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In the wilderness - so now what?
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ablebodiedman
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In the wilderness - so now what?

I have tried to get some discussion going for people who seem convinced they are now in that wilderness condition described in the Book of Revelation.

Without much success. :(

In my opinion it represents such a dilemma that there ought to be some scriptures outside of the Book of Revelation which gives more detail.

After all, revelation implies a revealing of previous things which were hidden.

In my opinion many of those things are hidden in plain sight, also within the scriptures.

My motive is simply to provide an opportunity for these things to be researched by like minded people who also want to find the answers.

No, I do not know all the answers.

I do know however, that this forum is one of the very few places where people actually recognise they are in that wilderness condition.

The benefits of such a discussion should be mutual.

One of the problems from being in this wilderness condition is that I see no one asking the immediately obvious question; "what now"?

I do understand why some Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses conclude that they are in the wilderness. Simply due to the betrayal of what they at one time thought was Christianity.

That is also my conclusion.

A Jehovah's Witness in good standing would immediately respond to us with; "where else shall we go"?

A good question!

Every other Church would tell us; "come here we have the truth".

If we do recognise that we are in this wilderness condition however, then the Book of Revelation indicates that it is the right place to be.

I am comfortable recognising this.

If you are also comfortable recognizing this, then, have you asked the question; "what now"?

This is what I would like to explore in this thread.


In Christ


abe


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Interpretum
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Post: #2
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

Hi Abe

From a Futurist point of view, to which many on this site loosely subscribe, they are NOT yet "in the wilderness".

This scripture might indicate the problem:

"But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time." (Rev 12:14)

In other words, to believe you are "in the wilderness", you also have to believe you are in that 3 1/2 year period... but most here believe that is still future.

Many Christians believe this is part of a larger 7 year "end times" period, based on Daniel 9 (incorrectly, in my opinion)... presumably with this 3 1/2 year period being part of it.

Now, my purpose for bringing this up is not to (yet again) debate each other's viewpoints... but simply that, because I'm familiar with Futurism (I used to believe in that concept for a while), I'd say this verse would be the biggest stumbling block for many Futurists to accept they are in the same wilderness as described here.

Also, another stumbling block may simply be that many here do not subscribe any more to the view that JWs are EXCLUSIVELY God's people. Therefore, just because they might be excluded from the JW organization, doesn't make them "in the wilderness" from God's point of view.

Indeed, many ex-JWs have successfully moved on, and have become fully mature Christians who realize that it does not matter WHERE one worships... so much as WHO (whom?) one worships.

I appreciate you have differing views, and it's not my intention here to challenge those... I'm just suggesting to you two reasons why your discussions may have had only limited success.


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03-25-2011 03:03 PM
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e-magine
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RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

I feel like I'm in the wilderness and I'm fine with that. I feel like I've been in the wilderness longer the 3 1/2 years. I don't think 3 1/2 is a literal time.
..What now? A time too grow spiritually. A time to learn many things that were put "on the shelf" during the last 40 years. Exploring anything without fear of ridicule. This is a great time to be alive!
Everyday is an adventure!
..I only regret I didn't get out of the JW box sooner.


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03-25-2011 03:20 PM
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Mavos
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RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

Interpretum Wrote:
Also, another stumbling block may simply be that many here do not subscribe any more to the view that JWs are EXCLUSIVELY God's people. Therefore, just because they might be excluded from the JW organization, doesn't make them "in the wilderness" from God's point of view.

Indeed, many ex-JWs have successfully moved on, and have become fully mature Christians who realize that it does not matter WHERE one worships... so much as WHO (whom?) one worships.


You are right that some here do not subscribe to the view that the JWs are EXCLUSIVELY God's people. But it should be noted that some here, like myself, would question if they were EVER God's people, especially given their repudiation of historic Christianity.

A Christian is someone who has repented of their sins, trusted in Christ, and has been mystically united to Christ by the powerful work of the Spirit. The entire group of Christians, past, present, and future, is called the Church. The Church is represented visibly on Earth in the form of fellowships, communities, congregations, or assemblies of Christians who gather to worship God and Christ, preach the Word, and administer the Lord Supper and Baptism. This visible manifestation of the Church contains both wheat and weeds, sheep and goats, good fish and bad fish. It is not confined exclusively to any one group, organization, sect, schism, or denomination within historic Christianity. All groups, organizations, sects, schisms, and denominations within historic Christianity are subject to varying degrees and mixtures of truth and error, but all contain true Christians.


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
03-25-2011 03:26 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #5
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

Interpretum,

Yes, I know that some people are not comfortable recognising this.

Especially if they feel intimidated by the thought that they may not be seen as "mature Christians" by people who are not comfortable recognising this.

Perhaps not seeing the lame yet, insidious ad-hominem argument for what it really is.

Threatened into silence.

I am trying to create an environment that emancipates them from the threat.

Your post above holds them captive.


In Christ

abe


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03-25-2011 03:28 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

Mavos Wrote:

Interpretum Wrote:
Also, another stumbling block may simply be that many here do not subscribe any more to the view that JWs are EXCLUSIVELY God's people. Therefore, just because they might be excluded from the JW organization, doesn't make them "in the wilderness" from God's point of view.

Indeed, many ex-JWs have successfully moved on, and have become fully mature Christians who realize that it does not matter WHERE one worships... so much as WHO (whom?) one worships.


You are right that some here do not subscribe to the view that the JWs are EXCLUSIVELY God's people. But it should be noted that some here, like myself, would question if they were EVER God's people, especially given their repudiation of historic Christianity.

A Christian is someone who has repented of their sins, trusted in Christ, and has been mystically united to Christ by the powerful work of the Spirit. The entire group of Christians, past, present, and future, is called the Church. The Church is represented visibly on Earth in the form of congregation or assembly of Christians who gather to worship God and Christ, preach the Word, and administer the Lord Supper and Baptism. The visible manifestation of the Church contains both wheat and weeds, sheep and goats, good fish and bad fish. It is not confined exclusively to any one group, organization, sect, schism, or denomination within historic Christianity. All groups, organizations, sects, schisms, and denominations within historic Christianity are subject to varying degrees and mixtures of truth and error.


Mavos,

I don't see what this has to do with "In the wilderness - so now what"?


In Christ

abe


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03-25-2011 03:34 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #7
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

e-magine Wrote:
I feel like I'm in the wilderness and I'm fine with that. I feel like I've been in the wilderness longer the 3 1/2 years. I don't think 3 1/2 is a literal time.
..What now? A time too grow spiritually. A time to learn many things that were put "on the shelf" during the last 40 years. Exploring anything without fear of ridicule. This is a great time to be alive!
Everyday is an adventure!
..I only regret I didn't get out of the JW box sooner.



e-magine,

Wow!

There are some people who understand the topic.

Understanding that you will be ridiculed is a good first step.

Removing the fear is a challenge in the face of that same ridicule.

A time to learn things is the implication the Book of Revelation does imply.

Those new things are unlikely to have much similarity to the traditional or mainstream Church dogma which has endured for centuries.

So if revelation is a revealing, then a revealing of what?

I believe some old testament scriptures can help.

Like the dirge in Ezekeil Chapter 19.

Notice what it says at the end of the dirge:

Ezekiel 19:13-14
And now she is planted in the wilderness, in a waterless and thirsty land. 14 And fire proceeded to come forth from [her] rod. It devoured her very shoots, her very fruit, and there proved to be in her no strong rod, no scepter for ruling.

“‘That is a dirge, and it will become a dirge.’”




How about that!

An Old Testament scripture about a woman in the wilderness!


In Christ

abe


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03-25-2011 03:47 PM
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Seraphim
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RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

Christians are not supposed to be in the wilderness, we are supposed to be in the kingdom, which means we gather and organise to do God will `on earth as it is in heaven.` People say organised religion is bad, its not, its the bad Christians in organised religion that are bad because there are also good Christians in organised religion.

03-25-2011 04:01 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

Seraphim Wrote:
Christians are not supposed to be in the wilderness, we are supposed to be in the kingdom, which means we gather and organise to do God will `on earth as it is in heaven.` People say organised religion is bad, its not, its the bad Christians in organised religion that are bad because there are also good Christians in organised religion.


Seraphim,

Yep, that is a very big and controversial topic.

Maybe you could start a thread to discuss it?


In Christ

abe


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03-25-2011 04:06 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #10
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

I thought id follow your example of diverting every topic to end time scenarios but OK if you insist.

03-25-2011 04:28 PM
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RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Perhaps not seeing the lame yet, insidious ad-hominem argument for what it really is.


Ad hominem? I'm simply saying that many ex-JWs no longer feel "in the wilderness", because they've found Christ or a church in which they feel they belong. I wasn't implying anything more by it. Sorry if it came across that way.

Quote:
Threatened into silence.

I am trying to create an environment that emancipates them from the threat.

Your post above holds them captive.


I'm not trying to hold anyone captive, and besides, everybody on this forum has their own mind. I was simply pointing out why you might have had limited success in your discussions.

In other words... bottom line is, not everyone here feels they're "in the wilderness" in the sense that Revelation means it.

Besides, if a person IS "in the wilderness" in the Revelation sense... doesn't that mean Satan has ALREADY been cast out of heaven?

"And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had borne the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness..." (Rev 12:13,14)

Of course, that's not a problem for either of us, because we both believe Satan has already been cast out of heaven... but it IS a problem for some.


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03-25-2011 04:39 PM
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rus virgil
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Post: #12
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

ablebodiedman Wrote:

e-magine Wrote:
I feel like I'm in the wilderness and I'm fine with that. I feel like I've been in the wilderness longer the 3 1/2 years. I don't think 3 1/2 is a literal time.
..What now? A time too grow spiritually. A time to learn many things that were put "on the shelf" during the last 40 years. Exploring anything without fear of ridicule. This is a great time to be alive!
Everyday is an adventure!
..I only regret I didn't get out of the JW box sooner.



e-magine,

Wow!

There are some people who understand the topic.

Understanding that you will be ridiculed is a good first step.

Removing the fear is a challenge in the face of that same ridicule.

A time to learn things is the implication the Book of Revelation does imply.

Those new things are unlikely to have much similarity to the traditional or mainstream Church dogma which has endured for centuries.

So if revelation is a revealing, then a revealing of what?

I believe some old testament scriptures can help.

.....................................
.....................................


In Christ

abe


Greetings everyone!

my words here are not an answer directed to the two posters I quoted above , but I quoted this part because there are some good thoughts and ideas expressed here.

In my thread "the teaching of Christ" I have tried to put the things (which were prophesied to happen during the "latter days" ) into a chronological order , or "forward" , but I did not have success.

Here this topic is proper to a discussion regarding these events in an "backward" direction , that is from today's situation/experiences , step before step until we will arrive to the "first" events of the "latter days" (may be so is easier to understand )

Well, some Christians think today we are in "wilderness" , and they mean that after being "expelled" from "organization"

that would imply that being "inside" of "God's organization" /prior of their "expelling" they had been in an "better place" , or right in God's organization .
Is that true ?
was ever the WT God's earthly organization ? or, how ,really, God saw it ?
if it sometime before was in "good standing" before God, how and when and why was that situation changed ?

Of course , the answers to these questions were "sealed" in the Bible but there is a good reason to think that the time for the "unsealing" them is here .

regarding our "understanding" Jehovah said
Jeremiah 30
24. The fierce anger of Jehovah shall not return, until he have executed, and until he have performed the purposes of his heart.
At the end of the days ye shall consider it.
Darby trans.

Here I stop myself for letting you think and speak .
Anyway, it is better to compare the Revelation (13) with other prophecies of the "old" time for a better understanding and that, because it is written (as Jesus said) in John 16:
13. But when *he* is come, the Spirit of truth,
he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming.
Darby .

"into all the truth" means into "all God's word" or all Bible (from Mose's books to Revelation) .

and don't miss the "basis" of the prophecy interpretation , which is the "teaching of Christ"

in Christ,
rus virgil

03-25-2011 05:45 PM
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e-magine
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Post: #13
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

According to Rev 12, we should be feeding the woman, while in the wilderness. The woman fled to the wilderness at the time her male child
was caught away to God and his thrown. I take that to mean the time when Jesus was resurected and is at Gods right hand. So the wilderness started at that time in 33 CE.
..But on a more personal level, I feel like a spy who is "out in the cold", incognito, but still functioning. I am now where the woman is.
..It is like when the Christians fled Judea for the mountains. what did they do while they were there? Did they form an organizational church?
The Church of Pella? No. But they did feed each other I'm sure, and got on with their lives as best they could.
..Thats where I think we are. Caring for each other, and talking about God and whats to be. And staying alert. I don't want to "come in out of the cold" This is where we should be. Isolated. Not from each other, but from the trouble coming upon the dogmatic religions and their traditions. Free to soar with the Eagles.


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He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
03-25-2011 05:59 PM
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e-magine
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Post: #14
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

..So what are the rest of you doing?

good topic abe


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03-25-2011 08:12 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

e-magine,

Yep, I think there is a price to pay for all those dastardly deeds done in the name of Christianity.

I do not think that Jesus Christ or Jehovah will be so merciful after having their names associated with all the outright hypocricies that I see happening.

I sometimes listen to athiests explaining why they don't believe in God and often the explanation is because of what they see Christians doing.

"Get out of her my people" becomes a very credible warning when measured against those hypocricies we see and hear about.

Get out, but go where is another question I often ask myself.

In these circumstances the wilderness condition seems so plausible.

Did you read the dirge in Ezekiel Chapter 19 where the end result is a woman in the wilderness?

Ezekiel Chapter 20 also fills in some detail regarding this dirge in my opinion.

Maybe my next post should just be a synopsis of Ezekiel Chapter 20.


In Christ

abe


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03-25-2011 08:16 PM
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