam was tempted to eat the fruit” is similar to “Adam considered eating the fruit” and is describing a thought process that of itself was neither good nor bad. At this point there was no sin that took place, only information processing. People perform similar thought processes everyday: “The traffic light turned orange and I was tempted to hit the gas because I was in a hurry to get to work.” So you hit the gas, but the guy in the oncoming lane runs his orange light too on a left turn and you get in a wreck. “The lady at the checkout counter miscounted my change and gave me five dollars too much and I kept the money because I was broke and could really use the extra money.” As you are walking out the lady runs and gets you to report the error and the look in her eyes says “Yeah, you knew you got five dollars too much.” – and you know she’s right.

Thought processes of themselves are designed to logically or emotionally or spiritually or in combination entertain the various possibilities that exist around a given set of circumstances. Adam had a choice that he evidently didn’t think about – go ask YHWH about the serpent's claims. It’s difficult to understand why Adam did not do this, even apparently in the face of knowing the serpent’s claims were a lie. The popular thought is that Adam and Eve were perfect and therefore made some sort of perfect – deliberate – act that was and is irrevocable. But this theory does not seem to hold true since Eve was deceived but Adam evidently was not. So apparently the first man and woman, while not under the condemnation of sin and death as subsequent humankind are, were not immune to making mistakes in judgment. Eve was misled, Adam was not, but I have the sense that something clouded his mind – and that something was inexperience.

We can try to think of some situation in our lives where we made an incredibly dumb decision. Looking back, we always are able to see how the certain chain of events went down that we should have seen coming but did not. In retrospect we almost can’t figure out how we could have been so blind as to make such a bad choice, and the next time a similar situation arises we say “last time this same situation came up, I really blew it. Let’s look at this in the context of what happened last time”. Was this the situation for Adam and Eve? Did they make errors in judgment, that while earning them the stated death penalty, was a death penalty to Sheol along with the rest of mankind?


v r


"...and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free."
02-08-2011 10:33 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #21
RE: knowledge of good and evil Gen 2:9

vr and digging,

If you look around at what is happening in the world we frequently see people making decisions which show a blatant disregard for what Jesus Christ said and yet they still seem to get immediate benefit from their tyrannical decision.

We occasionally see people making entirely benevolent decisions and suffering an immediate consequence.

I think time plays a critical role.

I do agree that we are in the exact same predicament as Adam and Eve right now in every decision we make.

The lives we live now are like a test or examination.

Many lives being lived without seeing the results.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
02-08-2011 12:22 PM
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digging
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Post: #22
RE: knowledge of good and evil Gen 2:9

Good day everyone!

I can see we have some simular ideas VR. Good point about the consideration! I agree also with your thought that they were not 'perfect' yet, I believe this for three reasons. 1st they were naked, not clothed with the 'robe of rightousness' 2ndly they had not eaten of the tree of life. 3rd I also agree they will be resurrected, when Adam was to die God said from dust you are to dust you shall return. Well that's where persons are reclaimed from in the resurrection the soil/dust/earth, he was not put into the 'lake of fire'. Jesus ransom buys them back from the earth. I believe they were the first to hope for the Christ because the first promise of his coming was given to them, and what Eve said of her first Child. Who taught their children about YHWH??

I find it amazing how many layers of thought and points are connected to such a seemly small part of the bible.

Digging

Hi to you also Ab ;)

02-08-2011 01:46 PM
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veritas re
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Post: #23
RE: knowledge of good and evil Gen 2:9

digging Wrote:
I find it amazing how many layers of thought and points are connected to such a seemly small part of the bible.


Me too…



The setup in Eden has some other aspects to it that in my mind would lend weight to God knowing there would one day be a challenge to his mode of doing things.

Forever is a long time
Going back to the earlier points that all of creation – except for the free moral agents - function according to a preprogrammed script that makes it impossible for going against the creator’s plans, it seems obvious to me that God must have anticipated a rebellion taking place at some point in history.

When we consider how people think – what motivates them – it becomes obvious why the world has the conflict it does: because of the base ideological framework of how persons think things ought to run. An example can be seen in how the elites of the world operate in considering it foolishness to elevate the common man to their level. Why would one want to elevate a "lower class" of person, unqualified to influence world events in a meaningful way? This makes no sense to the elitists and in their view will only cause more problems because the lower classes simply are not qualified at the same level as the so called elite classes. So the elites stack the deck economically and educationally and socially to ensure their dominance.

So it’s all about one’s politics – and everyone knows that for every hundred people there are a hundred notions as to how things ought to run. Guess what? This is free moral agency in action – it is no surprise that free moral agents will do exactly what they were made to do, and that is to think independently using whatever their own personal ideas and experience dictates to them. So was God asking for trouble when he made free moral agents? Absolutely he was – but I believe he knew exactly what was coming and this is seen in how he arranged the tree test in Eden.

God’s “politics”: Knowing the end from the beginning
This in my mind must be the reason why God setup the strange test in Eden, an endeavor for teaching persons how to benefit themselves. This test was never about authority because God doesn’t need to prove that his authority cannot be questioned and this can be easily proven. And God does not need to prove anything to anybody as if his own ego depended on that for self validation. So what was God trying to accomplish? I think God was providing a way for his free moral agents to be able to prove to themselves that his ways not only are the best, but that material deviance from the framework or outline of his ways can mathematically be shown to fail.

In a simpler example of how this process works we can look at when a parent tells the child to not touch the hot burner on the stove. The parent goes on about “hurt” and “danger” and all that, but does the child really understand any of these concepts? The parent wants to protect the child from harm, but at the same time knows that the child’s training needs to be such that eventually it can make its own decisions as a free moral agent because there is no way the parent can be around 24 x 7 to ensure the child succeeds.

Does the child touch the hot burner and get burned? Most likely. Does the child EVER DO THAT AGAIN? Most likely not. Was the parent neglectful in not making sure the child could never touch the hot burner? Or was the parent wise enough to know that the child not only would need to test this claim out, but that such a test is a natural part of becoming a free moral agent that could succeed long term – on its own - using a controlled test that the free moral agent would have the ability to learn from without permanent consequences?

The choice
The test in Eden proved what happens when disregarding the “don’t touch the hot burner” instruction despite being told not to, and the thousands of years of nightmare conditions on this earth will never be forgotten. Some have the idea that someday there will be no remembrance of the hurt of the past, but I take exception to that because those that forget the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them. I know this is case history I’m never going to want to forget and it’s my view that the case history in Eden will be comprehensively studied as part of the normal educational process along with reading writing and arithmetic so that this lesson of history will never be forgotten by mankind. God in his infinite wisdom created a real world case where free moral agents could effectively choose to go against him - such that would show that only the truly wise would survive – and those free moral agents who wanted to keep "touching the hot burner" - would have no rational basis for so doing and could either be removed or go around with burned hands until they figured it out...



v r


"...and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free."
02-13-2011 08:24 AM
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Lauderdale
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Post: #24
RE: knowledge of good and evil Gen 2:9

Hello all

I found this and it is a good post but it is on another site so i am going to post the link instead and not copyright, hope you all enjoy it!

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/sh...od-AND-Bad


Your sis Laudedale

03-02-2011 11:18 PM
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