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Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?
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Willa
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Post: #31
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

rus virgil Wrote:
Firstly, at plural , "the mountains" are each one (anointed) individual who is a part of Christ's Body.
and at singular it is the whole Body living on earth (being seen by God as "a kingdom" ) at the time when the prophecy (in Matt.24:16) is accomplished.

So are you saying that 'the anointed', according to the wt take on the f&ds parable, are the ones to whom 'we' should run in fleeing symbolic 'Judea'? Trying to clarify what you said.


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03-21-2011 09:50 AM
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isomam
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Post: #32
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

man hu Wrote:
head for the Two Mountains of Jehovah's [sovereignty] and Jesus' reign as mentioned in Daniel 2.


man hu Wrote:
Jehovah's rulership is the first large mountain and Jesus' is the stone that is cut out of the first and then grows into a second mountain.


hi, vicky! :hibye: long time, no talk to.

in my humble opinion, you've nailed it. :thumbup: :greatjob:


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Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

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03-21-2011 10:23 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #33
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

man hu Wrote:
Sorry grammar.

Jehovah's rulership is the first large mountain and Jesus' is the stone that is cut out of the first and then grows into a second mountain.


man hu,

Ok, perhaps it is my reading skills too?

Thing is, your conviction adds some creedence to what rus posted above:

1 Peter 2:
you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

In Matthew Chapter 25 the Olivet Prophecy continues when Jesus Christ goes on to describe events that will either save or condemn a person in the sheep and goats parable.

In my opinion the connection is very profound yet, raises a lot of questions.



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abe


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03-21-2011 11:19 AM
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Interpretum
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Post: #34
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Hi Folks

OK, as someone who believes Matthew 24 was fulfilled ONLY in the 1st century, I'm not particularly convinced by the arguments I've seen so far.

If "the mountains" represent something to do with Jehovah and/or Christ's kingdom, then WHY would a Christian only flee to it once they see "the disgusting thing that is causing desolation"?

Surely a person becomes part of that kingdom the moment they are baptized?

Also, let's look at Joel 2:32. Now, I believe (with scriptural support from the apostle Peter) that this was fulfilled in the 1st century, but regardless...

"And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of the LORD shall be delivered; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."

Aren't we given the mountains here? "In Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape".

Now, Jesus didn't tell them to flee Jerusalem... but to flee TO THE MOUNTAINS. Clearly, Mount Zion was one such mountain, but presumably there were other mountains in Jerusalem.

I suppose we could argue "Mount Zion" and "Jerusalem" have a spiritual application... but here's the confusion.

On the one hand, it's clear from Joel there would be survivors IN JERUSALEM... but on the other hand, we have Jesus telling us "let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it". (Luke 21:21)

So is "Jerusalem" good, or bad? What IS "Jerusalem"?

If it's NEW Jerusalem, why depart?

If you're IN, Jesus says "depart". If you're OUT... don't enter it. And yet there are survivors in "Mount Zion" and "Jerusalem".

Now, this isn't a problem for me, since this all occurred in the 1st century... but I'm wondering how you guys reconcile the two scriptures.

In other words, what is Jerusalem... both here (Matt 24; Luke 21) and in Joel 2... which both seem to be talking about the same events.


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03-21-2011 12:04 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #35
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Interpretum Wrote:
So is "Jerusalem" good, or bad? What IS "Jerusalem"?

If it's NEW Jerusalem, why depart?

If you're IN, Jesus says "depart". If you're OUT... don't enter it. And yet there are survivors in "Mount Zion" and "Jerusalem".

Now, this isn't a problem for me, since this all occurred in the 1st century... but I'm wondering how you guys reconcile the two scriptures.

In other words, what is Jerusalem... both here (Matt 24; Luke 21) and in Joel 2... which both seem to be talking about the same events.


Interpretum,

Jerusalem and the mountains are not geographic.

Please see the title of this thread.

If you want to start yet another preterist discussion please use one of the many thousands of other threads you have diverted.


In Christ


abe


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e-magine
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Post: #36
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

abe has postulated that, for a clue, we should look at what we are to flee from. Is it not what Vic has said, it is BTG.
In the first cent, the city Jerusalem represented the temple, where the "discusting thing", the roman armies was desecrating the literal temple.
In the last days, the spiritual temple is the body of Christians world wide. Therefore, the "discusting thing", must stand within Christian Organized religions. What could it be?
The UN is positioning itself to impose a one world religion. Its seed is implanted into Christendom first, then to spread to all religions. It is part of the "Anti Christ" and is right within the body of Christ, the spiritual temple, as abe has often shown. The WTS typifies but is not alone in this paradigm.
The "Diaglot" and other interliners don't support a Greek word that could denote the meaning of "begin" to flee, just to flee or escape to the mountains.
If we are alive and awake enough to "see" the discusting thing within Christendom, its time to get out of organized religion, and flee to the
"Mountains", the Father and the Son, away from religious creeds and dogma. Less religion, and more spirituality! IMHO.


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03-21-2011 01:16 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #37
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Jerusalem and the mountains are not geographic.

Please see the title of this thread.

If you want to start yet another preterist discussion please use one of the many thousands of other threads you have diverted.


I understand the title of this thread, and I'm not trying to divert it. Challenging your theories is hardly "diverting" this thread... unless you're just looking for people to agree with you.

I simply want to understand...

How does Joel 2:32 fit in with this? "...for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones"... specifically, what is Jerusalem here, and why are escaped ones IN Jerusalem here?

I think this is important for identifying "Jerusalem" and "the mountains"... don't you?


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03-21-2011 04:30 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #38
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Hi e

e-magine Wrote:
abe has postulated that, for a clue, we should look at what we are to flee from. Is it not what Vic has said, it is BTG.


Maybe, but don't you think it interesting that NOWHERE in Revelation are people told to flee TO anywhere. All it says is...

"Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues." (Rev 18:4)

It seems to me that all that matters is that we GET OUT OF Babylon The Great.

If it mattered, why is the issue not discussed here in Revelation?

Quote:
The UN is positioning itself to impose a one world religion. Its seed is implanted into Christendom first, then to spread to all religions. It is part of the "Anti Christ" and is right within the body of Christ, the spiritual temple, as abe has often shown. The WTS typifies but is not alone in this paradigm.


Do you REALLY believe this will happen? I'd probably say... sooner would heaven and earth pass away, than all religions become unified into one. I don't believe the UN has a chance at this!

Having said that, the only person who COULD unify them is Jesus Christ... but he comes specifically AFTER Babylon The Great falls, and the cities of the nations fall.

Quote:
The "Diaglot" and other interliners don't support a Greek word that could denote the meaning of "begin" to flee, just to flee or escape to the mountains.
If we are alive and awake enough to "see" the discusting thing within Christendom, its time to get out of organized religion, and flee to the
"Mountains", the Father and the Son, away from religious creeds and dogma. Less religion, and more spirituality! IMHO.


I agree with the sentiment, just not with the details :) It sounds like a new improved blend of Watchtowerism to me.

Does Jehovah prefer disorganized religion? I don't see the worship of ancient Israel... or the 1st century congregation... as particularly disorganized :)

How do you define "Christendom"? Don't forget, many people here (including Mavos) belong to denominations that would be considered part of "Christendom".


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03-21-2011 04:43 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #39
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Jerusalem and the mountains are not geographic.

Please see the title of this thread.

If you want to start yet another preterist discussion please use one of the many thousands of other threads you have diverted.


I understand the title of this thread, and I'm not trying to divert it. Challenging your theories is hardly "diverting" this thread... unless you're just looking for people to agree with you.

I simply want to understand...

How does Joel 2:32 fit in with this? "...for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones"... specifically, what is Jerusalem here, and why are escaped ones IN Jerusalem here?

I think this is important for identifying "Jerusalem" and "the mountains"... don't you?


Interpretum,

In my opinion Mount Zion, Jerusalem, the Booth of David are the spiritual entity which began its rebuilding in the 1st Century. (Acts 15)

Having been undermined by a man of lawlessness, a son of destruction, a disgusting thing immediately prior to the conclusion of things God's people are to flee. (2Th2 and Mt24)

The ones who undermined the spiritual entity will be desolated at the conclusion of the system of things.

After the conclusion of the system of things spiritual Jerusalem and Mount Zion will be repossessed by the ones who initially escaped.

Matthew 25:34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world.

That is how I reconcile the circumstances.

Which brings me back to the topic of this thread:

Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?


In Christ

abe


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03-21-2011 04:56 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #40
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Maybe these scriptures will help people understand the circumstances.

The Kingdom AT the conclusion:

Matthew 13:39-43
The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


The Kingdom AFTER the conclusion:

Matthew 25:34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world.


the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun IN the kingdom of their Father.

After the conclusion The Kingdom will be reposessed by the righteous.


Immediately prior to that they will have fled.


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abe


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03-21-2011 05:16 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #41
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
In my opinion Mount Zion, Jerusalem, the Booth of David are the spiritual entity which began its rebuilding in the 1st Century. (Acts 15)


OK, I'll concede it's a good theory... although I still think it's an "unauthorized" interpretation of Jesus' words... but lets run with it for now.

I'm curious to know how Revelation fits with your theory.

For example, of the "great multitude", we are told:

"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev 7:14)

Leaving aside their specific identity, if they have already "come out of the great tribulation", presumably they don't need to flee any more?

Also, with the 144,000 a little later, the account says...

"Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads." (Rev 14:1)

It appears they have ALREADY been redeemed by this point in Revelation... "these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb" (14:4)

Leaving aside again their identity... since they are already on Mount Zion with the Lamb, and have already been redeemed, there is no need for them to flee anymore, right?

Also, we have the visionary language of those singing the song of Moses:

"And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands." (Rev 15:2)

It seems to me, that these too have ALREADY gained victory. They don't seem to need to flee, either.

So who ARE those fleeing Babylon The Great... if the "great crowd" don't need to, the 144,000 of Rev 14 don't need to, and "those who had conquered the beast" not needing to?

My point is... the "great crowd", the 144,000 and "those who had conquered the beast" (their identities might overlap) have ALREADY fled before the fall of BTG in Revelation 16-19!

So who is left to flee?

I have a solution... but you're not going to like it :)

However, I'll concede that Revelation does partially support the idea of a spiritual viewpoint. I think we can both agree the "Mount Zion" of 144,000 is not literal. (Or if it is, I'd have to become a FULL Preterist!)

However, I can't see who would NEED to flee Babylon The great if we applied your theory to Revelation, since the 144,000 and "great crowd" are already safe.


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03-21-2011 05:36 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #42
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Interpretum,

Are you assuming that the entire Book of Revelation is a list of contiguous events?

If so, then I understand your dilemma.

The resurrection is mentioned in Chapter 11.

Does that mean everything mentioned in succeeding chapters is in regard to the resurrected?

The harvest is mentioned in chapter 14.

Is that the same harvest mentioned in Matthew chapter 13?

So if God's people are already harvested in Chapter 14 what is it they have to get out of in Chapter 18?

So yes, your post above seems to assume a literal calendar of events and yet there is plenty of evidence in the Book of Revelation that is not the case.

So back to the question which initiated the thread:

Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?


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abe


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03-21-2011 07:27 PM
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Willa
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Post: #43
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Quote:
Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

From what words or phrases within those scriptures are we to suppose they're anything but literal geographic Jerusalem? Is there a good reason to type/antitype this particular scenario?

As was explained to me by a sister, we NEED to know who the f&ds are - we need to FIND them and be 'fed' by them and loyally OBEDIENT to them as per Jesus' instructions, because only they have been given authority over the Christian congregations. (Jesus never instucted such a thing, nor does the wt teach the truth about Jesus' sheep, etc., etc., etc...). She also repeated another wt twist - "where else could we possibly go?" We well know the difference inferred by correcting the 'where' to 'whom'. And it just feels to me like that's where this is going. Could be wrong - happens lots!

What do you think is the answer to your own question? Just bottom-line it for us, won't you Abe? Can't help but wonder if this is progressing into a watchtoweresque lesson. :l


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03-21-2011 08:53 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Are you assuming that the entire Book of Revelation is a list of contiguous events?


No, but there is a general ordering of events. For example, the seven trumpets are only blown upon the opening of the seventh seal... the seven last plagues are called LAST, so presumably they're not first, etc.

Revelation is not a collection of randomly timed visions... but has the order SEALS > TRUMPETS > LAST PLAGUES.

So I'm curious to know why anyone has to flee when Babylon falls in the sixth of the last plagues, while the 144,000 are already sealed PRIOR to the seven trumpets (when earth, sea and trees ARE harmed), and the "great crowd" have ALREADY come out of the "great tribulation".

Surely this is relevant to WHO, specifically, is to flee... so does have a bearing on your question.

Quote:
The resurrection is mentioned in Chapter 11.

Does that mean everything mentioned in succeeding chapters is in regard to the resurrected?


No, because after chapter 11 the 144,000 are safely in heaven with Christ... i.e. on Mount Zion.

I agree, it's not entirely clear that Rev 14 automatically follows Rev 13 in time sequence. However, the narrative seems to make it logically follow. After forcing the mark of the beast (in Rev 13), in Rev 14 the 144,000 bear the mark of GOD... and then one of the three angels proclaims a woe to anyone having the mark of the beast... but one cannot have a mark UNTIL it's introduced... so it seems natural to me that Rev 14 follows Rev 13.

Quote:
The harvest is mentioned in chapter 14.

Is that the same harvest mentioned in Matthew chapter 13?

So if God's people are already harvested in Chapter 14 what is it they have to get out of in Chapter 18?


It certainly seems to be an allusion to the harvest of Matthew 13, although not necessarily the same thing. Given that Christians have been around for 2,000 years, is it possible that this world has been harvested more than once?

Quote:
So back to the question which initiated the thread:

Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?


It seems your question has been answered in this thread.

(a) the governments of the world, or
(b) the government of Jehovah and Jesus Christ.

It seems the majority on this thread believe he was talking about fleeing to a spiritual mountain, i.e. Jehovah and Jesus, or their Kingdom, or spiritual Mount Zion... something like that.

What I don't understand is... if that is the case... why wait?

Shouldn't all Christians already BE under this Kingdom?

Incidentally, what do the WTS teach in this regard? What do THEY say "the mountains" are, in their "our day" interpretation cooked up by Rutherford and company?


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03-21-2011 09:10 PM
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isomam
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Post: #45
RE: Where are the Mountains if not geographic Jerusalem?

Interpretum Wrote:
Surely this is relevant to WHO, specifically, is to flee... so does have a bearing on your question.

...

It seems the majority on this thread believe he was talking about fleeing to a spiritual mountain, i.e. Jehovah and Jesus, or their Kingdom, or spiritual Mount Zion... something like that.

What I don't understand is... if that is the case... why wait?

Shouldn't all Christians already BE under this Kingdom?


is it possible that jesus' injunction (for the second and larger fulfillment) is addressed to a larger audience than 'christians' only? :whistle:


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
03-21-2011 09:18 PM
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