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Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?
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BruisedReed
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Post: #16
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Hi symbiosis ... :hibye:

What I think about the 'great crowd' and the asking 'who' they are might be a wee bit similar to Jehovah asking Satan where he had been knowing full well where he had been and what he had been up to maybe ...?

But back to the 'great crowd' ... IMHO I personally don't think the 'great crowd' as witnesses think of it is in existence yet ...

They don't appear on the scene until the scripture says AFTER the great tribulation is finished ...

Thus in this sense they are 'different' ... because there 'salvation' came later ... maybe like those last minute workers in the field ...?

I also think that just as heaven have different 'angels' with 'different 'duties' but live in the same place ... 'heaven' ... but are all SPIRIT creatures ... that the 144,000 a perfect group no matter if that is the precise number ... have a specific job because of the type of DEATH they had ... for it says these ones were SLAUGHTERED ... or MARTYRED ... just as our lord was ... and the 12 apostles were ...

The great crowd too are blessed with life, duties, and responsibilities along with those who made the decision to serve God and follow Christ BEFORE the great tribulation occurred ...

Sorry for the quickness of my response and perhaps it doens't make sense but I am rushing to finish supper and didn't want you to think I was ignoring your comment ...

'Heaven' ... well I think we really don't know all there is to know about it yet ... and even Jesus said if we can't understand the things of an earthly nature how can we even hope to undertand heavenly things ... ;) or the gist anywa ...

Gotta go ... potatoes are almost done ...

Luv BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:


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02-01-2011 06:31 PM
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Totaldismay
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Post: #17
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Also like the

Ninevites.

jonah was in the sea and swallowed up only to speak of repentance to those peoples.

God side stepped his freewill in this case and forced him. Or maybe a hard push??? :funnyface:

They were given a direct choice.

Life or Death it seems to me.

I wonder if during the tribulation people will see clearly the difference between Good and Evil, and maybe risk their own lives in pitty to give a glass of water to a thirsty one?

Just some wandering thoughts. about a crowd of peoples that emerge from something that seems to be called a great tribulation.
only to have a GREAT crowd become clean.

Seems as thou thru fire we are always cleaned.

Peace

PS
Heaven,, their doesn't seem to be just ONE

02-01-2011 08:21 PM
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BruisedReed
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Post: #18
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

No dear brother TD I don't think there is just 'one' either ... ;)

And I don't think Paul did either!

2 Corinthians 12:2 ...


2 I know a man in union with Christ who, fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know; God knows—was caught away as such to the third heaven.

Talk soon ... Luv BR :sheepy::bouncyhearts:


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02-01-2011 08:35 PM
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e-magine
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Post: #19
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Hi symbiosis!!
i thought your point about the 2 different washings is a good one.
and I thought that BR did a fine job of elaborating on it.
Jesus washes us, and we wash ourselves by accepting his washing.
Yes, our scarlet sins will be made white by him Isa 1:18!

BR also explained how the GC is "different: in that they are Christians that come thru the G.Tribulation. Other rightous ones will receive the first resurection. But they are all Christians.

I don't think 144000 is a real number; more like a designation. The 12000 out of each tribe is symbolic also. Maybe in the Millennial Reign there will be some who are more "priestly" then others, but not as a class.

On Heaven; Heaven is the state God and the Good Spirits dwell. There is no place in our Universe we could point to for it. When Jesus "went there", to prepare a place for us, it is a figure of speech. He "prepared a place" by offering to the Father his sacrafice. That doesn't mean that our "place" will be in Heaven like Angles, but we will be transformed into a "New Creation" none the less! :thumbup:


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He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
02-01-2011 08:43 PM
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man hu
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Post: #20
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

gogh Wrote:
re: "...great crowd” are seen standing before the throne of God himself." (as per Watchtower article)

This may be completely unimportant, but.....regarding Revelation 7:15, seems most translations (I have referenced) do not indicate (bodily) position of "standing".

greek interlinear states: "they are in view of the throne"

(NWT) "That is why they are before the throne of God;"

(ASV) "Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them."

(ISV) "That is why: "They are in front of the throne of God and worship him night and day in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them."

If bodily position, wherever indicated in scripture, is of any significance, ie: bowing, kneeling, standing etc....scripture (most translations) seem to not indicate position of "standing", that's all, over and out, for what it's worth, etc...

.02,
in
gogh


You are right Gogh neither standing, kneeling nor any other position is being suggested here.

En-opion is a compound of two words.
En means in.
In is the preposition, not one of the other prepositions such as pro before or pros toward.
Opion means boundaries, frontiers.

enopia pl. are the walls fronting a person entering an inner room.

So here we get the idea of entering into the presence or inner sanctum of someone, in other words face to face.
The question is how large is this 'inner sanctum'?

Well the word enopion is not rare. There are maybe 200 verses containing enopion in the Septuagint and about 40 - 50 verses in the New Testament. They are often translated 'in the sight of'.
Galations 1:20
2 Corinthians 8:21
2 Corinthians 4:2
Romans 3:20 translated as 'before' NWT
Acts 27:35 'before' NWT
Acts 19:19 " "
Luke 8:47 is an example of how two totally different words are translated as 'before'.


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02-02-2011 11:36 AM
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man hu
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Post: #21
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

I know Seraphim did interesting research on the word 'Holy' and that it means being separate, kept apart, so can refer to anyone or thing. I can't find his research though.


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02-02-2011 12:26 PM
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BruisedReed
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Post: #22
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Hi Vicky ... :hibye::hug:

Boy am I sick with this stupid cold ... worse day yet ... but I couldn't think of a better way to ride it out then sitting here with ya'll instead of laying in bed. :sick:

Thanks for the 'lesson' ... I love the fact that you are pretty good with the 'grammar' aspect ... that is what being a part of a 'body' is about isn't it!!

As to 'holy' ... and I think that is a good aspect to consider in the 'priest' for the GB say that ONLY the 'anointed' are going to be the 'priests' since ONLY they are now considered to be 'HOLY' ...

Here is one article they say it in ... ironically dear Vicky they speak about 'being set apart' ... ;) as you already said ...

*** it-1 p. 1132 Holy Ones ***


Christian Holy Ones.

Persons brought into relationship with God by means of the new covenant are sanctified, cleansed, and set apart for God’s exclusive service by “the blood of the covenant,” the shed blood of Jesus Christ. (Heb 10:29; 13:20) They are thereby constituted “holy ones” (“saints” in KJ and some other versions). Consequently, they do not become “holy ones,” or “saints,” by decree of a man or an organization, but by God, who brings them into covenant relationship with himself through the blood of Jesus Christ. The term “holy ones” applies to all those thus brought into union and joint heirship with Christ, not to a mere few considered to have exceptional holiness. It is also applied in the Bible to them from the beginning of their sanctified course on earth, not being deferred until after their death. Peter says they must be holy because God is holy. (1Pe 1:15, 16; Le 11:44) All the spiritual brothers of Christ in the congregations are frequently called “holy ones.”—Ac 9:13; 26:10; Ro 1:7; 12:13; 2Co 1:1; 13:13.


You know when I read this little snippet a few things came to mind ... :huh:

In essence I think it is saying that these 'holy ones' who are in the 'new covenant' because of the ransom of the blood of Christ and thus are considered to be joint heirs with Christ and his 'spiritual brothers' have 'exceptional holiness' have been SET APART TO DO AN EXCLUSIVE SERVICE ...

hmmmm :scratchhead:

What does 'exclusive' mean ...

not divided or shared with others;
excluding much or all; especially all but a particular group or minority;
single(a): not divided among or brought to bear on more than one object or objective
exclusively - entirely: without any others being included or involved;


Sooooo, now I ask myself ... if the anointed who are ALREADY 'holy as Jehovah is holy' ... (hmmmmm perfect yet?) are the ONLY ones in this 'exclusive service' to be giving out food and teaching the 'domestics' and such then how do they get around that the 'other sheep' do this work as well ... since they are not in their 'group'?

For it isn't only 'they' who are used to print the magazines and books ... it is other brothers as well of the 'earthly' hope ... it is others of the earthly hope who do the majority of the preaching work and looking after the congregations ...

It seems to me that when it suits their purpose they 'twist' the 'rules' and 'meanings' to try to keep THEIR 'exclusive' while INCLUDING the 'other sheep' as 'filling in for them' so to speak as the job is too big for them ...

Which is why I kind of asked the question about 'fill-in priests' ... were there individuals back in Israel who 'filled in' for the 'priests' since there were so many Israelites to 'serve' or 'minister to' and 'teach' ...?

Now back to the 'holy' thing ...

Wasn't it the ENTIRE nation of Israel that was considered 'holy' to Jehovah a 'special possession' ...?

And if they hadn't been disobedient wouldn't they ALL have been considered to be then as part of the ...

1 Peter 2:9 ...


“But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation [a consecrated nation; a dedicated nation], a people for special possession.’”

(notice the additonal wording that this article ADDED to the scripture ... for clarification no doubt;))

consecrated


solemnly dedicated to or set apart for a high purpose;
made or declared or believed to be holy; devoted to a deity or some religious ceremony or use;
Consecration is the solemn dedication to a special purpose or service, usually religious.
consecrate - ordain: appoint to a clerical posts; "he was ordained in the Church"
consecrate - give: give entirely to a specific person, activity, or cause;
consecrate - vow: dedicate to a deity by a vow
consecrate - render holy by means of religious rites
consecration - a solemn commitment of your life or your time to some cherished purpose (to a service or a goal); "his consecration to study"
consecration - (religion) sanctification of something by setting it apart (usually with religious rites) as dedicated to God;


So, that led me to thinking about 'us' ... of the 'other sheep' ...

Does not the 'anointed' tell us that 'WE' have to 'dedicate' ourselves to God ... that 'WE' have to give him exclusive devotion and give or comment our whole lives and time in his service ... do 'WE' not have to get baptized to show that 'dedication' ...

When you come to think of it ... we do EVERYTHING that the anointed does EXCEPT 'one' thing ... and to me one of the MOST IMPORTANT things ... and I think ya'll can guess what that is ... ;)

So, then would't we be a part of that 'holy nation' then ... a part of Christ as the 'body of Christ' as a member of HIS congregation ...?

When Moses spoke to the NATION of Israel ... and that would have been the entire nation ... men, women and children ... what did Jehovah God say to tell them ...?

Exodus 19:6 ...

And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel.”

Maybe part of the idea of being a 'priest' ... or 'minister' is what this scriptures says ...?

Ephesians 4:11-12 ...

11 And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12 with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ,


So, wouldn't this show that ALL those in the congregation were considered 'holy ones' ... and were a 'part of the body of Christ' ... and since this SAME WORK is still being carried out today it would have the SAME PURPOSE and COMMISSION and thus the SAME RESULTS ...?

The 'body of Christ' is the CONGREGTION of 'holy ones' or those who 'dedicate' (consecrate) themselves to God and Christ ... and so just as the NATION of ISRAELITES ... who numbered in the MILLIONS ... were a 'holy nation' ... so today ... as SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES ... the 'congregaton' or 'body of Christ' will number in the MILLIONS ... and then eventually ... be a 'great crowd' that no man can number! :grouphug::cheer::thumbsup:

And just as in the 'congregation of the holy ones' back in the apostles time, there were DIFFERENT ASSIGNMENTS of responsibilty ... for MINISTERING to their fellow brothers for 'building the body up' ...

I like the meaning of the Greek word for 'edifiying' or 'building up' ... it brings to mind a lovely analogy ...

G3619 οἰκοδομή

oikodomē oy-kod-om-ay'


Feminine (abstraction) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure; figuratively confirmation: - building, edify (-ication, -ing).

G3624 οἶκος

oikos oy'-kos


Of uncertain affinity; a dwelling (more or less extensive, literally or figuratively); by implication a family (more or less related, literally or figuratively): - home, house (-hold), temple.

G1430 δῶμα

dōma do'-mah


From δέμο demō (to build); properly an edifice, that is, (specifically) a roof: - housetop.

So, we are 'under construction' so to speak aren't we ... a 'building' ... a 'family' that belongs to God and Christ ... our 'head' or 'roof' is Christ himself (my thought) and we can dwell in security in the 'house' of a 'related' and thus 'united' family of God ... a 'spiritual holy nation of dedicated people' miniistering to others to whom we hope will 'join or unite' themselves to us!:hug::grouphug::heartbeat:

Well, I'll stop for now ... :quiet:

I have more thoughts but better take a break ... hopefully I have written this logically ... :funnyface:

Luv as always ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

PS ... hopefully Brian will remember where he wrote his stuff and put up the link ... I think I wrote something as well ... but can't remember I know I have lots and lots of research on it ... :P;):siskiss::whistle:


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02-02-2011 02:17 PM
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symbiosis
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Post: #23
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

BruisedReed Wrote:
Hi symbiosis ... :hibye:

What I think about the 'great crowd' and the asking 'who' they are might be a wee bit similar to Jehovah asking Satan where he had been knowing full well where he had been and what he had been up to maybe ...?

But back to the 'great crowd' ... IMHO I personally don't think the 'great crowd' as witnesses think of it is in existence yet ...

They don't appear on the scene until the scripture says AFTER the great tribulation is finished ...

Thus in this sense they are 'different' ... because there 'salvation' came later ... maybe like those last minute workers in the field ...?

I also think that just as heaven have different 'angels' with 'different 'duties' but live in the same place ... 'heaven' ... but are all SPIRIT creatures ... that the 144,000 a perfect group no matter if that is the precise number ... have a specific job because of the type of DEATH they had ... for it says these ones were SLAUGHTERED ... or MARTYRED ... just as our lord was ... and the 12 apostles were ...

The great crowd too are blessed with life, duties, and responsibilities along with those who made the decision to serve God and follow Christ BEFORE the great tribulation occurred ...

Sorry for the quickness of my response and perhaps it doens't make sense but I am rushing to finish supper and didn't want you to think I was ignoring your comment ...

'Heaven' ... well I think we really don't know all there is to know about it yet ... and even Jesus said if we can't understand the things of an earthly nature how can we even hope to undertand heavenly things ... ;) or the gist anywa ...

Gotta go ... potatoes are almost done ...

Luv BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:


Hi BR

that is basically how i see it the body with many parts and many functions placed in their relative positions by Christ.

we then can apply the fullness of the words of Christ to all who believe in him, there is no division, just different parts of the body with a different purposes, but all part of Christ.

its means we can all call "ABBA" from our hearts

Sym
:thumbup:

02-02-2011 02:50 PM
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COMankind
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Post: #24
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Edifying points here for me. Esp the point about they might be different roles, but that doesn't mean different classes. That word, "classes" is thrown about so much in the organization.

I gave a part once having to do with the 144K and Great Crowd and I brought up a bowl of fruit with me. I said some were apples, some were pears, but they were all children of God..that one group wasn't necessarily more important to God than another (I had serious doubts at that time, and tried to be as true to myself as I could) - the comments from the congregation were interesting.

BR - I wrote a few personal articles in my studies, one included some of this subject. If you're interested, i'd be happy to share.


philia, COMankind

"The tent of God is with mankind" - Rev 21:3

02-03-2011 01:18 AM
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man hu
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Post: #25
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Thought this snippet is interesting:-

Quote:
Abraham is called, as we read in Genesis 14:13 "An Hebrew" Oxford dictionary: ‘Hebrew’ = ‘One of the Hebrew people’ ‘Hebrew’ = A descendent of Eber (Strongs 5680 Ibriy (Ib-ree) from 5677) 'Eber'= ‘Set apart' (or, Ay-ber) from 5674 (Abar) = 'A descendent of Shem'


As Paul pointed out to the Galatians (non Jews), we are all descendants of Abraham through our Abraham like faith in Jesus, making us descendants of Jesus, the chief seed of Abraham.

So we are all decendants of ‘Set apart'


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02-03-2011 01:20 PM
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BruisedReed
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Post: #26
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Hi COmankind ...:hibye:

Share away ...! :thumbsup:

If I may add just one more thought on this ... :giverose:

As I said I had a 'lot' of information ... it is just trying to break it down and then write it as concisely and hopefully truly as I can in trying to 'make sure' of things ... and I haven't even included the stuff I have from the last 6 years or so ... some in my scribblers and some in word docs ... ;)

I had mentioned about the 'new song' ...

I had wondered if these two things might be the 'same' as many scriptures have prophetic meaning for the future both in Jesus' time and ours today and yet for the further future

So, often we have heard about the 'new song' that ONLY the 'anointed' will sing in heaven ... you know the one ..

Revelation 14:1-3 ...

14 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

In light of those who will 'sing this new song' I thought these scriptures to be interesting ...

Psalm 132:12-18 ...

12 If your sons will keep my covenant And my reminders that I shall teach them, Their sons also forever Will sit upon your throne.” 13 For Jehovah has chosen Zion; He has longed for it as a dwelling for himself: 14 “This is my resting-place forever; Here I shall dwell, for I have longed for it. 15 Its provisions I shall bless without fail. Its poor ones I shall satisfy with bread. 16 And its priests I shall clothe with salvation; And its loyal ones will without fail cry out joyfully. 17 There I shall cause the horn of David to grow. I have set in order a lamp for my anointed one. 18 His enemies I shall clothe with shame; But upon him his diadem will flourish.”

When you type in 'new song' in the cdrom we see a lot of scriptures from the OT (Hebrew Scriptures) come up as the 'people of the earth' singing this 'new song' ... and that 'Jehovah puts it in their mouth to sing' ...

Interesting I find in light of what Revelation says about ONLY the 144,000 singing this song as they were 'BOUGHT from the EARTH' ... which in itself is something else to about ...

Just because they are 'bought' or 'redeemed' from the earth ... doesn't mean or say they were TAKEN from the earth ... just that they were taken to 'New Jerusalem' or 'Mount Zion' ... but that is another discussion perhaps ... :whistle:

Back to the new song thing ... :giverose:

Notice this scripture in Psalm 149:1 ...

(NWT) Praise Jah, YOU people! Sing to Jehovah a new song, His praise in the congregation of loyal ones.

I thought I would like to add some other translations here in case the point might be missed by the NWT's use of the word 'loyal ones' here ...


(ASV) Praise ye Jehovah. Sing unto Jehovah a new song, And his praise in the assembly of the saints.

(ESV) Praise the LORD! Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise in the assembly of the godly!

(GNB) Praise the LORD! Sing a new song to the LORD; praise him in the assembly of his faithful people!

Now what is the Hebrew meaning for the word 'godly', 'saints' 'faithful' or 'loyal' ...

H2623 חסיד

châsı̂yd khaw-seed'


From H2616; properly kind, that is, (religiously) pious (a saint): - godly (man), good, holy (one), merciful, saint, [un-] godly.

H2616 חסד

châsad khaw-sad'


A primitive root; properly perhaps to bow (the neck only (compare H2603) in courtesy to an equal), that is, to be kind; also (by euphemism (compare H1288), but rarely) to reprove: - shew self merciful, put to shame.

H1288 בּרך

bârak baw-rak'


A primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason): - X abundantly, X altogether, X at all, blaspheme, bless, congratulate, curse, X greatly, X indeed, kneel (down), praise, salute, X still, thank.


So, who do ONLY the society say that have the 'right' and 'entitlement' to use the expression 'saint' or 'holy one' ...? Is it not whom they consider to be only of the 144,000 ...?

And yet here it says this assembly or congregation of holy ones would sing this song ...

But then one could ask is this 'song' sung by people on the 'earth' ...? Isn't Revelation speaking of 'heaven'?

Well notice what it says in Psalm 96:1 ...

Sing to Jehovah a new song. Sing to Jehovah, all [YOU people of] the earth.

So, it would appear that a 'new song' is being sung by 'people of the earth' ...!!:rose::whistle:

If you notice the reference scriptures for 'new song' you will see that there are many that connect the 'new song' in Revelation to the Hebrew Scriptures ... and that this 'song' is sung by those on earth ...

So how did the 'society' FDS get around that one ...? :confused::shocked:

Well, they simply said ... and have changed this idea a few times as well ... this ...


*** w88 12/15 p. 20 “Fear God and Give Him Glory” ***

Fear God—Why?


4 For the present, enough of those beasts! In refreshing contrast, the ninth vision focuses on the Lamb. He stands on Mount Zion, with the 144,000 that he buys as firstfruits from among mankind. Though some of these still serve on earth, in a spiritual sense all 144,000 have “approached a Mount Zion and . . . heavenly Jerusalem.” (Hebrews 12:22) Appropriately, the 24 elders are also seen here before God’s throne, for they picture the same anointed group from a different standpoint—as already raised and installed as kings and priests. The 144,000 are singing “a new song.” It stems from their unique experience in being bought from the earth to become Kingdom heirs. The great crowd also “sing to Jehovah a new song,” but this differs in that they sing in prospect of attaining to everlasting life in the earthly realm of the Kingdom.—Revelation 7:9; 14:1-5; Psalm 96:1-10; Matthew 25:31-34.

Well if you ask me this explanation doesn't doesn't 'ring true' nor make sense at all ... :huh::shocked::confused:

And WHAT scripture is it that says the 'great crowd sing a 'new song' but it is DIFFERENT from the one sung by the 144,000 ...? Is this not 'adding' to the scriptures unless someone knows that scripture?

Ah but here is another interesting article I found that would seem to maybe contradict the one above ...? :shocked::confused:

*** w73 10/15 pp. 622-623 Cause of Humanity’s Distress Nears Removal ***
Witnesses of Divine Victory


18 The earthly survivors will also include those whom the apostle John groups together as a “great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,” for they take their stand on the side of God and his Jesus Christ. The apostle John is straightforwardly told that this “great crowd” is made up of the “ones that come out of the great tribulation,” and he sees them standing as survivors before God’s throne and before his Lamb, loudly crying out: “Victory to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (Rev. 7:9-15; NE) These will join with the “remaining ones of [the woman’s] seed” in singing the “new song” to Jehovah God for his divine victory. All these survivors on earth are the ones against whom Satan the great dragon stirred up the “kings of the earth and their armies” for the purpose of destroying all such upholders of Jehovah God and his Messianic kingdom. By waging war against these, the “kings of the earth and their armies” really wage war against God and provoke war action by God and his King of kings.

Now I have to ask here ... :confused: :scratchhead::questioning:

If ... ONLY ... the 144,000 can sing this song ... was able to 'master this song' ... or as the NWT footnote says ...

'Or, “learn fully.”

and as strong's definition is ...

G3129 μανθάνω

manthanō man-than'-o


Prolonged from a primary verb, another form of which, μαθέω matheō, is used as an alternate in certain tenses; to learn (in any way): - learn, understand.


Then how could we as members of the 'Great Crowd on earth' JOIN IN with them in singing a HEAVENLY song?!

As you can see ... or at least for me anyway ... things get 'sticky' or 'complicated' when you really begin to dig and search for those 'treasures' of understanding ...:shocked::huh:

When something is FALSE then no matter how you try to 'rework it' ... 'spin it' ... 'change it' ... or whatever it just cannot make sense in light of FULL scope of scripture and not just a pet few that 'seem' to make it sound 'true' ...

The reality and truth is supposed to be CLEAR ... so clear that a 'child' can understand it ... :baby:

So, do ONLY the 'anointed' as witnesses view them sing this song ... or do we ALL sing this song ...?

And if that is the case ... that we ALL JOIN TOGETHER (albeit we do it in a 'different' way :shocked: ... and what does that even mean ... that we don't fully understand what we will sing or does it mean we won't sing 'all' of it or what' ...? :dontknow: )

And if we ALL sing it ... and ONLY the 144,000 can 'learn' it ... then what would that mean ...?????

'Could it 'POSSIBLY' mean then that we are ALL a part of this COMPLETE NUMBER??

Notice what the society says the number 12 signifies ...

*** w52 4/15 p. 250 par. 7 Aids for Understanding Prophecy ***

7 The symbolic number twelve indicates a theocratic organization number of completeness. The typical theocratic organization of Israel had twelve tribes. (Ex. 28:21) Jesus appointed twelve apostles as the foundation of his spiritual Israel. (Matt. 10:2; Eph. 2:20) Finally, in Revelation 7:4-8 there are listed the twelve tribes of spiritual Israel which comprise Christ’s theocratic kingdom organization. Twice twelve or the number “24” also appears to refer to theocratic organization.—Rev. 4:4.

Now, thinking of the 12 and 24 ... and adding 1000 to it ... could that not show a real conclusive 'TOTALNESS or COMPLETENESS of those who are a part of spiritual Israel ... who are a PART OF ... Christ's KINGDOM ... for is not the 'earth' a PART of it ...?

That as Jesus told his father ... not ONE of his 'sheep' are missing!

Anyway, I should close for now ... look forward to any input ... :giverose:

Lotsa luv BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:


http://bruisedreednotbroke.blogspot.com
02-03-2011 02:37 PM
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Willa
Peace, baby!


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Post: #27
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

BruisedReed Wrote:
Now, I have some thoughts I read in various articles in the Watchtower that describe some of the 'duties' of what witnesses refer to as 'other sheep' and try to imagine the literal temple arrangement and how it was set out ... and those who have good historical recall I hope you will add something or correct me ... :blush:

In the 'temple' only the priests were allowed in certain areas due to their being 'chosen' for this privelege of service to their brothers ...

Now I ask myself ...? :confused: :scratchhead:

Self ... could they have had 'fill-ins', as it were, for their assignments from those not of the priestly lineage? Could they, if their duties overwhelmed them, or they got sick or too old ask other members not of the levites for example, of the nation to do their job for them? :dontknow:

Here is where those with deeper knowledge of 'who' did 'what' would help ... ;):giverose:

I am kind of thinking ... no ... :blush:


Good stuff, BR - good comments by all, it's refreshing!:drinking:

This caught my eye, but I'm not sure it fits in with the theme... I asked a couple of elders once why, if the members of the gb(f&ds) are all of 'the anointed remnant' - why are there 'non-anointed' members? And they launched into a speel about how this was brought out in a past wt mag and they call those replacements something - some title out of the OT - and so it's all okey-dokey in wtland. :toiletpaper: < that's what I think of their cover up 'explanation' - so much of that has gone on since all their predictions went stale and dusty. wt is virtually a spiritual wasteland.
:(

Does anyone else remember anything about those gb 'replacements'? It did have to do with priests and priestly duties. I've searched a little, but my cd drive doesn't work so I can't search the wt cd. I don't even know what word to look for - my brain's trying to recall... :taphead: might take a while... years, if at all, lol!

:love:


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
02-03-2011 07:53 PM
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gogh
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Post: #28
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Hi Willa

Might this be something helpful???

...from Watchtower 1992 article "Jehovah’s Provision, the “Given Ones”

Regarding “given ones”/Nethinim...

Here are some quotes from some paragraphs:

"What did the Nethinim do? The Levites were given to help the priests, and thereafter the Nethinim were given to help the Levites. Even for circumcised foreigners, this was a privilege."

"Of course, the Nethinim did not become the equals of the priests and the Levites......the Nethinim were given more to do in God’s service. They were assigned living quarters close to the temple......This indicates how closely these “given ones” (Levites and Nethinim) were then linked in spiritual matters and how the Nethinim’s assignments increased in accord with the need,..."

"But now the other sheep must go on increasing. The fact that some of them, comparable to the Nethinim and the sons of the servants of Solomon, are now being assigned weighty responsibilities under the oversight of the anointed remnant does not cause them to be presumptuous or feel self-important....This gives us confidence that as God’s people “come out of the great tribulation,” there will be experienced men—“princes”—prepared to take the lead among the other sheep."

:coffeeread:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
02-03-2011 09:20 PM
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e-magine
Disciple of Newness


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Post: #29
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Hi BR, Great research!!
So, they would have the GC singing a different "new song" then the one THEY sing! But of course... :funnyface:

You made me think of something else. If the number 144000 is literal, why are they numbered only as 24 elders in Heaven?
The fact that John says of the GC, "no man was able to number", doesn't logically prove that the "anointed" are able to be numbered.
They use this false logic to prove that the GC (not numbered) is different from the 144000 (numbered).
What this proves to me is that the number 144000 is NOT a real number, same as the 24 (Elders) in not.

You said, "Now, thinking of the 12 and 24 ... and adding 1000 to it ... could that not show a real conclusive 'TOTALNESS or COMPLETENESS of those who are a part of spiritual Israel ... who are a PART OF ... Christ's KINGDOM ... for is not the 'earth' a PART of it ...?"

YES


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Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
02-03-2011 09:25 PM
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man hu
Babe and any other piggy names


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Post: #30
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

e-magine Wrote:
Hi BR, Great research!!
So, they would have the GC singing a different "new song" then the one THEY sing! But of course... :funnyface:

You made me think of something else. If the number 144000 is literal, why are they numbered only as 24 elders in Heaven?
The fact that John says of the GC, "no man was able to number", doesn't logically prove that the "anointed" are able to be numbered.
They use this false logic to prove that the GC (not numbered) is different from the 144000 (numbered).
What this proves to me is that the number 144000 is NOT a real number, same as the 24 (Elders) in not.

You said, "Now, thinking of the 12 and 24 ... and adding 1000 to it ... could that not show a real conclusive 'TOTALNESS or COMPLETENESS of those who are a part of spiritual Israel ... who are a PART OF ... Christ's KINGDOM ... for is not the 'earth' a PART of it ...?"

YES

The 24 elders are not the 144,000.

The 24 elders are not resurrected ones. They are in heaven before the resurrection starts. They are in heaven when the scroll is given to Jesus, they are there when the fifth seal is opened, and the slaughtered ones are still under the altar and the 24 elders are there when the seventh trumpet blasts and Jesus comes to resurrect those destined for the kingdom.

Confusing the 24 elders and the 144,000 is a WT thing. Heck everything else in the Bible is talking about them, why not toss in the 24 elders?


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02-04-2011 12:32 AM
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