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Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God
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Interpretum
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Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Hi Folks

What was Jesus up to? :D

One time he is speaking to the crowd (Mark 8:34) and he tells them: "Truly I say to you, There are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in power." (9:1)

Surely that was instilling within the CROWDS the belief that the Kingdom would come within their lifetime?

However, ALL of the gospel writers link this statement with Jesus then PRIVATELY taking Peter, James and John along to a lofty mountain, and seeing Jesus transfigured and conversing with Elijah and Moses about his imminent departure in the cloud.

But if that's all Jesus meant by the statement (i.e. that Peter, James and John were going to see the transfiguration six or eight days later), why the drama?

Why even bother with the death comment, given the event was to happen just six/eight days later, when NONE of the disciples or apostles were in danger of their lives? Why did he take just three apostles PRIVATELY to see this vision, while leaving the CROWDS with his previous enigmatic statement?

It seems to me that Jesus was deliberately stoking in the CROWDS the belief that the Kingdom of God would arrive in power WITHIN THEIR LIFETIME.

Remember, elsewhere he said that some of his disciples wouldn't die AT ALL (John 11:26), that THIS GENERATION wouldn't pass away until all things occurred (Matt 24:34), and that the kingdom of God was NEAR, and the ax was lying at the root of the tree, a consistent message of both Jesus AND John the Baptist. (Luke 3:7-9)

I appreciate we have our own views on these scriptures, but picture yourself living at THAT TIME, and hearing those words LIVE, out of Jesus' own mouth.

How could you, in THAT situation, come to any other conclusion besides the one Jesus seemed to be stoking in his crowds of disciples... that the kingdom of God WAS about to arrive in power!

The question is... why? Why was Jesus stoking this belief?

Could it be true? Could the kingdom REALLY have come in power within their lifetime?

If not, would it be fair to say that Jesus was manipulating the crowds?

What do YOU make of Jesus' statement to the crowd, at Mark 9:1? What would that statement's impact have been upon YOU, hearing those words for the first time, and not being in his "inner circle"?


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02-27-2011 01:03 PM
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rus virgil
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Here is the answer , at least partially , to your question

see post #4
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...9#pid60429

in Christ,
rus v.

02-27-2011 01:30 PM
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knightlockX
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Folks

What was Jesus up to? :D

One time he is speaking to the crowd (Mark 8:34) and he tells them: "Truly I say to you, There are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in power." (9:1)

Surely that was instilling within the CROWDS the belief that the Kingdom would come within their lifetime?

However, ALL of the gospel writers link this statement with Jesus then PRIVATELY taking Peter, James and John along to a lofty mountain, and seeing Jesus transfigured and conversing with Elijah and Moses about his imminent departure in the cloud.

But if that's all Jesus meant by the statement (i.e. that Peter, James and John were going to see the transfiguration six or eight days later), why the drama?

Why even bother with the death comment, given the event was to happen just six/eight days later, when NONE of the disciples or apostles were in danger of their lives? Why did he take just three apostles PRIVATELY to see this vision, while leaving the CROWDS with his previous enigmatic statement?

It seems to me that Jesus was deliberately stoking in the CROWDS the belief that the Kingdom of God would arrive in power WITHIN THEIR LIFETIME.

Remember, elsewhere he said that some of his disciples wouldn't die AT ALL (John 11:26), that THIS GENERATION wouldn't pass away until all things occurred (Matt 24:34), and that the kingdom of God was NEAR, and the ax was lying at the root of the tree, a consistent message of both Jesus AND John the Baptist. (Luke 3:7-9)

I appreciate we have our own views on these scriptures, but picture yourself living at THAT TIME, and hearing those words LIVE, out of Jesus' own mouth.

How could you, in THAT situation, come to any other conclusion besides the one Jesus seemed to be stoking in his crowds of disciples... that the kingdom of God WAS about to arrive in power!

The question is... why? Why was Jesus stoking this belief?

Could it be true? Could the kingdom REALLY have come in power within their lifetime?

If not, would it be fair to say that Jesus was manipulating the crowds?

What do YOU make of Jesus' statement to the crowd, at Mark 9:1? What would that statement's impact have been upon YOU, hearing those words for the first time, and not being in his "inner circle"?


As I have said several times to others, you are correct the Kingdom of God DID start within the lifetime of the Apostles.

The problem with every other interpretation for the last two thousand years is that they have to provide enormous "scriptural hopscotch" in order to prove it. In addition, every time someone (such as the Watchtower) predicts the return of Christ, they end of with disappointment, such as in 1844.

But...

What if Jesus Christ DID return in 70 A.D.? Then not only does everything fit what Jesus Christ stated but all things that he promised came to pass. After all the term 'world' would be what the Apostles understood that to be; the World of Judea and not a global planet as we see it today.

The idea that Jesus meant the planet earth is a perfect example of "world view confusion." In short it describes a state where a person takes a story, example, teaching, out of the framework of the culture of the time and tries to place this within the context of their own experiences. This is what I believe that futurists have done for two thousand years; taken the simple notion that Jesus foretelling the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem and placed it in a foreign framework namely that God was going to destroy earth.

So why all of the insistence that Jesus return be a future one? The reason is simple... business.

The return of Jesus Christ is big business for many religions and most would not want their "cash cow" disrupted. Groups like the Adventists, Mormons, and yes Jehovah's Witnesses would all be out of luck and out of business.

After all, if the Kingdom of God started in 33 A.D. then it means that the 1914 date is wrong and that the governing body is not the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" class and their entire preaching is false. If you were them would YOU want to lose more than 1 billion dollars a year?

But if you look at all the Scriptures it shows very plainly that the Apostles expected Jesus Christ to return in their lifetime which the evidence shows that He did if you read the historians of the time such as Josephus.

In short you are correct in what you state and it is a pity that more are not willing to look at the Scriptures state as they are written.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
02-28-2011 12:11 AM
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e-magine
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

I am inclined to agree with you. It seems that most people who read the NT prophecies try to place the context of Jesus words into their own lifetime. But thats human nature!
If I was an ET and not a human, and read the NT, or even better, heard Jesus speak directly, I'm sure i would conclude he was speaking of his own generation.
Unless his words also had a double meaning, or a double fulfillment. I don't see how we could accept that there is no hope for the world today. I don't think that the Kingdom "come to Earth, as it is in Heaven" is something that happened in the first century.:happyheart:
Unfortunately, the sorry state of mankind has led to the biggest business of all, the selling of hope by increasing the fear factor. The more fear there is, the more valuable the hope.


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02-28-2011 01:11 AM
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Willa
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Quote:
Unfortunately, the sorry state of mankind has led to the biggest business of all, the selling of hope by increasing the fear factor. The more fear there is, the more valuable the hope.


A PROFOUND statement, em! So true, so true...


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
02-28-2011 10:57 AM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Interpretum,

Guess it all depends on what you think a generation is or the full extent of the questions the Apostles asked


Matthew 24:32-35
“Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also YOU, when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. 34 Truly I say to YOU that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.


In my opinion Jesus Christ is addressing people of a new generation or new age.

If you consider what Jesus Christ put into motion through his first coming then the "age" or generation had a completely different and very profound opportunity presented to them compared to the generation that preceded him.


John 11:25-27
He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God, the One coming into the world.”

The generation of people living prior to this did not have the same profound opportunity extended to them however, from Marthas statement above that previous generation realized that this profound change would come.

Even today we split the calendar into two ages or generations.

The ones which lived before Jesus Christ............. BC

The ones that are living after Jesus Christ........... AD

While initiating this new age Jesus Christ also indicated that when this newly created age ended another very amazing and more righteous age would start with his above words to Martha being finally fulfilled.

What will that age be called?

AR - after the resurrection?
AJ - after the judgement?

Jesus Christs answer to his Apostles question in Matthew 24 has a far more prodound meaning than simply the generation of people who happened to be living during his first coming. What a mundane question that would be!

He was telling them what would happen immediately prior to the next new age when that profound opportunity described to Martha and given to this generation, will become a reality.


In Christ

abe


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02-28-2011 02:40 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Now someone could argue that the BC age was split up into two other separate ages.

The pre-deluvian and the post-deluvian generation.

This would be a great opportunity for me to further support what Jesus Christ meant when he answered the Apostles question regarding the new generation to come after the generation that Jesus Christ was at that time initiating.

Matthew 24:37-39
For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

In my opinion immediately before the start of the next generation we should expect an event which is the same size in scope as that which initiated the post-deluvian generation and to come upon,................. this generation. The generation that Jesus Christ initiated with his first coming.

This generation, the generation that; "sees all these things".


In Christ

abe


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02-28-2011 03:04 PM
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knightlockX
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Now someone could argue that the BC age was split up into two other separate ages.

The pre-deluvian and the post-deluvian generation.

This would be a great opportunity for me to further support what Jesus Christ meant when he answered the Apostles question regarding the new generation to come after the generation that Jesus Christ was at that time initiating.

Matthew 24:37-39
For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

In my opinion immediately before the start of the next generation we should expect an event which is the same size in scope as that which initiated the post-deluvian generation and to come upon,................. this generation. The generation that Jesus Christ initiated with his first coming.

This generation, the generation that; "sees all these things".


In Christ

abe


The problem with this view is that the flood of Noah according to every account that I have read was a LOCAL event, not global. When God spoke to Noah, he was referring to the world in a context NOAH would have understood and NOAH would have understood the area he lived in not a global planet.

In addition, Josephus mentions that the tribulation of Jerusalem was greater than any that had taken place prior to it including the flood of Noah.

After all, by the time Noah came to the scene there were perhaps, if you do the math around 2 million people assuming that you only have Cain and Seth as the two living sons of Adam to start with. That would cover an area flood wise of not even New York.

As for the animals of the time there is a simple explaination of why they were saved as well how you could fit all of the animals into an ark of that size. The animals were hunted to near exteniction by man at the time and as a result there were simply not that many animals left. Today's extinction of many animals makes this plausable. Certainly if people can wipe out an entire ecosystem today then there is no issue with wiping out most if not all of the animals in a limited area.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
02-28-2011 04:25 PM
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knightlockX
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

e-magine Wrote:
I am inclined to agree with you. It seems that most people who read the NT prophecies try to place the context of Jesus words into their own lifetime. But thats human nature!
If I was an ET and not a human, and read the NT, or even better, heard Jesus speak directly, I'm sure i would conclude he was speaking of his own generation.
Unless his words also had a double meaning, or a double fulfillment. I don't see how we could accept that there is no hope for the world today. I don't think that the Kingdom "come to Earth, as it is in Heaven" is something that happened in the first century.:happyheart:
Unfortunately, the sorry state of mankind has led to the biggest business of all, the selling of hope by increasing the fear factor. The more fear there is, the more valuable the hope.


Depends what Jesus meant by your will on earth as it is in heaven. There are lots of interpretatons about that.

But that is another subject for another time. The point is that people have been for the last two thousand years people have been predicting Jesus' return. Isn't a little strange that they all end up being false?


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
02-28-2011 04:29 PM
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e-magine
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Yes, it is strange Knight. I find it strange that its been over 2000 years now. why so long?


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He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
02-28-2011 11:23 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

e-magine Wrote:
Yes, it is strange Knight. I find it strange that its been over 2000 years now. why so long?


Because the generation has not yet seen all those things.


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02-28-2011 11:53 PM
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knightlockX
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

ablebodiedman Wrote:

e-magine Wrote:
Yes, it is strange Knight. I find it strange that its been over 2000 years now. why so long?


Because the generation has not yet seen all those things.


The point that I am trying to make and have been making is that the generation of Israel in Jesus' time DID see all things come to pass as Jesus stated. If you read Josephus about the Great Tribulation you discover that not only did all of the signs Jesus mention come to pass including the sun being darkened and the moon not giving off its light, but that the Son of Man DID appear with great glory as Josephus mentions a great face above Jerusalem that appeared as well as a light coming into the most holy of the temple.

In short if one reads the historians at the time they discover that Jesus did in fact come back at that point.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
03-02-2011 10:02 AM
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Willa
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

What is it we're waiting for then?

Acts 1:9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Seeing 'a face' in the sky is different than a bodily arrival on clouds, no?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

What does Josephus say about that - was it also fulfilled in the first century? What I'm asking is, according to the preterist view - what's left unfulfilled, what are we looking for?

PEACE


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
03-02-2011 11:26 AM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Willa Wrote:
What is it we're waiting for then?


The end of "this generation" and the start of the next generation.

The next generation will consist of those resurrected according to Jesus Christs promise to Martha.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life


Matthew 12:39-42
In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jo´nah the prophet. 40 For just as Jo´nah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41 Men of Nin´e·veh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because they repented at what Jo´nah preached, but, look! something more than Jo´nah is here. 42 The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Sol´o·mon, but, look! something more than Sol´o·mon is here.



In Christ

abe


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03-02-2011 12:18 PM
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man hu
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

ablebodiedman Wrote:

Willa Wrote:
What is it we're waiting for then?


The end of "this generation" and the start of the next generation.



Matthew 12:39-42
In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jo´nah the prophet. 40 For just as Jo´nah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41 Men of Nin´e·veh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because they repented at what Jo´nah preached, but, look! something more than Jo´nah is here. 42 The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Sol´o·mon, but, look! something more than Sol´o·mon is here.

In Christ

This generation refers to the one that Jesus was living in, and....it has ended.

It ended within 40 years of his statement, since according to the Bible a generation is 40 years and it ended in AD70. There have been many generations before and since then.
A generation is the time within which you can generate.
The wicked generation that Jesus was alluding to, as a parallel to the one that was witnessing the amazing signs that He was providing, was the one that saw the signs of the Exodus and then died in the wilderness.
Generations have been starting and ending for thousands of years.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
03-02-2011 01:18 PM
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