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Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?
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Willa
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Post: #16
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Quote:
For me, if Matt 24:15,16 were to apply figuratively to today, then we're hearing Jesus encourage people to leave the protective walls of organized religion and rely completely on 'spiritually navigating by the stars' with - dare I say - God as our co-pilot.

Agreed!
Jesus' words had a literal reference to the seige of Jerusalem. If there's an application today, and I think there is, it's symbolic. I don't think it's a symbolic 'where', but a 'who'... A mountain is a big rock, right?


Deuteronomy 32
4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.
12 "The LORD alone guided him(Jeshurun/Israel),
And there was no foreign god with him.
13 "He made him ride on the high places of the earth,
And he ate the produce of the field;
And He made him suck honey from the rock,
And oil from the flinty rock,
14 Curds of cows, and milk of the flock,
With fat of lambs,
And rams, the breed of Bashan, and goats,
With the finest of the wheat--
And of the blood of grapes you drank wine.
15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked--
You are grown fat, thick, and sleek--
Then he forsook God who made him,
And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
16 "They made Him jealous with strange gods;
With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 "They sacrificed to demons who were not God,
To gods whom they have not known,
New gods who came lately,
Whom your fathers did not dread.
18 "You neglected the Rock who begot you,
And forgot the God who gave you birth.

2 Samuel 22:2-3 He said," The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

Psalm 31:3 For You are my rock and my fortress;For Your name's sake You will lead me and guide me.

Psalm 71:3 Be to me a rock of habitation to which I may continually come; You have given commandment to save me, For You are my rock and my fortress.

It's about the kingdom of God, too, I'm thinkin'...

Isaiah 33:15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
He who rejects unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure.
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty;
They will behold a far-distant land.
18 Your heart will meditate on terror:
"Where is he who counts?
Where is he who weighs?
Where is he who counts the towers?"
19 You will no longer see a fierce people,
A people of unintelligible speech which no one comprehends,
Of a stammering tongue which no one understands.
20 Look upon Zion, the city of our appointed feasts;
Your eyes will see Jerusalem, an undisturbed habitation,
A tent which will not be folded;
Its stakes will never be pulled up,
Nor any of its cords be torn apart.
21 But there the majestic One, the LORD, will be for us
A place of rivers and wide canals
On which no boat with oars will go,
And on which no mighty ship will pass--
22 For the LORD is our judge,
The LORD is our lawgiver,
The LORD is our king;
He will save us--
23 Your tackle hangs slack;
It cannot hold the base of its mast firmly,
Nor spread out the sail.
Then the prey of an abundant spoil will be divided;
The lame will take the plunder.
24 And no resident will say, "I am sick";
The people who dwell there will be forgiven their iniquity.

Matthew 16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Romans 9:33 just as it is written," BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

a few thoughts... :))


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
03-20-2011 05:15 PM
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isomam
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Post: #17
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Willa Wrote:

Quote:
For me, if Matt 24:15,16 were to apply figuratively to today, then we're hearing Jesus encourage people to leave the protective walls of organized religion and rely completely on 'spiritually navigating by the stars' with - dare I say - God as our co-pilot.

Agreed!
Jesus' words had a literal reference to the seige of Jerusalem. If there's an application today, and I think there is, it's symbolic. I don't think it's a symbolic 'where', but a 'who'... A mountain is a big rock, right?


Deuteronomy 32
4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.
12 "The LORD alone guided him(Jeshurun/Israel),
And there was no foreign god with him.
13 "He made him ride on the high places of the earth,
And he ate the produce of the field;
And He made him suck honey from the rock,
And oil from the flinty rock,
14 Curds of cows, and milk of the flock,
With fat of lambs,
And rams, the breed of Bashan, and goats,
With the finest of the wheat--
And of the blood of grapes you drank wine.
15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked--
You are grown fat, thick, and sleek--
Then he forsook God who made him,
And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
16 "They made Him jealous with strange gods;
With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 "They sacrificed to demons who were not God,
To gods whom they have not known,
New gods who came lately,
Whom your fathers did not dread.
18 "You neglected the Rock who begot you,
And forgot the God who gave you birth.

2 Samuel 22:2-3 He said," The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

Psalm 31:3 For You are my rock and my fortress;For Your name's sake You will lead me and guide me.

Psalm 71:3 Be to me a rock of habitation to which I may continually come; You have given commandment to save me, For You are my rock and my fortress.

It's about the kingdom of God, too, I'm thinkin'...

Isaiah 33:15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
He who rejects unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure.
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty;
They will behold a far-distant land.
18 Your heart will meditate on terror:
"Where is he who counts?
Where is he who weighs?
Where is he who counts the towers?"
19 You will no longer see a fierce people,
A people of unintelligible speech which no one comprehends,
Of a stammering tongue which no one understands.
20 Look upon Zion, the city of our appointed feasts;
Your eyes will see Jerusalem, an undisturbed habitation,
A tent which will not be folded;
Its stakes will never be pulled up,
Nor any of its cords be torn apart.
21 But there the majestic One, the LORD, will be for us
A place of rivers and wide canals
On which no boat with oars will go,
And on which no mighty ship will pass--
22 For the LORD is our judge,
The LORD is our lawgiver,
The LORD is our king;
He will save us--
23 Your tackle hangs slack;
It cannot hold the base of its mast firmly,
Nor spread out the sail.
Then the prey of an abundant spoil will be divided;
The lame will take the plunder.
24 And no resident will say, "I am sick";
The people who dwell there will be forgiven their iniquity.

Matthew 16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Romans 9:33 just as it is written," BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

a few thoughts... :))


rock on, sis willa! i'm with ya. :giverose:


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
03-20-2011 05:36 PM
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rus virgil
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Post: #18
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

The Rock ...... Stone/s ..... Mountain/s


Deut 32:
4."The Rock! His work is perfect,
For all His ways are just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He.

***************************************

Isaiah 28:
16. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

1 Peter 2:
5. you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

9. But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

***************************************

Ezekiel 36:
8. 'But you, O mountains of Israel,
you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel
; for they will soon come.

Joel 3:
18. And in that day
The mountains will drip with sweet wine,
And the hills will flow with milk,
And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water;
And a spring will go out from the house of the LORD
To water the valley of Shittim.

Isaiah 25:
6. The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.

*********************************

Revelation 1 :
6. and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5 :
10. "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

=============================================

We see that the meaning of these words "Rock" , "Stone" and "mountains" in the above quotes is referred to living beings , as the first one (the ROCK) is the Only One Most High .

After reading these verses I think is very clear what the "mountains" are.

Firstly, at plural , "the mountains" are each one (anointed) individual who is a part of Christ's Body.

and at singular it is the whole Body living on earth (being seen by God as "a kingdom" ) at the time when the prophecy (in Matt.24:16) is accomplished.


in Christ,
rus virgil

03-20-2011 05:42 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #19
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Willa Wrote:
Agreed!
Jesus' words had a literal reference to the seige of Jerusalem. If there's an application today, and I think there is, it's symbolic. I don't think it's a symbolic 'where', but a 'who'... A mountain is a big rock, right?


Willa,

Yes, a mountain is a big rock.

Daniel 2:44-45
“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; 45 forasmuch as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and [that] it crushed the iron, the copper, the molded clay, the silver and the gold. The grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy.”


The stone is the kingdom.


Lots of interesting stuff in this thread!


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
03-20-2011 06:13 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #20
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Matthew 24:15-16
“Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains.

As well as fleeing towards something this scripture implies that we should also know what we are fleeing from.

COMankind has already stated above that he beleives this is organized religion.

It may be even more important to understand what we are fleeing from than what we are fleeing towards.

Notice in Revelation that it does not say where the destination is but just that the city should be fled from.


Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people,

In regards to fleeing a city and going towards a destination the Apostle Paul gives this same sentiment to the Hebrews:

Hebrews 13:13-16
Let us, then, go forth to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach he bore, 14 for we do not have here a city that continues, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.

Fleeing the established yet corrupted and hypocritical city with the intent of finding the true final destination.


In Christ

abe


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Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
03-20-2011 06:26 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #21
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

rus virgil Wrote:
***************************************

Ezekiel 36:
8. 'But you, O mountains of Israel,
you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel
; for they will soon come.



rus,

I like the NWT version of this scripture too.

Ezekiel 36:7-8
And YOU yourselves, O mountains of Israel, will give forth YOUR very own boughs and bear YOUR own fruitage for my people Israel, for they have drawn near to the point of coming in.

It suggests that people are indeed headed towards the mountains.

and have not yet arrived.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
03-20-2011 06:31 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #22
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

rus virgil Wrote:
***************************************

Isaiah 28:
16. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.



rus,

Jesus Christ!

There is a profundity buried in the context of that scripture:

It is through means of this stone that the covenant with death will be flushed out and exposed:

Isaiah 28:16-18
No one exercising faith will get panicky. 17 And I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the leveling instrument; and the hail must sweep away the refuge of a lie, and the waters themselves will flood out the very place of concealment. 18 And YOUR covenant with Death will certainly be dissolved, and that vision of YOURS with She´ol will not stand.

Is there a lie, a covenant with death that has been flushed out and exposed from a place of concealment?

Through what means has this been done?


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
03-20-2011 06:43 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #23
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Willa Wrote:
Deuteronomy 32
4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.
12 "The LORD alone guided him(Jeshurun/Israel),
And there was no foreign god with him.
13 "He made him ride on the high places of the earth,
And he ate the produce of the field;
And He made him suck honey from the rock,
And oil from the flinty rock,
14 Curds of cows, and milk of the flock,
With fat of lambs,
And rams, the breed of Bashan, and goats,
With the finest of the wheat--
And of the blood of grapes you drank wine.
15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked--
You are grown fat, thick, and sleek--
Then he forsook God who made him,
And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
16 "They made Him jealous with strange gods;
With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 "They sacrificed to demons who were not God,
To gods whom they have not known,
New gods who came lately,
Whom your fathers did not dread.
18 "You neglected the Rock who begot you,
And forgot the God who gave you birth.


Willa,

So if this is the Song of Moses, who is going to be singing it and why?

The song seems very condemning!


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
03-20-2011 07:26 PM
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Willa
Peace, baby!


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Post: #24
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

I read somewhere that the Song of Moses was to be a sort of anthem for Israel - they were to learn and memorize it - the whole nation!

Rev. 15:2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God
3 and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:
“Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the nations.[a]

[a] Some manuscripts ages

This is a song of praise to God for His great and marvelous acts, sung by those who truly love Him. The song does not rejoice in the judgment of God upon His enemies but the righteousness of His great redemptive acts - whosoever is redeemed through Christ's blood will be singing it!

4 Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”[b]

[b] Phrases in this song are drawn from Psalm 111:2,3; Deut. 32:4; Jer. 10:7; Psalms 86:9; 98:2.

The Song of Moses is... like... a LOVE song - it's OUR SONG, hehe!

PEACE!


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
03-20-2011 09:12 PM
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man hu
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Post: #25
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Originally the Christians fled 'mountainous' Jerusalem and went to the mountains of Pella. This was across the Jordan, in the Decapolis. It was partially uninhabited because some Greeks had previously fled. It had fresh spring water.
This was a physical fleeing from an apparent refuge to a real refuge. The Christians according to Eusebius were warned to do this.

The current message I believe is spiritual and to flee the corrupt city, Jerusalem/Babylon the Great and head for the Two Mountains of Jehovah and Jesus's reigns as mentioned in Daniel 2.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
03-20-2011 09:40 PM
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COMankind
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Post: #26
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Quote:
COMankind has already stated above that he beleives this is organized religion.


Abe, just to be clear, you asked for a view that would support the 'futurist' (cant stand labels) perspective. I believe it had a similar application back then, and was fulfilled long ago...but I don't want to perpetuate that tangent here.

----

But heres a completely different tangent (willa, you might find this interesting)

Song of Moses, Deut 32. Note the scope of Moses' address:
"Listen, you heavens, and I will speak; hear, you earth, the words of my mouth." - deut 32:1

Heavens and earth were the audience. Thats big.

"When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel." - deut 32:8

All mankind was divided into the nations of Israel.

We have a tendency to apply phrases like heaven, earth and all mankind to the world and universe as we know it today. But statements like this truly put it in context. Does this put a different lens on the creation account?

Sorry to digress..


philia, COMankind

"The tent of God is with mankind" - Rev 21:3

03-20-2011 10:18 PM
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COMankind
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Post: #27
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

man hu Wrote:
Originally the Christians fled 'mountainous' Jerusalem and went to the mountains of Pella. This was across the Jordan, in the Decapolis. It was partially uninhabited because some Greeks had previously fled. It had fresh spring water.
This was a physical fleeing from an apparent refuge to a real refuge. The Christians according to Eusebius were warned to do this.


Agreed. But it could not have been all-encompassing. While many Christians fled, others didn't. Good-hearted Jews stayed as well. Jesus wanted them to literally leave, that was the instruction. But leaving or not didn't determine their judgment, it simply allowed them to physically live longer, allowing them to be blessed and continue on.[/quote]


philia, COMankind

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03-20-2011 10:26 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #28
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

man hu Wrote:
Originally the Christians fled 'mountainous' Jerusalem and went to the mountains of Pella. This was across the Jordan, in the Decapolis. It was partially uninhabited because some Greeks had previously fled. It had fresh spring water.
This was a physical fleeing from an apparent refuge to a real refuge. The Christians according to Eusebius were warned to do this.

The current message I believe is spiritual and to flee the corrupt city, Jerusalem/Babylon the Great and head for the Two Mountains of Jehovah and Jesus's reigns as mentioned in Daniel 2.


man hu,

head for the Two Mountains of Jehovah?

Could you please elucidate for me.

Why two?


In Christ

abe


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The Unforgivable Sin
03-20-2011 11:14 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #29
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

rus virgil Wrote:
=============================================

We see that the meaning of these words "Rock" , "Stone" and "mountains" in the above quotes is referred to living beings , as the first one (the ROCK) is the Only One Most High .

After reading these verses I think is very clear what the "mountains" are.

Firstly, at plural , "the mountains" are each one (anointed) individual who is a part of Christ's Body.

and at singular it is the whole Body living on earth (being seen by God as "a kingdom" ) at the time when the prophecy (in Matt.24:16) is accomplished.


in Christ,
rus virgil


rus,

It is interesting that you liken the mountains to each one of the anointed.

If we consider the womam or man "taken along" and the woman or man "left behind" then it becomes apparent that something perhaps spiritual separates them in regard to fleeing.


First of all can we determine if both the one left behind and the one taken along have both fled?

In Matthew Chapter 25 Jesus Christ continues in his description and provides further clarification to the same events described in Matthew Chapter 24.

Are the ones "taken along" the same as these:

Matthew 25:34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world.

and the ones "left behind" the same as these:

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

If so then I can see the connection between the anointed ones and a mountain.

Jesus Christ makes it very clear that the separation occurs entirely based on how his brothers were treated.


This raises a whole lot more questions!


In Christ

abe


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The Unforgivable Sin
03-20-2011 11:59 PM
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man hu
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Post: #30
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

ablebodiedman Wrote:

man hu Wrote:
Originally the Christians fled 'mountainous' Jerusalem and went to the mountains of Pella. This was across the Jordan, in the Decapolis. It was partially uninhabited because some Greeks had previously fled. It had fresh spring water.
This was a physical fleeing from an apparent refuge to a real refuge. The Christians according to Eusebius were warned to do this.

The current message I believe is spiritual and to flee the corrupt city, Jerusalem/Babylon the Great and head for the Two Mountains of Jehovah's and Jesus' reigns as mentioned in Daniel 2.


man hu,

head for the Two Mountains of Jehovah?

Could you please elucidate for me.

Why two?


In Christ

abe

Sorry grammar.

Jehovah's rulership is the first large mountain and Jesus' is the stone that is cut out of the first and then grows into a second mountain.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
03-21-2011 12:02 AM
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