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Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?
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ablebodiedman
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Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Threads Intent:

I want to start this thread so that some Christians might have a venue where they could research where or what those mountains are which we are told to begin fleeing to.

My hope is that this research will not be quickly diverted by preterists or naysayers and quickly come to an end. (like many others)

After all, if preterists want to argue about the literal mountains in Jerusalem they already have an abundance of threads where they have made their arguments.

I also don't want this thread to turn into a discussion about whether we are living in the end times or not.

Plenty of other threads which quickly get diverted to that discussion.

I hope the intent of this thread is supported by the moderators.

A chance for members to research something completely different.


So here is the question I would like Christians to participate in:

If Jesus Christ intended his prophecy to be for the end times which we might now be living in, then where are those mountains that he told us to begin fleeing to?


Matthew 24:15-16
“Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains.

Please use scriptures to support your research and arguments.

If you don't know the answer its ok.

If you are aware of scriptures which point to the general direction then please share.

Perhaps you might have some insight into how the bible supports a "mountain" in a spiritual rather than literal sense.



In Christ

abe


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Post: #2
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

OK, let's use JW logic.

Mountains = governments.

Proof?

"Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, says the LORD, which destroys the whole earth; I will stretch out my hand against you, and roll you down from the crags, and make you a burnt mountain." (Jeremiah 51:25)

God called Babylon a "destroying mountain"... and Babylon was a government... or a world empire.

Therefore, when Jesus said "let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains", he meant those in spiritual Judea to begin fleeing to government... or the world empire at the time.

Disclaimer: I don't buy into such ridiculous nonsense, but my logic here is as good as anybody's.


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03-20-2011 02:09 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Interpretum,

So if Babylon can be referred to as a mountain, then it is a mountain that God's people would want to flee!

Zechariah 2:7
Hey there, Zion! Make your escape, you who are dwelling with the daughter of Babylon.

So a mountain can indeed be likened to a spiritual city!

If the place God's people need to flee from can be likened to a spiritual mountain then where are the mountains which we should begin fleeing to?

Good start to the thread.


In Christ

abe


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Post: #4
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

They need to flee to Babylon... or to their nearest government.


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03-20-2011 02:29 PM
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gogh
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Post: #5
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

OK, let's use gogh logic.

Mountains = love

Proof?

"MOUNTAIN OF LOVE "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q2Mg5I-T...re=related


Disclaimer: I don't buy into such ridiculous nonsense, but my logic here is as good as anybody's.

:coffeeread: :funnyface: :coffeeread:

(ps, Abe...just goof'n around...not to detract from your presented topic)


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03-20-2011 02:33 PM
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COMankind
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RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Ok, so figurative and applying to today? - [I can do this]

Exodus 4:27
The LORD said a to Aaron, "Go to the wilderness to meet Moses. So he went and met him at the mountain of God and greeted him with a kiss." - The mountain of Zion is THE mountain on record. Mountains have also been synonymous with protective shelter, i.e. living in the wilderness with your life in God's hands as opposed to a false sense of security behind the walls of a city.

For me, if Matt 24:15,16 were to apply figuratively to today, then we're hearing Jesus encourage people to leave the protective walls of organized religion and rely completely on 'spiritually navigating by the stars' with - dare I say - God as our co-pilot.


philia, COMankind

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03-20-2011 02:44 PM
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Post: #7
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

I'm not sure Johnny Rivers constitutes "proof" :)


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03-20-2011 02:50 PM
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Post: #8
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

On a more serious note, this may be important:

“Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for me. On the contrary, weep for yourselves and for your children; because, look! days are coming in which people will say, ‘Happy are the barren women, and the wombs that did not give birth and the breasts that did not nurse!’ Then they will start to say to the mountains, ‘Fall over us!’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us over!’ Because if they do these things when the tree is moist, what will occur when it is withered?"

What did Jesus mean by saying this to the daughters of Jerusalem? Why did they need to weep for themselves, and for their children? Why would people talk to mountains?


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03-20-2011 02:53 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #9
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

COMankind Wrote:
Ok, so figurative and applying to today? - [I can do this]

Exodus 4:27
The LORD said a to Aaron, "Go to the wilderness to meet Moses. So he went and met him at the mountain of God and greeted him with a kiss." - The mountain of Zion is THE mountain on record. Mountains have also been synonymous with protective shelter, i.e. living in the wilderness with your life in God's hands as opposed to a false sense of security behind the walls of a city.

For me, if Matt 24:15,16 were to apply figuratively to today, then we're hearing Jesus encourage people to leave the protective walls of organized religion and rely completely on 'spiritually navigating by the stars' with - dare I say - God as our co-pilot.


COMankind,

Yes, I get that same sentiment from this scripture:

Isaiah 4:4-6
When Jehovah will have washed away the excrement of the daughters of Zion and he will rinse away even the bloodshed of Jerusalem from within her by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning down, 5 Jehovah will also certainly create over every established place of Mount Zion and over her convention place a cloud by day and a smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; because over all the glory there will be a shelter. 6 And there will come to be a booth for a shade by day from the dry heat, and for a refuge and for a hiding place from the rainstorm and from the precipitation.


Read this carefully:


Jehovah will also certainly create over every established place of Mount Zion

Suggests multiple and yet established places where Mount Zion exists.

If there are indeed "mountains" to begin fleeing to, then those are the ones I would like to find.


In Christ

abe


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COMankind
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RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Gogh: Well, i'm sure someone could get that to support a doctrine. Don't look now gogh, you might have the beginnings of a new movement on your hands.

[/b]Abe:
Well, if it's any consolation, Jesus did say:

Luke 17: 20,21
"Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst." -

So, there's really no 'preterist' view of that one. You may want to consider that all the instruction about the things that must take place - if they apply to today - was delivered to say "these are the symptoms" not "here are the series of events that you will be able to observe and recognize that the kingdom is coming." There was nothing they could do to actually recognize it, and call the shot, while it happened.

Have you ever heard of someone having a heart attack, and only realizing it after the fact - once they read up on the symptoms? The same with the kingdom. I don't see how we can 'relocate' to a better position to be rewarded.

Notice the following verses in Luke 17. Two women grinding wheat, one is taken the other isn't. They are just doing their normal daily thing...doesn't say anything about those that have relocated to the mountains, or are actively doing something (like the ministry) that is separating them. It is their love of God (trust in him, dont trust Israel/religion, flee to the mountains) and love of neighbor that save them. It happens in an instant, totally unaware.

warm regards...[b]


philia, COMankind

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03-20-2011 03:02 PM
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gogh
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Post: #11
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Re: "...then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains."

As well as emphasizing the "where" to flee, aspect of scripture, might one not also consider the act of "begin fleeing"? Direction one is taking/living, imo, may prove to be as important as destination? The word "turn" (as verb), comes to mind....

Some "turn" scriptures that come to mind...(not really, I found them on the Watchtower CD, he, he):

Acts 3:19...

"Therefore, repent and turn to him to have your sins blotted out,
so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord and so that he may send you Jesus, the Christ whom he appointed long ago.
Heaven must receive him until the time of universal restoration that God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets........

... You are the descendants of the prophets and the heirs of the covenant that God made with your ancestors when he said to Abraham, 'Through your descendant all the families of the earth will be blessed.'
When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning every one of you from your evil ways."

Many have fled/are fleeing....turned/are turning, (movement of direction as opposed to destination....repetition for emphasis, grin), to worship in spirit and truth, (imo)...

Hebrews 12:22...

"Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, to tens of thousands of angels joyfully gathered together, to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to a judge who is the God of all, to the spirits of righteous people who have been made perfect, to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better message than Abel's.

See to it that you do not ignore the one who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they ignored the one who warned them on earth, how much less will we escape if we turn away from the one who is from heaven!
At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also heaven."
The expression "once more" signifies the removal of what can be shaken, that is, what he has made, so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful and worship God in reverence and fear in a way that pleases him.

For our God is an all-consuming fire."


.02,

gogh

(ps....flee to the mountain of love....gogh Johnny gogh, gogh...gogh Johnny gogh, gogh! :whistle::whistle::whistle:)


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03-20-2011 03:51 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

COMankind,

Interesting!

So the mountains do not have to be literal geographically located mountains!

Yet the woman taken along was working right beside the woman left behind.

Had the woman taken along began fleeing to a spiritual mountain?

Please notice that the requirement is to "begin" fleeing to the mountains.

It says nothing of the arrival at those same mountains.

So the thing that seems to save people is not the actual arrival but the effort to begin in that direction.

Knowing the direction to a spiritual mountain is therefore an important requirement in my opinion.


In Christ

abe


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03-20-2011 03:57 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

gogh Wrote:
Many have fled/are fleeing....turned/are turning, (movement of direction as opposed to destination....repetition for emphasis, grin), to worship in spirit and truth, (imo)...



gogh,

Similar sentiment as my post above answering COMankind.

Yes, the worship "in spirit and truth" part was associated to mountains in Jesus Christs admonishment to the Samaritan woman:

John 4:19-21
The woman said to him: “Sir, I perceive you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshiped in this mountain; but YOU people say that in Jerusalem is the place where persons ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will YOU people worship the Father.

So what is the direction towards those mountains we are to "begin" fleeing towards?


In Christ

abe


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03-20-2011 04:06 PM
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gogh
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RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Some "mountain" scriptures, hopefully relevant to this topic:

Isaiah 2:2 ...

"And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.
And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Isaiah 25:6...

"And in this mountain will Jehovah of hosts make unto all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering that covereth all peoples, and the veil that is spread over all nations.
He hath swallowed up death for ever; and the Lord Jehovah will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the reproach of his people will he take away from off all the earth: for Jehovah hath spoken it.
And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is Jehovah; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation."

...very prophetic scripture, yes?

Isaiah 65:25...

"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith Jehovah."....sybolic and prophetic, yes?

.02,

gogh


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03-20-2011 04:20 PM
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COMankind
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RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Remember, the only thing preterist about my beliefs that is that I believe the new heavens and earth are already here. That's about the end of it though.

While some first century Christians literally ran to the hills before the walls came down, that's clearly not what separated sheep from goats. Many were slaughtered right there. Did some of them love God and neighbor, but just not recognize the signs? - sure. What's more important (for me, and I wont go on a past-fulfillment tangent here) is recognizing it after it happened.

Like admitting you had a heart attack after reading the symptoms. Move on, and be thankful for what you've got. :)


philia, COMankind

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03-20-2011 04:20 PM
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