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When is Death Just?
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Resolute
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Post: #46
RE: When is Death Just?

Mavos Wrote:

Totaldismay Wrote:
So Adam/Eve got the death penalty for taking something that did not belong them, and all their children recieved the same death penalty.

Hmm, that doesn't seem fair or just?

we would not impose such a penalty in our society where I live. In fact even physical punishment wouldn't go over where I live.

Right or wrong we would in fact as a group condem GOD himself for what he has done in the bible.

So is it that the bible writers took their own liberty's and wrote what they felt?
Is scripture inspired of GOD?

what in fact justifies the Death sentence?

IF I think no living creature should be harmed and yet another man hunts to eat am I right and he is wrong?
If I feel that my level of morality is high enough yet another man feels I am without a moral concience do I deserve death? adultery? slander?
they recieved a horrible death sentence at one time.
Now people seem to do both just as quickly as brush their teeth.

I am a sinner and GOD has not given me those extremes? is he saving a quake, storm for me?
when does he use that method of punishment?

He did not destroy ninevah cause they had repentance?
maybe GOD's justice has alot to do with attitude?
Just a thought


I understand your concern my friend, however, if you reject the idea that we are guilty in Adam, then you have to reject the opposite as well. What do I mean? Well simply put, if you look at the last half of Romans chapter 5 it becomes clear that the way death is passed to us from Adam is the way life is passed to us from Christ. If you think one is unfair you are forced to think both are unfair. Why should I be guilty of Adam's sin? Well, why should you be pronounced innocent because of Jesus death and resurrection? It's the same thing. If we don't inherit guilt from Adam, then we don't inherit life from Christ. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV) The last half of Romans five is all about this.

If then, sin and death are passed to us from Adam is the exact same way righteousness and life are passed to us from Christ, how is that?

It has to do with COVENANT. Adam was our "Covenant head", our "Federal head", or our "Federal Representative". All of humanity was represented in Adam. We are familiar with this sort of thing. Our government is based upon Federal Representation. Our elected officials go to Parliament or Congress in our place. They represent their constituents. We are all Adam's constituents. God made an agreement, a covenant with Adam and all humanity in Adam. Adam broke that covenant knowing full well that the consequences that "breach of contract" would have for his posterity. But he didn't care.

Christ is the last Adam. God has provided him to take the punishments stipulated in the Ademic Covenant. The Covenant with Adam required two things: obedience and death if you failed. Christ gave perfect obedience, and then died as our representative. Now that the conditions of the Ademic Covenant have been satisfied in Christ, God offers a New Covenant in Christ. Christ becomes our new Federal Head and Representative. His obedience and life become ours. The key here is if Christ is going to be our Federal Representative, then we have to be in Christ. We have to die with him in his death, and rise with him in his resurrection. The Spirit makes those in Christ into a New Creation and a New Humanity with a New Covenant.

Hope that helps!
Matt


After reading this thread twice,( because it's an important topic) I think Mavos answered it well. I'll just add my 2 cents in agreement.

In Adam, our first father, we all die because we were part of Adam when he sinned. It's not that our God singled us out as individuals to "punish" us. He punished Adam -- in whom we all resided - unborn. We were Adam, unformed, unconscious and innocent though we were.

And, yes, I believe Adam was a real person. Jesus believed he was a real person and that's good enough for me. Jesus IS the truth and our Father said:

"This is my son, the beloved. Listen to him."

If we are baptized into Christ, we become united with him as his body and we are made alive in him. Jesus will not reject his own body.

"In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, for no man ever hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it, as the Christ also does the congregation, because we are members of his body." -- Ephesians 5:28-30

:grouphug:

rez

PS.....beware of falling victim to "the Big Lie".

Quote:
"...the magnitude of a lie always contains a certain factor of credibility, since the great masses of the people in the very bottom of their hearts tend to be corrupted rather than consciously and purposely evil, and that, therefore, in view of the primitive simplicity of their minds they more easily fall a victim to a big lie than to a little one, since they themselves lie in little things, but would be ashamed of lies that were too big. Such a falsehood will never enter their heads and they will not be able to believe in the possibility of such monstrous effrontery and infamous misrepresentation in others; yes, even when enlightened on the subject, they will long doubt and waver, and continue to accept at least one of these causes as true. Therefore, something of even the most insolent lie will always remain and stick – a fact which all the great lie-virtuosi and lying-clubs in this world know only too well and also make the most treacherous use of." ~ Mein Kampf


When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one… – Edmund Burke
03-17-2011 12:33 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #47
RE: When is Death Just?

I was just reading Genesis chapter four and found something fascinating:

Quote:
1 This is the written account of Adam’s family line.

When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind”[a] when they were created.

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father[b] of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.

9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan. 10 After he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters. 11 Altogether, Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then he died.

12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel. 13 After he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters. 14 Altogether, Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then he died.

15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared. 16 After he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters. 17 Altogether, Mahalalel lived a total of 895 years, and then he died.

18 When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch. 19 After he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 20 Altogether, Jared lived a total of 962 years, and then he died.

21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech. 26 After he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters. 27 Altogether, Methuselah lived a total of 969 years, and then he died.

28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah[c] and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed.” 30 After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31 Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.

32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.


If one takes this as literal one has to conclude that without birth control all these successive generations of men were not having their first born sons until at least 70? Obviously daughters may not be counted but the first born sons were, and Adam only has five children for 930 years of life. Doesn't sound like normal human nature to me. Either for some strange reason they were nearly all not having sex for nearly hundreds of years or were having an excessive amount of daughters before sons are born, which is discounted by Adam only have five kids altogether in 930 years. To me this shows the account is not literal but I would be interested to hear how those who think it is, make sense of it?

03-17-2011 02:15 PM
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isomam
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Post: #48
RE: When is Death Just?

Seraphim Wrote:
I was just reading Genesis chapter four and found something fascinating:

Quote:
1 This is the written account of Adam’s family line.

When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind”[a] when they were created.

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father[b] of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.

9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan. 10 After he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters. 11 Altogether, Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then he died.

12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel. 13 After he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters. 14 Altogether, Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then he died.

15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared. 16 After he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters. 17 Altogether, Mahalalel lived a total of 895 years, and then he died.

18 When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch. 19 After he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 20 Altogether, Jared lived a total of 962 years, and then he died.

21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech. 26 After he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters. 27 Altogether, Methuselah lived a total of 969 years, and then he died.

28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah[c] and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed.” 30 After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31 Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.

32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.


If one takes this as literal one has to conclude that without birth control all these successive generations of men were not having their first born sons until at least 70? Obviously daughters may not be counted but the first born sons were, and Adam only has five children for 930 years of life. Doesn't sound like normal human nature to me. Either for some strange reason they were nearly all not having sex for nearly hundreds of years or were having an excessive amount of daughters before sons are born, which is discounted by Adam only have five kids altogether in 930 years. To me this shows the account is not literal but I would be interested to hear how those who think it is, make sense of it?


brian, i am reminded of some of my favorite words from plato, 4th century b.c.e. ...

"refrain, therefore, just a little while from setting yourself up as judge of the highest matters. for you will find, no doubt, that time will revise and even reverse some of your most cherished notions."


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
03-17-2011 05:07 PM
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wolfie
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Post: #49
RE: When is Death Just?

Hi Brian--

I don't feel we really understand all the dynamics of living these long lives and how it would differ from our relatively short ones. When Cain killed abel it is said they were approximately 100 years old and there is no sign or evidence either one of them had children. We know Enoch was born after the murder of abel. It looks like it is just the norm for the times especially from the history in genesis chapter 5. If you were going to live hundreds and hundreds of years old being 100 would still be young...and we don't really know how many children adam and eve had do we. I see no reason for all the offspring of everyone to be named in scripture...


''In the midst of winter I finally learned that in me there was an invincible summer.'' Albert Camus

''live simply, speak kindly, love unconditionally''
03-17-2011 05:17 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #50
RE: When is Death Just?

Verse three of chapter four tells us point blank how many children Adam had:

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

The norm should have been to have had as many kids as possible if one takes it literally because God commanded them to be fruitful and multiply in order to fill the earth. I cant see where a norm for men being so incredibly frigid would come from when culture hadn't even had time to become entrenched, particularity when the fruitful command had been given. It seems like it should have been a win win situation for the very powerful and natural sex drive.

03-17-2011 05:37 PM
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wolfie
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Post: #51
RE: When is Death Just?

I am sorry Brian but I am not seeing where it says exactly how many children adam had--it says after seth was born he had ''other sons and daughters'' but I don't see that as being an exact count --he may have had many more--''other sons and daughters'' is kind of vague...


''In the midst of winter I finally learned that in me there was an invincible summer.'' Albert Camus

''live simply, speak kindly, love unconditionally''
03-17-2011 05:43 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #52
RE: When is Death Just?

LOL....Adam lived for 930 years, and he stopped having sex with his wife after child number 5?


Yeah.....right.


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


03-17-2011 06:33 PM
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Totaldismay
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Post: #53
RE: When is Death Just?

I wonder how many before eve said no? she did have birth pains ya know

03-17-2011 07:02 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #54
RE: When is Death Just?

Yes your right Wolfie. I thought it said how many kids he had in total, it doesn't. I mixed up the verse number with the text. LOL However it seems to list the first born of Adams male descendants, and in Adams case his third born, Seth becomes his first born because of the Cain and Able incident, which is still a massive problem when one considers sex drive. My other points still seem valid. Adam still only had enough kids to account for three male offspring in 130 years in a time without birth control. Adam having daughters is only mentioned as happening after Seth is born. Of course its slightly possible that Adam had daughters before Seth but it doesn't seem likely given the chronological nature of the genealogy. If Adam had done so it would have been at the same rate roughly as having sons, which would mean he had about six kids maximum in 130 years. Methuselahs first-born male is not born until he is 187 years of age. Did he have 30 daughters before his first born male child? All the generations have similar figures which does not make sense at all. One would think that at least one would have a first born male at about 20 or 30 years old given the command to procreate and human desire for love and sex. Doesn't seem likely this is literal to me.

03-17-2011 07:13 PM
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isomam
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Post: #55
RE: When is Death Just?

Seraphim Wrote:
Verse three of chapter four tells us point blank how many children Adam had:

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.


brian, are you looking at the "5" indicating verse 5 and thinking that is how many "sons and daughters" adam and eve had? :confused:


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
03-17-2011 07:13 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #56
RE: When is Death Just?

Thats exactly what I did. You must have just posted after I just posted.

03-17-2011 07:15 PM
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isomam
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Post: #57
RE: When is Death Just?

Seraphim Wrote:
Thats exactly what I did. You must have just posted after I just posted.


yep. i see that now.


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
03-17-2011 07:16 PM
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gogh
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Post: #58
RE: When is Death Just?

Imo, Certain individual males are mentioned by name, Seth etc., as they where (mostly), part of the genealogical line described in scripture. This means, imo, many more individuals, males and females could have been born yet not named, as they (the unnamed) where not part of the genealogical line described in scripture. Imo, there could have been many males and females born between the ones named in scripture; where scripture does not specify.

Re: "Adam having daughters is only mentioned as happening after Seth is born."...is an example of possibly assuming too much....because something/a detail is not mentioned, does not necessarily mean.....anything.

:coffeeread:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
03-17-2011 07:31 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #59
RE: When is Death Just?

Totaldismay Wrote:
I wonder how many before eve said no? she did have birth pains ya know


Hey BIG BRO!

My grandmother on my mothers side, had 12 kids.


I'm pretty sure Eve could handle it.


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


03-17-2011 07:40 PM
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wolfie
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Post: #60
RE: When is Death Just?

Seraphim Wrote:
Yes your right Wolfie. I thought it said how many kids he had in total, it doesn't. I mixed up the verse number with the text. LOL However it seems to list the first born of Adams male descendants, and in Adams case his third born, Seth becomes his first born because of the Cain and Able incident, which is still a massive problem when one considers sex drive. My other points still seem valid. Adam still only had enough kids to account for three male offspring in 130 years in a time without birth control. Adam having daughters is only mentioned as happening after Seth is born. Of course its slightly possible that Adam had daughters before Seth but it doesn't seem likely given the chronological nature of the genealogy. If Adam had done so it would have been at the same rate roughly as having sons, which would mean he had about six kids maximum in 130 years. Methuselahs first-born male is not born until he is 187 years of age. Did he have 30 daughters before his first born male child? All the generations have similar figures which does not make sense at all. One would think that at least one would have a first born male at about 20 or 30 years old given the command to procreate and human desire for love and sex. Doesn't seem likely this is literal to me.


this is awfully confusing reasoning, brian--way more complicated than I get into. It was a different time--a different life span and no doubt alot we just don't understand about the times But to me this account is a way of letting us know how it all began. We don't have every little detail--in fact there aren't too many But I do believe we have all we need. As far as Adam and Eve goes and their family I read that the Jewish people believe they had 53 children. That would be enough I think but I also believe as Gogh mentioned--we have what we need for the line of descent of Jesus Christ and that is what it is all about.
It sets the stage for something really, really important--Jesus.

we have shared a bit of how we view this account and you have mentioned what makes sense to you and what doesn't and for me if all this lineage and family tree and all the names and ages of people were given--for people who never existed That is what makes no sense to me. What would be the purpose... I deeply believe this scripture Brian:

''This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.'' Genesis 2:4
and I am not a big doubter for I also believe this:

''Jesus looked at them and said, ''With man this is impossible, but
with God all things are possible.'' Matt. 19:26

If one believes that then these other things are just little details--sometimes interesting details--but not deal breakers...in my opinion, of course Brian. I am not trying in any way to change yours--just share mine with you... :heartbeat:


''In the midst of winter I finally learned that in me there was an invincible summer.'' Albert Camus

''live simply, speak kindly, love unconditionally''
03-17-2011 08:00 PM
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