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When is Death Just?
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Seraphim
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Post: #16
RE: When is Death Just?

If you take Adam as literal and his death as literal then of course they don`t equate because Jesus saved people spiritually. Death was not reversed in the same way it was caused, if you take the Genesis account literally that is. The parallel is being born again, and that is not the resurrection, which only comes after literal death. So its not that I don`t have any substance to what I'm saying.

03-15-2011 01:11 PM
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Derek
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Post: #17
RE: When is Death Just?

In some ways Adam and Jesus correspond but they do not equate.

I don't think Adam could have become the Eternal Father to mankind since he was not the transmitter of life as was the Logos.

Adam demonstrated our need for redemption from an external source. Eventually, death is the norm for creatures of flesh and blood in a world of change and decay, Adam would have needed metamorphosis from being made of dust..in metaphoric language he needed not just obedience but the tree of life.



We go in faith, our own great weakness feeling,
And needing more each day Thy grace to know:
Yet from our hearts a song of triumph pealing,
“We rest on Thee, and in Thy Name we go.”
03-15-2011 03:46 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #18
RE: When is Death Just?

I agree with that Derek 100%

03-15-2011 04:21 PM
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gogh
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Post: #19
RE: When is Death Just?

Re: "I don't think Adam could have become the Eternal Father..."

Adam did became the human families eternal father upon becoming the first father, imo. Yes, eternally the human families first father, Adam was, and always will be, (he, he, grin). Imo.

Without Adam being the human families first and eternal father, would our Lord Jesus' ransom be what it is, namely redemption?

:coffeeread:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
03-15-2011 04:43 PM
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Derek
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Post: #20
RE: When is Death Just?

Well, I suppose he's an eternally dead father! :) ;)

gogh Wrote:
Re: "I don't think Adam could have become the Eternal Father..."

Adam did became the human families eternal father upon becoming the first father, imo. Yes, eternally the human families first father, Adam was, and always will be, (he, he, grin). Imo.

Without Adam being the human families first and eternal father, would our Lord Jesus' ransom be what it is, namely redemption?

:coffeeread:



We go in faith, our own great weakness feeling,
And needing more each day Thy grace to know:
Yet from our hearts a song of triumph pealing,
“We rest on Thee, and in Thy Name we go.”
03-15-2011 05:09 PM
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Totaldismay
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Post: #21
RE: When is Death Just?

Hi Sis,

I understand that Adam died not from judgement.

unfortunately I believe death to be simply sleep.

so in short GOD said to his children your punishment will be goto bed.

I know it is simplistic. but it is what I believe.

however judgement is reserved for one day as far as I know.

so since we are prone to believe that death is the end. we look at death very differently do we not?

People fear it. they want nothing to do with it. they run from it at all costs. IN FACT many would prefer someone else die before themselves, not all I know this.

So the punishment for all who are born of adam is sleep at a given point in time. so I dare say it is just the when that most people debate. a short life or long it is simantics to worry about .
we feel it to be just or unjust based on how we feel is the point I guess

03-15-2011 05:15 PM
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Mavos
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Post: #22
RE: When is Death Just?

Quote:
Well, I suppose he's an eternally dead father! :) ;)


Who said that Adam is going to be eternally dead? It's quite possible he repented and we will see him. The fact that God killed animals to cover them implies that he showed them a sacrificial system, which they taught to Cain and Able. Just as God covered them with the animal sin, so God has provided true covering in Jesus, provided we repent and believe. Jesus blood covers all sin, even Adam's.


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
03-15-2011 05:15 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #23
RE: When is Death Just?

I don`t think it takes anything away from the redemptive value of Jesus if Adam is not literally the human race`s father. For one thing God is the real original father of the human race. There is a tendency in my view to limit the power of the cross because of looking at it only from a legal point of view. Its much more than than that. Law comes into it for sure but its not a straight legalistic swap on Gods part. Its more about the spirit of law being respected because of the gravity of sin, not an anachronistic legal system long de-funked. Cold legality I don`t think so, but holistic ever flowing light showing the way to life not by law but its spirit based on love, both fatherly and maternal. Jesus` death showed how to rise beyond mere legalism. The sacrifice itself is something no law could ever stipulate and no law could ever save the guilty. God didn't do because of being compelled to by law. The potential of humanity and the image of God within is contained on the cross. The way to face suffering and death with even joy is there. Grace is there, as a man who kneels down to be with a run over cat in its last moments of life on a cold, dark and rainy street corner, when its nothing to him or compared to him, that is there. Its so many things. Many miss those things because of seeing it legally. A ransom it is, but not a legal one for grace is not compelled by law not can it be.

03-15-2011 05:35 PM
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Derek
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Post: #24
RE: When is Death Just?

QED Matt,
Adam is nothing, it takes Jesus to give him life! So in himself he is eternally nothing other than a handful of dust. :)

I liked the typo, Matt! :) Just as God covered them with the animal sin...

Mavos Wrote:

Quote:
Well, I suppose he's an eternally dead father! :) ;)


Who said that Adam is going to be eternally dead? It's quite possible he repented and we will see him. The fact that God killed animals to cover them implies that he showed them a sacrificial system, which they taught to Cain and Able. Just as God covered them with the animal sin, so God has provided true covering in Jesus, provided we repent and believe. Jesus blood covers all sin, even Adam's.



We go in faith, our own great weakness feeling,
And needing more each day Thy grace to know:
Yet from our hearts a song of triumph pealing,
“We rest on Thee, and in Thy Name we go.”
03-15-2011 05:46 PM
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Totaldismay
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Post: #25
RE: When is Death Just?

Actually,
I would have to disagree with this

"Adam is not literally the human race`s father"

if he was a man " i realize you doubt this" He was and will always be the father of the human race.

Jesus is a father figure but he is more often seen in the scriptures as the Son of MAN.

GOD made man in likeness he did not make more god's when he made us.

thru ONE MAN sin entered the world! do you believe that?



edited, as a side note how long do we try to help someone see the error of their ways? how much mental damage is to much for even GOD to fix? I dare say GOD does and has given up on MAN before. Yes he holds HOPE for us but he seems to not even be fully convinced that all men will humble themselves and let the light shine in. we are lucky he is not a man. we would have given up on us along time ago.

03-15-2011 05:55 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #26
RE: When is Death Just?

I believe it as theological truth but the scientific evidence from genetics shows where man came from and when and also his migration from his ancestral point of origin. Faith in Jesus doesn't rest on a real Adam or on science though so it doesn't matter either way in that respect. Although one is liable to miss theological truth in Genesis if they ignore the evidence but not even that saves anyone. It just helps that all.

03-15-2011 06:01 PM
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isomam
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Post: #27
RE: When is Death Just?

Seraphim Wrote:
I don't think it takes anything away from the redemptive value of Jesus if Adam is not literally the human race's father.


i strongly disagree.


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
03-15-2011 08:09 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #28
RE: When is Death Just?

Most people understand the basic precepts of justice and even Paul argues that those without the law do the things of it because of common sense and the conscience. Is it common sense, justice and conscience that God would literally punish billions of children of one single pair with physical death and suffering, with the propensity to sin when it wasn't even their fault? Does a good parent punish all his children when the older brother does something wrong? If you read the account as literal this is what you get. I wouldn't recommend it particularly as the bible itself contradicts that view in other places. God is morally superior to man to the extent that even Jesus said `no one is good but God` when someone called him good. So if a man doesn't give his child a snake when he asks for bread, then God doesn't beat his children for something they haven't done while at the same time building in to their nature the impossibility for them to do it properly.

I take a different view that takes account of the evidence because nature is Gods other book that should not be ignored.

03-15-2011 08:41 PM
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gogh
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Post: #29
RE: When is Death Just?

Re: "God didn't do because of being compelled to by law."

YHVH is compelled to abide to His own laws/principles/standards, imo.

Hebrews 9:22 "And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission."

The ultimate cleansing has taken place via Jesus shed blood...(therefore fulfilling "law" mention here in scripture).

Jesus reference to Abraham and Noah indicates they where real people.

According to Luke there is less genealogical distance between Noah and Adam than there was between Abraham and Noah.

Luke 3:36...

"...[son] of Noah, [son] of Lamech, [son] of Methuselah, [son] of Enoch, [son] of Jared, [son] of Mahalaleel, [son] of Cainan, [son] of Enosh, [son] of Seth, [son] of Adam, [son] of God."

To discard/disregard Jesus' relation to Abraham, Abraham's relation to Noah and Noah's relationship to Adam, may interfere with appreciation for the value of Jesus sacrifice, imo.

:coffeeread:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
03-15-2011 08:41 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #30
RE: When is Death Just?

We have been through this before gogh. For a start you say God is compelled to abide by his own laws/principles/standards. In fact he is supposed to do even better than the highest standards he expects of us. So why does a literal interpretation of Genesis not show that?

03-15-2011 08:53 PM
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