Latest News: The Great Trubulation


Pages (4): « First < Previous 1 2 [3] 4 Next > Last »
Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?
Author Message
e-magine
Disciple of Newness


Posts: 2,488
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #31
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

man hu Wrote:

e-magine Wrote:
Hi BR, Great research!!
So, they would have the GC singing a different "new song" then the one THEY sing! But of course... :funnyface:

You made me think of something else. If the number 144000 is literal, why are they numbered only as 24 elders in Heaven?
The fact that John says of the GC, "no man was able to number", doesn't logically prove that the "anointed" are able to be numbered.
They use this false logic to prove that the GC (not numbered) is different from the 144000 (numbered).
What this proves to me is that the number 144000 is NOT a real number, same as the 24 (Elders) in not.

You said, "Now, thinking of the 12 and 24 ... and adding 1000 to it ... could that not show a real conclusive 'TOTALNESS or COMPLETENESS of those who are a part of spiritual Israel ... who are a PART OF ... Christ's KINGDOM ... for is not the 'earth' a PART of it ...?"

YES

The 24 elders are not the 144,000.

The 24 elders are not resurrected ones. They are in heaven before the resurrection starts. They are in heaven when the scroll is given to Jesus, they are there when the fifth seal is opened, and the slaughtered ones are still under the altar and the 24 elders are there when the seventh trumpet blasts and Jesus comes to resurrect those destined for the kingdom.

Confusing the 24 elders and the 144,000 is a WT thing. Heck everything else in the Bible is talking about them, why not toss in the 24 elders?


Thanks for that clarification Vicky! I didn't mean to imply that I thought the 24 elders = the 144K. That is a WT fab. :drinking:


avatar:
Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
02-04-2011 12:58 AM
Find all posts by this user
BruisedReed
Sheepette


Posts: 2,076
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #32
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Hey Vicky ... :hibye:

I thought I would put up this snippet in light of your comment regarding 'who' the anointed think they are represented as ...

you said ...

Confusing the 24 elders and the 144,000 is a WT thing. Heck everything else in the Bible is talking about them, why not toss in the 24 elders?


Yes, and since the Bible was written MAINLY FOR THE ANOINTED ... with the 'other sheep' being spoken about by their 'association with the anointed' ... well they really have a 'ego' problem IMHO ...

Notice just 'some' of their applications they use to describe 'who' the scriptures are talking about ... :shocked::huh:

*** w60 7/15 The Awake “Faithful and Discreet Slave” ***

Following is the partial list of Scriptural and prophetic designations applying to or being represented in the anointed remnant since 1919:


(1) Noah’s wife, Gen. 7:7; (2) angels sent to Lot, Gen. 19:15; (3) Rebekah, Gen. 24:64; (4) Joseph and Benjamin, Gen. 45:14; (5) gleanings left behind, Lev. 19:9; (6) two spies to Rahab, Josh. 2:4; (7) Barak, Judg. 4:14; (8) Jephthah, Judg. 11:34; (9) Naomi and Ruth, Ruth 2:2; (10) David’s Israelite warriors, 2 Sam. 18:1; (11) Jehu, 2 Ki. 10:11, 15; (12) Mordecai and Esther, Esther 4:13; (13) Job, Job 42:10, 13; (14) King’s daughter, Ps. 45:13; (15) men of loving-kindness, Ps. 50:5; (16) Intimate group, Ps. 89:7; (17) Shear-jashub, Isa. 7:3; (18) light of the nations, Isa. 60:3; (19) big trees of righteousness, Isa. 61:3; (20) ministers of our God, Isa. 61:6; (21) cluster preserved, Isa. 65:8; (22) servants called by another name, Isa. 65:15; (23) men trembling at God’s word, Isa. 66:5; (24) new nation born, Isa. 66:8 (25) Jeremiah, Jer. 1:10; (26) Jehovah’s people in the new covenant, Jer. 31:33; (27) man clothed in linen, Ezek. 9:2; (28) dwellers in the center of the earth, Ezek. 38:12; (29) trees by the river, Ezek. 47:7; (30) fishers, Ezek. 47:10; (31) the host of heaven, Dan. 8:10; (32) sanctuary restored (cleansed), Dan. 8:14; (33) they that are wise, Dan. 11:33; (34) many in the dust awake to everlasting life, Dan. 12:2; (35) all flesh receiving the spirit, Joel 2:28; (36) Jonah, Jon. 3:1-3; (37) apple of Jehovah’s eye, Zech. 2:8; (38) Joshua the high priest, Zech. 3:3, 4; (39) a Jew, Zech. 8:23; (40) sons of Levi, Mal. 3:3; (41) wheat, Matt. 13:25; (42) sons of the kingdom, Matt. 13:38; (43) workers for the vineyard, Matt. 20:1; (44) those invited to marriage feast, Matt. 22:3-14; (45) chosen ones, Matt. 24:22; (46) eagles, Matt. 24:28; (47) faithful and discreet slave, Matt. 24:45; (48) discreet virgins, Matt. 25:2; (49) brothers of the king, Matt. 25:40; (50) little flock of sheep, Luke 12:32; (51) older brother of the prodigal, Luke 15:25; (52) beggar Lazarus, Luke 16:20; (53) branches of the vine, John 15:4; (54) royal palace of David, Acts 15:16; (55) heirs with Christ, Rom. 8:17; (56) the remnant, Rom. 11:5; (57) branches in the olive tree, Rom. 11:24; (58) holy ones of saints, 1 Cor. 6:2; Rev. 16:6; (59) temple, 1 Cor. 6:19; (60) new creation, 2 Cor. 5:17; (61) ambassadors for Christ, 2 Cor. 5:20; (62) congregation of God, Gal. 1:13; (63) part of Abraham’s seed, Gal. 3:29; (64) Israel of God, Gal. 6:16; (65) body of Christ, Eph. 1:22, 23; (66) soldiers of Christ Jesus, 2 Tim. 2:3; (67) house built by Christ, Heb. 3:6; (68) holy priesthood, 1 Pet. 2:5; (69) holy nation, 1 Pet. 2:9; (70) association of brothers, 1 Pet. 2:17; (71) seven congregations, Rev. 1:20; (72) twenty-four persons of advanced age, Rev. 4:4; (73) spiritual Israel, Rev. 7:4; (74) locusts, Rev. 9:3, (75) two witnesses, Rev. 11:3; (76) two olive trees, Rev. 11:4; (77) seed of the woman, Rev. 12:17; (78) trees of life, Rev. 22:2; (79) the bride of Christ, Rev. 22:17; 19:7; (80) Jehovah’s witnesses, Isa. 43:10.

This Biblical description is timely portrayed on the 1960 calendar of Jehovah’s witnesses.


So, this PARTIAL list sure doesn't leave much left for 'us' does it ...?:dontknow:

Gotta love (hate) it don't ya ... :angry:

Luv BR :sheepy::bouncyhearts:

PS ... notice the LAST on the list ... that being a JEHOVAH'S WITNESS applies to THEM ... so I guess the millions of other 'witnesses' are only called so because of their 'association' with the 'real' witnesses ... well that would maybe explain the change in baptism questions ...

'In association with ....' :P


http://bruisedreednotbroke.blogspot.com
02-04-2011 01:50 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Malkah
Ish Milchamah - Man of War


Posts: 596
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #33
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

.....but other than that they're a pretty humble bunch. Honestly!


Adonai,
Ish Milchamah.
Adonai hu sh'mo.

Baruch HaShem, melech haOlam.

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
-Mahatma Gandhi
02-04-2011 02:05 PM
Find all posts by this user
e-magine
Disciple of Newness


Posts: 2,488
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #34
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Most JW's don't even realize that they consider themselves alone the "Christian Congregation". Even more shocking, they don't even consider the GC the true Jehovah's Witnesses. Anyone know of the article or book that expresses this?


avatar:
Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
02-04-2011 03:45 PM
Find all posts by this user
BruisedReed
Sheepette


Posts: 2,076
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #35
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Hey br. emagine ... :hibye:

Yes, I know there are articles that say this ... I am looking now ... :read::love:

Here is one that I found right away that might proof food for discussion ...:blush: sometimes 'implications' ... or leaving one to think on illustrations can be more powerful to our thought processes and beliefs than we might 'imagine' ... (pun :P)

That's why it takes 'being' a witness for some time to 'understand' all the things that are not necessarily in 'print' thus allowing those in 'charge' the ability to have 'plausibility' ... hence where did we 'say' that or 'print' that kind of loophole ... ingenious really ... not ... for they then speak 'forked tongue' ... and we know who or what has a 'fork-tonged' in illustrative language! :devil:


*** w60 9/15 p. 559 par. 7 Congregating All Nations at Jehovah’s House ***

7 “Does this mean you view your Kingdom Halls as the true church?” No, the Kingdom Hall is not the “church.” Jehovah’s temple today is heavenly, spiritual. The English word “church” or “congregation” comes from the Greek word ek•kle•si´a, meaning “assembly.”Ek•kle•si´a or “congregation” is applied collectively to all Christians known as the anointed spirit-begotten class who are on earth at any particular time. Often it is applied to the local assembly in any place. Jesus called the members of his congregation a “little flock.” (Luke 12:32) Christ is the congregation’s Head. The members of his “body” number just 144,000. (Rev. 7:4; 14:1) “But isn’t that number symbolic?” No, for if you try to enlarge it in any way, for instance, increasing the 144,000 to 144,000,000, you would no longer have a “little” flock. God’s Word further identifies this little flock by various names, such as “anointed” ones (2 Cor. 1:21); “body” of Christ (Eph. 1:22, 23); “congregation of God” (Gal. 1:13); “heirs . . . of God” (Rom. 8:17); “holy nation” (1 Pet. 2:9); “holy ones” (1 Cor. 1:2); “holy priesthood” (1 Pet. 2:5); “Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16); “new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17); “royal palace of David” (Acts 15:16); “sons of the kingdom” (Matt. 13:38); “sealed . . . sons of Israel” (Rev. 7:4); and “temple of the holy spirit” (1 Cor. 6:19). Each year at the Memorial celebration of the anniversary of Christ’s death it is noted that the remaining ones of this “little flock” number only several thousands—just a remnant. Yet this remnant continue to spearhead the witness work, being first to sing the new song about Jehovah’s established kingdom under Christ.—Rev. 14:3.

8 “But who were all those witnesses of Jehovah at Yankee Stadium and the Polo Grounds the year you assembled a quarter of a million people in New York city? That was no little flock!” That’s correct, they were a great crowd, part of those Jesus called his “other sheep.” (John 10:16) They hope to live here on earth in God’s new world, under the righteous rule of Christ Jesus and his heavenly congregation. (Rev. 21:1-5) Their salvation does not depend upon being a member of the heavenly congregation any more than an Englishman must sit in the House of Parliament in London in order to enjoy the rights and duties of a British subject. That there would be a great crowd[b] associated with the true congregation[/b] we have further proof, in the words of John, another apostolic foundation: “I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, . . . crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’” (Rev. 7:9, 10) No mention is made of attributing salvation to any mysterious third person of a supposed “trinity,” for the Christian congregation does not hold to Christendom’s mistaken belief in this regard. (John 14:28; 1 Cor. 11:3; 15:28) The congregation does rely on God’s holy spirit or active force to perform its ministry, of course, but salvation comes from Jehovah God through Christ.


This 'teaching' has never changed ... but perhaps reworded differently is all ...but the meaning here is pretty clear, at least to me, that we really aren't a part of the 'congregation of Christ' at all!!

It is only because we are in ... as the last baptism question states ...

Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?

that we can be 'called' or 'identified' as 'Jehovah's Witnesses' ... thus as 'true Christians' or 'members of the congregation' not because of a 'connection' for ourselves ... but who were are connected 'to' I guess ... :(

Oh, but they say we are ... but then they say we are not ... it is those nasty and hateful word games they play that has led them ... and thankfully US who have seen through the 'curtain of false tongued ones' and thus can know WHO we are and WHOM we serve!!

And it ain't them!! (slang intended)

I'll keep looking ... for I know they HAVE written that only the 'anointed' can truly be the name CHRISTians ... for only they are anointed ... hopefully some of our faster researchers will find it first ... for I don't know how long it may take to put in the 'right' words in the search in the cdrom ...

luv BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:


http://bruisedreednotbroke.blogspot.com
02-04-2011 04:10 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
e-magine
Disciple of Newness


Posts: 2,488
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #36
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Thanks BR! That is a GOOD one! :love:

When they write a letter to the congregations these days, they sign it, "Your Brothers, Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses"
When they first adopted that name in 1935, those who were not of the "Anointed Remnant" were called "Jonadabs", not Jehovah's Witnesses. Slowly "Jonadabs" was dropped and all were called 'Jehovah's Witnesses", but not in the strictest sense.
Kingdom Halls are called, "Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses", so the public naturally thought that all who attend there must be "Jehovah's Witnesses".
But not so. What the name really means is that the Kingdom Halls are OWNED by the Jehovah's Witnesses, the anointed Christian Congregation in Bethel.
So the name caught on for the rank and file, and the GB decided it was best for public relations.
But I can't verify this. :huh:


avatar:
Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
02-04-2011 05:31 PM
Find all posts by this user
man hu
Babe and any other piggy names


Posts: 2,498
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #37
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

*** w60 9/15 p. 559 par. 7

Quote:
The English word “church” or “congregation” comes from the Greek word ek•kle•si´a, meaning “assembly.”Ek•kle•si´a or “congregation” is applied collectively to all Christians known as the anointed spirit-begotten class who are on earth at any particular time.


ek-klesia actually meant called out such as by a town crier.

Ek .... out of.
and
Klesia
... call,
So christians were in this instance a group called out and gathered together.
The word call (klesia) can mean 1. a legal summons or 2. a calling to a feast
This applies to anyone who has been called out from the morass of mankind. For a christian, to hear this call and to respond requires the holy spirit and that does not only apply for a small select group.
________________________________________________________________

By the way Luke 12:32 does not say little flock, Jesus calls them in that verse insignificant little flock.....mikron poimnion.
Poimnon means a flock The Greeks put an 'I' in the middle of a word to make it diminutive. Like turning a sheep into a sheepette. So poimn-i-on is a little flock. Mikron (micron) also means tiny as we know, since we use it in English. So Jesus is not saying little flock, more like teeny-weeny flock.
The context shows Jesus is encouraging his followers who are about to go out into the big wide world. I do not think this tiny group He was talking to is synonymous with the 144,000.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
02-05-2011 01:22 AM
Find all posts by this user
Willa
Peace, baby!


Posts: 2,384
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #38
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

BR, I think the problem lies in applying definite terms to the wt's sliding explanations - they're slipperier than wet snakes!
They use whatever convenient explanation best fits the backside they're coverin'!

The word 'congregation' for instance - we can find where they use it to apply to all baptized members, or only to the 'anointed' few, OR to only a particular kh's elder body. I asked those handy elders about the disfellowshipping process as Jesus plainly outlined in 4 steps -

(1) Matthew 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother."
(2) 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED."
(3) 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and
(4) if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

They said THEY, the elders, ARE the congregation - SYMBOLICALLY as the REPRESENTATIVE few for the rest. What? :huh:

Acts 4:32[ Sharing among Believers ] And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. Sounds like all believers, not just a few 'representatives'. We don't NEED representatives - we have Christ!

At Acts 6:1-6 the new believers in Christ were called disciples, and the 12 apostles called together the whole Jerusalem congregation of disciples to ask their opinion on a matter. Throughout Paul's epistles he called the entire congregation, all the members, 'the church'.

This really doesn't sit well with me IF what they're saying is that the wt gb/fds/'anointed remnant' are representive as high priest over the members/'other sheep'/ 'great crowd' ??? >>> (38) Joshua the high priest, Zech. 3:3, 4;

Zechariah 3:1Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" 3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel. 4He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, "Remove the filthy garments from him " Again he said to him, "See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes." 5Then I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by. 6And the angel of the LORD admonished Joshua, saying, 7"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.

(39) a Jew, Zech. 8:23;("Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'") - there's a whole thread about this one around here somewhere, when it was in a wt study article. :readthis:

Again - we don't need 'priestly' 'representatives' - we have Christ Jesus, THE High Priest - FOREVER!

:peace:

ps - thanks, gogh- yup that's it. I'll see what else I can find on that...:read:


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
02-05-2011 01:23 AM
Find all posts by this user
man hu
Babe and any other piggy names


Posts: 2,498
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #39
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Hello BR and all. I have often thought of the WT's understanding of Rev. 7 (or lack of) is very much like the famous film 'The Third Man' starring Orson Welles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZZHq2JSnnE&NR=1

According to the story there is a road accident accident involving two people. The mystery is only solved by realising there is a third man.

Well a read through Revelation 7 tells us there are four groups listed.
Read it through and count them if you cannot list all four. No one will ever understand the scripture otherwise.
But there are three groups that will receive salvation.

The main groups are the symbolic Israelites and the symbolic gentiles.
Out of the former are chosen 144,000 and a great crowd comes out of the latter.

Which group do we belong to?
Not the great crowd because they come out of the great tribulation. Thr GT has not happened and they have not come out from among the symbolic gentiles yet.
The 144,000 have not been sealed yet, since the four winds are still being held back.
Out of the three groups that get life (I think those of the disparate groups that do not recognise Jesus don't) The only group that is in existence now is the third one, the symbolic Israeliites.
We are the cleansed symbolic Israelites, and are the one group the WT forgets to mention.
All they tallk about are the 144,000 and the Great Crowd neither of which exists yet.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
02-06-2011 03:59 AM
Find all posts by this user
COMankind
Member


Posts: 337
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Oct 2010
Status: Offline
Post: #40
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Man Hu (Vicki is it?) - I believe what you have just said is quite profound.

Quote:
Which group do we belong to?
Not the great crowd because they come out of the great tribulation....The 144,000 have not been sealed yet, since the four winds are still being held back


Your point is here, and it is a powerful one. However, your point is based on the assumption the the great tribulation has not occurred, and the four winds were never released. If that assumption is correct, then indeed, we are not identified by these two groups.

man hu Wrote:
According to the story there is a road accident accident involving two people. The mystery is only solved by realising there is a third man.
...But there are three groups that will receive salvation.


The solution therefore is introducing a third group that we must identify with, the one unseen by the WT. (But I don't think we'd suggest that God would hide this group in his word the Bible.)

Quote:
The only group that is in existence now is the third one, the symbolic Israeliites.


I'd be very curious where these were identified in John's vision, any insight would help. Jesus spoke of sheep that are not a part of 'this fold' that will join to become one flock, one shepherd....maybe i'm missing something (I've been known to)

This third party is certainly a solution, that is if the assumption that the tribulation and releasing of the four winds has not happened. I would argue, lovingly and with respect, that it is clearer to see the past fulfillment of these events than 'a third man'


philia, COMankind

"The tent of God is with mankind" - Rev 21:3

02-06-2011 11:19 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Resolute
politicus incorrectissimus in extremis


Posts: 1,883
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #41
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Greetings, COMankind, bro :wave:

Way back in the day when we were on Robert's board, our brother Freyd used to say (whenever the topic of Revelation 7:4-8 came up): "Out of" "Out of what?". He said it often enough that we finally paid attention.

There it was -- "spiritual Israel" was hiding in plain sight. It's amazing what we see when we take the WT blinkers off.:shocked:

Some of us now feel that the group designated as 144,000 are those selected "out of" spiritual Israel and sealed just before the fireworks start. Some of them have already died a martyr's death from the first century onward. The others are about to be martyred.

Have a look at Revelation 6:9-11

"And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been."

Then have a look at Revelation 11:1-10

"And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.” These are [symbolized by] the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire issues forth from their mouths and devours their enemies; and if anyone should want to harm them, in this manner he must be killed. These have the authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish. And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sod′om and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled. And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not let their corpses be laid in a tomb. And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth."

It makes sense that when John was told to: "measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it" that this is related to the sealing of the 144,000. The ones about to be martyred are represented as the two witnesses.

Sure enough, these are killed by the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss after witnessing for 3 and a half years. (great trib?)


Hope this helps,:giverose:
rez

PS....It helps if you aren't a linear thinker when reading Revelation. It isn't a linear work. More like a 3-dimensional puzzle.:P


When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one… – Edmund Burke
02-06-2011 12:23 PM
Find all posts by this user
COMankind
Member


Posts: 337
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Oct 2010
Status: Offline
Post: #42
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Resolute, thanks for the breakdown of the perspective. That's helpful.
Just so I understand:

Those under the altar, those who died as martyrs: 144K. Correct?
The Great Crowd/Multitude (that can't be numbered): Out of the tribulation.
The Spiritual Israelites: We are included in this group, which the 144K are part of.

This definitely creates a larger, innumerable group prior to an Armaggedon in our future, that we can be a part of.

The transfiguration showed two of the 144K (those under the altar) - would you agree? Enoch never died (Hebrews 11) and was taken up - another member of that group, true?

RE: the two witnesses: 'and their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city...where their Lord was impaled' - Instead of being taken as Jerusalem of 70 AD (and I hope i'm understanding this) are you suggesting this is now a Spiritual Jerusalem (city) that holds Spiritual Israelites? If so, my concern is that the assertion is getting compounded here. Neither of these two entities are identified, the closest being New Jerusalem, which is not the same.

I can certainly understand the antitype of [Jerusalem: New Jerusalem] then projecting that onto its inhabitants: [Israelites: Spiritual Israelites] - but I can only see that application AFTER the kingdom has been installed, and New Jerusalem is operational. From that standpoint, I do agree that we are Spiritual Israelites, but I only see that because I recognize that New Jerusalem is already installed. And we are right now under the tent of God.

It's like a missing link is being inserted here, when it really doesn't have to be. Again, any clarity would help.

Thanks Bro. Rez.


philia, COMankind

"The tent of God is with mankind" - Rev 21:3

02-06-2011 04:03 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
symbiosis
Member


Posts: 30
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Jan 2011
Status: Offline
Post: #43
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

Quote:
Greetings, COMankind, bro

Way back in the day when we were on Robert's board, our brother Freyd used to say (whenever the topic of Revelation 7:4-8 came up): "Out of" "Out of what?". He said it often enough that we finally paid attention.

There it was -- "spiritual Israel" was hiding in plain sight. It's amazing what we see when we take the WT blinkers off.

Some of us now feel that the group designated as 144,000 are those selected "out of" spiritual Israel and sealed just before the fireworks start. Some of them have already died a martyr's death from the first century onward. The others are about to be martyred.


Hi Resolute

wow! that makes sense to me, the 12 tribes(spiritual Israel) are in front of our noses
that reasoning brings into play the seven churches,
the seven churches must be spiritual Israel?

thanks

Sym :thumbup:

02-06-2011 05:36 PM
Find all posts by this user
Resolute
politicus incorrectissimus in extremis


Posts: 1,883
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #44
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

COMankind Wrote:
Resolute, thanks for the breakdown of the perspective. That's helpful.
Just so I understand:

Those under the altar, those who died as martyrs: 144K. Correct?
The Great Crowd/Multitude (that can't be numbered): Out of the tribulation.
The Spiritual Israelites: We are included in this group, which the 144K are part of.

This definitely creates a larger, innumerable group prior to an Armaggedon in our future, that we can be a part of.

The transfiguration showed two of the 144K (those under the altar) - would you agree? Enoch never died (Hebrews 11) and was taken up - another member of that group, true?

RE: the two witnesses: 'and their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city...where their Lord was impaled' - Instead of being taken as Jerusalem of 70 AD (and I hope i'm understanding this) are you suggesting this is now a Spiritual Jerusalem (city) that holds Spiritual Israelites? If so, my concern is that the assertion is getting compounded here. Neither of these two entities are identified, the closest being New Jerusalem, which is not the same.

I can certainly understand the antitype of [Jerusalem: New Jerusalem] then projecting that onto its inhabitants: [Israelites: Spiritual Israelites] - but I can only see that application AFTER the kingdom has been installed, and New Jerusalem is operational. From that standpoint, I do agree that we are Spiritual Israelites, but I only see that because I recognize that New Jerusalem is already installed. And we are right now under the tent of God.

It's like a missing link is being inserted here, when it really doesn't have to be. Again, any clarity would help.

Thanks Bro. Rez.


First of all...it's sis.:siskiss: (I'm the little black sheep in my avatar-- hehe)

Secondly, my perspective is just that -- a perspective. So, that being said, here is a little more. Please don't take it as dogma...it isn't.:D

Quote:
Those under the altar, those who died as martyrs: 144K. Correct?


I'd say, partly. Some have died already; some are about to die after the 3 1/2 years of prophesying by the two witnesses.

Quote:
The Great Crowd/Multitude (that can't be numbered): Out of the tribulation.


The Great Crowd are not yet a reality because the tribulation hasn't started. (but close, I think)

Quote:
The Spiritual Israelites: We are included in this group, which the 144K are part of.


Yupper. The 144K are taken from among these spiritual 12 tribes.

Quote:
The transfiguration showed two of the 144K (those under the altar) - would you agree? Enoch never died (Hebrews 11) and was taken up - another member of that group, true?


In the transfiguration vision we see Moses and Elijah with Jesus. Moses and Elijah correspond to the two witness of Revelation 11. Notice that it is said of these two witnesses:

"These have the authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying (Elijah), and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish (Moses)." -- Revelation 11:6

"E·li′jah was a man with feelings like ours, and yet in prayer he prayed for it not to rain; and it did not rain upon the land for three years and six months." -- James 5:17

Notice that when James speaks of Elijah he says it did not rain for 3 years and six months. Now check out the timeline of the two-witness prophesying. 42 months/a thousand two hundred and sixty days = 3 1/2 years.

The two witnesses do an Elijah and Moses type of sign. I don't think they're under the altar yet -- just ready to die. They measure up and are sealed, ready to be martyred to join the rest of the 144K who are already "under" the altar (souls = blood)

I don't think that Enoch is still alive because, after listing all the faithful ones in Hebrews 11, which included Enoch, its says in verse 13 "All these died".

Quote:
RE: the two witnesses: 'and their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city...where their Lord was impaled' - Instead of being taken as Jerusalem of 70 AD (and I hope i'm understanding this) are you suggesting this is now a Spiritual Jerusalem (city) that holds Spiritual Israelites? If so, my concern is that the assertion is getting compounded here. Neither of these two entities are identified, the closest being New Jerusalem, which is not the same.


The "great city" where their Lord was impaled is more likened to Babylon the Great. Here's why I think that. Jesus said of the unfaithful Jerusalem:

"From that time forward Jesus Christ commenced showing his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the older men and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised up." -- Matthew 16:21

and:

"Being now about to go up to Jerusalem, Jesus took the twelve disciples off privately and said to them on the road: “Look! We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be delivered up to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death, and will deliver him up to [men of] the nations to make fun of and to scourge and to impale, and the third day he will be raised up." -- Matthew 20:17-19

"For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri′ah son of Bar·a·chi′ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’” -- Matthew 23:34-39

Now compare these passages with what is said at Revelation 18:21-24:

"And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again. And the sound of singers who accompany themselves on the harp and of musicians and of flutists and of trumpeters will never be heard in you again, and no craftsman of any trade will ever be found in you again, and no sound of a millstone will ever be heard in you again, 23 and no light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; because your traveling merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, for by your spiritistic practice all the nations were misled. Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

....which hearkens back to God's message to Jerusalem by the hand of Jeremiah 25:10:

"And I will destroy out of them the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp."

First century unfaithful Jerusalem was a type of the Babylon the Great of Revelation. Please put aside the WT's teaching on BTG. It's downright screwy.:funnyface:

Phew! I'm making this very long....sorry....but I don't want to miss a vital link.

So, to wrap up for now, the city of Revelation 11 represents all those who claim to belong to Christ. The faithful are sealed out of the rest and make up the two witnesses. The rest (the courtyard) are given to the nations to be trampled for 3 1/2 years (a time of discipline).

There is much more in just this little bit of Revelation 11. But for now, I'll just reassure you that this is not the faithful New Jerusalem. That city, the Lamb's bride will come down out of heaven at a later time (not too much later)

in Christ,
rez


When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one… – Edmund Burke
02-06-2011 05:54 PM
Find all posts by this user
Resolute
politicus incorrectissimus in extremis


Posts: 1,883
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #45
RE: Priests ... Who are they BIBLICALLY?

symbiosis Wrote:

Quote:
Greetings, COMankind, bro

Way back in the day when we were on Robert's board, our brother Freyd used to say (whenever the topic of Revelation 7:4-8 came up): "Out of" "Out of what?". He said it often enough that we finally paid attention.

There it was -- "spiritual Israel" was hiding in plain sight. It's amazing what we see when we take the WT blinkers off.

Some of us now feel that the group designated as 144,000 are those selected "out of" spiritual Israel and sealed just before the fireworks start. Some of them have already died a martyr's death from the first century onward. The others are about to be martyred.


Hi Resolute

wow! that makes sense to me, the 12 tribes(spiritual Israel) are in front of our noses
that reasoning brings into play the seven churches,
the seven churches must be spiritual Israel?

thanks

Sym :thumbup:


I'd say so, sym.:) ...and...you're welcome.

rez;)


When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one… – Edmund Burke
02-06-2011 05:56 PM
Find all posts by this user

View a Printable Version
Send this Thread to a Friend
Subscribe to this Thread | Add Thread to Favorites

Forum Jump: