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When is Death Just?
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Totaldismay
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Post: #1
When is Death Just?

Just wondering how many feel that violence and death are beyond GOD?

I am finding that some people seem to think they have higher morals then GOD.

Some seem to take Jesus as an all help and Love type.

What do you think?

this is all relative to what we each belive Death to be as well so please clarify if you will.

I think if we do not stand up for what is right we are clearly part of the problem. thou it may be at different levels of apathy.

03-14-2011 04:38 PM
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Mavos
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RE: When is Death Just?

When it comes to morality, I think we shouldn't demand that God should act and conform to our idea of right, and do what seems proper to us! God does whatsoever pleases Him, and because it pleases Him, it is by definition equitable and right. Right and wrong are determined by God, and not by us. If it can be proven from the Bible that God considers death just in certain circumstances, then we have no right, as mere creatures, to stand in judgment of God. In my opinion, judging God by our fallen human notions of justice is the height of arrogance. If God does it, it's right, despite what we may think about it. We may not be able to reconcile everything. Sometimes this is a faith issue. Are we going to argue with God, or trust him?

"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" - Genesis 18:25 (KJV)


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
03-14-2011 04:58 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: When is Death Just?

Totaldisamy,

When is death just?

Romans 5:12-14
That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13 For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come.


Since Adam, death has always been the penalty.

Even if an individual does not sin.



In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
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03-14-2011 05:09 PM
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Mavos
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RE: When is Death Just?

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Totaldisamy,

When is death just?

Romans 5:12-14
That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13 For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come.


Since Adam, death has always been the penalty.

Even if an individual does not sin.



In Christ

abe


:shocked: I think.... I... actuallly.... agr...ee... with... you! :shocked:

Do you deserve to get a ....

Amen.

...Maybe it is the end of the world!....

:confused:

Matt :hug:


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
03-14-2011 05:12 PM
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Totaldismay
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RE: When is Death Just?

So Adam/Eve got the death penalty for taking something that did not belong them, and all their children recieved the same death penalty.

Hmm, that doesn't seem fair or just?

we would not impose such a penalty in our society where I live. In fact even physical punishment wouldn't go over where I live.

Right or wrong we would in fact as a group condem GOD himself for what he has done in the bible.

So is it that the bible writers took their own liberty's and wrote what they felt?
Is scripture inspired of GOD?

what in fact justifies the Death sentence?

IF I think no living creature should be harmed and yet another man hunts to eat am I right and he is wrong?
If I feel that my level of morality is high enough yet another man feels I am without a moral concience do I deserve death? adultery? slander?
they recieved a horrible death sentence at one time.
Now people seem to do both just as quickly as brush their teeth.

I am a sinner and GOD has not given me those extremes? is he saving a quake, storm for me?
when does he use that method of punishment?

He did not destroy ninevah cause they had repentance?
maybe GOD's justice has alot to do with attitude?
Just a thought

03-14-2011 06:30 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #6
RE: When is Death Just?

Totaldismay Wrote:
He did not destroy ninevah cause they had repentance?
maybe GOD's justice has alot to do with attitude?
Just a thought



Yep - there is a lot more to it than meets the eye.


God isnt some unreasonable infant.


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


03-15-2011 03:20 AM
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Seraphim
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RE: When is Death Just?

Where to start with a thread this deep?

To get out of the logic loop that the issues it generates cause, a new way of thinking is needed. At the heart of the issue is the theological truth that God is morally superior to man. He is said to be more forgiving, more kind, more merciful, more fair, more impartial ect than man.

Here is a clue. Totaldismay noted that it didn't seem fair that Adams children should be punished for their fathers sin.

Now forgive me for quoting the whole chapter but its well worth reading:

Quote:
Eze 18:1 The LORD said:
Eze 18:2 Ezekiel, I hear the people of Israel using the old saying, "Sour grapes eaten by parents leave a sour taste in the mouths of their children."
Eze 18:3 Now tell them that I am the LORD God, and as surely as I live, that saying will no longer be used in Israel.
Eze 18:4 The lives of all people belong to me--parents as well as children. Only those who sin will be put to death.
Eze 18:5 Suppose there is a truly good man who always does what is fair and right.
Eze 18:6 He refuses to eat meat sacrificed to foreign gods at local shrines or to worship Israel's idols. He doesn't have sex with someone else's wife or with a woman having her monthly period.
Eze 18:7 He never cheats or robs anyone and always returns anything taken as security for a loan; he gives food and clothes to the poor
Eze 18:8 and doesn't charge interest when lending money. He refuses to do anything evil; he is fair to everyone
Eze 18:9 and faithfully obeys my laws and teachings. This man is good, and I promise he will live.
Eze 18:10 But suppose this good man has an evil son who is violent and commits sins
Eze 18:11 his father never did. He eats meat at local shrines, has sex with someone else's wife,
Eze 18:12 cheats the poor, and robs people. He keeps what is given to him as security for a loan. He worships idols, does disgusting things,
Eze 18:13 and charges high interest when lending money. An evil man like that will certainly not live. He is the one who has done these horrible sins, so it's his own fault that he will be put to death.
Eze 18:14 But suppose this evil man has a son who sees his father do these things and refuses to act like him.
Eze 18:15 He doesn't eat meat at local shrines or worship Israel's idols, and he doesn't have sex with someone else's wife.
Eze 18:16 He never cheats or robs anyone and doesn't even demand security for a loan. He gives food and clothes to the poor
Eze 18:17 and refuses to do anything evil or to charge interest. And he obeys all my laws and teachings. Such a man will live. His own father sinned, but this good man will not be put to death for the sins of his father.
Eze 18:18 It is his father who will die for cheating and robbing and doing evil.
Eze 18:19 You may wonder why a son isn't punished for the sins of his father. It is because the son does what is right and obeys my laws.
Eze 18:20 Only those who sin will be put to death. Children won't suffer for the sins of their parents, and parents won't suffer for the sins of their children. Good people will be rewarded for what they do, and evil people will be punished for what they do.
Eze 18:21 Suppose wicked people stop sinning and start obeying my laws and doing right. They won't be put to death.
Eze 18:22 All their sins will be forgiven, and they will live because they did right.
Eze 18:23 I, the LORD God, don't like to see wicked people die. I enjoy seeing them turn from their sins and live.
Eze 18:24 But when good people start sinning and doing disgusting things, will they live? No! All their good deeds will be forgotten, and they will be put to death because of their sins.
Eze 18:25 You people of Israel accuse me of being unfair! But listen--I'm not unfair; you are!
Eze 18:26 If good people start doing evil, they must be put to death, because they have sinned.
Eze 18:27 And if wicked people start doing right, they will save themselves from punishment.
Eze 18:28 They will think about what they've done and stop sinning, and so they won't be put to death.
Eze 18:29 But you still say that I am unfair. You are the ones who have done wrong and are unfair!
Eze 18:30 I will judge each of you for what you've done. So stop sinning, or else you will certainly be punished.
Eze 18:31 Give up your evil ways and start thinking pure thoughts. And be faithful to me! Do you really want to be put to death for your sins?
Eze 18:32 I, the LORD God, don't want to see that happen to anyone. So stop sinning and live!


Clue number one is that God doesn't punish children for parents sin. Clue number two is that there is a difference between spiritual death and physical death. Clue number three is that a justice system with laws are always relative systems and imperfect because they cannot cover all circumstances although needed for order and protection of the greater number, hence the need for law in the heart. Clue number four is that much of the creation account in Genesis is getting over spiritual theological truth, not literal historical truth. Clue number five is that God works with man on his terms via a progressive revelation. Put all these clues together and one can begin to see how wise and just God really is, and that he truly is more moral than we are. There are many more clues but that's enough for the moment I reckon, and many wont be able to cope with those.

03-15-2011 08:55 AM
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Mavos
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Post: #8
RE: When is Death Just?

Totaldismay Wrote:
So Adam/Eve got the death penalty for taking something that did not belong them, and all their children recieved the same death penalty.

Hmm, that doesn't seem fair or just?

we would not impose such a penalty in our society where I live. In fact even physical punishment wouldn't go over where I live.

Right or wrong we would in fact as a group condem GOD himself for what he has done in the bible.

So is it that the bible writers took their own liberty's and wrote what they felt?
Is scripture inspired of GOD?

what in fact justifies the Death sentence?

IF I think no living creature should be harmed and yet another man hunts to eat am I right and he is wrong?
If I feel that my level of morality is high enough yet another man feels I am without a moral concience do I deserve death? adultery? slander?
they recieved a horrible death sentence at one time.
Now people seem to do both just as quickly as brush their teeth.

I am a sinner and GOD has not given me those extremes? is he saving a quake, storm for me?
when does he use that method of punishment?

He did not destroy ninevah cause they had repentance?
maybe GOD's justice has alot to do with attitude?
Just a thought


I understand your concern my friend, however, if you reject the idea that we are guilty in Adam, then you have to reject the opposite as well. What do I mean? Well simply put, if you look at the last half of Romans chapter 5 it becomes clear that the way death is passed to us from Adam is the way life is passed to us from Christ. If you think one is unfair you are forced to think both are unfair. Why should I be guilty of Adam's sin? Well, why should you be pronounced innocent because of Jesus death and resurrection? It's the same thing. If we don't inherit guilt from Adam, then we don't inherit life from Christ. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV) The last half of Romans five is all about this.

If then, sin and death are passed to us from Adam is the exact same way righteousness and life are passed to us from Christ, how is that?

It has to do with COVENANT. Adam was our "Covenant head", our "Federal head", or our "Federal Representative". All of humanity was represented in Adam. We are familiar with this sort of thing. Our government is based upon Federal Representation. Our elected officials go to Parliament or Congress in our place. They represent their constituents. We are all Adam's constituents. God made an agreement, a covenant with Adam and all humanity in Adam. Adam broke that covenant knowing full well that the consequences that "breach of contract" would have for his posterity. But he didn't care.

Christ is the last Adam. God has provided him to take the punishments stipulated in the Ademic Covenant. The Covenant with Adam required two things: obedience and death if you failed. Christ gave perfect obedience, and then died as our representative. Now that the conditions of the Ademic Covenant have been satisfied in Christ, God offers a New Covenant in Christ. Christ becomes our new Federal Head and Representative. His obedience and life become ours. The key here is if Christ is going to be our Federal Representative, then we have to be in Christ. We have to die with him in his death, and rise with him in his resurrection. The Spirit makes those in Christ into a New Creation and a New Humanity with a New Covenant.

Hope that helps!
Matt


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
03-15-2011 10:02 AM
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Seraphim
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Post: #9
RE: When is Death Just?

I agree with your view Mavos from a spiritual viewpoint. I think we are all sinners in Adam but I don`t think Adam was a literal man. I think the spiritual truth is that we are by nature sinners with a propensity to sin. Genesis is simply trying to communicate that truth in a none literal fashion. The death of Adam is spiritual in nature, not literal in my view which is why its still appointed for all men to die once and then a judgement. Those born again are born spiritually and not saved from literal death. If Jesus cancelled out Adams sin in a literal way as if sin was passed on literally through some genetic cause or something else that also caused animals to eat each other ect, then one would expect those affects to be reversed. They are not the literal affects though because the truth of Genesis is not literal in that way.

Theological though I agree with your reasoning.

03-15-2011 10:17 AM
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Resolute
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RE: When is Death Just?

Dear Frank-bro, although Adam's children suffer as a result of their father's sin, their suffering was not as a result of their being judged as Adam was. Instead, the bible offers this view:

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God." -- Romans 8:20-21

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him." -- John 3:16-17

And Abraham, who was called Yahweh's friend had this to say:

"At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sod′om; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham. Then Abraham approached and began to say: “Will you really sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous men in the midst of the city. Will you, then, sweep them away and not pardon the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are inside it? It is unthinkable of you that you are acting in this manner to put to death the righteous man with the wicked one so that it has to occur with the righteous man as it does with the wicked! It is unthinkable of you. Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?” Then Jehovah said: “If I shall find in Sod′om fifty righteous men in the midst of the city I will pardon the whole place on their account.” -- Genesis 18:22-26

Eventually, Abraham got it down to ten. Sadly, there weren't ten righteous men for whom Yahweh would spare the city.

Hope these scriptures help.
rez


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03-15-2011 11:57 AM
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gogh
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Post: #11
RE: When is Death Just?

re: "also caused animals to eat each other"

.....so what do want ant eaters eat?



:coffeeread:


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03-15-2011 12:07 PM
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Seraphim
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RE: When is Death Just?

Interesting scripture:

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God." -- Romans 8:20-21

It raises the question of why curse something in order to save it when not cursing it the first place might have been an option. The affect of sin didn't have to be placed on the children at all as they were not the ones to sin? Doesn't solve the dilemma really. It also raises the question of why subject all of creation to futility when creation, animals, plants and the universe did nothing wrong and creation wasn't descended from Adam?

03-15-2011 12:20 PM
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gogh
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RE: When is Death Just?

Romans 5:17....

"For if, through one man, death ruled because of that man's offense, how much more will those who receive such overflowing grace and the gift of righteousness rule in life because of one man, Jesus Christ!
Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone.
For just as through one man's disobedience many people were made sinners, so also through one man's obedience many people will be made righteous."


:coffeeread:


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03-15-2011 12:32 PM
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Seraphim
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RE: When is Death Just?

Remember though gogh that Adam is purported to have literally died as a result of his sin where as we don`t literally live forever because its appointed for man to die, and then a judgement. We do get reborn in the spirit though which doesn't negate the need for natural death. That`s why it more sensible to interpret Genesis non literally. Literally Adam and Jesus don`t equate.

03-15-2011 12:39 PM
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Resolute
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RE: When is Death Just?

Quote:
Literally Adam and Jesus don`t equate.


To you they don't.....:huh:

rez


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03-15-2011 01:04 PM
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