Latest News: The Great Trubulation


Pages (11): « First [1] 2 3 4 5 Next > Last »
Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same
Author Message
Interpretum
This Space For Rent


Posts: 1,839
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #1
Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi Folks

Since a small number of people on this forum think that the "disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet" is unrelated to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, I would like to present PROOF they ARE, in fact, the same things.

(I am using the English Standard Version, for no particular reason other than consistency across the versions.)

First, we need to bear in mind there are actually THREE related accounts... Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

The Buildings Of The Temple

They all begin with the same CONTEXT. Jesus is in Jerusalem for the last time, and his disciples point out the beauty of the Temple.

"Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple." (Matt 24:1)

"And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!" (Mark 13:1)

"And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said..." (Luke 21:5)


In each account, Jesus then talks about how the Temple would be thrown down:

"But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." (Matt 24:2)

"And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." (Mark 13:2)

""As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." (Luke 21:6)


As is typical of ALL incidents in the gospel accounts, the phrasing and little details may differ in each account, but the essential CORE is the same.

Now, in all three gospels, the writer places the disciples questioning of Jesus in the precise CONTEXT of Jesus' statement about the Temple:

"As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?" (Matt 24:3)

When will "these things" be? Clearly the author of Matthew wants the reader to link "these things" with what had just happened in the account, namely Jesus' comment about the Temple being thrown down.

Mark even more explicitly links the prophecy on the Mount of Olives with the Temple, pointing out that it was still in view:

"And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?" (Mark 13:3,4)

"Opposite the temple"... when will THESE THINGS be... the link is clear between Jesus' previous statement. They wanted to know WHEN the Temple would be overthrown. Wouldn't YOU... if you were one of his disciples in 33AD? Of course you would!

Luke's account is more abrupt, and simply has his disciples ask Jesus the question straight after his comment about the Temple:

"And they asked him, "Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?" (Luke 21:7)

However, Luke makes the link even more EXPLICIT... when will THESE THINGS be... the sign when THESE THINGS are about to take place.

So their primary concern, in all three accounts was when the Temple in Jerusalem would be thrown down.

Do Not Be Led Astray

Now, all three accounts go into what must take place first, and that his disciples are not to be afraid or deceived.

"And Jesus answered them, "See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet." (Matt 24:4-6)

"And Jesus began to say to them, "See that no one leads you astray. Many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and they will lead many astray. And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. This must take place, but the end is not yet." (Mark 13:5-7)

"And he said, "See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them. And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once." (Luke 21:8,9)


The accounts are almost identical! The variations are simply typical of the variations that come with ANY gospel event recorded in more than one gospel.

The message is, don't be led astray because the end is not yet.

The Things That Must Take Place First

Now, the biggest variation is with what comes next. However, although the details differ, the essential message is the same. (To keep this post shorter, I'll just summarize).

Mathew...

- nation against nation
- famines and earthquakes
- delivered up to tribulation and death, hated by all nations
- falling away, betrayal, hatred
- false prophets, lawlessness
- he who endures to the end the one who will be saved
- gospel proclaimed throughout inhabited earth, and THEN the end will come.

Mark...

- nation against nation
- earthquakes and famines
- delivered up to synagogues and councils
- stand before governors and kings
- gospel proclaimed to all nations
- family and brotherly betrayal
- he who endures to the end the one who will be saved

Luke...

- nation against nation
- earthquakes, famines and pestilences
- terrors, great signs from heaven
- persecution, delivered to synagogues, prisons, governors and kings
- opportunity to bear witness
- delivered up by family and friends
- by endurance you will gain your lives

Clearly while the SPECIFIC details given in each account differ, the GENERAL events are essentially the same...

War, Famine, Earthquake, Persecution, Betrayal, Preaching / Bear Witness, Death.

So we already have two lines of evidence that all three accounts are talking about the same period of time...

(1) the similarity of events
(2) the CONTEXT in which this statement is made (i.e. the question they asked about WHEN the Temple would be overthrown)

Flee To The Mountains

Now, this next part is the particularly important section. Let us look at all three accounts:

"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matt 24:15,16)

"But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Mark 13:14)

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains..." (Luke 21:20,21)


Matthew and Luke refer to seeing a CRYPTIC event... the "abomination of desolation", standing "in the holy place" or "where he ought not to be". Luke talks about a LITERAL event... "Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

BOTH result in the same thing... "let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains".

I'd say this alone is strong evidence that the two things... the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place... and Jerusalem surrounded by armies... are the SAME events.

The passages continue:

"Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath." (Matt 24:17-20)

"Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that it may not happen in winter." (Mark 13:15-18)

"...and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people." (Luke 21:21-23)


So all three accounts talk about ALAS for the pregnant woman and those nursing infants.

Now, while Luke makes explicit that we're talking about the Jews ("wrath against this people"), this is also explicit in Matthew and Mark, because Jesus has already talked about people in JUDEA... and about praying it does not occur on the Sabbath... a celebration by Jews, and a time when travel around Judea would be more difficult.

The Great Tribulation

Now we get to the bit about "great tribulation". Luke has also talked about that, but calls it "great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people."

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short." (Matt 24:21,22)

"For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days." (Mark 13:19,20)

"For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:23,24)


So "great distress"... "great tribulation". The only real difference is that Luke focuses specifically on what would happen to the Jews during that period.

After this, Matthew and Mark warn against false prophets. Luke omits this detail. However, the next part is very similar...

The Coming Of The Son Of Man

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matt 24:29-31)

"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven." (Mark 13:24-27)

"And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." (Luke 21:25-28)


So here we have yet more strong evidence that all THREE accounts are referring to the same period of time.

Matthew tells us that "IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days"... the "powers of the heavens will be shaken". This is also PRECISELY why there is the fear and foreboding in Luke's account. It is CLEARLY referring to the same event, although Luke portrays it slightly differently.

As if that wasn't clear enough, all THREE accounts then have the coming of the Son of man.

The Fig Tree Illustration

Finally, all THREE accounts are followed by the fig tree illustration:

"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." (Matt 24:32-35)

"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." (Mark 13:28-31)

"And he told them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. As soon as they come out in leaf, you see for yourselves and know that the summer is already near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." (Luke 21:29-33)


It couldn't really be any clearer... Matthew's, Mark's AND Luke's account are ALL referring to the same period of time... coming upon the SAME generation that "will not pass away until all has taken place".

The account in Luke (the one which PLAINLY talks about Jerusalem being surrounded with armies) ends with these words of warning:

"But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:34-36)

We know historically the Christians heeded Jesus' words. They fled. Jerusalem DID get surrounded by encamped armies. Jerusalem DID get trampled by the Gentiles, and the Temple WAS thrown down... all within the SAME generation to which Jesus spoke in 33AD.

CONCLUSION

A few people on this forum have contended that the accounts in Matthew and Luke are talking about two different things... that the "abomination of desolation" is NOT related to "Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

My aim with this post is to show that the similarities between Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are NOT mere coincidence, or SIMILAR events at different time periods... they are ALL referring to the SAME time period.

(1) In all three accounts... the question, "When will these things be?" is asked in the CONTEXT of Jesus' statement about the Temple being thrown down.

(2) In all three accounts... Jesus warns them not to be led astray.

(3) In all three accounts... Jesus gives a description of wars, famines, persecution, betrayal, preaching / witness bearing, and the need for ENDURANCE.

(4) In all three accounts... Jesus talks about an event, which triggers those in Judea fleeing to the mountains.

(5) In all three accounts... Jesus talks about a time of great distress or tribulation... (one that does not occur AGAIN... so how COULD Matthew and Luke be referring to two different time periods, anyway??)

(6) In all three accounts... the powers of the heavens are shaken prior to the coming of the Son of man.

So while not explicitly stated, I'd say this is VERY strong evidence that the "abomination of desolation" (or "the disgusting thing that causes desolation", NWT) is the SAME event as "Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

QUESTIONS / OBJECTIONS

Why the difference between Matthew's and Luke's version?

There are three possible reasons...
(1) The gospel's intended audience
(2) Details revealed to his apostles
(3) Date of writing

Scholars generally believe Matthew was written to a Jewish audience. Matthew was continually quoting from the prophets, to demonstrate that Jesus was the Christ. So it's no surprise he placed particular emphasis on Jesus' reference to the prophecies of Daniel, of which the Jews would have been familiar.

On the other hand, Luke's audience is generally considered to be Gentiles, who were unlikely to be familiar with Daniel. Therefore, it's quite possible that, to save his Gentile readers the hassle of trying to decipher Daniel, he simply put Jesus' interpretation of the prophecy plainly in there.

Another valid explanation is that Jesus spoke about Jerusalem being surrounded with armies to his disciples, but then EXPLAINED the significance of this to his inner core of apostles. In fact, Mark 13 says that "Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately"... so it's likely he would have explained the prophecies of Daniel to them, and their relation to the fall of Jerusalem.

Thirdly, another possibility is that Luke was simply written AFTER the fall of Jerusalem. Since the prophecy had been fulfilled, the meaning was now clear and so could be put plainly into the account.

Why would the reader need discernment, if they were simply to look for Jerusalem being surrounded by armies?

They would still need discernment of the book of Daniel.

In the 1st century, most Jews were taught that many of the prophecies concerning the Temple's desolation were fulfilled in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes in the 160's BC... so would not even be LOOKING for the "abomination of desolation".

Jesus was effectively telling them that the contemporary interpretation of Daniel was WRONG. In other words, they would have to completely overhaul their own view of Daniel's prophecy!

That would take a LOT of discernment.

Besides, that statement (about needing discernment) ONLY occurs in Matthew and Mark, which directly alludes to Daniel. Since Luke does not make this statement, it's clear the discernment is needed... NOT to see Jerusalem surrounded by armies... but to interpret Daniel!

Even today, Jews do not even see their Messiah in the prophecies of Daniel... so they are clearly STILL lacking that discernment. No wonder Josephus reports that 1.1 MILLION of their number perished when Jerusalem fell.

Jerusalem wasn't a "holy place" by the time it was surrounded by armies.

Jesus said to the Jews, "your house is left to you desolate." (Matt 23:38) He then made the statement about the stones of the Temple being thrown down, as PHYSICAL evidence of the abandonment.

If we accept that Jesus was talking about THEIR House (the Temple), then we must also accept the prophecy that follows also revolves around the DESTRUCTION of that House!

This is precisely WHY they ask, "WHEN will these things be...?" These events were of direct relevance to the disciples, because they lived under the Jewish system of which the Temple was a central part.

In short, if Jesus, in saying "your house is left to you desolate" is talking about the Jewish Temple, then that is what Matthew 24 is also talking about... specifically WHEN their Temple would actually be overthrown... and therefore the "abomination of desolation" is DIRECTLY related to this.

Besides, Daniel 9:26 explicitly states that the City and/or Temple are still called a "holy place" even after Messiah's death:

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin." (9:26, NWT)

So even IF they were no longer considered holy to God, Jerusalem and/or the Temple could validly be called the "holy place" as a prophetic reference, precisely as Jesus does. Jesus was simply quoting from Daniel.

Similarly in Revelation 11:2...

"...but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months."

Regardless of what this "holy city" is, we have a symbol of part of the temple being cast out, and the HOLY city being trampled.


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-13-2011 12:50 PM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #2
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum,

Here is my reply so I don't have to keep saying it again and again:



ablebodiedman Wrote:

Interpretum,

Yes, I can see that you don't want to accept that the Olivet Prophecy has any relevance for people living at the conclusion of this system of things which seems to be very imminent in my opinion and that of many others.

Yet we are a generation of people who were not in the immediate audiance of Jesus Christ.

A generation who is indeed seeing those things that Jesus Christ said to watch for.

At the conclusion of this system of things I do expect an entire generation to pass away and a new one start.

Yes, the generation which you and I are presently living in.

The generation will pass away and a new one will start through a great tribulation.

This tribulation will be greater than any that had previously occured on the earth:

Matthew 24:20-22
for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

The greatest tribulation up to that point was the flood in Noah's day where an old generation did indeed pass away and a new generation was started.

There still has not been a tribulation of that size since Noah's day.

If you think the destruction of Jerusalem was that great tribulation then you are wrong.

Jesus Christ said that there would never be another tribulation greater than that great tribulation.

Since the first century however, there has indeed been far greater tribulations than the destruction of Jerusalem.

Yet Jesus Christ said: "there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again"

Through the olivet prophecy Jesus Christ answers the Apostles question about the conclusion of this system of things where an entire generation of people on the earth will pass away and a righteous new generation will start.

That did not happen in the first century to the generation who were the immediate audience of Jesus Christ.

In fact the generation we are now living in is more wicked than the first century generation.

I believe the generation we are now living in will pass away through a great tribulation and a righteous new generation will start.

That is in fact what the Apostles, disciples and all Christians are hoping for. The good news about the kingdom that Jesus Christ preached.

Revelation 7:14-17
And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

In the Olivet Prophecy this is the important question that Jesus Christ answered.

The generation that "sees all those things" is the generation which will pass away to be replaced by a crowd of people who survive the great tribulation that comes upon all those dwelling on the earth.

Just like the great tribulation in Noah's day.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-13-2011 01:22 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
NewTruth
Member


Posts: 1,053
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #3
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Okay, Int... the word 'broken record' comes to mind...

Math 23, Mark 13 and Luke 13... all had a fulfillment 2,000 years ago and has a major fulfillment in our day, IMO.

04-13-2011 03:01 PM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #4
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum,

I am glad you started a thread about your preterist convictions.


Interpretum Wrote:
Now, in all three gospels, the writer places the disciples questioning of Jesus in the precise CONTEXT of Jesus' statement about the Temple:

"As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "?" (Matt 24:3)


Notice the Olivet Prophecy is based on the answer to three seperate questions:

Tell us,

1/ when will these things be, and
2/ what will be the sign of your coming and
3/ of the close of the age

I will concur that question number 1 is directed to the context of Jesus Christ saying the Jerusalem Temple will be thrown down.

Question number 2 and 3 are directed through the context of Jesus Christ making them aware that he would die and be resurrected and that eventually he would return at the conclusion of the age through previous conversations. Conversations not in the context of the destruction of Jerusalems temple.

The Apostles already understood that at the end of the age the wicked would be removed and a new age of righteousness would start.

A more important question than simply the destruction of a defunct temple that was to be completely replaced by a new temple after the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So your statement here is wrong:

Quote:
When will "these things" be? Clearly the author of Matthew wants the reader to link "these things" with what had just happened in the account, namely Jesus' comment about the Temple being thrown down.





In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-13-2011 03:01 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #5
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum,

Interpretum Wrote:
Now, this next part is the particularly important section. Let us look at all three accounts:

"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matt 24:15,16)

"But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Mark 13:14)

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains..." (Luke 21:20,21)

Matthew and Mark refer to seeing a CRYPTIC event... the "abomination of desolation", standing "in the holy place" or "where he ought not to be". Luke talks about a LITERAL event... "Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

BOTH result in the same thing... "let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains".

I'd say this alone is strong evidence that the two things... the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place... and Jerusalem surrounded by armies... are the SAME events.



Yes, Matthew and Mark refer to a cryptic event that needs discernment in order to understand.

Luke refers to a literal event where absolutely no discernment is required.

That literal event was also declared by Jesus Christ to all the people in Jerusalem when he entered on the colt of an ass. It was therefore not just a private matter discussed amoungst just a few Apostles. So very good chance Matthew and Mark also knew all about it first hand from Jesus Christ.


Luke 19:41-44
And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, 42 saying: “If you, even you, had discerned in this day the things having to do with peace—but now they have been hid from your eyes. 43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, 44 and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.

So why would Matthew and Mark feel obliged to write about an event in a cryptic way when they must have also understood, as Luke did, about Jerusalem being surrounded by easily discernable armies.

The fact they left that important detail out of their Olivet prophecy strongly suggests they were aware that the disgusting thing entering a holy place was very different to Jerusalem being surrounded by easily discernable armies.

In my opinion the Watchtower Society completely pervert this scripture by suggesting the disgusting thing was the almost undermining of the temple wall or the Roman Standards which the army carried when they first surrounded Jerusalem.

None of which actually entered the Jerusalem temple until 70ad which by then would have been too late for anyone to escape.

Explaining all this however, is completely redundant when it is understood that a new and holy temple replaced the defunct temple in Jerusalem with something much better when Jesus Christ was ressurrected, many years before the destruction of Jerusalem.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-13-2011 03:46 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Interpretum
This Space For Rent


Posts: 1,839
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #6
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi Abe

Quote:
Yet we are a generation of people who were not in the immediate audiance of Jesus Christ.


Yes, I GET that you believe WE are the "this generation" Jesus was referring to.

My point is this... the "this generation" statement occurs in ALL THREE ACCOUNTS, including Matthew AND Luke, which you say are about different things.

In other words, you're asking me to believe they're referring to the SAME generation... and yet there is NO relation between "the disgusting thing that causes desolation", and "Jerusalem being surrounded by encamped armies".

My contention is that you're picking and choosing in a major way. As my post demonstrates, the evidence strongly points to the conclusion they are the same thing.

Quote:
Question number 2 and 3 are directed through the context of Jesus Christ making them aware that he would die and be resurrected and that eventually he would return at the conclusion of the age through previous conversations. Conversations not in the context of the destruction of Jerusalems temple.


I have also demonstrated to you that John the Baptist also made statements similar to Jesus, and he was very CLEARLY referring to the IMMINENCE of both the Kingdom, and the ax about to chop down the tree not producing fruit.

You know those scriptures. You quote from John the Baptist enough, yet you always ignore the actual message.

Quote:
So why would Matthew and Mark feel obliged to write about an event in a cryptic way when they must have also understood, as Luke did, about Jerusalem being surrounded by easily discernable armies.


Because Luke NOWHERE refers to the book of Daniel. Luke, as a historian, was interested in HISTORY, as the opener to his gospel indicates. Matthew was concerned about demonstrating the Messiah to the Jews.

Besides, understanding the book of Daniel DOES require discernment.

For example, you have locked up to the Jews ANY understanding of Daniel 9 as it relates to the Messiah of the 1st century, because you don't even believe the Messiah has been "cut off" yet!

Quote:
In my opinion the Watchtower Society completely pervert this scripture by suggesting the disgusting thing was the almost undermining of the temple wall or the Roman Standards which the army carried when they first surrounded Jerusalem.

None of which actually entered the Jerusalem temple until 70ad which by then would have been too late for anyone to escape.


Well, if this is what the Watchtower Society teach, they are wrong too. The "disgusting thing" was the Roman armies with their eagle ensigns worshipped as gods... and the "holy place" was Jerusalem.

Quote:
Explaining all this however, is completely redundant when it is understood that a new and holy temple replaced the defunct temple in Jerusalem with something much better when Jesus Christ was ressurrected, many years before the destruction of Jerusalem.


Now this is where I believe you contradict yourself. If this is true, then surely it's even more likely that the following scripture was fulfilled in the time of Jesus:

"There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies." (Dan 9:24)

When was the "Holy of Holies" anointed? If Jesus formed the foundation of a new temple (indeed, his body being the temple)... shouldn't that be at his baptism?

I know you read this passage in a UNIVERSAL sense (i.e. sin removed from the planet), but Jesus' death DID do all of those things...

"Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:26)

Jesus "finished off sin"... or "put sin away". Paul says basically the same thing as Daniel.

In other words, Jesus' life and death fulfilled Daniel 9, with the destruction of the city and temple being the "conclusion of the systems of things".

Oh, did you notice Paul use that phrase? Jesus HAS manifested himself "at the conclusion of the systems of things".

Quote:
The Apostles already understood that at the end of the age the wicked would be removed and a new age of righteousness would start.


I just showed you Paul's understanding of the end of the age. It was the end of the Jewish system, and the time when Jesus manifested himself to "put sin away".

You want Peter's? See Acts 2, in which he quotes the Joel passage about "the last days", in reference to the outpouring of the Spirit in 33AD, calling on the Jews to save themselves from this crooked generation.

Maybe... just maybe... your theology is NOT the same as the apostles'.

It certainly seems that way.


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-13-2011 05:12 PM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #7
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

Quote:
Yet we are a generation of people who were not in the immediate audiance of Jesus Christ.


Yes, I GET that you believe WE are the "this generation" Jesus was referring to.

My point is this... the "this generation" statement occurs in ALL THREE ACCOUNTS, including Matthew AND Luke, which you say are about different things.

In other words, you're asking me to believe they're referring to the SAME generation... and yet there is NO relation between "the disgusting thing that causes desolation", and "Jerusalem being surrounded by encamped armies".

My contention is that you're picking and choosing in a major way. As my post demonstrates, the evidence strongly points to the conclusion they are the same thing.



Interpretum,

I am not picking and choosing.

Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote a testimony to what Jesus Christ said in the Olivet Prophecy.

I have to conclude that Jesus Christ spoke about BOTH the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies AND the disgusting thing entering a holy place.

Luke omitted the "disgusting thing", Matthew and Mark omitted the "surrounding by armies".

None of them are interpreting what he said.

They are reporting what he said.

They all conclude with the "generation that sees all those things".

They don't all include everything Jesus Christ said in the Olivet Prophecy.

No one in Jerusalem saw a disgusting thing enter a holy place because:

1/ The temple in Jerusalem was no longer a holy place having been replaced by the temple Jesus Christ inaugurated with his shed blood.

2/ Nothing disgusting entered the temple until 70ce when it would have been too late for anyone to flee anyway.

Guess I will just have to keep repeating myself until you might understand.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-13-2011 05:55 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #8
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

Quote:
Question number 2 and 3 are directed through the context of Jesus Christ making them aware that he would die and be resurrected and that eventually he would return at the conclusion of the age through previous conversations. Conversations not in the context of the destruction of Jerusalems temple.


I have also demonstrated to you that John the Baptist also made statements similar to Jesus, and he was very CLEARLY referring to the IMMINENCE of both the Kingdom, and the ax about to chop down the tree not producing fruit.

You know those scriptures. You quote from John the Baptist enough, yet you always ignore the actual message.


Interpretum,

Yep, Jesus Christ IS that Kingdom.

At the conclusion of this system I do expect that the ax is about to chop down every tree not producing fruit.

These are Christian trees and not Jewish trees.

Jesus Christ himself explained that to his Apostles using a similar illustration long before the Olivet Prophecy:

Matthew 13:36-43
Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


John the Baptist further explained this in regard to Jesus Christs baptism:

Matthew 3:11-12
but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”


It IS Christians who have to be concerned with this not Jews.

As far as I know the Jews in Jerusalem when it was destroyed were not baptised.



In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-13-2011 06:10 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #9
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

Quote:
So why would Matthew and Mark feel obliged to write about an event in a cryptic way when they must have also understood, as Luke did, about Jerusalem being surrounded by easily discernable armies.


Because Luke NOWHERE refers to the book of Daniel. Luke, as a historian, was interested in HISTORY, as the opener to his gospel indicates. Matthew was concerned about demonstrating the Messiah to the Jews.

Besides, understanding the book of Daniel DOES require discernment.


Interpretum,

Luke reported what Jesus Christ said in regard to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies in the Olivet Prophecy.

I therefore have to conclude that Jesus Christ said nothing about needing special discernment from Daniel in order to discern those armies.

Which makes sense because all a person would need to do is look over the wall.

They would not have to look inside the temple for the armies!


Interpretum Wrote:
For example, you have locked up to the Jews ANY understanding of Daniel 9 as it relates to the Messiah of the 1st century, because you don't even believe the Messiah has been "cut off" yet!


Interpretum,

I do believe that Jesus Christ has been "cut off" in more recent times.

I do not believe the "cutting off" has anything to do with Jesus Christs crucifiction in the first century.

I believe Jesus Christ has been "cut off" because the "constant sacrifice" has been removed and replaced by a "disgusting thing".

Which constant sacrifice?

This one:

Hebrews 10:12
But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God,


Yes, that "constant sacrifice" has everything to do with the new holy temple (holy place) Jesus Christ established after his ressurrection and inaugurated with his shed blood.


It also does indeed require discernment based on the things that the Prophet Daniel wrote.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-13-2011 06:27 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
e-magine
Disciple of Newness


Posts: 2,488
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #10
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

ITPT,
Jesus wanted his disciples to know what was in store for Jerusalem and the Temple, so that they could save themselves and others. All three accounts are about that, but, Jesus also wanted those living in the last days to be aware of the final events for the same reason!. He left us a definite clue that indicates a dual fulfillment.
...."not a stone will be left upon a stone"
There are still stones upon stones left today, you can't overlook that!
...and the reason they wrote in cryptic form, and the reader needs discernment,, is obvious! They were living under the close eye of the Romans, who would interpret more candid letters as subversive! They needed to couch their words.


avatar:
Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
04-13-2011 06:44 PM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #11
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

Quote:
Explaining all this however, is completely redundant when it is understood that a new and holy temple replaced the defunct temple in Jerusalem with something much better when Jesus Christ was ressurrected, many years before the destruction of Jerusalem.


Now this is where I believe you contradict yourself. If this is true, then surely it's even more likely that the following scripture was fulfilled in the time of Jesus:

"There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies." (Dan 9:24)

When was the "Holy of Holies" anointed? If Jesus formed the foundation of a new temple (indeed, his body being the temple)... shouldn't that be at his baptism?

I know you read this passage in a UNIVERSAL sense (i.e. sin removed from the planet), but Jesus' death DID do all of those things...

"Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:26)

Jesus "finished off sin"... or "put sin away". Paul says basically the same thing as Daniel.

In other words, Jesus' life and death fulfilled Daniel 9, with the destruction of the city and temple being the "conclusion of the systems of things".

Oh, did you notice Paul use that phrase? Jesus HAS manifested himself "at the conclusion of the systems of things".

Quote:
The Apostles already understood that at the end of the age the wicked would be removed and a new age of righteousness would start.


I just showed you Paul's understanding of the end of the age. It was the end of the Jewish system, and the time when Jesus manifested himself to "put sin away".

You want Peter's? See Acts 2, in which he quotes the Joel passage about "the last days", in reference to the outpouring of the Spirit in 33AD, calling on the Jews to save themselves from this crooked generation.

Maybe... just maybe... your theology is NOT the same as the apostles'.

It certainly seems that way.



Interpretum,

Take a look around at what is happening in the world.

Do you really think the transgressions have terminated, and sin is finished, and that we now have righteousness for times indefinite?

Jesus Christ however, said this would happen at the conclusion of this system of things:


Matthew 13:39-43
The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


"His Kingdom" is Christianity not Judaism.

If Jews want to become Christians they first have to accept Jesus Christ the king.

When Jerusalem was destroyed it was not "His Kingdom" being judged at the conclusion of the system of things. You would then have to believe that the Jews in Jerusalem at that time were Christian (his kingdom)

The judgement of Christianity is still a future and very imminent event.

I believe that the anointing of the holy of holies will be one of the last things to occur.

The temple should then exist in a pristine condition allowing a very intimate approach to God which I expect would be very similar to the way Adams initial relationship existed.

An approach to God without the need for a mediator.

Revelation 21:22-27
And I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is]. 23 And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb. 24 And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. 26 And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life [will].


No more disgusting things (man of lawlessness) will then be able to enter it!


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-13-2011 06:57 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
isomam
In Spite of Many and Much


Posts: 2,239
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #12
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

NewTruth Wrote:
Okay, Int... the word 'broken record' comes to mind... Math 23, Mark 13 and Luke 13... all had a fulfillment 2,000 years ago and has a major fulfillment in our day, IMO.


ya think ??? :whistle:

:silly grin: ... :really, really silly grin:


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
04-13-2011 08:40 PM
Find all posts by this user
Interpretum
This Space For Rent


Posts: 1,839
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #13
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi Abe

Quote:
1/ The temple in Jerusalem was no longer a holy place having been replaced by the temple Jesus Christ inaugurated with his shed blood.

2/ Nothing disgusting entered the temple until 70ce when it would have been too late for anyone to flee anyway.


Well, clearly despite all the evidence to the contrary, you continue to stick to these two FALLACIES.

(1) I have pointed out that Daniel 9 CLEARLY talks about the city and holy place AFTER Messiah's death... but of course, you have your own completely unique spin on Daniel 9 that completely disqualifies Jesus Christ from being the Messiah.

(2) Actually, Cestius DID enter the city and attack the Temple in 66AD. Perhaps this is why so many Christians choose to believe their fantasy versions, because they don't know their history.

Read Wars Of The Jews, Book 2, Chapter 19, Sections 4-7. Since you won't, I'll summarize it for you.

Cestius pitched his camp upon Mount Scopus near Jerusalem. The seditious fled into the Temple. The Romans then attacked the wall of Jerusalem for five days, and then took many of his men and archers and "attempted to break into the temple at the northern quarter of it... but the first rank of Romans rested their shields upon the wall... so the soldiers undermined the wall, without being themselves hurt, and got all things ready for setting fire to the gate of the temple."

In short, they were ready to destroy the Temple in 66AD. The disgusting thing HAD stood where it ought not to, in 66AD. Only Cestius' unexpected withdrawal prevented it.

Quote:
Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote a testimony to what Jesus Christ said in the Olivet Prophecy.

I have to conclude that Jesus Christ spoke about BOTH the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies AND the disgusting thing entering a holy place.


But you don't have to conclude they are DIFFERENT events. You CHOOSE to do so, because of your "unique" interpretations.

That is my point. The entire weight of evidence is in favour of the fact that the "abomination of desolation" event is the SAME as the "Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies" event.

Now with that PROOF from Josephus that the Roman armies DID reach up to the Temple in 66AD... will you reconsider?

I'm thinking probably not, because it's more important for you to cling to your elaborate theology regarding Jehovah's Witnesses... rather than seek TRUTH.

Quote:
I do believe that Jesus Christ has been "cut off" in more recent times.

I do not believe the "cutting off" has anything to do with Jesus Christs crucifiction in the first century.

I believe Jesus Christ has been "cut off" because the "constant sacrifice" has been removed and replaced by a "disgusting thing".


I know... and to be blunt with you, THIS is what I am criticizing you for. You are worse than the Watchtower Society, who apply many prophecies to THEMSELVES.

You have taken important prophecies, and applied them to the Watchtower Society!

For example, most Christians demonstrate Christ is the Messiah by showing people Daniel 9, and how Messiah's appearance and death was timed.

You have thrown that evidence out!

So in that regard... what about Isaiah 53 and the suffering servant? That talks about many of the same things as Daniel 9...

"But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors."

"Because of restraint and of judgment he was taken away; and who will concern himself even with [the details of] his generation? For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke."

Shall we now say this ALSO doesn't apply to the Messiah of 33AD?

No, Abe... the "transgression" has NOTHING to do with the Watchtower Society. This is the message of both Daniel 9, and Isaiah 53.

Quote:
Do you really think the transgressions have terminated, and sin is finished, and that we now have righteousness for times indefinite?

Jesus Christ however, said this would happen at the conclusion of this system of things


OK then, I have a riddle for you.

Will there be sin during the 1,000 years?

If NO... then why would anybody need to be thrown into the "lake of fire" at the end of it?

If YES... then by your own reasoning, the "conclusion of this system of things" can only come at the END of the 1,000 years!

Indeed, IF there is any kind of dual application of Matthew 13, I'd suggest to you it's much more likely to be fulfilled at the end of the 1,000 years, when the wicked are cast into the "lake of fire" and all sin and rebellion is TRULY ended... don't you agree?


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-14-2011 11:06 AM
Find all posts by this user
Interpretum
This Space For Rent


Posts: 1,839
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #14
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi isomam

isomam Wrote:
ya think ??? :whistle:


Thanks for your contribution to this thread :)

Actually, I started this thread NOT to refute the belief in a "dual fulfillment", but because Abe teaches that the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" of Matthew 24 is NOT the same as "Jerusalem being surrounded by encamped armies" of Luke 21.

My post demonstrates that all lines of evidence point to them being the same thing.

Should we waste time refuting falsehoods? I don't know. Personally, I wanted to, in case anyone is swayed by Abe's twisted theology which teaches that these things were fulfilled in certain activities of the Watchtower Society.

Do you think that interpretation should be left unchallenged?

As for refuting the idea of the Olivet Prophecy having a "dual interpretation", well as I said, that was NOT the purpose of this post.

But I guess we can apply the "stuck record" label to anyone who disagrees with our own beliefs, and repeats them.

The number of times I see posts wanting to discuss the "modern day" interpretation of Matthew 24... "stuck records" indeed!

Now a question for you, if I may...

Since Jesus quoted from Daniel 11:31 in his Olivet Prophecy, at what point does the prophecy in Daniel 11 go from talking about the "king of the north" and "king of the Negev" originating from the Greek empire... to talking about OUR DAY? Just how does that happen?

How does Daniel 9 go from having the Messiah being cut off in 33AD... to then having the City and Temple desolated in OUR DAY... while completely BYPASSING the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple?

At least Abe has a consistent (although thoroughly wrong) explanation for Daniel 9... he ignores the Messiah's 1st century appearance and death altogether! (Of course, that also means Gabriel completely ignored Daniel's prayer about the state of the Jews and Jerusalem at the time.)

What is YOUR take on the fact that after the Messiah is cut off... the city and temple are desolated? Is there a teeny tiny possibility these things could have been fulfilled by... umm... Jesus Christ being put to death, and then Jerusalem and the Temple being destroyed by the Romans, in the 7 year Jewish War, during the half of which the daily sacrifice ceased?


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-14-2011 11:33 AM
Find all posts by this user
Interpretum
This Space For Rent


Posts: 1,839
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #15
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi e-magine

e-magine Wrote:
Jesus wanted his disciples to know what was in store for Jerusalem and the Temple, so that they could save themselves and others. All three accounts are about that, but, Jesus also wanted those living in the last days to be aware of the final events for the same reason!. He left us a definite clue that indicates a dual fulfillment.
...."not a stone will be left upon a stone"
There are still stones upon stones left today, you can't overlook that!


OK, let us say this is true. That means those stones HAVE to be thrown down, otherwise Jesus was a false prophet.

Yes, you could say they would be thrown down metaphorically... but that's not going to convince most people, since Jesus' words came MOSTLY true :)

(Remember, most people mock JWs because they say Jesus DID come in 1914... but invisibly! i.e. a cop-out.)

So then, if those stones are still destined to come down, doesn't that mean the prophecies are destined to be fulfilled upon PHYSICAL Jerusalem after all?

So why the need to look for a symbolic, metaphorical "Judea" and "Jerusalem"? IF there is a dual application (which I still seriously doubt), isn't it more likely it would be fulfilled in the same way?

Indeed, Zechariah 14 seems to support this notion...

"And you people will certainly flee to the valley of my mountains; because the valley of [the] mountains will reach all the way to Azel. And you will have to flee, just as you fled because of the [earth]quake in the days of Uzziah the king of Judah. And Jehovah my God will certainly come, all the holy ones being with him." (14:5)

If Uzziah's earthquake was LITERAL (and Josephus describes it as a literal earthquake), then since they have to flee JUST LIKE they fled in the days of Uzziah, it seems more likely that any dual application of Matthew 24 is ALSO literal.

Besides, think about the 1st century application. Only a small number of Christians actually had to flee - namely, the ones in Judea. So why change that for the so-called "dual" application? It would make more sense if it were AGAIN conditional on a geographical location.

This seems to be the message of Zechariah 14, at any rate.

Quote:
...and the reason they wrote in cryptic form, and the reader needs discernment,, is obvious! They were living under the close eye of the Romans, who would interpret more candid letters as subversive! They needed to couch their words.


Precisely! Which adds further weight to the argument that "the disgusting thing that causes desolation" WAS the Roman armies.

That was a very subversive message.. and even BLASPHEMOUS to the Roman armies, who worshipped their own eagle standards. This is a great point, which I hope Abe will take on board.


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-14-2011 11:46 AM
Find all posts by this user
Pages (11): « First [1] 2 3 4 5 Next > Last »

View a Printable Version
Send this Thread to a Friend
Subscribe to this Thread | Add Thread to Favorites

Forum Jump: