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Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #16
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

man hu Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:

Willa Wrote:
What is it we're waiting for then?


The end of "this generation" and the start of the next generation.



Matthew 12:39-42
In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jo´nah the prophet. 40 For just as Jo´nah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41 Men of Nin´e·veh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because they repented at what Jo´nah preached, but, look! something more than Jo´nah is here. 42 The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Sol´o·mon, but, look! something more than Sol´o·mon is here.

In Christ

This generation refers to the one that Jesus was living in, and....it has ended.

It ended within 40 years of his statement, since according to the Bible a generation is 40 years and it ended in AD70. There have been many generations before and since then.
A generation is the time within which you can generate.
The wicked generation that Jesus was alluding to, as a parallel to the one that was witnessing the amazing signs that He was providing, was the one that saw the signs of the Exodus and then died in the wilderness.
Generations have been starting and ending for thousands of years.



Man Hu,

If that is what you believe then the world has already ended, the conclusion of the system of things.

Which is the question that Jesus Christ answered for his Apostles in Matthew Ch 24.

If that is true then Willa asks a very good question:

What is it we're waiting for then?


In Christ

abe


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03-02-2011 02:38 PM
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knightlockX
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Post: #17
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Willa Wrote:
What is it we're waiting for then?

Acts 1:9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Seeing 'a face' in the sky is different than a bodily arrival on clouds, no?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

What does Josephus say about that - was it also fulfilled in the first century? What I'm asking is, according to the preterist view - what's left unfulfilled, what are we looking for?

PEACE


My belief is that WE are not waiting for anything as Jesus was talking to the APOSTLES not us. This does not mean that we are not going to gain a reward because Jesus asked the Father that ALL who put faith in him would join him. In THAT case he was NOT simply talking to the Apostles as the Apostles were not there.

In addition if you look at MT 24 you will noticed that there is no way that it could have a future fulfillment as there was to be only ONE tribulation and that was in Judea. In fact the entire chapter of Matthew deals with the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem. If one looks at Mt 24, Lk 21, Mk in context there is really no evidence whatsoever that Jesus had anything in mind other than this.

Seeing 'a face' in the sky is different than a bodily arrival on clouds, no?

The same manner does NOT I repeat does not mean what you are thinking as Jesus body was GLORIFIED. After all the text says NOTHING about WHAT condition the body of Jesus would come back IN. All it states is that people would see him coming from the sky. In the same manner was to mean that he was going to come from the sky and this is how Josephus describes it. After all according to your view it could not have been Jesus that Paul was conversing with on the road to Damascus as he did not see a body. But what Paul DID see agrees with what Josephus describes; a glorious blinding flash of light in the Most Holy for about a half an hour the exact same light Paul saw on the road to Damascus.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
03-02-2011 04:24 PM
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Willa
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Post: #18
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

knightlockX Wrote:
After all according to your view it could not have been Jesus that Paul was conversing with on the road to Damascus as he did not see a body. But what Paul DID see agrees with what Josephus describes; a glorious blinding flash of light in the Most Holy for about a half an hour the exact same light Paul saw on the road to Damascus.

First off, you don't know what my view is. I was just asking a question. You evidently don't know I'm pretty open-minded about this stuff, lol. I've previously agreed with Interpretum on many points. :)

So again I wonder... what's left to fulfill? You said we're not waiting for anything - are we simply waiting to die to receive our reward or punishment? Has the Great Day of God's Judgment already passed? What about a grand-scale resurrection - is that symbolic in your view? What about New Jerusalem coming down from the heavens to earth - THAT hasn't happened, right? God's Kingdom does not fill the earth today... I've got a lot more questions about this, because I really do see the fulfillments which happened in the first century - but maybe it's my expectation of things which needs adjustment. Maybe I've just been taught to expect the wrong thing at the wrong time? lol. That's probably it... sounds like all of Christianity's history!

>'.'<

ps - did the 'rapture' of which Paul spoke already happen - and were thousands of Christians suddenly just gone, as he described? Or is there another explanation for that?


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
03-02-2011 05:23 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #19
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

knightlockX Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Now someone could argue that the BC age was split up into two other separate ages.

The pre-deluvian and the post-deluvian generation.

This would be a great opportunity for me to further support what Jesus Christ meant when he answered the Apostles question regarding the new generation to come after the generation that Jesus Christ was at that time initiating.

Matthew 24:37-39
For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

In my opinion immediately before the start of the next generation we should expect an event which is the same size in scope as that which initiated the post-deluvian generation and to come upon,................. this generation. The generation that Jesus Christ initiated with his first coming.

This generation, the generation that; "sees all these things".


In Christ

abe


The problem with this view is that the flood of Noah according to every account that I have read was a LOCAL event, not global. When God spoke to Noah, he was referring to the world in a context NOAH would have understood and NOAH would have understood the area he lived in not a global planet.

In addition, Josephus mentions that the tribulation of Jerusalem was greater than any that had taken place prior to it including the flood of Noah.

After all, by the time Noah came to the scene there were perhaps, if you do the math around 2 million people assuming that you only have Cain and Seth as the two living sons of Adam to start with. That would cover an area flood wise of not even New York.

As for the animals of the time there is a simple explaination of why they were saved as well how you could fit all of the animals into an ark of that size. The animals were hunted to near exteniction by man at the time and as a result there were simply not that many animals left. Today's extinction of many animals makes this plausable. Certainly if people can wipe out an entire ecosystem today then there is no issue with wiping out most if not all of the animals in a limited area.



knightlockX

You must be reading a different bible to me.

Genesis 6:17
“And as for me, here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens. Everything that is in the earth will expire.



Matthew 24:19-21
Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.


So I expect the great tribulation Jesus Christ is referring to here will be greater in scope than Noah's flood.

Which is indeed the tribulation event he chooses to make a comparison with:

Matthew 24:37-39
For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them ALL away,


In Christ

abe


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03-02-2011 05:41 PM
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knightlockX
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Post: #20
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

ablebodiedman Wrote:

knightlockX Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Now someone could argue that the BC age was split up into two other separate ages.

The pre-deluvian and the post-deluvian generation.

This would be a great opportunity for me to further support what Jesus Christ meant when he answered the Apostles question regarding the new generation to come after the generation that Jesus Christ was at that time initiating.

Matthew 24:37-39
For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

In my opinion immediately before the start of the next generation we should expect an event which is the same size in scope as that which initiated the post-deluvian generation and to come upon,................. this generation. The generation that Jesus Christ initiated with his first coming.

This generation, the generation that; "sees all these things".


In Christ

abe


The problem with this view is that the flood of Noah according to every account that I have read was a LOCAL event, not global. When God spoke to Noah, he was referring to the world in a context NOAH would have understood and NOAH would have understood the area he lived in not a global planet.

In addition, Josephus mentions that the tribulation of Jerusalem was greater than any that had taken place prior to it including the flood of Noah.

After all, by the time Noah came to the scene there were perhaps, if you do the math around 2 million people assuming that you only have Cain and Seth as the two living sons of Adam to start with. That would cover an area flood wise of not even New York.

As for the animals of the time there is a simple explaination of why they were saved as well how you could fit all of the animals into an ark of that size. The animals were hunted to near exteniction by man at the time and as a result there were simply not that many animals left. Today's extinction of many animals makes this plausable. Certainly if people can wipe out an entire ecosystem today then there is no issue with wiping out most if not all of the animals in a limited area.



knightlockX

You must be reading a different bible to me.

Genesis 6:17
“And as for me, here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens. Everything that is in the earth will expire.



Matthew 24:19-21
Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.


So I expect the great tribulation Jesus Christ is referring to here will be greater in scope than Noah's flood.

Which is indeed the tribulation event he chooses to make a comparison with:

Matthew 24:37-39
For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them ALL away,


In Christ

abe


No reading the same Bible but like I stated earth had a different meaning than it does today. Earth as Noah would have understood it would have been indicative of what he observed around him. He nor anyone else at the time had any idea of a global planet.

Right Great tribulation IN JUDEA. Read the entire thing in context...

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

Lk 21

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The account in Luke shows EXACTLY what Jesus meant; there would be a great distress for the INHABITANTS OF JUDEA AND ITS PEOPLE.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
03-02-2011 06:01 PM
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man hu
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Post: #21
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Quote:
Man Hu,
If that is what you believe then the world has already ended, the conclusion of the system of things.

Which is the question that Jesus Christ answered for his Apostles in Matthew Ch 24.

If that is true then Willa asks a very good question:

What is it we're waiting for then?
In Christ
abe



??????????

Are you saying a generation genea is the same as an aionos?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
03-02-2011 06:06 PM
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knightlockX
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Post: #22
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Willa Wrote:

knightlockX Wrote:
After all according to your view it could not have been Jesus that Paul was conversing with on the road to Damascus as he did not see a body. But what Paul DID see agrees with what Josephus describes; a glorious blinding flash of light in the Most Holy for about a half an hour the exact same light Paul saw on the road to Damascus.

First off, you don't know what my view is. I was just asking a question. You evidently don't know I'm pretty open-minded about this stuff, lol. I've previously agreed with Interpretum on many points. :)

So again I wonder... what's left to fulfill? You said we're not waiting for anything - are we simply waiting to die to receive our reward or punishment? Has the Great Day of God's Judgment already passed? What about a grand-scale resurrection - is that symbolic in your view? What about New Jerusalem coming down from the heavens to earth - THAT hasn't happened, right? God's Kingdom does not fill the earth today... I've got a lot more questions about this, because I really do see the fulfillments which happened in the first century - but maybe it's my expectation of things which needs adjustment. Maybe I've just been taught to expect the wrong thing at the wrong time? lol. That's probably it... sounds like all of Christianity's history!

>'.'<

ps - did the 'rapture' of which Paul spoke already happen - and were thousands of Christians suddenly just gone, as he described? Or is there another explanation for that?


Please understand Willa I am by no means attacking you. I just deal with a lot of people that seem to get defensive when I state the above. :friends:


Believe me when I tell you that I know how you feel as my view needed adjustment but when the Scriptures state something very clearly I try to listen to what they state. If you read the accounts in Matthew, Mark, and Luke carefully there is no evidence that there is a future fulfillment.

Don't get me wrong, that does not mean that Jesus could not return at some point as I feel that Rev 21 has YET to be fulfilled. The reason for this is that the scriptures state that the reign of Christ is THOUSANDS of years in length not a thousand (the Greek word it uses is plural.)

My view is that we are gaining a heavenly resurrection just as Paul stated that we would.

To answer your question

ps - did the 'rapture' of which Paul spoke already happen - and were thousands of Christians suddenly just gone, as he described? Or is there another explanation for that?

My belief is yes which would explain why there is a gap in Christian writings for over a century. From the time after 70 A.D. There was an apparent "space" where no Christian writers wrote anything and did not pick up until about 170 A.D. (I think.)

Scholars have no idea why this gap is there. The only thing I can figure is that the Christians were taken to the Lord.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
03-02-2011 06:12 PM
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man hu
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Post: #23
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

The rapture of Jesus, Moses and Elijah (symbolic), takes place at the blast of the seventh trumpet, all together, at the same time as Thessalonians tells us, and needs to be witnessed by the Elisha group for them to perform miracles.
Knightlock when did the opening of the seven seals and six other trumpets take place?
vix


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03-02-2011 06:37 PM
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knightlockX
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Post: #24
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

man hu Wrote:
The rapture of Jesus, Moses and Elijah, takes place at the blast of the seventh trumpet, all together, at the same time as Thessalonians tells us, and needs to be witnessed by the Elisha group for them to perform miracles.
Knightlock when did the opening of the seven seals and six other trumpets take place?
vix


That would take a WHILE to explain as I don't have Josephus book any longer. If you really wish to know I CAN get the information but it will take a few days to get together the information. But I will do my best to give it to you if you wish.

However I would recommend you reading it yourself and coming to your own conclusions as you would know then whether what I was saying is true. As the account is thirty to forty pages in length that would be the better way. I can however give you certain areas namely...

During that remarkable disruption of the order of things that night, some of the Zealots in the temple managed to go out unnoticed, and open the city gates to the Idumaeans. The zealots and the Idumaeans then joined together and during the upheaval attacked their opponents who were guarding the temple. “And now the outer temple was all of it overflowed with blood (see Rev. 11:2) and that day, as it came on, saw 8,500 dead bodies there” (Josephus Wars 4.5.1) (see Rev. 11:13).

And war 6 where it talks about False Prophets in Jerusalem.

Also the night that the light in the temple was moonless which would fulfill Jesus words that the sun would be darkened and that the moon did not give off its light.

But like I said the account is quite long so going over it here would be difficult.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
03-02-2011 06:39 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #25
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

knightlockX Wrote:
No reading the same Bible but like I stated earth had a different meaning than it does today. Earth as Noah would have understood it would have been indicative of what he observed around him. He nor anyone else at the time had any idea of a global planet.


knightlockX,

Actually it would be earth as God understood it.

Also earth as Jesus Christ would understand it:

Matthew 24:38-39
and they took no note until the flood came and swept them ALL away,


Also if the only land they could find to put the boat on was a mountain top then I think it is very indicative of how extensive the flood was.

You are hanging your preterist idea on a very loose assumption.

You are assuming that the seige of Jerusalem was a greater tribulation than a planet wide flood that destroyed every living thing except 8 people and a small bunch of animals.


In Christ


abe


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03-02-2011 09:57 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #26
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

man hu Wrote:

Quote:
Man Hu,
If that is what you believe then the world has already ended, the conclusion of the system of things.

Which is the question that Jesus Christ answered for his Apostles in Matthew Ch 24.

If that is true then Willa asks a very good question:

What is it we're waiting for then?
In Christ
abe

??????????

Are you saying a generation genea is the same as an aionos?



Man Hu,

I am saying that Jesus Christ was using the word "generation" to indicate everyone who lived from the time he spoke those words to the time he returned at the end of the world.

The entire gereration of people to which he extended his promise to Martha:

John 11:25
Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life


The generation that would see all the things Jesus Christ explained would need to happen before the end of the world:

Matthew 24:3
While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

Yes, you can give us all the dictionary definitions of those Greek words but it will still not help in the context of the question the Apostles asked and the answer Jesus Christ gave.


If generation means only 40 years in the context of Jesus Christs words then it appears that the world has already ended.



In Christ

abe


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03-02-2011 10:23 PM
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e-magine
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Post: #27
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Knight, You can't take the 3 gospel accounts strictly on a Preterist, literal view with no room for also a future fulfillment, because so much of what Jesus said is obviously not ment to be understood literally.
How did the 1st Cent Christians literally do this?:
" But anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise that person at the last day."
So much of what Jesus said was ment on a quantum level.


avatar:
Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
03-02-2011 10:43 PM
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e-magine
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

abe, That is an interesting view as to the meaning of "generation"
Makes more sense then the WT baloney.


avatar:
Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
03-02-2011 10:48 PM
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knightlockX
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Post: #29
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

e-magine Wrote:
Knight, You can't take the 3 gospel accounts strictly on a Preterist, literal view with no room for also a future fulfillment, because so much of what Jesus said is obviously not ment to be understood literally.
How did the 1st Cent Christians literally do this?:
" But anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise that person at the last day."
So much of what Jesus said was ment on a quantum level.


You mean twist the scriptures like so many have done in the past? No thanks. The first words that any cult starts with...

Jesus really did not mean it like you read. He really meant it THIS way. That is why you have so many failed prophecies, twisting of scripture, etc. It was that mentality that brought forth groups like the WTBTS.

John Chapter 21 shows that what Jesus said he really meant.

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”


What Jesus says it the way that he means and John warns against trying to go beyond what he says. And that is exactly what I am going to do.

The original church btw did see that they were eating his actual flesh and drinking his acutal blood. It is called the transubstitution.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
03-02-2011 11:20 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

e-magine Wrote:
abe, That is an interesting view as to the meaning of "generation"
Makes more sense then the WT baloney.


e-magine,

After abandoning the WT literature and prayerfully reading the bible myself I have forgotten much of what I learned from the WT.

It is nice to find a place where bible research and Christian encouragement actually happens.


In Christ

abe


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03-02-2011 11:23 PM
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