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Some Prophetic Speculations
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Bangalore
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Some Prophetic Speculations

Some Prophetic Speculations.

By Alan Feuerbacherhttp://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/some-...tions.html

1831: William Miller begins preaching Christ's return in the fall of 1843.

1842: Miller and followers begin publishing a journal, The Midnight Cry.

1843, late: Miller and followers disappointed; fix Christ's return in the spring of 1844.

1844, spring: Miller and followers disappointed; fix Christ's return on October 22, 1844.

1844, late: Miller and followers anticipate disappointment.

1844, October 21: Miller says: "I told some of my brethren Christ would not come on the morrow" because the Second Coming would be "in an hour they think not". He was not responsible for the deception: "No one can honestly say that he has been deceived by me. My advice has always been for each to study the evidence of his faith for himself." God may have designed the delay so that people would turn to the Bible to study further and be reconciled to God. After all, to have erred in the precise date did not reduce the urgency of the times. Every passing day was one day nearer the end.

1844, November 10: Miller safely revises the date and overcomes all possibility of disappointment: "I have fixed my mind upon another time, and here I mean to stand until God gives me more light. -- And that is Today, TODAY, and TODAY, until He comes."

1845: Miller admits his mistake: "That I have been mistaken in the time, I freely confess; and I have no desire to defend my course any further than I have been actuated by pure motives, and it has resulted in God's glory. My mistakes and errors God, I trust, will forgive."

1845: George Storrs, one of Miller's leading followers, declares that God had not been in the "definite time" movement, that they had been "mesmereized" by mere human influence, and that "the Bible did not teach definite time at all."

1840s, late: Seventh Day Adventists, Second Adventists, and many other groups form from splinters of Miller's movement, carrying on with new prophetic speculations. Some decide that Miller had been right after all, that Miller had "expected the wrong thing at the right time".

1860: Nelson H. Barbour discovers that certain chronological calculations show 6,000 years of human history ending in 1873; he begins preaching that the Second Coming of the Lord would be in 1873.

1869: Barbour publishes 1st edition of the pamphlet Evidences for the Coming of the Lord in 1873; or the Midnight Cry.

1871: Barbour publishes 2nd edition of Evidences.

1873: Barbour begins publishing a monthly journal, The Midnight Cry, and Herald of the Morning.

1873, late: Barbour revises his prediction to autumn, 1874; ceases publication of The Midnight Cry, and Herald of the Morning.

1875: Barbour and followers decide that Christ had returned invisibly in 1874, that they had merely "expected the wrong thing at the right time"; in June Barbour restarts his journal as Herald of the Morning and lays the foundation for further predictions; in the September issue he makes a prediction that "the Gentile times" would end in 1914; in later issues he expands on this theme.

1870s: Charles Taze Russell forms Bible study classes, adopts many teachings from former Millerites including George Storrs, and various prophetic speculators

1876, January: Russell reads Barbour's magazine, invites him to teach him all about Bible chronology.

1876, early: Russell convinces Barbour to cease publication of Herald of the Morning so that they can work on a book that would be a compilation of articles that would otherwise have been published in Barbour's magazine.

1876, late: in the October issue of George Storrs' periodical The Bible Examiner Russell restates Barbour's prediction that "the Gentile times" will end in 1914.

1877: Russell and Barbour publish the book Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World, predict that "the saints" would be resurrected in 1878 and teach that "the parable of the Ten Virgins" began to be fulfilled in 1844 by Miller's followers; Russell publishes his booklet Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return.

1878: Russell and Barbour restart publication of Herald of the Morning; "the saints" do not appear and so Russell spiritualizes their "resurrection", saying that it had indeed occurred but invisibly, and that he had been expecting "the wrong thing at the right time", just as Christ had invisibly returned in 1874; Russell and Barbour disagree on whether "the saints" had been resurrected, and this creates the first major disagreement between them.

1879: Russell and Barbour split company; in July Russell begins publishing his own journal, Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence; Russell continues to proclaim that Christ had returned in 1874 and that "the Gentile Times" would end in 1914; Russell reaffirms his teaching that Miller's movement in 1844 began the "modern day" fulfillment of end-times prophecies.

1880, late and early 1881: Russell predicts another earthly "resurrection of the saints" in October, 1881.

1881, late: Russell spiritualizes the October "resurrection", saying that it closed a period of "the high calling".

1880s: Russell refines beliefs, including exactly what would happen in 1914.

1889: Russell publishes volume 2 of The Millennial Dawn, The Time Is At Hand; predicts that by 1914 "the Kingdom of God" will have obtained full control in heaven and on earth, that Christ would be reigning visibly, that "the saints" would all be resurrected, that the city of Jerusalem would be highly honored again, that "the Battle of Armageddon" (which had begun in 1878) would have culminated in worldwide anarchy and given way to "new heavens and new earth" with peaceful blessings, and that "God's Kingdom" would be "in the earth and then smite and crush the Gentile image" and would "fully consume the power of these kings".

1904: Russell decides that 1914 was not necessarily the proper date for "the Gentile times" to end after all, that perhaps it would be 1915 and that other things he had predicted might turn out rather differently.

1914, early: Russell waffles about the certainty of his dating scheme, wonders if he had been "expecting the wrong thing at the right time".

1914, late: Russell and followers decide that the outbreak of "the Great War" is a fulfillment of Russell's predictions and that the war would culminate in the Battle of Armageddon.

1916: Russell writes that some of his predictions had indeed not been fulfilled, but much like William Miller did, that they "certainly did have a very stimulating and sanctifying effect upon thousands, all of whom accordingly can praise the Lord -- even for the mistake. Many, indeed, can express themselves as being thankful to the Lord that the culmination of the Church's hopes was not reached at the time we expected; and that we, as the Lord's people, have further opportunities of perfecting holiness and of being participators with our Master in the further presentation of His Message to His people."

1917: The book The Finished Mystery predicts that the War would soon end in the Battle of Armageddon.

1918: The Watchtower Society begins delivering public lectures titled "Millions Now Living May Never Die" which were quickly changed to "Millions Now Living Will Never Die".

1920: In the booklet "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" the WTS begins predicting that 1925 would see the resurrection of the faithful prophets of old and the beginning of the Battle of Armageddon.

1925: Armageddon does not come.

1920s, late: The Bible Students lose 3/4 of their membership; those who remain begin to forget about 1925.

1940: The Watchtower informs the public that Armageddon is only months away.

1942: After J. F. Rutherford's death Nathan Knorr announces that the end of the War would not see the Battle of Armageddon after all, but that it would soon follow.

1950s: The Society tells its followers to expect Armageddon very soon.

1961: In the book Let Your Name Be Sanctified Fred Franz tells JWs that in 1942, when upon his deathbed Rutherford appointed Franz and Knorr to head up the Society, the "Elijah" work was finished and the "Elishah" began. This work, he wrote, began in the 1870s with Russell. Putting this together with Russell's teachings on "the Ten Virgins", it would seem that William Miller really began this modern-day Elijah work and is the spiritual father of Jehovah's Witnesses. Of course, Miller has many other "daughters".

1966: In the book Life Everlasting in the Freedom of the Sons of God Fred Franz tells JWs that 6,000 years of human history would be finished in 1975 and that it was a good bet that Armageddon would come by then.

1967: The Society instructs District Overseers to deliver speeches at circuit assemblies announcing that Armageddon would definitely have arrived by 1975.

1968: The Society institutes a six-month Bible Study campaign in anticipation of the great influx of new converts in the few years before Armageddon.

1960s, late, through early 1970s: JWs inform the world that it is extremely likely that Armageddon will come by 1975.

1975: The Society informs its followers that Armageddon did not arrive.

1976: Fred Franz blames the JW community: "it didn't come because YOU were expecting it". The Watchtower blames the JW community for being disappointed by listening to it.

1970s, late: Many JWs abandon ship.

1980: The Society admits to having had some share in the disappointment.

1980s: The JW community and WTS leaders forget about 1975; some expect Armageddon in 1984 or 1994 based on the time for 70 or 80 years for a generation from 1914 to expire; a small number of WTS publications hint or state outright that "it will all be over" by the year 2000.

1990s: Many JWs quietly expect "the end" by 2000; the WTS keeps up their expectations with general statements of "real soon now".

1995: The WTS changes its teaching on "the generation" but keeps up with the "Real Soon Now" theme.

The above brief chronology documents some 170 years of "crying wolf" by prophetic speculators. Not a single prediction has ever come true. Contrast this with what happened when God spoke through Moses -- "it all came true." (Joshua 21:45)

Even if some of the predictions of today's prophetic speculators should come true, it would be purely by accident, just as when the wolf came after the boy had "cried wolf" every day for years. It would be no credit to the boy.

In fact, because Jesus said that "at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming", anyone who correctly "predicts" the time of his coming cannot be his follower. Conversely, no one who is Jesus' true follower would presume to make such predictions.

William Miller ultimately learned the proper attitude the hard way: "I have fixed my mind upon another time, and here I mean to stand until God gives me more light. -- And that is Today, TODAY, and TODAY, until He comes."


Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


"While producing people who were outwardly moral, they subverted the essential qualities of humility, compassion and mercy." - Raymond Franz
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04-02-2011 07:45 AM
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Susanna
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RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

Nothing predicted could come true until the apoatacy was uncoverd first
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (New King James Version)

2 Thessalonians 2
The Great Apostasy
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Amos 3:7 also brings out that Jah does not do a thing with out revealing it to His servents first /

So the apostacy or error that Jah alloud to enter His Temple that Christ did arrieve in 1914 and took His bride to be with him is the "Lie " that Jah has permitted for the end times to seperate those that loved the truth from those who would beleive the lie.

Those earlier men with their predictions where unaware of the apostacy that had to come before Christ would come, just could not get it right it wasnt the right time. Pastor
Russell brought that error into the Temple but the timing was wrong..
well any way these are my thoughts, which is not predicting.
Susanna :grouphug:


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04-02-2011 10:41 AM
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RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

Why would Jesus need to "return invisibly"? He has been given all authority, since 33AD!

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matt 28:18-20 NKJV)

Jesus was ALWAYS with his disciples... he didn't NEED to "return invisibly"!


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04-02-2011 11:00 AM
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Susanna
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RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

Interpretum Wrote:
Why would Jesus need to "return invisibly"? He has been given all authority, since 33AD!

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matt 28:18-20 NKJV)

Jesus was ALWAYS with his disciples... he didn't NEED to "return invisibly"!


Dear Interp, you know you and I both go in circles, you have a hard time leaving the first century but for the sake of others I will do my best to explain to you what I mean.

Stop and reread what you are saying Inter. Of course he is with them always. Have any of his disciples here on earth seen him ,
no but they are assured he's with them.
When he returns for them , the remaining ones will have already died ,but the same as Jesus they were raised on the third day already being recreated the same as Jesus, but they had put on their flesh and clothes so that the whole world would know that they had been raised.
and as the same as Jesus we may also see them being taken up and before our eyes
disappearing the same as Jesus did, because Flesh and blood cannot enter into the spirit realm
so yes , Jesus is always with them no matter where they are
. Always invisible.

I think your problem may lay with a belief that all that will rule with Christ have already joined him or are already counted.
correct me if I'm wrong.

susanna :grouphug:


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04-02-2011 05:04 PM
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RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

Hi Susanna

My point was simply that Jesus didn't need to "return invisibly" in 1914 or any other date. He was with them since 33AD.

Both Jesus and the apostle Paul taught that some of them would NEVER die.

Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:24-26)

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." (1 Thess 4:15)

Now, I'm aware that when you read these words, you believe Paul is speaking to YOU... or if not you personally, to people in OUR DAY.

I'm not saying he isn't, BUT... you must remember that first of all Paul was speaking to HIS IMMEDIATE AUDIENCE... the Thessalonian congregation. He was saying that some of the Thessalonian congregation would still be alive at the coming of the Lord!

If Paul was really talking to us only, then he was LYING to the Thessalonians... or at best, MISLEADING them into a false hope!

It would be like me writing to you and saying, "Dear Susanna... good news, we will never die!"... but really, the letter is meant for your great, great, great, great grandchildren... and NOT for you! Wouldn't I be misleading YOU?

Paul was writing to the THESSALONIANS:

"PAUL, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess 1:1)

So you really cannot get around the simple fact that if Paul was NOT really speaking to the Thessalonians, but to US... then he was MISLEADING the Thessalonians into believing some of them would never die.

Personally, I believe Jesus and Paul. Some of those hearing Jesus' words to Martha NEVER DIED... and some of that Thessalonian congregation NEVER DIED... but were transformed, in the twinkling of an eye.

Now, I really appreciate your difficulty in believing this. I do fully understand the way you understand scriptures. Bear in mind, I have held the JW viewpoint, and also the Futurist viewpoint (courtesy of Robert King, e-watchman) for a while...

...so I know where you're coming from, and I understand why you believe what you do.

(By the way, "Futurism" is just a label, usually meaning you believe things like Mathew 24 and most of Revelation apply to the FUTURE. I know labels don't always PERFECTLY convey a person's beliefs.)

But I also believe that your interpretation of prophecy is incorrect.

I don't think it matters all that much, because ultimately it's our faith in Jesus Christ as Lord that matters.

However, I should point out to you that I'm not suggesting EVERYTHING happened in 70AD, and that's it... now there's nothing left to look forward to :D

On the contrary, there's lots of fascinating stuff still to come... but NOT what most Christians expect, because they are misinterpreting many prophecies.

For example, how many Christians do you know who can fully integrate Zechariah 14 into their prophetic scheme of the future?

How exactly is Jehovah going to place His feet on the Mount of Olives? Why are the nations going to be required to come up to Jerusalem to celebrate the Festival of Booths, a distinctly Jewish festival?

Let's face it, few Christians actually EXPECT us to be celebrating the Festival of Booths one day.

And yet.... there it is, in prophecy!

Another example is how Christians blatantly twist the original meaning of Daniel's final week, in Daniel 9. The King James Version, and it seems most other translations, blatantly twist that passage to imply the "king" will make a treaty for 7 years, and break it after 3 1/2 years.

The original Hebrew says NOTHING OF THE SORT!

And yet millions of Christians believe this twisted version, because it suits them.

Take a look at the original Hebrew, at scripture4all.org.

Of course, the reason they HAVE to, is because the meaning of prophecies like Mathew 24 and Revelation HINGE upon Daniel 9's 70th week being in the future. Yet the original Hebrew implies the final 70th week happened between 66 and 73AD.

Hopefully, then, you can see why I have a problem with many people's interpretation of prophecy.

If the foundation is faulty, the whole building becomes shaky and is close to collapsing.


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Susanna
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RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

Dear Interp,
lets just take a few sentences of what you wrote , knowing as you once wrote that you and I will just keep going on in circles.

one of youre quote
"PAUL, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess 1:1)

So you really cannot get around the simple fact that if Paul was NOT really speaking to the Thessalonians, but to US... then he was MISLEADING the Thessalonians into believing some of them would never die.

Personally, I believe Jesus and Paul. Some of those hearing Jesus' words to Martha NEVER DIED... and some of that Thessalonians congregation NEVER DIED... but were transformed, in the twinkling of an eye.

>>>>>>>>>>> My answer
To the church of the Thessalonians
Paul was speaking to those that had the higher calling, those that were going to rule with Christ or the Bride of Christ. This letter was passed on and circulated among the same Church of believers that existed at that time. Surely all those 27 letters were read in each existing congregation.

Paul is credited to witting 14 of those books of letters.
Paul also made sure he didn't stay in one place ,he made three journeys so the bride of Christ all heard the same thing..Jehovah seen that all was penned so his future sons in our day would be given the same information.

Paul certainly was not misleading them, when he spoke to them telling them some would not die ,but would be transformed in the twinkling of a eye, he was speaking about the rest of the brothers that would make up that same church ,in our day.

Those two witnesses that will pick up and continue the announcing of the Messianic Kingdom, will take place during the last three /half years of this satanic world system of things.
They are the remaining bride & companions that will play a big part in the conclusion of this system of things.
You agree that Jesus did say he would be with them ( his Bride ) until the conclusion of this system of things.
If Jesus were just speaking about the Jewish System when He said that, Then the remaining bride that would still be living in our day is without Jesus.

Now you cannot say my thoughts are a hang over from the WT, because scripture prove the WT wrong.
They teach the Messianic Kingdom was already set up,and the Bride is slowly joining Jesus as they die, ( Jesus is, as you say still sitting beside his Father since 33 AD ..........
The Messianic Kingdom has not been set up yet, so just where did the Bride that had already been put to death , go in 1918 , and then the WT is placing in heaven , the governing members as each one dies. Give me a break !

The scriptures place the sons of God , that died for Christ . as still being asleep, waiting until the rests of their brothers join them in death that make up the Royal Priesthood.
Revelation 6:9-11 (New King James Version)

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
So these are the ones Paul was speaking to " The bride", all the way down to the end. The death of these two witnesses is what starts the first resurrection, and after they are all gather together and united with their groom, they return for Armageddon

This can all be found in scripture..

Susanna:grouphug:


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04-03-2011 02:46 PM
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RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

Hi Susanna

Thanks for your reply.

However, I will return to my analogy about a faulty foundation. If the foundation of a building is not solid, the whole building is in danger of collapsing.

Your interpretation is based on this point...

Quote:
Paul was speaking to those that had the higher calling, those that were going to rule with Christ or the Bride of Christ.


OK, let's stop right there :)

This is where we differ. Scripture teaches that ALL Christians who "overcome", get to sit with Jesus on his throne.

"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Rev 3:21 NKJV)

Jesus did not make this promise to a limited CLASS of his followers... he promised it to ALL of his faithful followers.

You still cling to the notion that God is choosing a select set of 144,000 out of the general body of Christians (similar to what the WTS teach).

I'm sorry, but I strongly believe this is FALSE.

Jesus has TWO flocks... but they simply JEWISH, and GENTILE.

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." (John 10:16 NJKV)

These two flocks are also in Revelation, but again, they are nothing more than JEWISH and GENTILE...

"And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:" (Rev 7:4)

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues..." (Rev 7:9)

I do not buy into this "spiritual Israel" business here. This passage paints a clear picture... the two groups comprise JEWISH and GENTILE Christians.

They were distinct, in that the Jewish Christians observed the Law (as testified in Acts 21:20-25) while Gentile Christians were NOT under the Law... yet what united these two flocks was their faith in Christ.

Everything else is theological juggling :)

So you can see why I reject the idea that Paul was talking to "our day". No, he was talking to the Thessalonians, who were part of the bride of Christ.

Some of THEM would be alive by the Lord's day... and some of them no doubt were.

(This is why I cannot address the rest of your post. It's built on the same faulty foundation.)

ALL faithful Christians (at least those who Jesus considers faithful) are meant to overcome... and ALL of them get to sit on Jesus' throne.

I would venture to say that saying the New Testament was written to an exclusive, limited class is one of the biggest errors of the WTS and has done more damage to people developing a relationship with Jesus than ANY other doctrine.

I would urge you to re-evaluate this doctrine completely.


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04-03-2011 06:50 PM
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RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

Dear interp you quoted
"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Rev 3:21 NKJV)

Jesus did not make this promise to a limited CLASS of his followers... he promised it to ALL of his faithful followers.

You still cling to the notion that God is choosing a select set of 144,000 out of the general body of Christians (similar to what the WTS teach).
>>>>>>>>>>
My answer

Sorry but when I left the WT ,I didn't throw the baby out with the bath water,

Must remember the wheat and weeds were ' are still growing together.
Jehovah did see that a sound foundation was given by Him thru the scriptures.

The WT teachings are built on 1914.
The Kingdom was not set up then, the bride is still asleep and yes the scriptures do say 144,000/ will rule with Christ.
Rule over whom,? Who would be their subjects ?The Great crowd of course that come out of the Great Trib.

Right before the gathering up of his ( Jesus ( bride ) he separates the sheep from the goats in preparation for Armageddon,

Now this is a spiritual scene
.Matthew 25:31-46 (New King James Version)

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[a] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
This takes place after the remaining bride has been killed

Take notice as you read these scriptures the remaining ambassadors of Christ Kingdom is used in the past tence.Also another picture is given.
Jesus sits on HIS THRONE
So those who listened to the remaining bride of Christ message of the Messianic Kingdom being set up ,
will be the great crowd that will inherit the earth, those that didn't accept these remaining ones that have been preaching with holy spirit for 3.5 years will be judged as wicked.
>>>>>>>>>
Just what is the ransom sacrifice ?
Did Jesus die so everyone could go to heaven ? Was that his Fathers original purpose for man.? Or did he really die as the scriptures say to buy back what Adam lost ? Why did Jah even create the earth if it wasn't to enjoy humans as His family ?
If it weren't for Adam losing the grand opportunity to live on earth forever, there would not had been a needed perfect ransom, or a Kingdom with a king priest and a royal priesthood to shepherd over us until we reached the stage where Adam was when created/

Psalm 37:10-11 (New King James Version)

10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.


>>>>>>>>>

This separation takes place during the last part of the 3.5 years that this last worldly beast has ruling power. Then Jeus gathers up his bride and returns with them for Armageddon.

Nope, none of this came from the WT its all scripture, and if you don't believe it then just start digging,
>>>>>>>
Intern you quoted
Jesus has TWO flocks... but they simply JEWISH, and GENTILE.

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." (John 10:16 NJKV)

Intern if you read the quoted scripture you posted , Jesus said those two would make up one flock, under one shehperd.

Susanna :grouphug:


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04-03-2011 09:33 PM
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RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

Hi Susanna

Susanna Wrote:
Sorry but when I left the WT ,I didn't throw the baby out with the bath water,

Must remember the wheat and weeds were ' are still growing together.
Jehovah did see that a sound foundation was given by Him thru the scriptures.


OK, perhaps I should be more specific. Amongst those whom Jesus classes as the WHEAT... I don't believe there are different classes of Christian (with the exception of Jews and Christians, who are two different folds of Christians united into one flock).

Quote:
The WT teachings are built on 1914.
The Kingdom was not set up then, the bride is still asleep and yes the scriptures do say 144,000/ will rule with Christ.


Nowhere does scripture says the 144,000 will rule with Christ, except in the sense that ALL of Christ's true followers rule with Christ.

Quote:
Rule over whom,? Who would be their subjects ?The Great crowd of course that come out of the Great Trib.


Nowhere in scripture does it say that the 144,000 rule over the great crowd.

In fact, scripture seems to indicate that the "great crowd" actually rule with Christ:

"Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth." (Rev 5:9,10)

Regardless of whether it's reigning OVER or ON the earth... the fact is that this fits the description of the "great crowd":

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb..." (Rev 7:9)

So I'm suggesting to you that both the 144,000 AND the "great crowd" rule with Christ - both were bought with Christ's blood.

Quote:
Take notice as you read these scriptures the remaining ambassadors of Christ Kingdom is used in the past tence.Also another picture is given.
Jesus sits on HIS THRONE
So those who listened to the remaining bride of Christ message of the Messianic Kingdom being set up ,
will be the great crowd that will inherit the earth, those that didn't accept these remaining ones that have been preaching with holy spirit for 3.5 years will be judged as wicked.


Well, I don't agree with this complex theological cocktail.

Jesus' brothers are simply true Christians, not a special class of people... as proven by this scripture:

"And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Matt 12:49,50)

Dear sister, do you see how simple that is? It requires no complex theology to explain. Whoever does God's will is Jesus' brother. It's that simple.

Therefore Jesus judges the nations on how they have treated his brothers, true Christians. ALL true Christians represent the "bride of Christ".

(I emphasize the word "true" Christians not in the sense used by certain exclusive sects... but simply because there are probably many false Christians out there, but I am not qualified to judge who is and who isn't a "Christian" in Jesus' eyes.)

Quote:
Just what is the ransom sacrifice ?
Did Jesus die so everyone could go to heaven ? Was that his Fathers original purpose for man.? Or did he really die as the scriptures say to buy back what Adam lost ? Why did Jah even create the earth if it wasn't to enjoy humans as His family ?
If it weren't for Adam losing the grand opportunity to live on earth forever, there would not had been a needed perfect ransom, or a Kingdom with a king priest and a royal priesthood to shepherd over us until we reached the stage where Adam was when created/


Yes... I agree with this. Nowhere did I state everyone was going to heaven. I think you might be confusing MY beliefs with many Church member's beliefs.

I'm simply saying the bride of Christ is ALL true Christians, not simply a tiny subset (i.e. 144,000).

Keep in mind there are only TWO passages in Revelation that talk about the 144,000... both implying they are Jewish. (1) We're told in Rev 7 they are from every tribe of Israel... and (2) in Rev 14 we're told they're FIRSTFRUITS to God and to the Lamb... and the very earliest Christians were Jews.

I fully appreciate how people "spiritualize" these passages... but I believe that is a mistake. These passages are TELLING us who they are... Jewish Christians, representing the remnant who escaped the destruction of their nation.

I appreciate you can't accept this, because you believe the 3.5 year period is still future, even though the SOURCE of this prophecy (Daniel 9 in Hebrew) clearly implies it was fulfilled in the 7 years between 66 and 73AD.

Evangelical Christians teach a very twisted version of Daniel 9 that is NOT supported in the Hebrew.

Quote:
Intern if you read the quoted scripture you posted , Jesus said those two would make up one flock, under one shehperd.


Yes, you're right... I should have said two FOLDS. The two folds were Jewish followers of Jesus, and Gentile followers of Jesus... they were united under Christ.

This is the SAME picture painted in Revelation 7.

The 144,000 represent the remnant of Jewish Christians who would survive their nation's destruction.

The "great crowd" represent the masses of Gentile Christians who were believers.

Two "folds"... two great congregations... two lampstands... two witnesses... testifying to Christ.


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-05-2011 04:24 PM
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Bangalore
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Post: #10
RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

William Miller's Chronology Chart.

http://www.earlysda.com/miller/miller-ev...-chart.jpg

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


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04-06-2011 10:10 AM
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Interpretum
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Post: #11
RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

Thanks for sharing that, Bangalore. It's interesting that he had the same idea about 607BC as the Watchtower Society, even though there is little evidence this is the correct date.


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04-06-2011 10:51 AM
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Susanna
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Post: #12
RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

Dear Interp
You say
The 144,000 represent the remnant of Jewish Christians who would survive their nation's destruction.

The "great crowd" represent the masses of Gentile Christians who were believers.

>>>>>>>>>>>
I Am really trying to understand your way of thinking.

correct me if I have this wrong.
Are all of these Jewish Christian living in Israel now ?or are you talking about 70 CE.
Past or future ?
Remember the gentiles were added on to that Fig tree which pictured the Nation, so it picks up a spiritual picture for our day. Romans the 11 th chapter. The fig tree pictured their nation.

The Christian Jews living in Israel will be part of the bride or ambassadors of Christ and will do the same in Israel that the Gentile brothers will be preaching in other nations " , that Christ Kingdom was set up in the heavens. "
With what's going on over in the Arab world over there , who knows when Israel will be attacked. But for a certainty she will go down at Armageddon.

If its before the remaining Brides mission of 3.5 years is completed or not, remains to be seen
, but the remnants mission will not be interrupted until they finish their mission, regardless what takes place in the mid east.

I personally believe ,the seven Peace Treaty is yet to come.
The stage is set, The UN have already given a peace title to the main player.

His white horse is out to conquer , he has a bow which is a weapon.
Naturally there has to be wars , looking like there will be a third world war. Looking like there's no way out,everything looks dark,
Cant very well have a peace treaty if there are no wars .
This is another reason he's going to run again, because he's sure he can bring peace. ( this of course has yet to be proven )

Matt 24:21-25
21 (A)For the trouble at that time will be far more terrible than any there has ever been, from the beginning of the world to this very day. Nor will there ever be anything like it again.22 But God has already reduced the number of days; had he not done so,nobody would survive. For the sake of his chosen people, however, God will reduce the days.

23 Then, if anyone says to you,
Look, here is the Messiah! or
There he is!' do not believe it.24 For false Messiahs and false prophets will appear; they will perform great miracles and wonders in order to deceive even God's chosen people, if possible.25 Listen! I have told you this ahead of time.


Cross references:
Matthew 24:21 : Matt 24:21; Dan 12:1; ; Rev 7:14; .
>>>>>>>>>>
Jah will permit this to go just so far, but will cut it short or no flesh would be saved, but because of the chosen ones those days will be cut short,
Hence the seven year peace treaty.
Following that treaty we will also have the fulfillment of the prophecy written by Paul to the remnant of the bride living today .
1 Thessalonians 5:1-7 (New King James Version)

1 Thessalonians 5
The Day of the Lord
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
>>>>>>>>>>
Following that announcement ,some time during that first half of those seven years , the 3.5 years that belong to the remaining remnant will start their mission, before the treaty is broken in the middle of the week,
Suddenly is what to Jehovah ? To carry out all that will take place during that treaty.
That when The Dragons 3.5 years has its ruling power,

The tribulation then will be heavy on the Christians that refuse to be part of the Dragons government or Babylon the great ,Because they take sides with Christ remaining brothers here on earth that are preaching with Holy spirit.
Revelation 13:5-12 (New King James Version)
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[a] for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[B] tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

>>>>>>>>>>
the saints here,are also the brothers in Christ, the adopted sons of God, the remnant of the bride or the two witnesses. These are the chosen ones that Satan is trying to tramp out .This is his Kingdom on earth this NWO, no room for Christ or any of his followers. That's why Jesus prayed for them and for those who would listen to them in our time, because we would certainly be no part of that world. John 17 th chapter.

Even now we are in the world but should keep separate from our surroundings with out compromising our faith, so we should be well trained when the take over is complete.

Now these are just the way I see things and I am sure there are many different
thoughts from every one, but yes Intern, I can see why we cant agree, but at least we can agree to disagree

love susanna ,

Dear Interp
You say
The 144,000 represent the remnant of Jewish Christians who would survive their nation's destruction.

The "great crowd" represent the masses of Gentile Christians who were believers.

>>>>>>>>>>>
I Am really trying to understand your way of thinking.

correct me if I have this wrong.
Are all of these Jewish Christian living in Israel now ?or are you talking about 70 CE.
Past or future ?
Remember the gentiles were added on to that Fig tree which pictured the Nation, so it picks up a spiritual picture for our day. Romans the 11 th chapter. The fig tree pictured their nation.

The Christian Jews living in Israel will be part of the bride or ambassadors of Christ and will do the same in Israel that the Gentile brothers will be preaching in other nations " , that Christ Kingdom was set up in the heavens. "
With what's going on over in the Arab world over there , who knows when Israel will be attacked. But for a certainty she will go down at Armageddon.

If its before the remaining Brides mission of 3.5 years is completed or not, remains to be seen
, but the remnants mission will not be interrupted until they finish their mission, regardless what takes place in the mid east.

I personally believe ,the seven Peace Treaty is yet to come.
The stage is set, The UN have already given a peace title to the main player.

His white horse is out to conquer , he has a bow which is a weapon.
Naturally there has to be wars , looking like there will be a third world war. Looking like there's no way out,everything looks dark,
Cant very well have a peace treaty if there are no wars .
This is another reason he's going to run again, because he's sure he can bring peace. ( this of course has yet to be proven )

Matt 24:21-25
21 (A)For the trouble at that time will be far more terrible than any there has ever been, from the beginning of the world to this very day. Nor will there ever be anything like it again.22 But God has already reduced the number of days; had he not done so,nobody would survive. For the sake of his chosen people, however, God will reduce the days.

23 Then, if anyone says to you,
Look, here is the Messiah! or
There he is!' do not believe it.24 For false Messiahs and false prophets will appear; they will perform great miracles and wonders in order to deceive even God's chosen people, if possible.25 Listen! I have told you this ahead of time.


Cross references:
Matthew 24:21 : Matt 24:21; Dan 12:1; ; Rev 7:14; .
>>>>>>>>>>
Jah will permit this to go just so far, but will cut it short or no flesh would be saved, but because of the chosen ones those days will be cut short,
Hence the seven year peace treaty.
Following that treaty we will also have the fulfillment of the prophecy written by Paul to the remnant of the bride living today .
1 Thessalonians 5:1-7 (New King James Version)

1 Thessalonians 5
The Day of the Lord
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
>>>>>>>>>>
Following that announcement ,some time during that first half of those seven years , the 3.5 years that belong to the remaining remnant will start their mission, before the treaty is broken in the middle of the week,
Suddenly is what to Jehovah ? To carry out all that will take place during that treaty.
That when The Dragons 3.5 years has its ruling power,

The tribulation then will be heavy on the Christians that refuse to be part of the Dragons government or Babylon the great ,Because they take sides with Christ remaining brothers here on earth that are preaching with Holy spirit.
Revelation 13:5-12 (New King James Version)
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[a] for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[B] tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

>>>>>>>>>>
the saints here,are also the brothers in Christ, the adopted sons of God, the remnant of the bride or the two witnesses. These are the chosen ones that Satan is trying to tramp out .This is his Kingdom on earth this NWO, no room for Christ or any of his followers. That's why Jesus prayed for them and for those who would listen to them in our time, because we would certainly be no part of that world. John 17 th chapter.

Even now we are in the world but should keep separate from our surroundings with out compromising our faith, so we should be well trained when the take over is complete.

Now these are just the way I see things and I am sure there are many different
thoughts from every one, but yes Intern, I can see why we cant agree, but at least we can agree to disagree

love susanna ,
:grouphug:


Jehovah and one is a large army
04-06-2011 12:30 PM
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llee
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Posts: 417
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Post: #13
RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:

From Sis Susanna/Stayawake:

She apologizes for the "mess" of this post; her computer went amok and she was unable to edit or delete it and hopefully she'll be able to repost the corrected, coherent version some other time.

Thank you ALL for your love and patience:grouphug::heartbeat:
sis



Susanna Wrote:
Dear Interp
You say
The 144,000 represent the remnant of Jewish Christians who would survive their nation's destruction.

The "great crowd" represent the masses of Gentile Christians who were believers.

>>>>>>>>>>>
I Am really trying to understand your way of thinking.

correct me if I have this wrong.
Are all of these Jewish Christian living in Israel now ?or are you talking about 70 CE.
Past or future ?
Remember the gentiles were added on to that Fig tree which pictured the Nation, so it picks up a spiritual picture for our day. Romans the 11 th chapter. The fig tree pictured their nation.

The Christian Jews living in Israel will be part of the bride or ambassadors of Christ and will do the same in Israel that the Gentile brothers will be preaching in other nations " , that Christ Kingdom was set up in the heavens. "
With what's going on over in the Arab world over there , who knows when Israel will be attacked. But for a certainty she will go down at Armageddon.

If its before the remaining Brides mission of 3.5 years is completed or not, remains to be seen
, but the remnants mission will not be interrupted until they finish their mission, regardless what takes place in the mid east.

I personally believe ,the seven Peace Treaty is yet to come.
The stage is set, The UN have already given a peace title to the main player.

His white horse is out to conquer , he has a bow which is a weapon.
Naturally there has to be wars , looking like there will be a third world war. Looking like there's no way out,everything looks dark,
Cant very well have a peace treaty if there are no wars .
This is another reason he's going to run again, because he's sure he can bring peace. ( this of course has yet to be proven )

Matt 24:21-25
21 (A)For the trouble at that time will be far more terrible than any there has ever been, from the beginning of the world to this very day. Nor will there ever be anything like it again.22 But God has already reduced the number of days; had he not done so,nobody would survive. For the sake of his chosen people, however, God will reduce the days.

23 Then, if anyone says to you,
Look, here is the Messiah! or
There he is!' do not believe it.24 For false Messiahs and false prophets will appear; they will perform great miracles and wonders in order to deceive even God's chosen people, if possible.25 Listen! I have told you this ahead of time.


Cross references:
Matthew 24:21 : Matt 24:21; Dan 12:1; ; Rev 7:14; .
>>>>>>>>>>
Jah will permit this to go just so far, but will cut it short or no flesh would be saved, but because of the chosen ones those days will be cut short,
Hence the seven year peace treaty.
Following that treaty we will also have the fulfillment of the prophecy written by Paul to the remnant of the bride living today .
1 Thessalonians 5:1-7 (New King James Version)

1 Thessalonians 5
The Day of the Lord
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
>>>>>>>>>>
Following that announcement ,some time during that first half of those seven years , the 3.5 years that belong to the remaining remnant will start their mission, before the treaty is broken in the middle of the week,
Suddenly is what to Jehovah ? To carry out all that will take place during that treaty.
That when The Dragons 3.5 years has its ruling power,

The tribulation then will be heavy on the Christians that refuse to be part of the Dragons government or Babylon the great ,Because they take sides with Christ remaining brothers here on earth that are preaching with Holy spirit.
Revelation 13:5-12 (New King James Version)
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[a] for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[B] tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

>>>>>>>>>>
the saints here,are also the brothers in Christ, the adopted sons of God, the remnant of the bride or the two witnesses. These are the chosen ones that Satan is trying to tramp out .This is his Kingdom on earth this NWO, no room for Christ or any of his followers. That's why Jesus prayed for them and for those who would listen to them in our time, because we would certainly be no part of that world. John 17 th chapter.

Even now we are in the world but should keep separate from our surroundings with out compromising our faith, so we should be well trained when the take over is complete.

Now these are just the way I see things and I am sure there are many different
thoughts from every one, but yes Intern, I can see why we cant agree, but at least we can agree to disagree

love susanna ,

Dear Interp
You say
The 144,000 represent the remnant of Jewish Christians who would survive their nation's destruction.

The "great crowd" represent the masses of Gentile Christians who were believers.

>>>>>>>>>>>
I Am really trying to understand your way of thinking.

correct me if I have this wrong.
Are all of these Jewish Christian living in Israel now ?or are you talking about 70 CE.
Past or future ?
Remember the gentiles were added on to that Fig tree which pictured the Nation, so it picks up a spiritual picture for our day. Romans the 11 th chapter. The fig tree pictured their nation.

The Christian Jews living in Israel will be part of the bride or ambassadors of Christ and will do the same in Israel that the Gentile brothers will be preaching in other nations " , that Christ Kingdom was set up in the heavens. "
With what's going on over in the Arab world over there , who knows when Israel will be attacked. But for a certainty she will go down at Armageddon.

If its before the remaining Brides mission of 3.5 years is completed or not, remains to be seen
, but the remnants mission will not be interrupted until they finish their mission, regardless what takes place in the mid east.

I personally believe ,the seven Peace Treaty is yet to come.
The stage is set, The UN have already given a peace title to the main player.

His white horse is out to conquer , he has a bow which is a weapon.
Naturally there has to be wars , looking like there will be a third world war. Looking like there's no way out,everything looks dark,
Cant very well have a peace treaty if there are no wars .
This is another reason he's going to run again, because he's sure he can bring peace. ( this of course has yet to be proven )

Matt 24:21-25
21 (A)For the trouble at that time will be far more terrible than any there has ever been, from the beginning of the world to this very day. Nor will there ever be anything like it again.22 But God has already reduced the number of days; had he not done so,nobody would survive. For the sake of his chosen people, however, God will reduce the days.

23 Then, if anyone says to you,
Look, here is the Messiah! or
There he is!' do not believe it.24 For false Messiahs and false prophets will appear; they will perform great miracles and wonders in order to deceive even God's chosen people, if possible.25 Listen! I have told you this ahead of time.


Cross references:
Matthew 24:21 : Matt 24:21; Dan 12:1; ; Rev 7:14; .
>>>>>>>>>>
Jah will permit this to go just so far, but will cut it short or no flesh would be saved, but because of the chosen ones those days will be cut short,
Hence the seven year peace treaty.
Following that treaty we will also have the fulfillment of the prophecy written by Paul to the remnant of the bride living today .
1 Thessalonians 5:1-7 (New King James Version)

1 Thessalonians 5
The Day of the Lord
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
>>>>>>>>>>
Following that announcement ,some time during that first half of those seven years , the 3.5 years that belong to the remaining remnant will start their mission, before the treaty is broken in the middle of the week,
Suddenly is what to Jehovah ? To carry out all that will take place during that treaty.
That when The Dragons 3.5 years has its ruling power,

The tribulation then will be heavy on the Christians that refuse to be part of the Dragons government or Babylon the great ,Because they take sides with Christ remaining brothers here on earth that are preaching with Holy spirit.
Revelation 13:5-12 (New King James Version)
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[a] for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[B] tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

>>>>>>>>>>
the saints here,are also the brothers in Christ, the adopted sons of God, the remnant of the bride or the two witnesses. These are the chosen ones that Satan is trying to tramp out .This is his Kingdom on earth this NWO, no room for Christ or any of his followers. That's why Jesus prayed for them and for those who would listen to them in our time, because we would certainly be no part of that world. John 17 th chapter.

Even now we are in the world but should keep separate from our surroundings with out compromising our faith, so we should be well trained when the take over is complete.

Now these are just the way I see things and I am sure there are many different
thoughts from every one, but yes Intern, I can see why we cant agree, but at least we can agree to disagree

love susanna ,
:grouphug:


Psalms 68:11 "Jehovah himself gives the saying;
The women telling the good news are a large army."

"Every civilization learns what it needs to know, and the next one forgets it." Gil Grissom CSI


04-06-2011 01:31 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #14
RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

Hi Susanna

I think the formatting isn't your fault... it's probably because of the pic
that was posted earlier in this thread :)

Susanna Wrote:
I Am really trying to understand your way of thinking.

correct me if I have this wrong.
Are all of these Jewish Christian living in Israel now ?or are you talking about 70
CE.
Past or future ?
Remember the gentiles were added on to that Fig tree which pictured the Nation,
so it picks up a spiritual picture for our day. Romans the 11 th chapter. The fig tree
pictured their nation.


OK, let me explain how I see things.

I'm sure we can agree on the following: Jesus Christ came, and preached FIRST of
all to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", and his first followers were all Jews.

Even when the apostles were commissioned to preach, for a long time they ONLY
preached to the Jews first in Jerusalem, and then the Jews who lived among
Gentiles.

Only after the conversion of the Roman army officer Cornelius did Gentiles start to
become part of Jesus' flock. Thus, the message went out to Jews first, and then
later to the Gentiles.

OK... I'm sure we agree so far.

Now, all I'm saying is that both Jesus in the gospels, Paul in his letters, and
Revelation... all teach the same thing.

Jesus taught there would be two FOLDS... one Jewish, one Gentile... that would
become part of one flock under one shepherd.

Paul, as a Jew, was commissioned to take the good news both to Jews AND
Gentiles. However, in his letters, he KNEW the Jews were destined to be punished
by God, but he knew that God hadn't abandoned the Jews, because he himself was
one, and was saved through Christ.

In Romans, Paul talks about how God has not abandoned the Jews, because a
REMNANT of them would be spared, just as a REMNANT of Jews were spared in Old
Testament times, and he spends at least TWO chapters (Romans 9 and 10) making
this point.

This came true... because in the destruction of 70AD, the Jewish Christians were
spared. They were but a REMNANT of their nation.

On the other hand, there were also a large number of Gentile Christians by that
time. These formed a second FOLD, part of Jesus' one flock.

OK... I think that is fairly simple, and doesn't require a lot of complex theology.

Now, where I think you are stumbled is that I'm saying this is ALSO what
Revelation 7 teaches.

The 144,000 are from "every tribe of the sons of Israel", and the "great crowd" are
from all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues.

I am saying this chapter paints a picture of the situation PRIOR to 70AD! There
were two great congregations of Christ's people... "144,000" Jewish Christians
(although I do not take this number literally), and a "great crowd" of Gentile
Christians.

Now, I know you will groan at this point :) ... but bottom line is, that's what
happened.

This explains very simply... lots of other things. For example, it explains WHY the
144,000 are described as FIRSTFRUITS.

Remember also, in chapter 11, it strongly ALLUDES to the destruction of the Jewish
Temple. It also alludes to Jesus' own teaching, that the Jews would fall by the
sword, and Jerusalem be trampled by the nations...

"Alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! For
great distress shall be upon the earth and wrath upon this people; they will fall by
the edge of the sword, and be led captive among all nations; and Jerusalem will be
trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke
21:23,24)

This is ALSO the message of Revelation 11.

"Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: "Rise and measure
the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure
the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and
they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months." (Rev 11:1,2)

While the symbology differs, it seems pretty clear to me they're essentially
referring to the same events.

This is one of the stronger lines of evidence that Revelation was written PRIOR to
70AD, while the Jewish Temple was still standing.

Regardless of whether you accept that or not, the two are clearly related.

However, who should have the ultimate right to unlock Revelation?

Not me or you... or any reverend... but Jesus Christ!

"The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he
can open the scroll and its seven seals
."

So then... I use JESUS to unlock the seven seals. In Luke 21, he teaches that
Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, and we have that situation in
Revelation 11. Since only JESUS can open the seals, this is why I believe Rev 11 is
referring to the fall of Jerusalem.

This is the ONLY interpretation that can be matched with Jesus' own teachings!

So we will have to agree to disagree about the meaning of Revelation, because I
believe in allowing Jesus to interpret his own prophecy.

Some people are still waiting for God to unlock the meaning of Revelation... but
Jesus already did that, over 1,900 years ago!

However, just to clarify... it doesn't mean EVERYTHING in Revelation happened
prior to, or around 70AD.

In my opinion, only the "seven seals" and "seven trumpets" were about the fall of
Jerusalem. From chapter 12 onwards, the focus is on the NATIONS... and that
takes us all the way until today and beyond.

This is nothing new to Christians, because most believe Daniel's prophecies (about
the four wild beasts) stretch over HUNDREDS OF YEARS.

So why not Revelation's two wild beasts?

In fact, throughout the majority of Christianity's existence, the major belief was
that the first wild beast was the ROMAN EMPIRE. This was probably OBVIOUS to a
Christian living in the first 4 or 5 centuries.

Only in later times, once the Roman Empire was a mere footnote in history, did
this interpretation fall out of favour, and exciting new interpretations (to keep
Christians interested) were created.

This is why I am highly skeptical of those alternatives...

(1) They have no basis in Jesus' teachings, as the only one authorized to unseal
the seals,

(2) They take prophecies completely out of context.

(3) They ignore the historical developments.


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-06-2011 02:35 PM
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Resolute
politicus incorrectissimus in extremis


Posts: 1,883
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #15
RE: Some Prophetic Speculations

Hey peeps, I can see where the problem of posting lies. It's the huge image on this page that needs to be re-sized. I don't know how to do this, but perhaps the image can be removed and a link to it put up in its stead.

Otherwise, just be patient and soon there will be a new page.

Sorry, Susanna. I wish I was more tech-savvy..... :(

In the meantime, just use the slide bar at the bottom to read the posts.

love and regrets,
rez


When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one… – Edmund Burke
04-06-2011 02:53 PM
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