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Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God
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gogh
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Post: #31
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

:drinking::coffeeread::drinking:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
03-02-2011 11:31 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #32
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

gogh Wrote:
:drinking::coffeeread::drinking:



What?

No Hank Williams Interlude?

.


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03-03-2011 12:16 AM
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e-magine
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Post: #33
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

knightlockX Wrote:

e-magine Wrote:
Knight, You can't take the 3 gospel accounts strictly on a Preterits, literal view with no room for also a future fulfillment, because so much of what Jesus said is obviously not ment to be understood literally.
How did the 1st Cent Christians literally do this?:
" But anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise that person at the last day."
So much of what Jesus said was ment on a quantum level.


You mean twist the scriptures like so many have done in the past? No thanks. The first words that any cult starts with...

Jesus really did not mean it like you read. He really meant it THIS way. That is why you have so many failed prophecies, twisting of scripture, etc. It was that mentality that brought forth groups like the WTBTS.

What Jesus says it the way that he means and John warns against trying to go beyond what he says. And that is exactly what I am going to do.

The original church btw did see that they were eating his actual flesh and drinking his acutal blood. It is called the transubstitution.


Hi Knight!
Of course many cults twist the scriptures, but some can twist them to mean a literal understanding when clearly the context shows it's not ment literally. The scriptures can be twisted either way.

Matthew 13:34 (New Living Translation)

34 Jesus always used stories and illustrations like these when speaking to the crowds. In fact, he never spoke to them without using such parables.

Math 24:45 is such a parable, and look how the WT has twisted it!

The idea of Transubstantiation is twisted!


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He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
03-03-2011 11:41 AM
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knightlockX
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Post: #34
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

e-magine Wrote:

knightlockX Wrote:

e-magine Wrote:
Knight, You can't take the 3 gospel accounts strictly on a Preterits, literal view with no room for also a future fulfillment, because so much of what Jesus said is obviously not ment to be understood literally.
How did the 1st Cent Christians literally do this?:
" But anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise that person at the last day."
So much of what Jesus said was ment on a quantum level.


You mean twist the scriptures like so many have done in the past? No thanks. The first words that any cult starts with...

Jesus really did not mean it like you read. He really meant it THIS way. That is why you have so many failed prophecies, twisting of scripture, etc. It was that mentality that brought forth groups like the WTBTS.

What Jesus says it the way that he means and John warns against trying to go beyond what he says. And that is exactly what I am going to do.

The original church btw did see that they were eating his actual flesh and drinking his acutal blood. It is called the transubstitution.


Hi Knight!
Of course many cults twist the scriptures, but some can twist them to mean a literal understanding when clearly the context shows it's not ment literally. The scriptures can be twisted either way.

Matthew 13:34 (New Living Translation)

34 Jesus always used stories and illustrations like these when speaking to the crowds. In fact, he never spoke to them without using such parables.

Math 24:45 is such a parable, and look how the WT has twisted it!

The idea of Transubstantiation is twisted!


Yes I agree with what you are saying but please look at the rest of that scripture in Mark 4

33 With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. 34 He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.

So in while it is true that he explained things in parables and symbolic language to the crowds he said exactly what he meant to his deciples.

So here is a quick question. To whom was Jesus talking to at the Mount of Olives at MT 24? His Apostles and as a result he would have said exactly what he meant as he explained everything to them plainly.

So Mt 24 does NOT have a symbolic fulfillment.

In addition, I have read the teachings of the Church Fathers who knew the Apostles directly, they saw it all the same way and that it was in fact the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

But since you say that it is twisted please give me your evidence that this is the case and I will listen.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
03-03-2011 02:03 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Knight, You said,
" But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.

So in while it is true that he explained things in parables and symbolic language to the crowds he said exactly what he meant to his disciples.

So here is a quick question. To whom was Jesus talking to at the Mount of Olives at MT 24? His Apostles and as a result he would have said exactly what he meant as he explained everything to them plainly.

So Mt 24 does NOT have a symbolic fulfillment."

OK, lets reason on this. If Jesus spoke literally only to his disciples,
don't you think it reasonable to conclude that they would follow his example when writing for the general public? Of course they would.
That leaves the understanding of the deeper meaning of scripture up to the Holy Spirit to reveal to his future believers.

I know you realize this but I write so that all will understand that it takes more then a cursory read to understand the Bible, it takes the Holy Spirit.

Also, we fall into a trap if we conclude that everything the first century Christians did was proper and correct and therefore we should emulate them. Remember that the "mystery of the man-of-lawlessness" was already at work among them before 70CE.

I'm not discounting a first cent fulfillment in Judea, but I think it was a foreshadowing of things to come world wide.


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Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
03-03-2011 04:31 PM
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knightlockX
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Post: #36
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

e-magine Wrote:
Knight, You said,
" But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.

So in while it is true that he explained things in parables and symbolic language to the crowds he said exactly what he meant to his disciples.

So here is a quick question. To whom was Jesus talking to at the Mount of Olives at MT 24? His Apostles and as a result he would have said exactly what he meant as he explained everything to them plainly.

So Mt 24 does NOT have a symbolic fulfillment."

OK, lets reason on this. If Jesus spoke literally only to his disciples,
don't you think it reasonable to conclude that they would follow his example when writing for the general public? Of course they would.
That leaves the understanding of the deeper meaning of scripture up to the Holy Spirit to reveal to his future believers.

I know you realize this but I write so that all will understand that it takes more then a cursory read to understand the Bible, it takes the Holy Spirit.

Also, we fall into a trap if we conclude that everything the first century Christians did was proper and correct and therefore we should emulate them. Remember that the "mystery of the man-of-lawlessness" was already at work among them before 70CE.

I'm not discounting a first cent fulfillment in Judea, but I think it was a foreshadowing of things to come world wide.


Show me one scripture that states to the effect..."Jesus spoke to the deciples but he was speaking to them symbolically and left his interpretation for future generations."

You have no scriptural proof or backing. Only an opinion which is nowhere near enough. I have scriptural backing that Jesus meant what he stated. Show me ONCE where any other view is backed by scripture.

To be blunt what you and I think is unimportant. It is what Jesus stated and how. I am ,simply put, not willing to go beyond the things as they are written. If that is what others do then that is their right but keep in mind that those who do and teach a false doctrine because of their opinion will be judged for it.

Every person who has tried to predict a future return of Christ because of their personal scriptural interpolation has done enormous damage and I refuse to add to that damage by trying to speculate on exact what Jesus meant other than what and how he said it.

This is why you have thousands of sects, cults, denominations. It 's why you have the Baptists refusing to drink wine. It is why you had the Miller movement falsely predicting the return of Christ. It is why you had Russell preaching that in 1874 Jesus returned. It is why you have the Church of Christ expelling people because someone does not partake correctly and it is the reason that you have the Witnesses denying Christ by not partaking at all. It is the reason that you had the entire reformation.

It is the reason that you have Waco, Jones Town, and a whole plethora of suicide cults. It is the reason that you had the schism of the Church of the East and the Church of the West. It is the reason that you have people saying we are still under the law. It is the reason that you have people teaching that the Bible is the tree of knowledge of good and bad and Jesus' teaching were the good and Paul's letters were the bad. It is the reason you have people teaching that the God of Old Testament is not the same as the God of the New Testament. It ALL OF THIS, ALL OF IT was because someone decided that it was Christ's will to give private interpolation to them and because of this all of the mess for the last two thousand years followed.

Do I really need to go on? To be frank the only trap I see is the idea that Jesus meant anything more than he stated and two thousand years of mess not to mention the Scriptures themselves back this view.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
03-03-2011 05:54 PM
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gogh
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Post: #37
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Only after Jesus death and subsequent resurrection did his disciples start to understand things spoken to them by our Lord...

Luke 24:30...

"While he was at the table with them, he took the bread, blessed it, broke it in pieces, and gave it to them.
Then their eyes were opened, and they knew who he was. And he vanished from them.
Then they said to each other, "Our hearts kept burning within us as he was talking to us on the road and explaining the Scriptures to us, didn't they?"


:coffeeread:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
03-03-2011 06:08 PM
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knightlockX
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Post: #38
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

gogh Wrote:
Only after Jesus death and subsequent resurrection did his disciples start to understand things spoken to them by our Lord...

Luke 24:30...

"While he was at the table with them, he took the bread, blessed it, broke it in pieces, and gave it to them.
Then their eyes were opened, and they knew who he was. And he vanished from them.
Then they said to each other, "Our hearts kept burning within us as he was talking to us on the road and explaining the Scriptures to us, didn't they?"


:coffeeread:


Note that who he was talking to was before 70 A.D. so the point that you are trying to make is moot as of course he was going to revealing things to them after his ressurection.

Look if you guys want to go beyond the things written and add your own private opinion and add to the mess then be my guest as you don't want to hear that Jesus came back in 70 A.D. But what Jesus stated was the end of the age was associated with the destruction of the temple and that is what I am going to listen to.

After all if Jesus Christ himself can't convince you then neither can I.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
03-03-2011 06:36 PM
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e-magine
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Post: #39
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

There's your proof Knoght!
gogh showed you one scripture that proves the disciples didn't understand what he ment when he was talking to them. Even when he was being literal..... Here's more:

John 14:6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.”

9 Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don’t know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?
Philip didn't get it!....more:

John 10 “I tell you the truth, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber! 2 But the one who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. .... 6 Those who heard Jesus use this illustration didn’t understand what he meant, 7 so he explained it to them: “I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.

How did his disciples understand these words to them:
Luke21:33... 29 Then he gave them this illustration: “Notice the fig tree, or any other tree. 30 When the leaves come out, you know without being told that summer is near. 31 In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that the Kingdom of God is near. 32 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things have taken place. 33 Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.
Did Jesus mean that Heaven and earth would disappear in 70CE.?

I share your angst about organized religion though. :thumbup:


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Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
03-03-2011 07:00 PM
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knightlockX
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Post: #40
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

There's your proof Knoght!
gogh showed you one scripture that proves the disciples didn't understand what he ment when he was talking to them. Even when he was being literal..... Here's more:

John 14:6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.”

9 Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don’t know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?
Philip didn't get it!....more:

Yes the Father literally did Dwell in the Son; [b]GOD IN THE FLESH. Its called the Incarnation.[/b]

John 10 “I tell you the truth, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber! 2 But the one who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. .... 6 Those who heard Jesus use this illustration didn’t understand what he meant, 7 so he explained it to them: “I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.

He was talking to the Pharisees at the time not the disciples.

How did his disciples understand these words to them:
Luke21:33... 29 Then he gave them this illustration: “Notice the fig tree, or any other tree. 30 When the leaves come out, you know without being told that summer is near. 31 In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that the Kingdom of God is near. 32 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things have taken place. 33 Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.
Did Jesus mean that Heaven and earth would disappear in 70CE.?

Look at the context (once again) Jesus is talking about Judea. I don't know how many times I have explained that earth would have been what they would have understood it to mean...the land of Judea. And it is pass away. I have never seen a translation that says disappear. What translation are you using?

Also keep in mind that the Holy Spirit had not yet been poured upon the deciples as Jesus had not yet been glorified. They did not get understanding until after Pentecost.

After Pentecost every scripture that I have read indicates the same thing that the end times was in their lifetime.

I share your angst about organized religion though. :thumbup:


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
03-03-2011 08:12 PM
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gogh
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Post: #41
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

Luke 22:15...

"He said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover meal with you before I suffer.
For I tell you, I will never again eat one until it finds its fulfillment in the kingdom of God."
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, "Take this and share it among yourselves.
For I tell you, from now on I will never drink the product of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

:drinking:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
03-03-2011 08:32 PM
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knightlockX
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Post: #42
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

gogh Wrote:
Luke 22:15...

"He said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover meal with you before I suffer.
For I tell you, I will never again eat one until it finds its fulfillment in the kingdom of God."
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, "Take this and share it among yourselves.
For I tell you, from now on I will never drink the product of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

:drinking:


Look at the end of John...

John 19

28 Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Jesus Drank from the product of the vine on the Cross right before he died. That would show that the Kingdom of God began on the Cross.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
03-03-2011 09:03 PM
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gogh
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Post: #43
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

knightlockX; do you teach the following scripture has been fulfilled?

(Luke 13:29...)

"People will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will eat in the kingdom of God.
You see, some who are last will be first, and some who are first will be last."

???

:coffeeread:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
03-03-2011 09:24 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

knightlockX Wrote:
Pay attention Knight!John 14:6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.[c] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.”

9 Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don’t know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?
Philip didn't get it!....more:

Yes the Father literally did Dwell in the Son; [b]GOD IN THE FLESH. Its called the Incarnation.[/b]

I guess I wasn't clear. If Jesus had been talking to Philip literally, why didn't Philip understand?
John 10 “I tell you the truth, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber! 2 But the one who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. .... 6 Those who heard Jesus use this illustration didn’t understand what he meant, 7 so he explained it to them: “I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.
....Those who heard Jesus included his deciples.
He was talking to the Pharisees at the time not the disciples.

How did his disciples understand these words to them:
Luke21:33... 29 Then he gave them this illustration: “Notice the fig tree, or any other tree. 30 When the leaves come out, you know without being told that summer is near. 31 In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that the Kingdom of God is near. 32 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things have taken place. 33 Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.
Did Jesus mean that Heaven and earth would disappear in 70CE.?
Look at the context (once again) Jesus is talking about Judea. I don't know how many times I have explained that earth would have been what they would have understood it to mean...the land of Judea. And it is pass away. I have never seen a translation that says disappear. What translation are you using?
...New living Trans. I think "pass away" is better.
Why would you think that they would think that "Earth" was only Judah????


Also keep in mind that the Holy Spirit had not yet been poured upon the disciples as Jesus had not yet been glorified. They did not get understanding until after Pentecost.

If he was speaking literally to them as you say, they wouldn't need the HS to understand.

After Pentecost every scripture that I have read indicates the same thing that the end times was in their lifetime.

The Jewish system end time, but not for "every living person"
Was Jesus speaking literally about the destruction of the Temple when he said this:
Lk 21: 6 “The time is coming when all these things will be completely demolished. Not one stone will be left on top of another!"
The wailing wall is still standing.

I share your angst about organized religion though. :thumbup:


avatar:
Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
03-03-2011 09:35 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #45
RE: Some Will Not Taste Death Until They See The Kingdom Of God

knightlockX Wrote:
How did his disciples understand these words to them:
Luke21:33... 29 Then he gave them this illustration: “Notice the fig tree, or any other tree. 30 When the leaves come out, you know without being told that summer is near. 31 In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that the Kingdom of God is near. 32 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things have taken place. 33 Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.

Did Jesus mean that Heaven and earth would disappear in 70CE.?


knightlockX,

Jesus meant that the end of the world, heaven and earth disappearing would happen once "this generation" had see all those things taking place.

Did that happen in 70CE?

Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Was there a tribulation event bigger than Noah's Flood that has ever happened?

The correct answer is no.

This means that the event is still future.

Which also means that "this generation" includes everybody who has lived since the time he spoke those words.

It includes you and I.

Yes, we should still be in expectation of an earth wide event which will surpass Noah's Flood.

The Apostle Peter seemed well aware of that future event:


2 Peter 3:8-13
However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which [the] heavens being on fire will be dissolved and [the] elements being intensely hot will melt! 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.



So if the end of the world happened in 70 CE are we now living in that new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwells?


In Christ

abe


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03-03-2011 09:39 PM
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