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Prophets or Prophesying Today?
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Post: #31
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hi BR

BruisedReed Wrote:
Hi again ... not so sure I fully can agree ... for it would seem to me that these 'two witnesses' would do MIRACULOUS just as all the other prophets did before them ...


I agree with you, it seems that way. But chapter 11 presents us with a challenge. What are we to take literally, and what is figurative, or illustrative?

For example... are they also LITERALLY two olive trees and two lampstands? (Rev 11:4) Probably not... however, Paul talks about the entire Christian body as an olive tree! (Romans 11).

Did the Christian congregation perform miracles? Yes! From 33AD when they were able to "speak in tongues", to Peter and John's healing of people, to Paul's raising of a dead boy... the New Testament is FULL of miracles!

Of course, the period alluded to is also the period during which the nations trampled Jerusalem in 70AD (compare with Luke 21:23,24). Now, you probably don't believe it is ACTUALLY referring to that period... but the ALLUSION is there. Now imagine being a Christian in 70AD...

...it would be like your words WERE like fire... because what your Lord taught was coming true before your very eyes!

It's difficult, because the passage sometimes reads like they are two LITERAL prophets, and sometimes not.

However, the fact they are also "two olive trees" and "two lampstands" strongly suggests to me they are NOT.

While they were two literal men in Zechariah, in Christian symbology an olive tree represented the Christian congregation, and Jesus used lampstands to represent congregations (Rev 1:20).

Also, do you really believe they're going to be able to literally breathe fire? If that is really metaphorical... couldn't it possibly be their other qualities are metaphorical?


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04-06-2011 03:00 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Indeed the outpouring at Penticost was a truly miraculous event and one that caused a great 'spiritual awakening' for many didn't ... !!:read::thumbsup::cheer::cheer:

There were many many miracles performed by the apostles and much knowledge shared by the apostles and disciples alike wasn't there!

But we also cannot ignore these words of Paul either can we ...?

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 ...


8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.

So, by Paul saying these words wouldn't that seem to indicate that even WITH the 'holy spirit' being poured out upon Jesus' followers at that time that they STILL DID NOT HAVE FULL UNDERSTANDING ...?

That even the apostles were also looking for a FUTURE TIME ... the 'last days perhaps' ... ;) when a unique and once in a life time occurance were going to happen on the earth ...?

A time of distress that would be unparallel ... and thus have to have something to equal it some way perhaps ...?

And the two witnesses and their 'abilities' ... along with all the angelic activity that would be occurring will make those who are witnesses to it indeed want to rejoice as they see PROPHESY being 'fulfilled' as well as whatever else the two witnesses will do?

That is why the prophesy of Joel an Acts is to me something that hasn't occurred as of yet ... but when it is there will be PROOF POSITIVE ... that they are indeed 'true prophets'!!

Some further ponderings and meanderings ... Luv BR :)


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04-06-2011 03:02 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #33
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hi Seraphim

Seraphim Wrote:
One aspect of the role of the prophet was in being a counterbalance to the priestly side of things.


Interesting point. Jesus said to the scribes and Pharisees...

"Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town..." (Matt 23:34)

This was the "counterbalance" you're talking about. Interesting that Jesus' followers would perform different roles... prophets, wise men, scribes!

I suppose the apostle Paul would be classed as a "scribe", given he wrote so many letters and was also persecuted from town to town!

In Revelation, John performs a similar function, but to the nations:

"Go, take the scroll which is open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land... And I was told, "You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and tongues and kings." (Rev 10:8-11)

(By the way... for me, this adds validity to the view that John's book was written shortly before 70AD. Up until that point, John's visions were focused on the fall of Jerusalem... but by chapter 10, John is given a new assignment... to prophecy about the nations. Chapter 11 completes the fall of Jerusalem by the trampling of the NATIONS... and these become the focus from that point on. Of course, those "nations" were primarily the ones that comprised the Roman empire.)

Quote:
A teacher teaches the statuesque or accepted interpretation or ways of doing things, but a prophet does the opposite from God based on new circumstances that turn the application of just laws into unjust ones ect. This might also explain why prophets are considered one notch above teachers as Paul seems to suggest. Does that help at all?


Yes, that makes sense. God often sent prophets when He was about to bring a major CHANGE in some way, i.e.

Moses -> the founding of the nation of Israel.
The OT Prophets -> especially closer to the fall of Israel and Judah to Assyria and Babylon respectively
Daniel, Haggai and Zechariah -> to RESTORE Israel
John The Baptist and Jesus -> close to the FALL again of Israel

However, there are big differences between the prophets. Daniel and John the author of Revelation wrote very apocalyptic books, while Moses was mainly a teacher and leader. Similarly with John the Baptist and Jesus, though they are both prophets... but they themselves wrote very little if anything.


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04-06-2011 03:14 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hi again br. interpretum ... :hibye:

Since with our heavenly Father ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE ... anything is possible ... ;):whistle::whistle::hug::D

Since Revelation is written .... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ....

Just noticed something I was going to say to you and am now in a mind doubletake ...

I WAS going to say that verse one of Revelation says John was given this Revelation by 'signs' ... but am now going to have to do some rethinking on it ... new thread material perhaps ... :whistle::whistle:;)

Anyway, back to your comment ...

Whether the 'two' is literal or not ... the PRINCIPLE behind it probably being at the mouth of two or more a matter is firmly established ... we can surely count on something occurring that will FIT these words at some time in our future can we not ...?

That the 'prophetic witness work' they are going to do will 'rock our world' to the point that those who will oppose will do so very strongly ... but I would hazard a guess and say that those who will see and join along with them will do so just as strongly as well!!

Luv to you BR :)


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04-06-2011 03:23 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hi BR

BruisedReed Wrote:
So, by Paul saying these words wouldn't that seem to indicate that even WITH the 'holy spirit' being poured out upon Jesus' followers at that time that they STILL DID NOT HAVE FULL UNDERSTANDING ...?

That even the apostles were also looking for a FUTURE TIME ... the 'last days perhaps' ... ;) when a unique and once in a life time occurance were going to happen on the earth ...?


Indeed they didn't have a full understanding, and indeed they were looking forward to a future time.

I just wonder how far future was their expectations? Didn't Peter believe the "last days" were in HIS day?

"Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh..." (Acts 2:14-17)

So when did Peter believe that scripture in Joel was fulfilled? "Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear." (2:33)

Therefore Peter believed he was living in "the last days"!

Indeed, Peter says more...

"And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." (Acts 2:40)

Where do you think he got his belief about them needing to save themselves from "this crooked generation"?

Quote:
That is why the prophesy of Joel an Acts is to me something that hasn't occurred as of yet ... but when it is there will be PROOF POSITIVE ... that they are indeed 'true prophets'!!


...but it does make me wonder, then, why Peter quoted from it if it hasn't occurred yet. He quoted from it to PROVE to his audience that the outpouring of the Spirit was prophecied by Joel!

Was he wrong? :)

Or maybe... just maybe... our expectations are wrong... and that the "last days" was the period from 33AD, up until the destruction of Jerusalem... destroying that crooked generation which Peter warned persons to flee from... and coincidentally, Jesus said it would occur on that generation!

This is the natural conclusion I come to as a result of Peter's quoting from Joel.


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04-06-2011 03:28 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hi BR

By the way, I hope you'll take my comments in the spirit of friendly discussion and debate... I'm not trying to "attack" your beliefs... simply challenge them in a healthy way :)

BruisedReed Wrote:
I WAS going to say that verse one of Revelation says John was given this Revelation by 'signs' ... but am now going to have to do some rethinking on it ... new thread material perhaps ... :whistle::whistle:;)


I understand. Revelation IS a tough nut to crack, because all of us take some bits literally, some bits metaphorically, in "signs".

I prefer to look at them as a series of dramatic visions, and we've been left to piece together exactly what each of the visions mean... no easy job! However, I'd still suggest that Jesus holds the KEY, as he is the only one authorized to open the seals... which is why I keep referring back to his teachings.

Quote:
Whether the 'two' is literal or not ... the PRINCIPLE behind it probably being at the mouth of two or more a matter is firmly established ... we can surely count on something occurring that will FIT these words at some time in our future can we not ...?


Good point. Definitely they are TWO to establish something as true.

I think our point of disagreement is simply that I believe this was fulfilled in 70-73AD, while you believe it is future.

I guess if it's future, we'll have to wait and see. Certainly it would be exciting to see two witnesses do something reported like in Revelation 11!

However, I'm still confused as to what we're going to expect them to do. If they're literally going to plague the earth, then they should also literally breathe fire.

But we have a precedent for saying this is probably NOT literal, with Jeremiah:

"Therefore thus says the LORD, the God of hosts: "Because they have spoken this word, behold, I am making my words in your mouth a fire, and this people wood, and the fire shall devour them." (Jeremiah 5:14)

Maybe a better question we could ask is... IF the plaguing and stopping the waters are metaphorical, what does THAT mean? :)


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04-06-2011 03:39 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hey br. interpretum ...

Enjoyed your comments ...

If I were to make a comment on the 'last days' ... I would say that indeed the 'last days' of Jerusalem standing as they knew were to come upon them indeed ... so in a sense it would be the 'last days' for them ...

But I also cannot ignore Jesus' prophetic words and what he said would occur ALL OVER THE EARTH ... not just generally in Jerusalem ...

Wouldn't that then make a 'different last days' to look to' ... a time yet to have occurred ...?

I can't say that I am scholar in any sense such as you my brother ... but in my desire to want to learn as ACCURATELY as I can the things in God's word I am searching and digging away as usual ... :)

Luv bro ...BR :sheepy: :friends:


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04-06-2011 03:41 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hi BR

BruisedReed Wrote:
But I also cannot ignore Jesus' prophetic words and what he said would occur ALL OVER THE EARTH ... not just generally in Jerusalem ...

Wouldn't that then make a 'different last days' to look to' ... a time yet to have occurred ...?


The way I see it, the Bible does this all the time. For example, way back in Genesis...

"Moreover, all the earth came to Egypt to Joseph to buy grain, because the famine was severe over all the earth." (Gen 41:57)

It's probably not true that every single person on earth came to Egypt, but "all the earth" is a sweeping statement which simplifies the account.

After Nebuchadnezzar... "after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth." (Dan 2:39)

The Greek kingdom of bronze didn't really rule over ALL the earth... but since it became the dominant power at the time of Alexandria, it could be DRAMATICALLY said to "rule over all the earth".

Similarly, in the days of the registration of Jesus' house...

"Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth." (Luke 2:1)

Of course, Augustus could only do that as far as his power would permit him, i.e. within the Roman empire, and those nations that were subject to him.

So I'm suggesting that, when Jesus was talking about "all the inhabited earth" in Matt 24, he was primarily talking about the Roman empire, just as Luke meant that phrase in Luke 2.

Quote:
I can't say that I am scholar in any sense such as you my brother ... but in my desire to want to learn as ACCURATELY as I can the things in God's word I am searching and digging away as usual ... :)


I'm not a scholar either... we all have to learn by digging into God's word! In fact, we're probably ALL being taught by Jehovah, simply by all of us having these conversations!


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04-06-2011 04:02 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

I tend to agree with you br. interpretum on the use of the wording 'all over the earth' or 'all the earth' etc doesn't necessarily always mean the ENTIRE earth when it is mentioned especially I would say in the Hebrew scriptures ...

That being said however ... yeah there comes my 'but' kind of thing ... :)

When Jesus spoke his prophetic words to his followers he used some expressions that ... to me ... pointed to a far future time as well as to a time that they themselves would see in their lifetime ...

For example if you take note of some of these verses I would think that they pointed to a time in the DISTANT future and not necessarily in the foressable future that the apostles lived in ...

I think that indeed the Israelites/Jewish people A great tribulation ... and that if the days weren't cut short no one would have survived the food shortage that occurred when they were surrounded by the Roman army ...

but ...

yeah here it comes ...

Did they experience earthquakes in one place after another ... was the sky darkened ... did the moon not give its light ... and did Jeus appear in heavens with his army of angels ... to name just a few events spoken of in Matthew 24: 29-31 for example ...?

29 [b]“Immediately after[/b] the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.


There is a LOT of stuff happening in this entire chapter ... and during one of my diggings I went in search of the just the 'sun not shining' and the 'moon not giving its light' ...

I figured this might be talking about a lunar and solar eclipse ... but as of yet in all my digging around I was unable to find this event occurring during the time spoken of during the seige of Jerusalem ...

So, that only led me to perhaps conclude that there was also ANOTHER fulfillment to this prophesy ... a FAR-REACHING and GLOBAL one as it says in verse [b]Matthew 24:14[/b] ...

14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in [b]all [/b]the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

What I just found today that I find interesting is this expression ... maybe you know what it means ...


Or, “joint end; combination end; ending together.” Gr., syn‧te‧lei′as; Lat., con‧sum‧ma‧ti‧o′nis.

This is in relation of course to Matt. 24:3 ...

3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

A 'joint end' ...???? a combination end ...????

Could this expression imply a TWO-FOLD application perhaps?

The Greek word in Strong's says this ...

G4930 συντέλεια

sunteleia soon-tel'-i-ah


From G4931; entire completion, that is, consummation (of a dispensation): - end.


So, since I believe that only a PART of this prophesy occurred back in the apostles time ... and this word would seem to indicate that ALL events would have to occur to fit the meaning ... then it would seem it prudent on our part to continue to look to the future for a future and far-reaching fulfillment of Jesus' prophetic words IMHO of course ... :)

And in line with the topic ... I think he spoke these words as PROPHET and not necessarily as a 'teacher' ... for he was telling them something that was going to happen in the FUTURE ... just had to throw that in there ... :D

luv BR


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04-06-2011 04:38 PM
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rus virgil
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Post: #40
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

The prophets of today are different than those of old times.

those of old times (in Israel) were transmitting what they received from God , even things or declarations they could not understand.

When Christ come, He brought something new / He taught that Father wants worship "with spirit and with truth"

the today's prophets are firstly Christians and members of Christ's congregation
1 Cor. 12:
28. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

then, those who are "set as prophets" by God are "anointed" with God's Spirit , that is they benefits by a directly help from God's Spirit in understanding the things of God
1 John 2:
20. And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and ye know all the things.
27. And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

"his anointing teacheth you ...concerning all things" - what "all things" ?

Let's go to Jesus words
John 16:
13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
-- he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.

so, one who "received an anointing from the Holy One" is taught by the Spirit "everything" the Spirit hears from Father and Son (not more, not less) ...
so, "all things" means here "all things" Father wants his worshipers to know (and not "everything" our curiosity would like to know)

another thing is that "the Spirit shall guide you into all the truth"... so, here doesn't say that "the receiver" of what the Spirit says will receive literal dreams or visions (as the prophets of old time) ,
but the Spirit will "guide you into all the truth"
"Your word is truth"
so, "into all the truth" means "into all Bible" , from Genesis to Revelation , in order to make the connexion between the "God's utterances" regarding certain subjects / and this is because God "speaks now a way, now another way"

There was clearly shown that God has sealed certain things in the prophetical word . When the "proper time" of God comes , He is revealing "new things" through the "Spirit of Truth" , and the "recipients" (receivers) of what the Spirit says will be guided (in all the Bible) so that they will understand the value of certain prophecies ( which God wants his worshipers to know).

Toward the end of the Great Tribulation is to happen a great "pouring of the Spirit"

WHY SO ?

because the GT is exactly the time when God "hides His Face from His people, included the "anointed ones" , because they previously have angered Him) .. during this period of time the MoL is "reigning in the Temple of God"

this GT lasts for "70 years" and it has begun in (spring of) 1942 and lasts until 2012 .
these are "the 70 years of Babylon"
but as Jesus said , the tribulation will be shortened - HOW ?

the tribulation is shortened trough the fact that God (of whom Face was hidden ) is turning/showing His Face toward His people giving again "light" to them earlier than the 70 years will end

this light is meant to heal their sufferings and to fill the hungers and thirsty ones ( for truth)

here come Jesus words:
Matt. 24:
31. And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"his angels" are not the invisible ones , but are those who are "set by God .. in church .. as prophets"
they are firstly hearing what the Spirit of truth says , that is, revealing "new things" from God
the knowledge/light they share is helping others to "gather together" by coming to light .

This is the place for "prophets" now ,at "the end of the days" , when Jesus is "at the door".

this is the way they are "prophesying" , from "all the truth" or "all the Bible" .
The Song of Moses is a key for further understanding of prophecies of God.

This "pouring of the Spirit" has increased much from the autumn of 2005 , because then was the "tribulation" shortened for those who "received" what the Spirit had to say.

in Christ,
rus virgil

04-06-2011 06:49 PM
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Post: #41
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hello br. rus virgil ... :hibye:

Interesting thoughts ... :thinking:

Something you said has got me wondering why you would reason that way ...

The prophets of today are different than those of old times.

How is it that you have come to that conclusion? :dontknow:

It would seem part of your reasoning is when you said this ...

When Christ come, He brought something new / He taught that Father wants worship "with spirit and with truth"

What is it about this statement that makes you think that prophets of today cannot be used as prophets in the past ...?:dontknow:

you used the scripture at 1Cor.12:28 ...

(ASV) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

(BBE) And God has put some in the church, first, Apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then those with wonder-working powers, then those with the power of taking away disease, helpers, wise guides, users of strange tongues.

(CEV) First, God chose some people to be apostles and prophets and teachers for the church. But he also chose some to work miracles or heal the sick or help others or be leaders or speak different kinds of languages.


I have no problem with seeing how our Father's holy spirit brought about varying gifts to be used by those to whom he saw fit ... and that one of these gifts was the ability to PROPHESY ...

From what I am understanding you feel that the GT is now upon us and thus the outpouring of holy spirit is underway in the above mentioned ways?

If this is so ... then how is this different from times of old ...?

I too believe that for everything there is time and a season ...

However, I tend to think that when truly MIRACULOUS THINGS begin occurring ... when HEALINGS like in bible times happen ... when speaking in tongues occurs in a way that there is no other explanation for a person to know another language and yet he does ... that these things will spread like wildfire especially when you consider TV, Internet, Newpapers and the like ...

And that just like in times past honest-hearted ones were drawn to the MESSAGE (although I also think that some may just be drawn for the 'benefits' just as in past as well) that in the right time a GREAT CROWD will be 'born' ... and the REASON for such gifts being brought about again ... a TRUE and RIGHTEOUS DIVINE message with NO MISTAKES or PRIVATE INTREPRETATIONS will have once again served its purpose ...

Today I feel we are still in the going to and fro stage ... searching and digging and being ready to hear and see and feel ...

When this gift of holy spirit is poured out in that unique way many will be recipients of it according to scripture ... and they will unselfishly share in purpose of receiving it!

Just some more thoughts ... BR :sheepy:


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04-06-2011 07:29 PM
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Post: #42
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

ablebodiedman Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:
BR,

This is what I would expect a Christian Prophet to be doing:

John 16:7-15
For if I do not go away, the helper will by no means come to YOU; but if I do go my way, I will send him to YOU. 8 And when that one arrives he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: 9 in the first place, concerning sin, because they are not exercising faith in me; 10 then concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father and YOU will behold me no longer; 11 then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 “I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU. 15 All the things that the Father has are mine. That is why I said he receives from what is mine and declares [it] to YOU.


BR,

Further to this scripture, I see similarities to what the Apostle Paul said in 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2:

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8
Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence

What is; "the spirit of his mouth"?

I think John Chapter 16 answers that question:

when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth
he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU

The spirit of his mouth!

For this reason I believe that a modern Christian Prophet who exists during the time immediately before Jesus Christs manifestation will play a significant role in exposing, doing away with and judging the man of lawlessness.


That these are "called ones" is supported by what the Apostle Paul said immediately after describing the "man of lawlessness":


2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
However, we are obligated to thank God always for YOU, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected YOU from [the] beginning for salvation by sanctifying YOU with spirit and by YOUR faith in the truth. 14 To this very destiny he called YOU through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


In Christ

abe



BR,

An additional thought in regard to John Chapter 16 is the context in which Jesus Christ delivered the message:


John 16:1-4
“I have spoken these things to YOU that YOU may not be stumbled. 2 Men will expel YOU from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills YOU will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God. 3 But they will do these things because they have not come to know either the Father or me. 4 Nevertheless, I have spoken these things to YOU that, when the hour for them arrives, YOU may remember I told them to YOU.


If that "hour" has indeed arrived (as I believe it has) then Jesus Christ was addressing Christians who would be thrown out of their church.

It is therefore unlikely that you would find a prophet in a church during the end time.

After all, I would expect that prophet to have seen the "man of lawlessness" in his church and have pointed it out to his congregation.

One of the reasons why I like to come to this forum is because I know there are several members (and curious visitors) here who have been disfellowshipped.


I also see a link in John Chapter 16 to the two witnesses.

Compare John 16:

John 16:20
Most truly I say to YOU, YOU will weep and wail, but the world will rejoice


To Revelation Chapter 11:

You will weep and wail

Revelation 11:3
And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.


the world will rejoice

Revelation 11:10
And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves


I do not think the end time prophets will enjoy their work.

The just feel necessarily obligated to do it.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-06-2011 08:15 PM
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BruisedReed
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Post: #43
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hi again br abe ...

I too tend to think that these 'prophets' (2 witnesses) may not come out of the 'organized religion either ...

For doesn't 'sackcloth' usually meaning mourning of some kind ... and does not the scriptures teach that 'religion' will have become so corrupt with false teachings, spiritism and the like that that would give any TRUE believer who was wanting to serve in 'spirit and truth' a REASON to 'mourn' or don themselves with 'sackcloth' either literally or figuratively ...

Hence also our 'sighing and groaning' over the detestable things that are being done on in the and/or in our religions ...?

Perhaps it is AFTER the two witnesses do their 'job' and die that the holy spirit is poured out upon those 'sons ... daughters ... old men ...?

Is not digging into scripture in search for light so very cool my brother!

One thing that I didn't realize until I started digging into this topic was that I had been conditioned by the society to believe that there would be no such things possible for us in our time period ... that these miraculous things could indeed be experienced by us today and how they had cut our God's hand short and rewrote things with a 'twist' so as to take away from the full imput of scripture ... what a surprise huh ...?

Luv BR :)


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04-06-2011 08:24 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #44
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

BruisedReed Wrote:
For doesn't 'sackcloth' usually meaning mourning of some kind ... and does not the scriptures teach that 'religion' will have become so corrupt with false teachings, spiritism and the like that that would give any TRUE believer who was wanting to serve in 'spirit and truth' a REASON to 'mourn' or don themselves with 'sackcloth' either literally or figuratively ...




BR,

I agree, the end time prophets will be mourning in sackcloth.

Yep, the exact opposite of those slap you on the back and pump you full of sunshine Christians which are so prevalent today.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

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The Unforgivable Sin
04-06-2011 08:29 PM
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rus virgil
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Post: #45
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hello dear sister,
I will answer to a few points you ask me ( as I can now)
my words in brown

BruisedReed Wrote:
Hello br. rus virgil ... :hibye:

Interesting thoughts ... :thinking:

Something you said has got me wondering why you would reason that way ...

The prophets of today are different than those of old times.

How is it that you have come to that conclusion? :dontknow:

It would seem part of your reasoning is when you said this ...

When Christ come, He brought something new / He taught that Father wants worship "with spirit and with truth"

I didn't mean that the old time prophets were more or less faithful to God than those of today

beside the fact that they were worshiping Father according to the way they were taught then ( and those of today are Christians , practicing worship with spirit and truth ),
I mean the way they are told what to prophecy
in the old times they were told or taught miraculously by God things which were not written already in a book , new things/body of prophecies that in many cases they did not understood

while the today "prophets" are being lead by Spirit in all truth (that is in all written already word of God) , and , the Spirit helps them to understand what is written there, and to tell "as truth" only the things understandable and well and correctly based on scripture
here is the difference - that doesn't mean we already know "everything" or all things

all Christians are (and were always) under the commandment :
20. do not despise prophetic utterances.
21. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
22. abstain from every form of evil.

the duty of a "prophet" is to search the "prophetic utterances" always, that is even before of the time of their revelation , to examine them carefully , to "proclaim" only what is good / or what is well founded in Scripture , and to "abstain" from declaring the unsure things .

the "gift" of doing that is given to a few from Congregation , not to all (it is God who gives these gifts )

so, in this way the today prophets are different that the old ones



What is it about this statement that makes you think that prophets of today cannot be used as prophets in the past ...?:dontknow:

you used the scripture at 1Cor.12:28 ...

(ASV) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

(BBE) And God has put some in the church, first, Apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then those with wonder-working powers, then those with the power of taking away disease, helpers, wise guides, users of strange tongues.

(CEV) First, God chose some people to be apostles and prophets and teachers for the church. But he also chose some to work miracles or heal the sick or help others or be leaders or speak different kinds of languages.


I have no problem with seeing how our Father's holy spirit brought about varying gifts to be used by those to whom he saw fit ... and that one of these gifts was the ability to PROPHESY ...

From what I am understanding you feel that the GT is now upon us and thus the outpouring of holy spirit is underway in the above mentioned ways?

The GT is almost finished
I have thought that you (and all readers of this forum) have already read my thread were I strived myself to explain in english the "latter days chronology" according to the order of events prophetised in the Song of Moses
please see and think my thread "the teaching of Christ"
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=1116

or here is with "introduction" (see the first post here and follow the given link http://www.biblestudents.net/forum/index...opic=127.0

( I hope it is "understandable" )



If this is so ... then how is this different from times of old ...?

I too believe that for everything there is time and a season ...

However, I tend to think that when truly MIRACULOUS THINGS begin occurring ... when HEALINGS like in bible times happen ... when speaking in tongues occurs in a way that there is no other explanation for a person to know another language and yet he does ... that these things will spread like wildfire especially when you consider TV, Internet, Newpapers and the like ...

And that just like in times past honest-hearted ones were drawn to the MESSAGE (although I also think that some may just be drawn for the 'benefits' just as in past as well) that in the right time a GREAT CROWD will be 'born' ... and the REASON for such gifts being brought about again ... a TRUE and RIGHTEOUS DIVINE message with NO MISTAKES or PRIVATE INTREPRETATIONS will have once again served its purpose ...

Today I feel we are still in the going to and fro stage ... searching and digging and being ready to hear and see and feel ...

When this gift of holy spirit is poured out in that unique way many will be recipients of it according to scripture ... and they will unselfishly share in purpose of receiving it!

I agree that many will be "recipients" of Holy Spirit , but that doesn't change God's purpose for those "set as prophets" - Amos 3:7
these ones are the first ones to whom God gives the light from His sealed prophecies, and through them others hears and their "ears" will become "ears which hear"
God is a God "of order" , and in the way He works this order is seen (not in the fact that He would have an "visible/earthly organisation" as WT likes to say - using the same verse


Just some more thoughts ... BR :sheepy:

04-06-2011 08:30 PM
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