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Prophets or Prophesying Today?
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BruisedReed
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Post: #46
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hello again br. virgil ...

I haven't had much time in the recent past to read everything ... and so I missed your thread ... :(

So in light of your response it would seem that you feel that are prophets today?

Am I correct?

And if so ... may I humbly ask who you think they might be?

In luv and and deep respect ... your sis in the faith ... BR :sheepy::love:


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04-06-2011 08:41 PM
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rus virgil
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Post: #47
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

BruisedReed Wrote:
Hello again br. virgil ...

I haven't had much time in the recent past to read everything ... and so I missed your thread ... :(

So in light of your response it would seem that you feel that are prophets today?

Am I correct?

And if so ... may I humbly ask who you think they might be?

In luv and and deep respect ... your sis in the faith ... BR :sheepy::love:

You are correct !

Surely there are "prophets" today !

You have to rekognise them by the message they speak
I will not point my finger toward any person (today , may be later I will )
but I invite you to read one of my "presentation"
http://bibleforum.reslight.net/index.php...130.0.html

in Christ,
rus virgil

04-06-2011 08:57 PM
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BruisedReed
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Post: #48
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

And hence my thread ... ;)

For I am not sure there are 'prophets' today ... YET ... in the sense of how the scriptures say they will be ...

For a TRUE PROPHET can never make a mistake either in message nor in understanding if the message is given DIRECTLY BY GOD THROUGH HIS HOLY SPIRIT ...

See my pondering ...?

I don't know of ANYONE today who fits that bill except those in scripture ...

But I DO think that there WILL be ...

Hence why I am wondering if 'prophet' is the correct word ... and maybe instead of it words like ...

Messengers
Evangelizers
Proclaimers
Teachers
Pupils
Students
Preachers


and words like that ...

To me when I think of a 'prophet' I think of someone INSPIRED OF GOD to give a MESSAGE or PROPHESY of some sort ...

It is so easy these days for someone to 'claim' to be a prophet or sent by God ... but the 'proof is in the pudding' ... or the 'outcome' isn't it?! ;):whistle::siskiss:

Making sure of all things is surely a wonderful way to search for treasure indeedy ...

Luv BE :) :love:


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04-06-2011 09:06 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #49
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

BruisedReed Wrote:
Hi again br. interpretum ... :hibye:

Since with our heavenly Father ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE ... anything is possible ... ;):whistle::whistle::hug::D

Since Revelation is written .... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ....

Just noticed something I was going to say to you and am now in a mind doubletake ...

I WAS going to say that verse one of Revelation says John was given this Revelation by 'signs' ... but am now going to have to do some rethinking on it ... new thread material perhaps ... :whistle::whistle:;)

Anyway, back to your comment ...

Whether the 'two' is literal or not ... the PRINCIPLE behind it probably being at the mouth of two or more a matter is firmly established ... we can surely count on something occurring that will FIT these words at some time in our future can we not ...?

That the 'prophetic witness work' they are going to do will 'rock our world' to the point that those who will oppose will do so very strongly ... but I would hazard a guess and say that those who will see and join along with them will do so just as strongly as well!!

Luv to you BR :)



BR,

I personally don't think there will come a time before the conclusion of this sytem of things when any prophets will 'rock our world'.

Jesus Christ indicated that they would be treated with indifference:

Matthew 24:36-39
“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.


I don't expect the two witnesses will ever be a main stream media event.

I do think that most Christians are expecting some kind of news to appear on their television that two guys are walking around breathing fire out of their mouths and burning people up.


I don't see that ever happening.

After the conclusion of the system of things however, I do expect to see some really interesting stuff.


Deaf people hearing, lame people walking, dead people resurrecting kind of stuff.


In Christ

abe


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04-06-2011 10:08 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #50
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Prophets are never recognised in their own territory.

Joh 1:11 He came to his own creation, yet his own people did not receive him.

04-06-2011 10:17 PM
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NewTruth
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Post: #51
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?



So, it seems no one can think of any famous modern day prophets.. yet we are living in the end times.. where there has to be some..as history has patterned.

Do you think perhaps people are looking in the wrong direction???

04-07-2011 12:01 AM
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Seraphim
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Post: #52
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

I think its very unlikely we are in the end times.

04-07-2011 12:09 AM
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NewTruth
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Post: #53
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?



huh??? Brian????

04-07-2011 02:04 AM
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BruisedReed
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Post: #54
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Good morning all ... :hibye::drinking:

It would seem from the latest comments that you don't think the work of the two witnesses will cause much of a stir ...?

Then how do you explain the ATTENTION for their witnessing work they get from the 'big guy' ...?

Revelation 11:7 ...

7 And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them.  


I would have to think that such a INTENSE reaction and then such a PERMANENT response would mean that whatever the 'message' they were 'prophesying about' would have had to have hit some 'nerves' wouldn't it?

And then one would also have to reason who ELSE was interested in this 'conflict' ...

Revelation 11:8,9 ...

8And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sod′om and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled. 9 And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, . . .

So, not only does this 'wild beast' show an 'interest' ... but those of the people and tribes and tonges and nation(S) ...

I would also not think that the people of Noah's day 'not taking any note' didn't mean they didn't know about him and his message ... but rather that they just didn't listen ... that they didn't think that what he spoke about would happen ... it sounded to far fetched for them perhaps ... after all it hadn't rained before so what could a little water falling from the sky do to them ...??

Perhaps the prophesying of the two witnesses will be similar ... saying that the end is coming ... that what looks like a prosperous world is really on the brink of sudden destruction ...

No doubt many will laugh, mock and scorn as they did in the past ... but that doesn't mean that the message that is being spoken to them will not come to pass as we well know ...!!

However, many will say they are saying all these things now ... and of course witnesses are daily out there proclaiming or prophesying about the end of the world so what will be different about these two witnesses ...

Which again I guess I brings me to wonder about whether there is a DIFFERENCE regarding the 'preaching work' ... and a 'prophetic work' ...

Jesus told his apostles to make LEARNERS not 'prophets' ... and these 'learners' were to make other 'learners' ... for if we are busy in trying to 'learn' won't that help to keep us awake and alert and thus recognize the 'sign of the times' as it were ...?

And Brian what you said about a 'prophet' ... the scriptures doesn't seem to say that a prophet won't be 'recognized' ... but rather 'unhonored' ... just as it would appear would happen to the modern day 2 witnesses perhaps ...?

Matthew 13:57 ...

57 So they began to stumble at him. But Jesus said to them: “A prophet is not unhonored except in his home territory and in his own house.”


The Greek word for 'unhonored' according to strong's is ...

G820 ἄτιμος

atimos at'-ee-mos


From G1 (as a negative particle) and G5092; (negatively) unhonoured or (positively) dishonoured. May show a comparative degree such as less honourable: - despised, without honour, less honourable [comparative degree].


The many prophets of old fell into this category did they not ... they were valued very little by those who did NOT want to hear what they had to say ...

But the scripture also indicates that a 'prophet' WOULD have honor from SOME ... and hopefully I will be able to recognize the prophetic work of the 2 witnesses and honor them as they should be honored as a spokeman for God and Christ!

Luv as always ... just some more ponderings ... BR :sheepy:


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04-07-2011 10:06 AM
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Seraphim
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Post: #55
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

BruisedReed your right about the word being unhonored, but the problem with going to much via definitions for single words is that sometimes wider connections get missed which link in with and change the cumulative meaning of those words. The passage below clearly links their attitude of unhonor to a prophet with disbelief, and disbelief is a form of failing to recognise something for what it is, if that thing is indeed genuine which of course Jesus was. This is why your having problems with the definitions of the words teacher and prophet because they overlap in meaning depending on the circumstance. No one can learn a prophesy without being taught it, and no one can teach a prophesy without being a prophet. Its just a question of emphasis in such cases rather than dictionary definitions which are often less important that one might think, otherwise language would never evolve, but it does.


Mat 13:54 He went to his hometown and began teaching the people in their synagogue in such a way that they were amazed and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miracles?
Mat 13:55 This is the builder's son, isn't it? His mother is named Mary, isn't she? His brothers are James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas, aren't they?
Mat 13:56 And his sisters are all with us, aren't they? So where did this man get all these things?"
Mat 13:57 And they were offended by him. But Jesus told them, "A prophet is without honor only in his hometown and in his own home."
Mat 13:58 He did not perform many miracles there because of their unbelief.

04-07-2011 11:22 AM
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BruisedReed
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Post: #56
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hi Brian ... :hibye:

You are right about wording, context, and overall message ...

You said ...

No one can learn a prophesy without being taught it, and no one can teach a prophesy without being a prophet.

I agree with you here ...

In light of scriptures that I have read it would seem that the ONLY ONE who 'taught' ... 'gave' ... to men that were known to be prophets was our heavenly father wasn't it ...?

It seemed that they always received their 'knowledge' or 'message' in some DIVINE manner ... that a PARTICULAR 'message' or 'understanding' was being given by 'men' ... PROPHETS (be they men or women) FROM God himself ... and that that message was ALWAYS CORRECTLY SENT OUT AND/OR UNDERSTOOD by the prophet ...

Except maybe Daniel with whose prophesy was to be understood in another time period ... and I would think to go along with how we know our Father 'works' ... ANOTHER PROPHET would be the one to explain it to 'us' ...

Just my thoughts ... BR :sheepy: :)


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04-07-2011 11:40 AM
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Interpretum
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Post: #57
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hi BR

BruisedReed Wrote:
Did they experience earthquakes in one place after another ... was the sky darkened ... did the moon not give its light ... and did Jeus appear in heavens with his army of angels ... to name just a few events spoken of


Personally, I think there are two separate groups of things Jesus is talking about. Wars, famines and earthquakes were not SIGNS in my opinion, but simply things that "must take place".

Yes, those things did take place before the destruction of Jerusalem. For example, two earthquakes that come to mind is the one reported by Josephus in Jerusalem around 66 or 67AD... and another one in Laodicea in the early 60's AD. It was rebuilt with Caesar's help, which is perhaps why, in Revelation, they say "I am rich and have acquired riches". I'm sure historians can point out many more earthquakes than these two examples.

Now, the other set of things come AFTER the great tribulation, i.e. the sun darkening, the sign of the Son of man etc.

I'd suggest to you that Jesus was using language familiar to his primarily Jewish audience.

For example, gathering his chosen ones from the four winds? That was, in fact, a promise first made by Moses!

"Jehovah your God must also bring back your captives and show you mercy and collect you again from all the peoples where Jehovah your God has scattered you. If your dispersed people should be at the end of the heavens, from there Jehovah your God will collect you and from there he will take you." (Deut 30:3,4)

In other words, Jesus was simply applying the blessing of that promise to his followers!

And while it certainly SOUNDS like there should be sun and moon darkening, etc... this kind of language was also used at the capture of Babylon, and Egypt...

"For the very stars of the heavens and their constellations of Ke´sil will not flash forth their light; the sun will actually grow dark at its going forth, and the moon itself will not cause its light to shine... Here I am arousing against them the Medes..." (Isaiah 13:10,13)

"Howl, you people, ‘Alas for the day!’ for a day is near, yes, a day belonging to Jehovah is near. A day of clouds, an appointed time of nations it will prove to be. And a sword will certainly come into Egypt, and severe pains must occur in Ethiopia when one falls slain in Egypt and they actually take its wealth and its foundations are actually torn down..." (Ezekiel 30:2-4)

I included some of the context to show you that these are not "end times" prophecies, but were applied to the fall of Babylon by the Medes, or the fall of Egypt and Ethopia at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar... but notice the apocalyptic language used!

In other words, the inspired writers tend to DRAMATIZE the fall of mighty cities and nations, by using IDIOMS that imply drama... whole constellations, sun and moon going dark... gloomy clouds, a sword coming into a city.

They are WORD PICTURES. There is no evidence that the sun, moon or the Kesil constellation ACTUALLY went dark when Babylon fell, although they might have done... I'm suggesting the Bible writers do this for DRAMATIC effect.

Jesus was simply drawing upon imagery that the Jews were familiar with... sun and moon darkening, coming on the clouds etc.

I'm suggesting these things were accomplished by the overthrow of Jerusalem.

Remember, he told the Jewish Sanhedrin in 33AD...

"You yourself said it. Yet I say to you men, From henceforth you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

For this statement, they put him to death!

They did not LITERALLY see either... but we know that by the time of Stephen's death (again at the hands of the Sanhedrin) Jesus WAS already sitting at the right hand of power.

But Jesus said, "From henceforth"... in other words, FROM NOW ON. They were not going to literally see it, but Jesus WAS sitting at the right hand, and he DID come against Jerusalem in the clouds.

In other words, they would see it by REALIZING it.

Do you think that when their precious Temple was on fire in 70AD... that the remaining ones of that generation might have remembered Jesus' words?

Yes, they would have... and I believe it's in THAT sense that they saw him sit at the right hand of power, and come on the clouds.

I appreciate this might not be easy to accept, but when you realize this is the kind of language also used against Babylon, Egypt etc in the Old Testament, I'm simply saying that Jesus was using the same kind of language.

In short, he was foretelling the desolation of Jerusalem in the same manner as the Old Testament doomed cities... and also the gathering of the chosen ones, in the style of Moses... except the gathered ones were HIS disciples.

The problem I have with any kind of two-fold application is Jesus' words. He kind of implied it couldn't have a two-fold application, i.e.

"...for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again..." (Matt 24:21)

In other words, having a minor "great tribulation" in the 1st century, and then a MAJOR application in the future... would violate Jesus' own words here.

Second, Jesus said that...

"Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." (24:34)

I appreciate that people have attempted to find arbitrary points at which this starts from, but I think we're deluding ourselves unless we apply it to the WHOLE of Matthew 24 and the words he spoke to them on the Mount of Olives up until that point.

I know some have gotten round it by saying it doesn't apply to the 1st century AT ALL... but then that just makes Jesus plain deceptive!

I think the simplest solution (and in fitting with Isomam's "Truth Is Simple" philosophy)... is that the "great tribulation" did indeed occur ONCE... and never again... on THAT GENERATION... ALL things that Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 as occurring BY THEN... including them "seeing" Jesus at the right hand of God and coming on the clouds.

Look at the consequences of NOT accepting this simple truth... the perfect example is the Watchtower's idea of "this generation"... which changes every decade or so, and gets more ridiculous as it goes!

However, there is ONLY one generation that really mattered... the same "generation" that Peter himself taught people to flee from, just after he quoted Joel...

"And with many other words he bore thorough witness and kept exhorting them, saying: “Get saved from this crooked generation.” (Acts 2:40)

Which generation was Peter talking about? You know the answer :)

I appreciate it's a difficult struggle to wrestle the "dual fulfillment" idea from our minds... but I promise many of the prophecies will take on a newfound clarity and beautiful simplicity when (and if) you do.


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-07-2011 12:03 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #58
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

BruisedReed it all depends. The idea that prophesy is `ALWAYS CORRECTLY SENT OUT AND/OR UNDERSTOOD by the prophet`, is misleading. There are countless messianic prophesies not understood for what they were at the time of their writing. Many if not most prophesies were given in the form or visions and dreams. Here is what Job says about it:

Job 33:14 For *God speaketh once, and twice, -- and man perceiveth it not--
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
Job 33:16 Then he openeth men's ears, and sealeth their instruction,
Job 33:17 That he may withdraw man from his work, and hide pride from man.
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing away by the sword.

It says quite clearly that God often speaks to people in dreams but they don't always get it straight away. Hence the need for pride to be banished so that time is given for the message to be made clear if indeed God wants the message to be clear, which he doesn't always at the time. Samuel kept thinking that Gods voice calling out to him when he was lying down was Eli`s voice, who was the high priest at that time. In Genesis the messianic prophesy of the seeds was not understood at the time either. In Paul's day others were told to interpret the meaning of someone else's prophesy.

1Co 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

Also Pharaoh`s dream was a prophesy that he was given, and so he was the prophet in that case, but Joseph was the one who had to interpret the meaning. As a result many lives were saved from the famine.

There are many more cases like this which refute the idea that Gods prophesies are ALWAYS CORRECTLY SENT OUT AND/OR UNDERSTOOD by the prophet.

04-07-2011 12:19 PM
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gogh
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Post: #59
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

Hi InterP

Re: "The problem I have with any kind of two-fold application is Jesus' words...."

Please explain your personal interpretabulation of Jesus words as he stated:

"For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

:coffeeread: :drinking: :coffeeread:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
04-07-2011 01:00 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #60
RE: Prophets or Prophesying Today?

gogh Wrote:
Hi InterP

Re: "The problem I have with any kind of two-fold application is Jesus' words...."

Please explain your personal interpretabulation of Jesus words as he stated:

"For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

:coffeeread: :drinking: :coffeeread:



Keep in mind.


Noah's flood was the greatest tribulation that had ever occured in the world up to that point in time when Jesus Christ said those words:


Matthew 24:20-21
Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.


But hey, I really don't want to turn BruisedReeds' great thread into yet another preterist discussion.



In Christ


abe


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04-07-2011 01:24 PM
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