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Wrong Answer! Or is it?
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Londoner
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Wrong Answer! Or is it?

Hi all :)


I've wanted to discuss this at the time it came out. A Christian couple lost a High Court case to become foster parents with a local authority because they could not in good conscience, say that a homosexual lifestyle was acceptable. Read the link here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-der...e-12598896


I'm not sure whether it is right for the authority to ask such a question knowing what the bible says on the matter. Many practicing Jews and Moslems and other religions would have given the same answer.

This case alone shines a light on how in the future, organised religion will be unacceptable, and destroyed by the Beast 666 or New World Order.

Personally, being the father of three children, if one of my daughters came to me and said she thought she was gay, I would listen sympathetically to her, and ask her to give it some time, and be certain that she was absolutely sure about her sexuality.

If she was sure, then I would assure her of my love, and reaffirm to her, that I still viewed her as my daughter. Nothing would change in that regard. She would be aware that I support Jehovah's view of the matter, and there would be no need to repeat scriptural views on the subject.

If I was asked the question by Derby Council, I would confirm that I supported the bible's view, but I would give the same love and support to a homosexual child as I would any child.

The Council could object, and say they were not convinced that I could love a child of I disagreed with their sexual orientation. I would reply that children could do all sorts of things that you disagree with, or do not accept. That does not prevent you from showing love.

It's a delicate balance. What do others think?

Londoner


Ezekiel 38:23 - And I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.
04-11-2011 06:34 PM
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Willa
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

I misunderstood the context of the question and deleted my earlier reply. :blush:
I completely agree with your assessment, Londoner. Parents should, can, and do raise children with all the love, patience and understanding they can muster, regardless of 'orientation'.

However, would a fundamental Christian couple be more likely to instill guilt and shame over what appears to me to be mostly the non-choice of sexual persuasion? Would they consider it their 'mission' to make the child assume a false identity to make themselves feel pious? I guess there are a lot of questions that apply... in the interest of the child's overall well-being.

Good to see you!
:)


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04-11-2011 10:04 PM
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Resolute
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

Quote:
I've wanted to discuss this at the time it came out.


Am I experiencing deja vu? or has this news item already been discussed. Was it under noteworthy events? Someone put up this link already.

rez


When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one… – Edmund Burke
04-12-2011 01:57 PM
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Londoner
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

Willa Wrote:
I misunderstood the context of the question and deleted my earlier reply. :blush:
I completely agree with your assessment, Londoner. Parents should, can, and do raise children with all the love, patience and understanding they can muster, regardless of 'orientation'.

However, would a fundamental Christian couple be more likely to instill guilt and shame over what appears to me to be mostly the non-choice of sexual persuasion? Would they consider it their 'mission' to make the child assume a false identity to make themselves feel pious? I guess there are a lot of questions that apply... in the interest of the child's overall well-being.

Good to see you!
:)


Good points, Willa.

I think it sets a dangerous precedent. Both the judge and the council say the welfare of the child is paramount, which is true. But because the couple hold the view that they do, doesn't mean they can't be good parents.

Let's just say they disagree when it comes to same sex relationships.

Londoner


Ezekiel 38:23 - And I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.
04-13-2011 04:17 PM
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Seraphim
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

Willa Wrote:
I misunderstood the context of the question and deleted my earlier reply. :blush:
I completely agree with your assessment, Londoner. Parents should, can, and do raise children with all the love, patience and understanding they can muster, regardless of 'orientation'.

However, would a fundamental Christian couple be more likely to instill guilt and shame over what appears to me to be mostly the non-choice of sexual persuasion? Would they consider it their 'mission' to make the child assume a false identity to make themselves feel pious? I guess there are a lot of questions that apply... in the interest of the child's overall well-being.

Good to see you!
:)


Its a good point Willa. When I was young and growing up and puberty began to rear its ugly head and I began to understand where my emotions were being targeted, the last people I wanted to talk to about it was my parents. I knew my mum would just give me the standard reply based on her religion, not on the fact she was my mum. So I already knew she would not handle it well. So I didn't tell her. My dad had made comments on rare occasions about gay people which were not neutral or positive, so I didn't tell him. Even my aunt said aids was punishment from to God toward gay people, so I didn't tell her. It took a suicide attempt and a complete emotional breakdown with the loss of my job, before in desperation I told my dad. The reason I told my dad first, was because he being an atheist there was no reason he would equate loyalty to me, his son, with disloyalty to God. In fact to this day my dad is the one who gives me the sense of being loved by my parents, not my mum, yet she is the Christian out of the two of them.

Me being a baptised JW at 16 was before my breakdown and even acknowledging my sexuality to myself, my mum supported me over the objections of my dad that it was too early to make such a commitment of baptism, because he could see that if I later left for any reason I would lose all my friends who would be witnesses of course. Its ironic to me that the praise I got for getting baptised over the objections of my dad turned into a curse in many ways. I was locked in from that point on with no way out. Parents need to realise that baptism at an early age can have disastrous consequences because of sexuality and acceptance as well as many other issues. Best to get these out of the way first before baptism into the JWs or any faith whose interpretation is not favourable toward gay people. That`s if the baptism identifies them with a denomination that is, as opposed to baptism into Christ generically speaking which many denomination do not view it as, but that's another subject.

This is a difficult issue but its worth saying that kids equate love with acceptance. Its not that everything has to be accepted, but if less is accepted than accepted on what is hard-wired into the kid on such things as personality type, skin colour, hair, likes and dislikes, and sexuality ect they will not feel loved no matter how many times the parents say they love them. As with much else its what people do, not what they say that really counts and even more so with young kids looking for love and of course acceptance.

I don't know if the couple should or should not be able to adopt or whatever care it is. I do know that kids need more than words from parents. I'm not arguing for or against homosexuality either from the biblical interpretation side of life. Mind you with my mum I see a JWs , not a mother. I hope that kids everywhere don't see a pentecostal, or a catholic, or a whatever mother, but just a mother. Its like with God. Is he a JW Father or a Catholic Father or does he love and accept good people in all of them? Its a good question to ask. Whose image are we in?

04-14-2011 08:32 AM
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Beau Wetini
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

Acceptance is soooooo important.

My sister does not feel accepted by our Father for her being gay. They have come a long way, but its still there.....yet acceptance would wash that all away.

Very important and very hard to do when beliefs are involved.


Good post Brian..


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04-14-2011 10:02 AM
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smoldering wick
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

I don't know if anyone read this, from May 2007 Newsweek, but I actually bought the video (which I must say was well written and documented ... but which many JW friends objected to because Joel Engardio is also gay)

My personal feelings are that the jury is out on judgment when it comes to homosexuals. There are areas in everyone's lives that seem self-condemnatory in a Biblical sense and a human standpoint but are still left to God to judge as to the heart attitudes. In other words, no one can judge the outcome better than God.

With "Knocking," a documentary airing this week on PBS, director Joel Engardio draws back the curtain on America's million Jehovah's Witnesses.

People know of Witnesses, if they know of them at all, as the folks who refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance. They also don't celebrate birthdays or Christmas, they don't vote, they don't fight in wars and they refuse to accept blood transfusions, even in life-threatening circumstances.

They believe the end of the world is coming soon, and they bear witness to God by knocking on doors. What interests Engardio—who was raised as a Jehovah's Witness by his mother and has since left the church—is that despite their fierce separatism and fundamentalism, they use the courts to fight for their right to worship as they please and their legal battles, he argues, have made the world a better place for everyone else. In "Knocking," a young man who needs a liver transplant but refuses a transfusion is admitted to one of a growing number of hospitals that are experimenting with bloodless surgery.

Engardio's own story is compelling. Witnesses, like the Amish, are baptized as teenagers or young adults; at that moment, they accept the mantle of their faith. Engardio declined to be baptized, he says, because he thought he could do more good in the world than out of it. He is also gay. His sexual orientation didn't lead him to abandon the church, but long term, "it wouldn't have been a good fit," he says. "I broke my mother's heart. Twice." (Unlike some other fundamentalist sects, the Witnesses condone recreational sex, as long as it's within marriage; they prohibit homosexual sex.) And what of all the knocking, which so many people find so irritating? Witnesses knock on doors, he explains, in order to live as much as they can like the disciples of Jesus. That way, they will be prepared for Armageddon and for the perfect world of peace and health on Earth that will follow.


In Christ,

sw


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04-14-2011 08:10 PM
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Acts5v29
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

Beau Wetini Wrote:
Acceptance is soooooo important.

My sister does not feel accepted by our Father for her being gay. They have come a long way, but its still there.....yet acceptance would wash that all away.

Very important and very hard to do when beliefs are involved.


Good post Brian..


    I can think of plenty of homosexuals who haven't committed a tenth of the sins I've done in my life. Paul encouraged spiritual people to "make room" for a single life if they could, and I'm sure souls of each orientation have and do do that. But with the scriptural counsel against same-sex it means that our society has to provide a good environment to make abstinance happy and not lonely.

    Being the dregs of our era of independence from God hasn't helped that at-all has it, but I've no doubt that plenty - gay or not - could live delightfully in the manner Paul suggested when God's standards are active in the earth. What I mean is - I think the issue is not with the individuals who - gay or not - have a priceless love of God which He most certainly values! but with the unfriendly atmosphere that a world separated from God's oversight has brought. If some parents are able to make that contentment possible for their children, wonderful!!!

    IMHO

Acts5v29


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04-16-2011 11:00 AM
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Derek
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

Hi,
Answering the original point..it seems such busybody authorities are depriving children in dire need of loving parents out of political correctness.

Re the other point:
To be brought up a JW and also find out you are gay is enough to cause one to go through a terrible crisis. It was bad enough for me being brought up a JW with what I would describe as a normal sex drive.

Any belief system religious or political or other obsession that subverts and bypasses God given normal parental love is obscene.
As is any such systems of mind bending that breaks up families.

It is about time the political authorities stopped the charitable status of groups like JW's and took legal action against them over causing family members to be shunned. It infringes laws on religious freedom it some countries.

I would have the elders and governing body responsible put in prison and their organisational assets sequestrated.
Their claims to advance freedoms are b******t and their action is purely organisationally self-serving.

If such action was taken, boy, you bet they would have new light on shunning come out faster than a 'blue bottle' moves when it is about to be swotted.
regards
Derek



We go in faith, our own great weakness feeling,
And needing more each day Thy grace to know:
Yet from our hearts a song of triumph pealing,
“We rest on Thee, and in Thy Name we go.”
04-16-2011 03:26 PM
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Londoner
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

Seraphim Wrote:
Mind you with my mum I see a JWs , not a mother. I hope that kids everywhere don't see a pentecostal, or a catholic, or a whatever mother, but just a mother.


Hi Seraphim

Nice to see you so open and honest.

So I guest you did not see your Dad as an athiest, but as a Dad. I hope my daughters see me as a Christian Dad, not just a Jehovah's Witness. Particularly as I am a Witness who is not "exemplary", because he uses the bible in the ministry, instead of the WT, and who occasionary challenges WT teaching which I believe contradicts bible teaching in the WT Study!

I hope they see someone who loves God, but is also a Dad.

Londoner


Ezekiel 38:23 - And I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.
04-18-2011 06:43 PM
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Seraphim
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

Thanks Londoner. Its taken a while to get to this point of honestly and openness. Atheists are less judgemental than Christians in my experience. I was fortunate to have one as a parent and unfortunate to have a JW as a parent from that point of view.

Your right about me not seeing my dad as an atheist but just my dad. He could teach many a Christian a thing or two about morality. He really exemplifies those who not having the law do the things of the law. He loves me not because he was told to by some religion telling him to, or even a holy book, but because he wants to and because he really meant it. The law was already written on his heart. Somehow that's more valuable to me than if he was loving me because he was a Christian or some other faith. I think that reflects God actually, because he loves us regardless of good or bad works on our part. God does it because he wants to, not because he has to for some legal reason as the WT tends to teach.

04-18-2011 08:01 PM
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Beau Wetini
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

Amen!

Love transcends religious BS.


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04-18-2011 08:09 PM
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Acts5v29
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

Beau Wetini Wrote:
Amen!

Love transcends religious BS.


Mmmm, yes. It is dangerous and harmful - and un-Christian - to stifle genuine love.

Acts5v29


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04-19-2011 05:11 AM
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Londoner
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RE: Wrong Answer! Or is it?

Seraphim Wrote:
Thanks Londoner. Its taken a while to get to this point of honestly and openness. Atheists are less judgemental than Christians in my experience. I was fortunate to have one as a parent and unfortunate to have a JW as a parent from that point of view.



Hi Seraphim :)

I like to think that your Mum is a bad JW, rather than because she is a JW. There are good JWs, just as there are good Catholics, Pentecostals, Moslems, etc.

A lady at my workplace, who retired "early" last week, was shocked to learn that I was a Jehovah's Witness about seven years ago (She is a Pentecostal). She said that I was one of the "nice" Witnesses. I took that as a compliment.

That is why Jehovah urges genuinely good people in all religions to get out of "Babylon the Great".

Londoner


Ezekiel 38:23 - And I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.
04-20-2011 01:09 PM
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