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Born again?
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ablebodiedman
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Born again?

Lots of Churches have different explanations for what Jesus Christ told Nicodemus.

Could it be however, that Jesus Christ was referring to the exact same and future event that Paul called the sacred secret?


John 3:7-8
Do not marvel because I told you, YOU people must be born again. 8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone that has been born from the spirit.”



1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Lots of Churches believe that they are already "born again".


Perhaps however, a person is not really born again until they are really born again.

Might be interesting to see peoples opinions.



In Christ

abe


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02-19-2011 04:46 PM
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Willa
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RE: Born again?

Peter might be the only one who uses that exact phrase. Some other passages to consider --

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you, 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

later... :)


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
02-19-2011 07:26 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Born again?

Willa,

So, is Peter addressing people who are born again or people who have faith and hope that they will be born again?


In Christ

abe


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The Unforgivable Sin
02-19-2011 08:12 PM
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Willa
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RE: Born again?

Sorry to leave that hanging, Able, I was in a rush.
I think it's both now AND later. For Peter said "you HAVE BEEN born again" - so it's knowing we're saved NOW - but the entire scope of what that means has not yet been realized in this life, so it's FUTURE. To me it seems to be two-fold - an awareness of God's spirit guiding our hearts and minds, and with that awareness goes the hope of receiving all the promises God made towards those who love Him - life through Christ Jesus and residence in His Kingdom.

PEACE :))


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
02-19-2011 09:03 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Born again?

Willa,

Yes, it seems to me that when Peter is addressing people who are "born again" he is using the same principle explained in Romans:


Romans 4:17
just as it is written: “I have appointed you a father of many nations.”) This was in the sight of the One in whom he had faith, even of God, who makes the dead alive (born again) and calls the things that are not as though they were.


Makes the dead alive = born again?


Otherwise when the people who claim to be born again become resurrected they will be born again..... again.


In Christ

abe


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02-20-2011 11:54 AM
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Seraphim
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RE: Born again?

Abe I think your confusing spiritual concepts with the literal outworking of those things. People have to be physically living to be born again, and the scriptures quite clearly show that being born again happens in this earthly life dependant on true faith. That means to God they don`t die spiritually speaking. Literally speaking its a mystery how this will be realized. Soul sleep is one option, or instant resurrection to heaven or whatever, but that's not the born again spiritual concept, but such things are possible descriptions of how it might work out in practice or literally. It wont be a case that those who are born again now are born again again when they are literally resurrected because that would be to compare spiritual with the physical/literal. Those born again now are in affect already resurrected because present and future are married concepts when it comes to the born again spiritual concept.

Perhaps I'm misreading what your getting at.

02-20-2011 12:43 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Born again?

Seraphim Wrote:
Abe I think your confusing spiritual concepts with the literal outworking of those things. People have to be physically living to be born again, and the scriptures quite clearly show that being born again happens in this earthly life dependant on true faith. That means to God they don`t die spiritually speaking. Literally speaking its a mystery how this will be realized. Soul sleep is one option, or instant resurrection to heaven or whatever, but that's not the born again spiritual concept, but such things are possible descriptions of how it might work out in practice or literally. It wont be a case that those who are born again now are born again again when they are literally resurrected because that would be to compare spiritual with the physical/literal. Those born again now are in affect already resurrected because present and future are married concepts when it comes to the born again spiritual concept.

Perhaps I'm misreading what your getting at.


Seraphim,

The reason I initiated this post is an attempt to reconcile the spiritual concepts with the literal ones.

I do not think those who claim to be "born again" are in effect already resurrected.

I think those who claim to be "born again" have faith and hope that they will be resurrected to life after they die.

The spiritual concept is the faith and hope in Jesus Christs promise.

The literal concept is when that faith and hope is actually realised.

When it is realised the faith and hope will no longer be necessary because the promise is acheived.

I believe the acheivement of that promise is still future.

Another purpose for initiating this thread is that perhaps I might benefit from the dialog which, I believe has already happened.

I am trying to reconcile what Jesus Christ said to Nicodemus with what the Apostle Paul told the Corinthians.


In Christ


abe


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02-20-2011 01:21 PM
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Seraphim
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RE: Born again?

In that case I agree with you. Thanks for coming back to me to clear that up.

It may not be possible to directly reconcile the spiritual concept with the literal one because one is a metaphor whereas the other is literal. When someone says the `watch-pot never boils` the meaning of that phrase taken literally could never be equated with reality. However the literal point of the phrase bares no relation to what it literally says. The two things operate of different spheres than cannot be directly compared.

However if the meaning of the spiritual concept is understood properly it might be possible to reconcile it with reality although not in a direct way, but that also depends on knowing the literal mechanics of the resurrection and I think we don`t know how that will play out at this time.

02-20-2011 01:39 PM
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Willa
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RE: Born again?

:) It's good to find agreement - I think we echoed each other using different wording. :)) There are a LOT of scripture verses which come to mind that can add to our understanding. I don't have time right now, but will be back. a warning and a promise, lol.


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
02-20-2011 03:07 PM
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symbiosis
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RE: Born again?

Hi everyone

this is an interesting subject,
Christ told Nicodemus
"most assuredly i say to you unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"

Nicodemus does not understand and relates it to a physical re-birth rather than a spiritual one

"how can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born?"

Christ clarifies

"Most assuredly i say to you unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God
that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" do not marvel that i said to you "you must be born again"

" the wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it but cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit"

so it seems clear that the Spirit is Key to a person being born again and i think it also shows that a person must be alive to be born again.

symbiosis

just to clarify

just re-read Willas post and i tend to see it the same as in it is initiated in this life and fulfilled in the resurrection as spirit beings into the kingdom of God.

02-21-2011 03:11 PM
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gogh
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RE: Born again?

Some scriptures,that ,imo ,may contribute to this topic...

Romans 2:28...

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Psalm 119:33...

"Teach me, O Jehovah, the way of thy statutes; And I shall keep it unto the end.
Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; Yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; For therein do I delight.
Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, And not to covetousness.
Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity, And quicken me in thy ways.
Confirm unto thy servant thy word, Which is in order unto the fear of thee.
Turn away my reproach whereof I am afraid; For thine ordinances are good.
Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: Quicken me in thy righteousness."

Psalm 143:8...

"Cause me to hear thy lovingkindness in the morning; For in thee do I trust: Cause me to know the way wherein I should walk; For I lift up my soul unto thee.
Deliver me, O Jehovah, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me.
Teach me to do thy will; For thou art my God: Thy Spirit is good; Lead me in the land of uprightness.
Quicken me, O Jehovah, for thy name's sake: In thy righteousness bring my soul out of trouble."

James 4:6...

"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore the scripture saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.
Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded.
Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall exalt you."

John 6:44...

"No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he that is from God, he hath seen the Father.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.
I am the bread of life."

Luke 22:15...

" And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: for I say unto you, I shall not eat it, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
And he received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: for I say unto you, I shall not drink from henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.
But behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined: but woe unto that man through whom he is betrayed!"

:coffeeread::heartbeat::coffeeread:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
02-21-2011 03:52 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Born again?

symbiosis Wrote:

so it seems clear that the Spirit is Key to a person being born again and i think it also shows that a person must be alive to be born again.


symbiosis,

I agree with you.

A person has to be alive in order to obey the good news.

Keep in mind however, that many who obeyed the good news are now dead.

Also, many who disobeyed the good news are also dead.

Yet the scriptures say they will both be resurrected (born again).

What next?


In Christ

abe


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02-21-2011 05:57 PM
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Seraphim
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RE: Born again?

Those who are unrighteous who are resurrected, just like those who were spiritually born again, are not born again, even though they are resurrected in my view. What is next may be either that they get sent to hell or the lake of fire, whatever we think that is or perhaps they get another chance first. If they get another then perhaps they can be born again even though they have been literally resurrected. Then the second death would seem to play a part at this stage. If they turn down the second chance this is the fate. It being a complete spiritual death without another chance and/or also complete death or eternal existence in some lake of fire. Hence I think the second death, like being born again, is primarily spiritual in application then literal.

02-21-2011 07:08 PM
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e-magine
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RE: Born again?

This is a prime example, IMO, of a quantum mechanical, or, meta-physical concept being discribed with a 3 dimensional language.
We need to realize it's metaphorical, and the true meaning comes
by Holy spirit. That is why Jesus would send the "Helper".

For all we know, the current spiritual "Born Again" and the literal future "we will be changed" are both the same thing. Like Brian said, time has no bearing on such things.


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02-21-2011 08:53 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Born again?

Seraphim Wrote:
Those who are unrighteous who are resurrected, just like those who were spiritually born again, are not born again, even though they are resurrected in my view. What is next may be either that they get sent to hell or the lake of fire, whatever we think that is or perhaps they get another chance first. If they get another then perhaps they can be born again even though they have been literally resurrected. Then the second death would seem to play a part at this stage. If they turn down the second chance this is the fate. It being a complete spiritual death without another chance and/or also complete death or eternal existence in some lake of fire. Hence I think the second death, like being born again, is primarily spiritual in application then literal.




Seraphim,

So the ones sent to hell or the lake of fire are not really born again even though resurrected?

I am thinking that if you can only be born again while alive then the same must be true about judgment.

You can only be judged while alive.

If our salvation depends on our obedience to the good news, that obedience or disobedience can only be measured through a persons lifetime.

Both the obedient and disobedient would need to be resurrected to hear that judgment.

It seems tragic that a person might be resurrected to learn that they are now irrevocably condemned to a lake of fire.

So even though resurrected they are not really born again?


In Christ

abe


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02-22-2011 10:46 AM
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