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When is Death Just?
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Resolute
politicus incorrectissimus in extremis


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Post: #76
RE: When is Death Just?

Seraphim, if Adam was not a real person then he couldn't sin. If Adam didn't sin then why would Jesus have to die? If Jesus had to suffer and die for a non-literal person, then I would think that would make our heavenly Father seem monstrous. There is no justice on that path.

You've gone on about the number of children had by pre-flood folks, man's sex drive, the pre-flood lifespans, etc., and used these statements of yours' in an attempt to prove that Genesis wasn't literal. Sorry, bro, but these are mere speculations of yours....not facts.

If you simply stated your belief in a well-thought-out post or two and left others to have their say without pooh-poohing them, then it would be fine. I like to think that folks are free to express themselves. But what you're doing by hijacking this thread is not showing respect for the faith and views of others. For instance, you just responded to me with:

Quote:
I would have thought people abused by the Watchtowers version of evidence, science, justice, morality would have been able to think outside the box in these respects.


Whether you're conscious of this or not, what you're saying by this statement is:

"You, rez, are in a WT box. I'm here to free yours' and others' thinking. I'm liberating people from their literalist, unsubstantiated, unscientific, unjust, tight-@$$ morality imposed on them by the religion that abused them."

Did I get that right?

I'm not asking you to leave the board. Rather, I'm asking you to slow down and think about the effect of your words and ideas on others. Your posts used to contain such love and compassion for others. Please don't let that slip away.

in christ,
rez


When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one… – Edmund Burke
03-18-2011 01:44 PM
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Totaldismay
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Post: #77
RE: When is Death Just?

That's just it !

"is that they get more theological truth out of passages that arguably were clearly meant to be taken metaphorically "

GOD himself said that many would rather believe the LIE!

I take that as truth and hence my whole view point on the matter.

people tend to reason with Human reasonings, and rightfully so.

But this is why things in this world are as they are. We make them so personal that we forget we are not the final say. and GOD does not in fact have to justify himself to anyone.
Thou he may try, it is not a given. He brought us into this world and he can take us out.
It is Grace that allows us the inbetween time. IF we believe anything other I say it is our own mind that needs to be changed.

IT is called entilement brother, we all are born with it to a degree
Yet it is unfounded all things belong to GOD and no one else.

Remember when God asked someone in the bible where where they when the plan was laid out? when the foundation was set?
He was making a point.
Many do not seem to get the point!

03-18-2011 01:51 PM
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Resolute
politicus incorrectissimus in extremis


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Post: #78
RE: When is Death Just?

Totaldismay Wrote:
That's just it !

"is that they get more theological truth out of passages that arguably were clearly meant to be taken metaphorically "

GOD himself said that many would rather believe the LIE!

I take that as truth and hence my whole view point on the matter.

people tend to reason with Human reasonings, and rightfully so.

But this is why things in this world are as they are. We make them so personal that we forget we are not the final say. and GOD does not in fact have to justify himself to anyone.
Thou he may try, it is not a given. He brought us into this world and he can take us out.
It is Grace that allows us the inbetween time. IF we believe anything other I say it is our own mind that needs to be changed.

IT is called entilement brother, we all are born with it to a degree
Yet it is unfounded all things belong to GOD and no one else.

Remember when God asked someone in the bible where where they when the plan was laid out? when the foundation was set?
He was making a point.
Many do not seem to get the point!


Frank, I like what Jesus said at Matthew 11:25-26:

"At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you."

"In that hour the disciples came near to Jesus and said: “Who really is greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?” So, calling a young child to him, he set it in their midst and said: “Truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU turn around and become as young children, YOU will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens. Therefore, whoever will humble himself like this young child is the one that is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens; and whoever receives one such young child on the basis of my name receives me [also]. But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who put faith in me, it is more beneficial for him to have hung around his neck a millstone such as is turned by an ass and to be sunk in the wide, open sea." -- Matthew 18:1-6

I hope to have learned enough as a child of God to trust completely the way our Father works. There are many scriptures that show his fairness and reasonableness where judgment is concerned. And, since he has turned all judgment over to his son, Jesus, I think we can feel certain that love and fairness will be displayed by someone who was so willing to suffer and die for us.

A child's parent may say to that child: "If you do that again, you're going to sit on the naughty seat."

The child, experimenting with his boundaries may just "do it again".

If the parent then lets him off from punishment and the child is emboldened to "do it again" for the second time and the parent says:

"This time you go to the naughty seat!"

The child feels quite justified in protesting:

"But you let me off the last time."

The parent has messed with the child's head.

When God told Adam "In the day that you eat of it you will positively die," he was making law. If he now ignored his own law when Adam sinned, he would have messed with Adam's head as well as the heads of all intelligent observers.

The questions would have remained: Does God speak just to hear his own voice? Does God mean what he says? How many times might I get away with disobeying before Father cracks down on me? If Father didn't bring the stated punishment on me the first time I disobeyed, how come he's doing it now?

Personally, I'm glad that God meant what he said. It built trust in me for his future judgments. He also made the way out so that innocent ones will not have to forever suffer for the wrong-doing of Adam.

Whether or not Jehovah will bring Adam back in the resurrection I leave to him in confidence that he knows the heart. He's a life-oriented God and Father and wants the best for all his children but he's also a God of justice. His will take place!

love in christ,
rez


When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one… – Edmund Burke
03-18-2011 03:10 PM
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Derek
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Post: #79
RE: When is Death Just?

We are raised, I think not on a point of Law, but because God loves us in Christ and wants us to live eternally.

God is Love.



We go in faith, our own great weakness feeling,
And needing more each day Thy grace to know:
Yet from our hearts a song of triumph pealing,
“We rest on Thee, and in Thy Name we go.”
03-18-2011 04:44 PM
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gogh
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Post: #80
RE: When is Death Just?

Psalm 33:5 "He loveth righteousness and justice: The earth is full of the lovingkindness of Jehovah."

Psalm 37:28 "For Jehovah loveth justice,..."

Psalm 106:3 "Blessed are they that keep justice,..."

:thumbsup:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
03-18-2011 05:57 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #81
RE: When is Death Just?

I agree with you Derek. I'm watching comic relief which makes your point exactly. Angels weep!

03-18-2011 06:35 PM
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Resolute
politicus incorrectissimus in extremis


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Post: #82
RE: When is Death Just?

Derek Wrote:
We are raised, I think not on a point of Law, but because God loves us in Christ and wants us to live eternally.

God is Love.


Absolutely, Derek! If law was strictly enforced our "goose" would have been "cooked" way back in Eden. It would have been just, but it would not have been loving.

God did not abandon us to strict justice. His love moved him to pronounce sentence on the guilty and hope for the innocent, right there in Eden.

That hope iterated in the garden, was God's mercy in providing his son who was willing to take on the death sentence for us. As the bible writer James said in James 2:13(b):

"Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment."

Law gives substance to mercy. Law is the skeleton which is clothed with the flesh of mercy. Thanks to our Father's love, we don't appear before him like some bare bones X-ray. Instead we are the beautiful portrait of his son.

Thanks again Derek, for raising that point.

in Christ,
rez


When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one… – Edmund Burke
03-19-2011 10:27 AM
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wolfie
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Post: #83
RE: When is Death Just?

Seraphim Wrote:
I agree with you Derek. I'm watching comic relief which makes your point exactly. Angels weep!


what do you mean by this brian? kinda wondering...


''In the midst of winter I finally learned that in me there was an invincible summer.'' Albert Camus

''live simply, speak kindly, love unconditionally''
03-19-2011 10:38 AM
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Seraphim
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Post: #84
RE: When is Death Just?

Comic relief is a once a year TV event in the UK that is presented live using comedy interspersed with documentary style clips showing the suffering and issues of the poor around the world and the UK. The idea is the inspire, not force people to send money in to help in a charitable way.

03-19-2011 01:20 PM
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wolfie
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Post: #85
RE: When is Death Just?

I am confused regarding that comment and the discussion board--not seeing how it fits in... :confused: ..I seem to be missing a piece of the puzzle brian...


''In the midst of winter I finally learned that in me there was an invincible summer.'' Albert Camus

''live simply, speak kindly, love unconditionally''
03-19-2011 01:23 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #86
RE: When is Death Just?

wolfie Wrote:
I am confused regarding that comment and the discussion board--not seeing how it fits in... :confused: ..I seem to be missing a piece of the puzzle brian...


It was a comment to Derek really. The program underlines the extent of suffering in the world by the innocent and that grace is not compelled by law. Law doesn't show or explain why children suffer or provide its solution. Derek understands what I mean.

03-19-2011 01:43 PM
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