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In the wilderness - so now what?
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isomam
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Post: #16
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

e-magine Wrote:
So what are the rest of you doing?


doing the best i can to live a christ-centered life, following his footsteps as closely as i can, and trying to further cultivate the fruitage of the spirit. all while seeking to love and encourage others as opportunity affords.


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
03-25-2011 08:19 PM
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gogh
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Post: #17
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

Re: "..So what are the rest of you doing?"

This question: "..so now what?"

a quote:

"Information like that is given out on a need to know basis only, and at this particular time you do not need to know."

ha, ha, grin...just fool'n with ya'll.

serious mode:

I have asked it. Therefore it is, imo, a valid question, grin.

Keep the faith. The one and only faith.

"Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

more :coffeeread:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
03-25-2011 08:30 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #18
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

A woman in the wilderness mentioned at the end of the dirge in Ezekiel Chapter 19.


Ezekiel 19:12-14

To the earth she was thrown, and there was an east wind that dried up her fruit. Her strong rod was torn off and became dry. Fire itself devoured it. 13 And now she is planted in the wilderness, in a waterless and thirsty land. 14 And fire proceeded to come forth from [her] rod. It devoured her very shoots, her very fruit, and there proved to be in her no strong rod, no scepter for ruling.

“‘That is a dirge, and it will become a dirge.’”



The dirge is very obscure and yet I believe that Ezekiel Chapter 20 goes on to give some detail about the events which should happen while in the wilderness comparing them directly to the ancient Egyptian Exodus.

In my opinion this scripture speaks directly to those who are brought into the wilderness as described in Revelation Chapter 12.

An Old Testament scripture whose meaning has a chance to be revealed through the Book of Revelation and vice versa.

Thought it might be helpful to give a synopsis of Ezekeil Chapter 20 in the hopes it might engender some more discussion around the question raised in the threads title.

If this scripture is indeed addressing the Revelation Chapter 12 woman in the wilderness then it implies Christians and not Jews.

Yes, that is bound to be a difficult concept for many people who doubt the "replacement theology".

********************************************

So here we go:

Ezekiel 20:1-3
Now it came about in the seventh year, in the fifth [month], on the tenth [day] of the month, [that] men from the elderly ones of Israel came in to inquire of Jehovah, and they proceeded to sit down before me. 2 Then the word of Jehovah occurred to me, saying: 3 “Son of man, speak with the elderly men of Israel, and you must say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Is it in order to inquire of me that YOU men are coming? ‘As I am alive, I will not be inquired of by YOU,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”’


Jehovah will not be inquired of by the ruling class of Christians during the time of the end.

Yes, this seems kind of strange until other scriptures such as 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2 and the man of lawlessness, son of destruction is considered.

Ezekiel 20:4
“Will you judge them? Will you judge [them], O son of man? Cause them to know the detestable things of their forefathers.

The judgement of these end time Christian elite is given to Ezekiel.

The detestable things of their forefathers is now directly associated with the ancient Egyptian Exodus:

Ezekiel 20:4-7
And you must say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “In the day of my choosing Israel, I also proceeded to lift up my hand [in an oath] to the seed of the house of Jacob and to make myself known to them in the land of Egypt. Yes, I proceeded to lift up my hand [in an oath] to them, saying, ‘I am Jehovah YOUR God.’ 6 In that day I lifted up my hand [in an oath] to them to bring them forth from the land of Egypt to a land that I had spied out for them, one flowing with milk and honey. It was the decoration of all the lands. 7 And I went on to say to them, ‘Throw away, each one of YOU, the disgusting things of his eyes, and with the dungy idols of Egypt do not defile yourselves. I am Jehovah YOUR God.’

Just as in the Egyptian Exodus an incredible hope of entering a promised new land (kingdom) is set before the Christians. This hope however, is conditional just as it was in ancient days.


Ezekiel 20:8-10
‘“And they began to rebel against me, and they did not consent to listen to me. The disgusting things of their eyes they did not individually throw away, and the dungy idols of Egypt they did not leave, so that I promised to pour out my rage upon them, in order to bring my anger to its finish upon them in the midst of the land of Egypt. 9 And I went acting for the sake of my own name that [it] might not be profaned before the eyes of the nations in among whom they were, because I had made myself known to them before their eyes on bringing them forth from the land of Egypt. 10 So I brought them forth from the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.

The Christian "woman in the wilderness" condition is still being directly associated with the ancient Egyptian Exodus. Keep in mind this was not an entirely pleasant experience for Jehovah who was being continually disappointed by the people to whom he had extended an extraordinary opportunity.

Ezekiel 20:11-16
11 “‘“And I proceeded to give them my statutes; and my judicial decisions I made known to them, in order that the man who keeps doing them might also keep living by them. 12 And my sabbaths I also gave to them, to become a sign between me and them, in order [for them] to know that I am Jehovah who is sanctifying them.
13 “‘“But they, the house of Israel, rebelled against me in the wilderness. In my statutes they did not walk, and my judicial decisions they rejected, which, should the man keep doing, he will also keep living by them. And my sabbaths they profaned very much, so that I promised to pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, in order to exterminate them. 14 But I acted for the sake of my own name that [it] might not be profaned before the eyes of the nations, before whose eyes I had brought them forth. 15 And I myself also lifted up my hand [in an oath] to them in the wilderness, not to bring them into the land that I had given, one flowing with milk and honey, (it is the decoration of all the lands,) 16 for the reason that they rejected my own judicial decisions; and as regards my statutes, they did not walk in them, and my sabbaths they profaned, because it was after their dungy idols that their heart was going.



Keep in mind here that if the ancient Egyptian exodus is being compared to the end time Christian situation then the statutes and judicial decisions are all those that Jesus Christ gave to us in the gospels.

Ezekiel 20:17-20
“‘“And my eye began to feel sorry for them [to keep me] from bringing them to ruin, and I did not make an extermination of them in the wilderness. 18 And I proceeded to say to their sons in the wilderness, ‘In the regulations of your forefathers do not YOU walk, and their judgments do not YOU keep, and with their dungy idols do not YOU defile yourselves. 19 I am Jehovah YOUR God. Walk in my own statutes, and keep my own judicial decisions and do them. 20 And sanctify my own sabbaths, and they must serve as a sign between me and YOU, [for YOU] to know that I am Jehovah YOUR God.’


A last chance opportunity is once again extended to those in the wilderness.


Ezekiel 20:21-26
“‘“And the sons began to rebel against me. In my statutes they did not walk, and my judicial decisions they did not keep by doing them, which, should the man keep doing, he will also keep living by them. My sabbaths they profaned. So I promised to pour out my rage upon them, in order to bring my anger to its finish upon them in the wilderness. 22 And I drew back my hand and went acting for the sake of my own name, that [it] should not be profaned before the eyes of the nations, before whose eyes I had brought them out. 23 Also, I myself lifted up my hand [in an oath] to them in the wilderness, to scatter them among the nations and to disperse them among the lands, 24 for the reason that they did not carry out my own judicial decisions and they rejected my own statutes and they profaned my own sabbaths, and it was after the dungy idols of their forefathers that their eyes proved to be. 25 And I myself also let them have regulations that were not good and judicial decisions by which they could not keep living. 26 And I would let them become defiled by their gifts when [they] made every child opening the womb pass through [the fire], in order that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am Jehovah.”’


The ancient Jews received further laws with the consequences carefully explained.


Ezekiel 20:27-29
Therefore speak to the house of Israel, O son of man, and you must say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Yet in this respect, YOUR forefathers spoke abusively of me, in their acting against me with unfaithfulness. 28 And I proceeded to bring them into the land that I had lifted up my hand [in an oath] to give them. When they got to see every exalted hill and every branchy tree, then they began sacrificing there their sacrifices and giving there their offensive offering, and presenting there their restful odors and pouring out there their drink offerings. 29 So I said to them, ‘What does the high place mean to which YOU are coming, that its name should be called a High Place down to this day?’”’


In this scripture the comparison to the ancient Egyptian exodus to the "woman in the wilderness" starts to become apparent.

Ezekiel 20:30-32
“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “In the way of YOUR forefathers are YOU people defiling yourselves, and after their disgusting things are YOU going in immoral intercourse? 31 And in lifting up YOUR gifts by making YOUR sons pass through the fire, are YOU defiling yourselves for all YOUR dungy idols down till today? At the same time shall I myself be inquired of by YOU people, O house of Israel?”’
“‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘I will not be inquired of by YOU. 32 And that which is coming up into YOUR spirit will itself positively not happen, in that YOU are saying: “Let us become like the nations, like the families of the lands, in ministering to wood and stone.”’”



The comparison to the events regarding the ancient Egyption Exodus is now brought forward to the situation found inside of Christianity during the time of the end.

"Let us become like the nations" suggests that Christianity would be undermined.

Can we really tell the difference between a Christian Society and any other society including athiests, while living in the time of the end?

I think if there is a difference it often only exists in peoples imagination.

In fact many athiests today deny God simply because they see Christianity as a perpetrator of evil things and not good.

The blatant hypocricies inside Christianity are continually being exposed by the media justifying the accusations that athiests are keen to make.


Ezekiel 20:33-35
“‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘it will be with a strong hand and with a stretched-out arm and with outpoured rage that I will rule as king over YOU people. 34 And I will bring YOU forth from the peoples, and I will collect YOU together out of the lands to which YOU have been scattered with a strong hand and with a stretched-out arm and with outpoured rage. 35 And I will bring YOU into the wilderness of the peoples and put myself on judgment with YOU there face to face.


The Egyptian Exodus is now directly compared to a Christian Exodus, except in this circumstance the Christians are scattered throughout the world and yet still brought into a wilderness.

Is the "wilderness of the peoples" a literal wilderness or a spiritual destination?

Ezekiel 20:36-38
“‘Just as I put myself on judgment with YOUR forefathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I shall put myself on judgment with YOU,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. 37 ‘And I will make YOU pass under the rod and bring YOU into the bond of the covenant. 38 And I will clean out from YOU the revolters and the transgressors against me, for out of the land of their alien residence I shall bring them forth, but onto the soil of Israel they will not come; and YOU people will have to know that I am Jehovah.’

Understand that here a judgement condition is once again upon those who are in this wilderness condition.

The scripture above is comparing the "woman in the wilderness" experience directly to the ancient Egyptian Exodus experience except this time the people are brought together from many different lands.

Notice that a covenant plays a key role in this wilderness experience.

There may be people who would say this scripture is in regard to the literal Jewish return to the geographic Nation of Israel which did indeed occur in the 20th Century.

Yet the covenant made with the ancient Jews has already been replaced with a new covenant. A Christian covenant.

Does that mean the Jews who did return to the literal soil of Israel in the 20th Century were brought into the bond of the new covenant?

If so, they are all now Christians!

But that is not the case.

So this scripture cannot be reconciled with the literal return of Jews to the geographic Israel in the 20th Century.


Ezekiel 20:39-41
“And YOU, O house of Israel, this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Go serve each one of YOU his own dungy idols. And afterward if YOU are not listening to me, then my holy name YOU will no more profane by YOUR gifts and by YOUR dungy idols.’
40 “‘For in my holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘there is where they, the whole house of Israel in its entirety, will serve me, in the land. There I shall take pleasure in them, and there I shall require YOUR contributions and the firstfruits of YOUR presentations in all YOUR holy things. 41 Because of the restful odor I shall take pleasure in YOU, when I bring YOU forth from the peoples and I actually collect YOU together from the lands to which YOU have been scattered, and I will be sanctified in YOU before the eyes of the nations.’



If the return of the Jews to the geographic Nation of Israel in the 20th Century is the collecting together from all the lands to which they have been scattered, then has God's name been sanctified if the vast majority of the Jewish people who live there still deny Jesus Christ?

I don't think so.

Ezekiel 20:42-44
“‘And YOU people will have to know that I am Jehovah, when I bring YOU onto the soil of Israel, into the land that I lifted up my hand [in an oath] to give to YOUR forefathers. 43 And YOU will certainly remember there YOUR ways and all YOUR dealings by which YOU defiled yourselves, and YOU will actually feel a loathing at YOUR own faces because of all YOUR bad things that YOU did. 44 And YOU will have to know that I am Jehovah when I take action with YOU for the sake of my name, not according to YOUR bad ways or according to YOUR corrupted dealings, O house of Israel,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”

Yes, I can see how a non-Messianic Jew might think this scriptured is fulfilling what is currently happening in geographic Israel today.

Yet, Jesus Christ is entirely excluded from their conviction.

This leads me to believe this Chapter in Ezekiel will have its fulfillment on Christian terms in regard to the new covenant and not the old one.

All those Jews in Israel would need to have been baptised.

Ezekiel 20:45-48
And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 46 “Son of man, set your face in the direction of the southern quarter and drip [words] to the south, and prophesy to the forest of the field of [the] south. 47 And you must say to the forest of the south, ‘Hear the word of Jehovah. This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Here I am setting a fire ablaze against you, and it must devour in you every still-moist tree and every dry tree. The kindling flame will not be extinguished, and by it all faces must be scorched from [the] south to the north. 48 And all those of flesh must see that I myself, Jehovah, have set it afire, so that it will not be extinguished.”’”


In my opinion "all those of flesh" have not yet seen this.

A fire that will not be extinguished!

What kind of fire is there which cannot be extinguished?

The only one I can find has to do with Jesus Christ's baptism:

Matthew 3:11-12
That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.

with fire that cannot be put out - Matthew Ch3

I myself, Jehovah, have set it afire, so that it will not be extinguished - Ezekeil Ch20

Isaiah 66:23-24
“And it will certainly occur that from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath all flesh will come in to bow down before me,” Jehovah has said. 24 “And they will actually go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that were transgressing against me; for the very worms upon them will not die and their fire itself will not be extinguished, and they must become something repulsive to all flesh.”

Luke 12:49-53
I came to start a fire on the earth, and what more is there for me to wish if it has already been lighted? 50 Indeed, I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how I am being distressed until it is finished! 51 Do YOU imagine I came to give peace on the earth? No, indeed, I tell YOU, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against [her] mother, mother-in-law against [her] daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against [her] mother-in-law.”



The fire that will not be extinguished is all about Jesus Christs Baptism.


Christianity!



In Christ

abe


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e-magine
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Post: #19
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

abe, I see the woman as the complete body of Christians that been released from apostate Christendom, and planted in the wilderness.
Yes, it is dry compared to the riches of false religion. But what is her "rod"? Are we to be burning figuritive twigs to stay warm?
...Im trying to make a connection with Rev 12.
Those who stay behind will not be able to inquire of Jehovah (be heard by him), as Jesus said, "Lord, didn't we pray in your name?". "Get away from me, I DO NOT KNOW YOU"


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Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
03-26-2011 09:23 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #20
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

e-magine Wrote:
abe, I see the woman as the complete body of Christians that been released from apostate Christendom, and planted in the wilderness.
Yes, it is dry compared to the riches of false religion. But what is her "rod"? Are we to be burning figuritive twigs to stay warm?
...Im trying to make a connection with Rev 12.
Those who stay behind will not be able to inquire of Jehovah (be heard by him), as Jesus said, "Lord, didn't we pray in your name?". "Get away from me, I DO NOT KNOW YOU"


e-magine,

Ezekiel 19:12-14
To the earth she was thrown, and there was an east wind that dried up her fruit. Her strong rod was torn off and became dry. Fire itself devoured it. 13 And now she is planted in the wilderness, in a waterless and thirsty land. 14 And fire proceeded to come forth from [her] rod. It devoured her very shoots, her very fruit, and there proved to be in her no strong rod, no scepter for ruling.

“‘That is a dirge, and it will become a dirge.’”


I think the fire that came from her "rod" is likely the same fire mentioned near the end of Ezekeil Chapter 20; the fire that will not be extinguished.

Something to do with Jesus Christs baptism?

It suggests to me that the woman (Christianity) destroys herself through the leadership. In my opinion the evil slave/man of lawlesness/son(s) of destruction.

The term "son of destruction" implies a Christian leadership who brings desolation (fire) to themselves.

"Her strong rod was torn off and became dry. Fire itself devoured it. "

Even while in the wilderness eventually the faithful slave are also attacked after the 3 1/2 times.

The evil slave is found beating the faithful when Jesus Christ returns.

Even though in my opinion the faithful are still in the wilderness.

The "rod" in my opinion are the elect, whether evil or faithful.


But hey, I gave my synopsis of Ezekeil Chapter 20 because I think the chapter itself is very relevant and deserves attention.

I hope what I posted above at least gets some people reading and thinking about that chapter.


In Christ

abe


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ablebodiedman
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Post: #21
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

Here is another scripture comparison from Ezekiel Chapter 20 which I think will be fulfilled by Jesus Christ:

Ezekiel 20:36-38
“‘Just as I put myself on judgment with YOUR forefathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I shall put myself on judgment with YOU,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. 37 ‘And I will make YOU pass under the rod and bring YOU into the bond of the covenant. 38 And I will clean out from YOU the revolters and the transgressors against me, for out of the land of their alien residence I shall bring them forth, but onto the soil of Israel they will not come; and YOU people will have to know that I am Jehovah.’


Malachi 3:2-4
“But who will be putting up with the day of his coming, and who will be the one standing when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen. 3 And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and must cleanse the sons of Le´vi; and he must clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness. 4 And the gift offering of Judah and of Jerusalem will actually be gratifying to Jehovah, as in the days of long ago and as in the years of antiquity.


Daniel 11:35
And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.


Daniel 12:10
Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.


1 Corinthians 3:13-15
each one’s work will become manifest, for the day will show it up, because it will be revealed by means of fire; and the fire itself will prove what sort of work each one’s is. 14 If anyone’s work that he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward; 15 if anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved; yet, if so, [it will be] as through fire.


Which brings us back to Ezekiel Chapter 20:


Ezekiel 20:47-48
The kindling flame will not be extinguished, and by it all faces must be scorched from [the] south to the north. 48 And all those of flesh must see that I myself, Jehovah, have set it afire, so that it will not be extinguished.


and Jesus Christs baptism:


Matthew 3:11-12
That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.



Yes, I think it is very important for a Christian to understand what happens to the end time "woman in the wilderness".


Good idea to read Ezekiel Chapter 20.



for out of the land of their alien residence I shall bring them forth, but onto the soil of Israel they will not come



Matthew 24:39-42
Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.



In Christ

abe


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ablebodiedman
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Post: #22
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

rus virgil Wrote:
Here I stop myself for letting you think and speak .
Anyway, it is better to compare the Revelation (13) with other prophecies of the "old" time for a better understanding and that, because it is written (as Jesus said) in John 16:

13. But when *he* is come, the Spirit of truth,
he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming.
Darby .

"into all the truth" means into "all God's word" or all Bible (from Mose's books to Revelation) .

and don't miss the "basis" of the prophecy interpretation , which is the "teaching of Christ"

in Christ,
rus virgil


rus,

I think John Chapter 16 is very relevant to this discussion.

The scripture you quoted suggests a time when Christians would be fed with truths:

John 16:13
However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming

But when would that happen?

The Book of Revelation suggests such a time:

Revelation 12:14
But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.

Away from the serpent, away from Satan's influence.

So where is Satan's influence?


2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing


Satan's influence is in the Church. The temple of The God is profaned.


So who is Jesus Christ addressing in John Chapter 16?

John 16:1-4
“I have spoken these things to YOU that YOU may not be stumbled. 2 Men will expel YOU from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills YOU will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God. 3 But they will do these things because they have not come to know either the Father or me. 4 Nevertheless, I have spoken these things to YOU that, when the hour for them arrives, YOU may remember I told them to YOU.


If the hour has arrived for Christians to exist outside of the Church then where are they?

In my opinion, they are in the wilderness.

The same kind of things that happened in the wilderness in the ancient Egyptian Exodus are likely to occur.

So I entirely agree with your statement:

rus virgil Wrote:
"into all the truth" means into "all God's word" or all Bible (from Mose's books to Revelation) .



See Ezekiel Chapter 20.


In Christ

abe


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rus virgil
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Post: #23
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

ablebodiedman Wrote:
...........................................................

So who is Jesus Christ addressing in John Chapter 16?

John 16:1-4
“I have spoken these things to YOU that YOU may not be stumbled. 2 Men will expel YOU from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills YOU will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God. 3 But they will do these things because they have not come to know either the Father or me. 4 Nevertheless, I have spoken these things to YOU that, when the hour for them arrives, YOU may remember I told them to YOU.


If the hour has arrived for Christians to exist outside of the Church then where are they?

In my opinion, they are in the wilderness.

The same kind of things that happened in the wilderness in the ancient Egyptian Exodus are likely to occur.

So I entirely agree with your statement:

rus virgil Wrote:
"into all the truth" means into "all God's word" or all Bible (from Mose's books to Revelation) .



See Ezekiel Chapter 20.


In Christ

abe


Dear Abe,
the TRUTH is even more profound !
you said:
"If the hour has arrived for Christians to exist outside of the Church then where are they?

In my opinion, they are in the wilderness."

Jesus said (in John 16:2) "Men will expel YOU from the synagogue."

not from the (true) Church , but from "the synagogue" (a local assembly, or a world-wide one)
a synagogue formed by members of Christ's (true) Church and other "men"
it seems the actions happens at a the time when the "men" have the control over the "synagogue"

see the same action in Rev 11
2. And the court which [is] without the temple cast out, and measure it not; because it has been given [up] to the nations, and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty-two months.

As I said in my previous post, let's go back / step before step , backward .
Going in fact, to the prophecies
not forgetting the Song of Moses

Are we today in the "wilderness" ? Yes, in case we are not already on the Holy Way , (because also this Holy Way is made by Jehovah exactly in the wilderness/ see Isaiah 35:1,8 ) - in case we are walking on the Holy Way, then we are surely on a better place !

fist backstep : if we are in wilderness after being expelled from synagogue, is it true that in the synagogue was a "paradise-like condition" for the true members of Jesus' Church ?
-- I think NOT, because there were "lording" some "men" of the "nations", which were not in accord with the truth spoken by the "faithful ones"
SO, the answer is, also back in "synagogue" the "wilderness" condition was present !


Then , (the second back step ) when has this "wilderness" condition begun ?

again to the word of Jehovah:
Isaiah 5
1. I will sing to my well-beloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard: My well-beloved had a vineyard upon a fruitful hill.
2. And he dug it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine; and he built a tower in the midst of it, and also hewed out a winepress therein;
and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, but it brought forth wild grapes.
3. And now, inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, between me and my vineyard.
4. What was there yet to do to my vineyard that I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? --

5. And now, let me tell you what I am about to do to my vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be eaten up;
I will break down its wall, and it shall be trodden under foot;

6. and I will make it a waste -- it shall not be pruned nor cultivated, but there shall come up briars and thorns; and I will command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

7. For the vineyard of Jehovah of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah the plant of his delight: and he looked for justice, and behold, blood-shedding; for righteousness, and behold, a cry.

Doesn't it liken with the Song of Moses, or Hosea 11 ?

It is the same action throughout the Old Testament prophecies !

Ezekiel 20 also fits here.
35. and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face.

this expression "wilderness of the peoples" shows that even when being in synagogue those expelled later, were in "wilderness"

The anger of Jehovah was stirred up because of the "fruits"- rotten fruits the "vineyard" has produced .

And all these had to happen during the "latter days"
days which are clearly separated by the first Jesus coming by a long (not specified by Jesus) period of time .

Well , as long the faithful ones were in synagogue, there was also a "wilderness" situation and period of time !

- (another back step)
When does the "wilderness" situation begun, (and before of that, )...
... when does the "master/owner" of the vineyard has "planted it with the choicest vine" (during the latter days) ??

these are question we should seek the answer ! (is not very easy to find the answers )


Now, to answer Biblically to the original question:
In the wilderness - so now what?

Now, Jehovah promises :
Isaiah 35
8. And a highway shall be there and a way, and it shall be called, The way of holiness:
the unclean shall not pass through it; but it shall be for these.
Those that go [this] way -- even fools, -- shall not err [therein].

Darby.

8. And a highway shall be there, and a way;
and it shall be called the Holy Way.
The unclean shall not pass over it, but it shall be for the redeemed;
the wayfaring men, yes, the simple ones and fools, shall not err in it and lose their way.

A.B.

By continuing the search starting from the inspired declarations found in Isaiah 35:8 we may find "what next" !

in Christ,
rus virgil

03-27-2011 07:49 PM
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rus virgil
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Post: #24
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

rus virgil Wrote:
..........................................
Now, Jehovah promises :
Isaiah 35
8. And a highway shall be there and a way, and it shall be called, The way of holiness:
the unclean shall not pass through it; but it shall be for these.
Those that go [this] way -- even fools, -- shall not err [therein].

Darby.

8. And a highway shall be there, and a way;
and it shall be called the Holy Way.
The unclean shall not pass over it, but it shall be for the redeemed;
the wayfaring men, yes, the simple ones and fools, shall not err in it and lose their way.

A.B.

By continuing the search starting from the inspired declarations found in Isaiah 35:8 we may find "what next" !

in Christ,
rus virgil


The Holy Way is the name Jehovah has given to the Way leading toward His Kingdom !
It is the Way of obeying Jesus Christ - that is, of having (true) Faith in Him and His teachings !

The changes those who are escaping from under the influence of Babylon (or the daughter of Babylon, that is the "synagogue" ) have to do, are not easy ones !
They (the changes) goes against our "fleshly desires".
They requires time !

the Apostle Paul resumed them

Romans 13
11. This also, knowing the time, that it is already time that *we* should be aroused out of sleep; for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.

12. The night is far spent, and the day is near;
-- let us cast away therefore the works of darkness, and
-- let us put on the armour of light.

Those "casting away the works of darkness" and "putting on the armor of light" are in fact walking on The Holy Way that leads to the Kingdom of God.

In the end , someones will be "in", and others "out"
as it is written

Revelation 22
10. And he says to me, Seal not the words of the prophecy of this book. The time is near.

11. Let him that does unrighteously do unrighteously still; and let the filthy make himself filthy still; and let him that is righteous practise righteousness still; and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still.

12. Behold, I come quickly, and my reward with me, to render to every one as his work shall be.

13. *I* [am] the Alpha and the Omega, [the] first and [the] last, the beginning and the end.

14. Blessed [are] they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city.

15. Without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loves and makes a lie.


in Christ,
rus virgil

03-27-2011 08:13 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #25
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

rus,

Thanks for your interesting responses.

Yes, there are many other scriptures which can be used to understand this wilderness situation.


Luke 13:23-24
Now a certain man said to him: “Lord, are those who are being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,



Jeremiah 3:14
“Return, O YOU renegade sons,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I myself have become the husbandly owner of YOU people; and I will take YOU, one out of a city and two out of a family, and I will bring YOU to Zion.



In Christ


abe


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rus virgil
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Post: #26
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

ablebodiedman Wrote:
rus,

Thanks for your interesting responses.
......................

Jeremiah 3:14
“Return, O YOU renegade sons,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I myself have become the husbandly owner of YOU people; and I will take YOU, one out of a city and two out of a family, and I will bring YOU to Zion.



In Christ


abe


Indeed, Jehovah is "gathering" his people one by one

Isaiah 27
12. And it shall come to pass in that day, that Jehovah shall beat out from the flood of the river unto the torrent of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, [ye] children of Israel.

13. And it shall come to pass in that day,
[that] the great trumpet shall be blown;
and they shall come that were perishing in the land of Assyria,
and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and
they shall worship Jehovah in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

in Christ,
rus virgil

03-28-2011 01:20 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #27
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

rus virgil Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:
rus,

Thanks for your interesting responses.
......................

Jeremiah 3:14
“Return, O YOU renegade sons,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I myself have become the husbandly owner of YOU people; and I will take YOU, one out of a city and two out of a family, and I will bring YOU to Zion.



In Christ


abe


Indeed, Jehovah is "gathering" his people one by one

Isaiah 27
12. And it shall come to pass in that day, that Jehovah shall beat out from the flood of the river unto the torrent of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, [ye] children of Israel.

13. And it shall come to pass in that day,
[that] the great trumpet shall be blown;
and they shall come that were perishing in the land of Assyria,
and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and
they shall worship Jehovah in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

in Christ,
rus virgil



rus,

Yes, that scripture also reminds me of the Egyptian Exodus where they end up going to God's mountain.

Isaiah 27:12 reminds me of Amos:

Amos 9:8-10
“‘Look! The eyes of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah are upon the sinful kingdom, and he will certainly annihilate it from upon the surface of the ground. Nevertheless, I shall not completely annihilate the house of Jacob,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. 9 ‘For, look! I am commanding, and I will jiggle the house of Israel among all the nations, just as one jiggles the sieve, so that not a pebble falls to the earth. 10 By the sword they will die—all the sinners of my people, those who are saying: “The calamity will not come near or reach as far as us.”’

are upon the sinful kingdom = Christianity



In Christ

abe


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03-28-2011 02:46 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #28
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

rus virgil Wrote:
Indeed, Jehovah is "gathering" his people one by one

Isaiah 27
12. And it shall come to pass in that day, that Jehovah shall beat out from the flood of the river unto the torrent of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, [ye] children of Israel.

13. And it shall come to pass in that day,
[that] the great trumpet shall be blown;
and they shall come that were perishing in the land of Assyria,
and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and
they shall worship Jehovah in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

in Christ,
rus virgil


rus,

I find it interesting that Isaiah 27 is immediately followed by a description of the "Covenant With Death" in Isaiah Chapter 28.

People who imagine the calamity will not come near to them.

The most profound covenant with death I can find that anyone has concluded is this one:

Millions Now Living Will Never Die


Isaiah 28:14-15
Therefore hear the word of Jehovah, YOU braggarts, YOU rulers of this people who are in Jerusalem: 15 Because YOU men have said: “We have concluded a covenant with Death; and with She´ol we have effected a vision; the overflowing flash flood, in case it should pass through, will not come to us, for we have made a lie our refuge and in falsehood we have concealed ourselves”;



In Christ


abe


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03-28-2011 03:00 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #29
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Which brings us back to Ezekiel Chapter 20:


Ezekiel 20:47-48
The kindling flame will not be extinguished, and by it all faces must be scorched from [the] south to the north. 48 And all those of flesh must see that I myself, Jehovah, have set it afire, so that it will not be extinguished.


and Jesus Christs baptism:


Matthew 3:11-12
That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.



Yes, I think it is very important for a Christian to understand what happens to the end time "woman in the wilderness".


Good idea to read Ezekiel Chapter 20.



After spending time contemplating the discussions in this thread I felt compelled to write a letter to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Seeing the profound connection of a "fire that cannot be put out" mentioned in regard to Jesus Christs baptism and the "flame which will not be extinguished" in Ezekiel Chapter 20.

The question asked at the start of Ezekiel Chapter 20 took on personal meaning to me in regard to the Jehovah's Witness baptism.


Ezekiel 20:4
Will you judge them? Will you judge [them], O son of man?



I spent many sleepless nights considering this question and any obligation that I (or anyone else) might have in regard to it.

So I wrote the letter and sent it.

Also felt compelled to share the contents of the letter with everyone else.

Slept much better last night when I finished the video:

Here it is:







In Christ

abe


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belongingtojah
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Post: #30
RE: In the wilderness - so now what?

ablebodiedman Wrote:
I have tried to get some discussion going for people who seem convinced they are now in that wilderness condition described in the Book of Revelation.

Without much success. :(

In my opinion it represents such a dilemma that there ought to be some scriptures outside of the Book of Revelation which gives more detail.

After all, revelation implies a revealing of previous things which were hidden.

In my opinion many of those things are hidden in plain sight, also within the scriptures.

My motive is simply to provide an opportunity for these things to be researched by like minded people who also want to find the answers.

No, I do not know all the answers.

I do know however, that this forum is one of the very few places where people actually recognise they are in that wilderness condition.

The benefits of such a discussion should be mutual.

One of the problems from being in this wilderness condition is that I see no one asking the immediately obvious question; "what now"?

I do understand why some Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses conclude that they are in the wilderness. Simply due to the betrayal of what they at one time thought was Christianity.

That is also my conclusion.

A Jehovah's Witness in good standing would immediately respond to us with; "where else shall we go"?

A good question!

Every other Church would tell us; "come here we have the truth".

If we do recognise that we are in this wilderness condition however, then the Book of Revelation indicates that it is the right place to be.

I am comfortable recognising this.

If you are also comfortable recognizing this, then, have you asked the question; "what now"?

This is what I would like to explore in this thread.


In Christ


abe


This reminds me of a couple of scriptures.

Heb 13:13,14 - we need to go forth to Jesus outside the camp

bear reproach - we really are waiting for our lord to return so he can give us relief.

Micah 7: 7-10 - we put our trust in Jehovah and his Son and wait for them to conduct our legal case (because we are all sinners) - then those who persecute us because we believe God's Word is the final say - they will be put to shame - those who claim that we have become alienated from Jehovah because they say so.

Jehovah is cognizant of those seeking refuge in him. Nahum 1:7


Isaih 44
5 This one will say: “I belong to Jehovah.” And that one will call [himself] by the name of Jacob, and another will write upon his hand: “Belonging to Jehovah.” And by the name of Israel one will betitle [himsel
04-09-2011 03:25 PM
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