Latest News: The Great Trubulation


Pages (11): « First < Previous 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 Next > Last »
Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same
Author Message
Acts5v29
- - -


Posts: 560
Group: Registered
Joined: Oct 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #16
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Folks

Since a small number of people on this forum think that the "disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet" is unrelated to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, I would like to present PROOF they ARE, in fact, the same things.


Hello Interpretum :hibye:

    I believe that the Gospel accounts refer to both as well - I wonder why you didn't mention the other scripture in Luke when Jesus was being led away for execution (or were you keeping that for later?):


      26 Now as they led him away, they laid hold of Simon, a certain native of Cy·re´ne, coming from the country, and they placed the torture stake upon him to bear it behind Jesus. 27. There was a great multitude of the people following him and also women who kept beating themselves in grief and bewailing him. 28. Jesus turned to the women and said:

        ⇒ Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for me. On the contrary, weep for yourselves and for YOUR children; 29. because, look! days are coming in which people will say:

          Happy are the barren women, and the wombs that did not give birth and the breasts that did not nurse!’

        30. Then they will start to say to the mountains:

          ≺ ‘Fall over us!’

        and to the hills:

          ≺ ‘Cover us over!’

        31. Because if they do these things when the tree is moist, what will occur when it is withered?

                --- Luke 23:26-31


    That seems to back up Matthew 24:15-22, as if Jesus was giving these people along the wayside - non-apostles - some of the same warning, which they would take as a warning for themselves and their families - like e-Magine says.

    If everything in Matthew, Mark and Luke's accounts were fulfilled in the 1st century, then I would have expected the apostle John to have mentioned the appearance of the Son of Man in the skies in his letters - or if not him, then some of the contemporary Christians or ante-nicean "fathers", and that seems to be absent. But I think you're right that part of it cleary must apply to the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century - seems just about everyone else does too.


Christian love as always,

Acts5v29


www.worshipJehovah.org
taking the fear out of worship

04-14-2011 11:50 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #17
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

Quote:
1/ The temple in Jerusalem was no longer a holy place having been replaced by the temple Jesus Christ inaugurated with his shed blood.

2/ Nothing disgusting entered the temple until 70ce when it would have been too late for anyone to flee anyway.


Well, clearly despite all the evidence to the contrary, you continue to stick to these two FALLACIES.

(1) I have pointed out that Daniel 9 CLEARLY talks about the city and holy place AFTER Messiah's death... but of course, you have your own completely unique spin on Daniel 9 that completely disqualifies Jesus Christ from being the Messiah.

(2) Actually, Cestius DID enter the city and attack the Temple in 66AD. Perhaps this is why so many Christians choose to believe their fantasy versions, because they don't know their history.

Read Wars Of The Jews, Book 2, Chapter 19, Sections 4-7. Since you won't, I'll summarize it for you.

Cestius pitched his camp upon Mount Scopus near Jerusalem. The seditious fled into the Temple. The Romans then attacked the wall of Jerusalem for five days, and then took many of his men and archers and "attempted to break into the temple at the northern quarter of it... but the first rank of Romans rested their shields upon the wall... so the soldiers undermined the wall, without being themselves hurt, and got all things ready for setting fire to the gate of the temple."

In short, they were ready to destroy the Temple in 66AD. The disgusting thing HAD stood where it ought not to, in 66AD. Only Cestius' unexpected withdrawal prevented it.



Interpretum,

Nothing I have said disqualifies Jesus Christ from being the Messiah.

What you said above is a fallacy so let me correct your statement:

Interpretum Wrote:
I have pointed out that Daniel 9 CLEARLY talks about the city and holy place AFTER Messiah's death


Daniel 9 CLEARLY talks about the city and holy place AFTER Messiah's "cut off with nothing for himself".

You are falsely assuming that "cut off with nothing for himself" means his death.

It is also NOT CLEAR which city and what holy place he is referring to.

You assume that it is the geographic Jerusalem and the stone temple.

The Apostles however, were completely aware that a new city and temple were under construction and they were intimately involved in rebuilding it:

Acts 15:14-18
Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.

Your next often repeated objection is that Daniels people are Jews and therefore it must be the stone temple in Jerusalem.

This IS indeed a fallacy on your part.

If the prophecy itself describes the Messiah then the people being referred to in the prophecy are Christians.

Daniels people are Christians.

When Daniel is resurrected will he be a Jew or a Christian?

Daniel is indeed one of God's people so he will therefore become a Christian when resurrected.

In regard to Cestius and his attack upon Jerusalem THANK YOU VERY MUCH for confirming that NOTHING entered the temple!


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-14-2011 12:25 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #18
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

Quote:
Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote a testimony to what Jesus Christ said in the Olivet Prophecy.

I have to conclude that Jesus Christ spoke about BOTH the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies AND the disgusting thing entering a holy place.


But you don't have to conclude they are DIFFERENT events. You CHOOSE to do so, because of your "unique" interpretations.

That is my point. The entire weight of evidence is in favour of the fact that the "abomination of desolation" event is the SAME as the "Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies" event.

Now with that PROOF from Josephus that the Roman armies DID reach up to the Temple in 66AD... will you reconsider?

I'm thinking probably not, because it's more important for you to cling to your elaborate theology regarding Jehovah's Witnesses... rather than seek TRUTH.


Interpretum,

I weighed all the evidence you gave me and consistently proved it does not hold any value.

I did the same with the Watchtowers interpretation and found that it also had no value. In fact it seemed deliberately misleading.

The proof from Josephus confirms my initial statement that NOTHING entered the temple.

It would not matter anyway because nothing holy remained there after Jesus Christs resurrection and inauguration of a much better temple which completely replaced the now redundant geographic temple.

After Jesus Christs resurrection there was nothing holy in Jerusalem to profane.

The entire weight of evidence SHOWS the "abomination of desolation" event HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH the "Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies" event.

Despite this overwhelming evidence you still CHOOSE to believe that it does.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-14-2011 12:49 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #19
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

Quote:
I do believe that Jesus Christ has been "cut off" in more recent times.

I do not believe the "cutting off" has anything to do with Jesus Christs crucifiction in the first century.

I believe Jesus Christ has been "cut off" because the "constant sacrifice" has been removed and replaced by a "disgusting thing".


I know... and to be blunt with you, THIS is what I am criticizing you for. You are worse than the Watchtower Society, who apply many prophecies to THEMSELVES.

You have taken important prophecies, and applied them to the Watchtower Society!


To be blunt with you, I have used a great deal of historical evidence which proves the Wathtower Society themselves have "cut off" Jesus Christ and obtained vereration for themselves which should only belong to him.


Try attending the memorial this weekend at a kingdom hall and they will tell you NOT TO PARTAKE!

You really think I am worse than them?


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-14-2011 01:12 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #20
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

Quote:
Do you really think the transgressions have terminated, and sin is finished, and that we now have righteousness for times indefinite?

Jesus Christ however, said this would happen at the conclusion of this system of things


OK then, I have a riddle for you.

Will there be sin during the 1,000 years?

If NO... then why would anybody need to be thrown into the "lake of fire" at the end of it?

If YES... then by your own reasoning, the "conclusion of this system of things" can only come at the END of the 1,000 years!

Indeed, IF there is any kind of dual application of Matthew 13, I'd suggest to you it's much more likely to be fulfilled at the end of the 1,000 years, when the wicked are cast into the "lake of fire" and all sin and rebellion is TRULY ended... don't you agree?


Interpretum,

Thank you for seeing that sin and transgression has not yet been terminated.

The 70 week prophecy is still in effect!

Your preterist conviction however, hangs on the 70 week prophecy ending with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Now you realise that sin and transgression has not yet been terminated will you please go back and reconsider exactly which city and temple it is that will be desolated at the end of those 70 weeks.

A still future event.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-14-2011 01:25 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
isomam
In Spite of Many and Much


Posts: 2,239
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #21
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

hey there, inter-guy :hibye: (mine in blue).

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi isomam

isomam Wrote:
ya think ??? :whistle:


Thanks for your contribution to this thread :)

no problem-o. :silly grin ... again:

Actually, I started this thread NOT to refute the belief in a "dual fulfillment", but because Abe teaches that the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" of Matthew 24 is NOT the same as "Jerusalem being surrounded by encamped armies" of Luke 21.

My post demonstrates that all lines of evidence point to them being the same thing.

Should we waste time refuting falsehoods? I don't know. Personally, I wanted to, in case anyone is swayed by Abe's twisted theology which teaches that these things were fulfilled in certain activities of the Watchtower Society.

Do you think that interpretation should be left unchallenged?

well, i spent months (years?) with our friend and brother abe, essentially doing the same thing. then i figured out that he is made of teflon. everything slides right off; nothing sticks. :wink:

As for refuting the idea of the Olivet Prophecy having a "dual interpretation", well as I said, that was NOT the purpose of this post.

But I guess we can apply the "stuck record" label to anyone who disagrees with our own beliefs, and repeats them.

The number of times I see posts wanting to discuss the "modern day" interpretation of Matthew 24... "stuck records" indeed!

wow, are we 'touchy' today, or what?

Now a question for you, if I may...

Since Jesus quoted from Daniel 11:31 in his Olivet Prophecy, at what point does the prophecy in Daniel 11 go from talking about the "king of the north" and "king of the Negev" originating from the Greek empire... to talking about OUR DAY? Just how does that happen?

How does Daniel 9 go from having the Messiah being cut off in 33AD... to then having the City and Temple desolated in OUR DAY... while completely BYPASSING the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple?


all i know is christ jesus, and him crucified.

At least Abe has a consistent (although thoroughly wrong) explanation for Daniel 9... he ignores the Messiah's 1st century appearance and death altogether! (Of course, that also means Gabriel completely ignored Daniel's prayer about the state of the Jews and Jerusalem at the time.)

What is YOUR take on the fact that after the Messiah is cut off... the city and temple are desolated? Is there a teeny tiny possibility these things could have been fulfilled by... umm... Jesus Christ being put to death, and then Jerusalem and the Temple being destroyed by the Romans, in the 7 year Jewish War, during the half of which the daily sacrifice ceased?

please see my answer, immediately above. :whistle:

:peace, baby:


hi, interpretum.

i feel compelled to bring this back up again -- with a red face. :redface: i owe you an apology for seeming dismissive toward you and this discussion. it was an ill-timed, ill-conceived attempt at humor. mea culpa. i am truly sorry. i do honestly believe that in this discussion you and abe and e-magine (and others) are putting forth illuminating arguments for all to evaluate -- with "discernment" -- in connection with this oft-discussed and very thorny subject. while i don't personally subscribe to your ppp (partial preterist perspective), i can't imagine anyone arguing it more thoroughly or effectively than you do.

again, asking your forgiveness.

your friend and brother, ... iso...


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
04-14-2011 02:07 PM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #22
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Should we waste time refuting falsehoods? I don't know. Personally, I wanted to, in case anyone is swayed by Abe's twisted theology which teaches that these things were fulfilled in certain activities of the Watchtower Society.

Do you think that interpretation should be left unchallenged?


Interpretum,

No, I do not think it is a waste of time refuting falsehoods.

That is why I am glad you started this thread.

Post #4

Ablebodiedman Wrote:
Interpretum,

I am glad you started a thread about your preterist convictions.



A single place where anyone can come to see and measure the arguments for themselves.

I certainly hope that many thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses will visit this thread and discover how deliberately misleading the Watchtowers own interpretation of the modern day "disgusting thing" really is!

Yes, the United Nations is the modern day "disgusting thing" and yet they have themselves become intimately involved in supporting the United Nations through their efforts to obtain NGO status for their organization.

Further to that they now have plenty of testimony in the above discussion to measure and determine wether the disgusting thing had anything at all to do with an ancient fulfillment.

I hope they will see that the Eagle Ensigns and Roman Standards theory is completely absurd.

This thread should prove to be a great resource for anyone searching for the real answers.

If anyone else has some scriptural or historical proofs which show the entire preterist idea surrounding the Olivet Prophecy is deliberately misleading then come forward and share them.

Please don't just tell us you do or don't believe it or that you do or don't agree.

Show us why!


Repeating the same old and easily overcome arguments gets really tiresome so please carefully read the above discussion to see if the preterist argument has already been overturned.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-14-2011 03:11 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
e-magine
Disciple of Newness


Posts: 2,488
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #23
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi ITPT again!
I'm giving you a lot of latitude here, because you seem to have more scriptural knowledge then I do, and so does abe!
I agree that Danial 9 & 11 point to the 1st cent, and that the WTS is not a key player in last day fulfillment, only one player.
...You gave me a thought!
..What if our understanding is clouded by the way we look at TIME, vs. the way YHWH does. Supposing there is not a dual fulfillment, but one, that covers a space of our Earth time of over 2000 years? If so, then yes, Jerusalem the city will still have all its stones knocked down. The Christians living there today (part of Gods Kingdom) will still be attacked by the discusting thing; in today's world, radical Islam.
(did not ancient Rome provide the opportunity for the takeover of Jerusalem by radical Islamic forces?)
..This could cause good hearted Muslims, Jews and Christians to unite togeather against a common enemy as they "flee" the physical city, as well as the modern Worldwide symbolic "city">>>>>
Babylon-the-Great!.
Jews and Muslims, as well as "religionized Christians",,could be forced to realize that we are all united as part of Christ's familly. This could happen near the end of this "Great Tribulation" that has been on going since 33CE. Could 2000 Earth years really be a "short time" as recorded by Mathew? I think YES from God's view.
...Are there any scriptural texts that would refute this idea of a singular but long term fulfillment?


avatar:
Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
04-14-2011 03:21 PM
Find all posts by this user
e-magine
Disciple of Newness


Posts: 2,488
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #24
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

....I really am seeing an amalgam of preterist views with a modern fulfillment. Surely what happened in 66 to 70 CE is significant!
If we are correct that the UN, or part of its "front men" are the modern "discusting thing", that will stand in the heart of

"God's Kingdom" (the Temple)

then could radical Islam be implicated? Its has been shown by some, that Al Qaeda is actually constructed by the CIA to act as an agitator to world peace and be an excuse to wage wars to further the UN agenda towards "One world Govt. and Religion"


avatar:
Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
04-14-2011 03:42 PM
Find all posts by this user
gogh
Participator


Posts: 3,239
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #25
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

re: "...Are there any scriptural texts that would refute this idea of a singular but long term fulfillment?"

1 Corinthians 11:25...

"He did the same with the cup after the supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. As often as you drink from it, keep doing this in memory of me."
For as often as you eat this bread and drink from this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."

:coffeeread:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
04-14-2011 03:45 PM
Find all posts by this user
e-magine
Disciple of Newness


Posts: 2,488
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #26
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

...More-
Ancient Jerusalem was more then the Jewish capital where the Jewish temple was. The city was also known by the fact that it was inhabited by 3 great groups of people; Jews, Samaritans (brothers of Jews), and Gentiles (Greeks, Romans etc)...Modern day Babylon-the-great, like its counter part, will be known by its diverse religions.
...what great modern city today is inhabited and dominated by the 3 greatest religions in the World?

Jerusalem! Jew, Islam (the Samaritans), and Christian (the Gentiles)

.
..What better place to finish the "standing where it ought not" to be other then modern day Jerusalem? Does the UN have any interest in whats happening there? Duh!


avatar:
Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
04-14-2011 04:06 PM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #27
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

gogh Wrote:
re: "...Are there any scriptural texts that would refute this idea of a singular but long term fulfillment?"

1 Corinthians 11:25...

"He did the same with the cup after the supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. As often as you drink from it, keep doing this in memory of me."
For as often as you eat this bread and drink from this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."

:coffeeread:


gogh,

During the last days this will become a very individual event:

Revelation 3:19-22
“‘All those for whom I have affection I reprove and discipline. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his [house] and take the evening meal with him and he with me. 21 To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’”


I will come into his [house] and take the evening meal with him and he with me.

Jesus Christ did not say this:

I will come into their [house] and take the evening meal with them and they with me.

So why has his memorial changed from a congregational to an individual event?

I believe it is because their house (temple) has been broken into.

It is the ONE THING that Jesus Christ insisted we should know:

Matthew 24:43
“But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into.

The householder does not realise that it is his own temple that has been broken into.

Why?

Because he thinks the temple being referred to was the brick and mortar temple destroyed in 70ce.

The householder thinks his temple will not be broken into and profaned:

Revelation 3:16-17
Because you say: “I am rich and have acquired riches and do not need anything at all,” but you do not know you are miserable and pitiable and poor and blind and naked,


That is why the "evening meal" has become a solitary affair.

I do not think it would be a good idea for Jesus Christ to find us "eating and drinking" with the drunkards in the temple they have profaned.


Isaiah 66:5-6
Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.” 6 There is a sound of uproar out of the city, a sound out of the temple! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying what is deserved to his enemies.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-14-2011 04:16 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Interpretum
This Space For Rent


Posts: 1,839
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #28
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi Acts5v29

First off I have to say I like your posting style! It's a shame those smilies aren't working yet :)

You make a great point about Jesus' warning to the women of Jerusalem. I didn't quote it simply because the main controversy is usually over Matthew 24.

Quote:
If everything in Matthew, Mark and Luke's accounts were fulfilled in the 1st century, then I would have expected the apostle John to have mentioned the appearance of the Son of Man in the skies in his letters - or if not him, then some of the contemporary Christians or ante-nicean "fathers", and that seems to be absent. But I think you're right that part of it cleary must apply to the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century - seems just about everyone else does too.


This is a valid question, and is probably the number #1 reason why people find it difficult to believe it was fulfilled in the 1st century... where is the record of Jesus "coming in the clouds"?

To answer, let us go back to what he said to the women of Jerusalem. Did they LITERALLY call for the hills to cover them?

Probably not. It was a METAPHORICAL expression. It meant they would go into hiding. This they did... just after the Romans withdrew from Jerusalem, many of the rulers and priests went into hiding. He was also alluding to Hosea 10:8, which uses the same metaphor.

When Jesus talks about them seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds, he was doing the same thing. I believe he was speaking metaphorically. He was also alluding to scripture... in this case, Daniel 7... in which a son of man comes with the clouds of heavens to the Ancient of Days, and he is given rulership.

Remember, this is PRECISELY why the Sanhedrin condemned him to death!

"But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Then the high priest tore his robes, and said, "He has uttered blasphemy. Why do we still need witnesses? You have now heard his blasphemy.
What is your judgment?" They answered, "He deserves death." (Matt 26:63-66)


The Sanhedrin understood this as a THEOLOGICAL expression. He was claiming to be the Son of man in Daniel 7 who would receive the kingdom from God!

So I don't think Jesus was teaching that he would LITERALLY come on the clouds... but that the ones who pierced him (the Jews and particularly the Sanhedrin of 33AD) would, in the destruction of their system over which they were rulers... finally recognize that Jesus was, in fact, the Christ.

Indeed, if you look at Matthew 24:29-31... Jesus is actually alluding to several prophetic passages of scripture..

- sun, moon and stars being darkened (Joel 3)
- tribes of the land beating themselves in lamentation (Zechariah 12)
- the son of man coming on the clouds (Daniel 7)
- gathering his chosen ones from the four winds (Deuteronomy 30)

He is demonstrating... theologically and metaphorically... that the destruction of Jerusalem was the fulfillment of the prophets...

... just as Luke's gospel indicates... "for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written." (Luke 21:22)

I appreciate that we are used to expecting LITERAL signs... and indeed, YHWH did provide several literal signs prior to the fall of Jerusalem, including chariots skipping about in the clouds and surrounding cities.

However, I'm suggesting to you that Jesus' statement to the Sanhedrin was THEOLOGICAL and METAPHORICAL. He was saying to them, that they WOULD recognize him as the Messiah... but not in a good way.

In Matthew 24, all the tribes of the land would... by 70AD... realize (too late) that Jesus was the Messiah, when he came against their city and temple.

If we recognize that Jesus' final statement before the olive tree illustration was THEOLOGICAL... a demonstration that the prophecies were to be fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem (as Luke tells us)... then we can see how it WAS fulfilled in 70, even in Jesus' "coming with the clouds".


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-14-2011 06:08 PM
Find all posts by this user
Interpretum
This Space For Rent


Posts: 1,839
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #29
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
You are falsely assuming that "cut off with nothing for himself" means his death.


True... but coupled with Isaiah 53, it's pretty clear that the Messiah was to be "severed from the land of the living", and have to die for the sins of the people. It's not a BIG stretch at all.

Also, Daniel 11 backs up this interpretation. "And as regards the arms of the flood, they will be flooded over on account of him, and they will be broken; as will also the Leader of the covenant." (Dan 11:22)

This was what happened in the rule of Tiberius Caesar (son of Augustus), as the prophecy indicates. You can put whatever spin on this prophecy you like, but Augustus was the one who sent out the census (11:20), and it was under the reign of his paranoid son (Tiberius) that both Jesus (the Leader of the covenant) and the head of the Pretorian Guard ("the little nation") was executed.

Quote:
It is also NOT CLEAR which city and what holy place he is referring to.


It's PERFECTLY clear from the context. Of course, you pick n' mix scriptures from all over the place... but if you read the context of the prophecy, it's perfectly clear which city and holy place is being discussed. Daniel prayed about it.

Quote:
You assume that it is the geographic Jerusalem and the stone temple.

The Apostles however, were completely aware that a new city and temple were under construction and they were intimately involved in rebuilding it:

Acts 15:14-18
Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.


Again, you miss the PURPOSE of this quote. They quoted it to demonstrate that Gentiles were to play a part in God's plan.

Indeed, if you were to read the CONTEXT of the original prophecy, you would see it foretold first of all the house of Israel being sent throughout the nations... and THEN the restoration of David's booth.

This had ALREADY happened when the passage of Amos was quoted. That's why Jerusalem and the Temple were available again.. the booth of David had been restored. The apostles simply pointed out that Gentiles would also be involved in this.

Quote:
Your next often repeated objection is that Daniels people are Jews and therefore it must be the stone temple in Jerusalem.

This IS indeed a fallacy on your part.

If the prophecy itself describes the Messiah then the people being referred to in the prophecy are Christians.

Daniels people are Christians.


Point is, you still completely ignore the context. Daniel prays about the Jews and their 70 year exile. He confesses that "WE have sinned... WE have not listened... but to US... the shame of face... to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to all those of Israel, those nearby and those far away in all the lands to which you dispersed them because of their unfaithfulness with which they acted against you." (Dan 9:4-7)

Daniel clearly identifies his people. Now, of course once Messiah came, Daniel would have affiliated himself with the Christians... but guess what, Abe... the first Christians were... <drum roll>... Jews!

So your point doesn't negate the correct interpretation of Daniel... that Messiah died for the sins of the people, and then another governor came and desolated their temple and city.

Of course the prophecy has relevance for Christians, because it helps them IDENTIFY the true Messiah! But the prophecy was given to a Jew... Daniel.

Quote:
When Daniel is resurrected will he be a Jew or a Christian?

Daniel is indeed one of God's people so he will therefore become a Christian when resurrected.


No, he will be a Jew when resurrected. When he learns about his Messiah and puts faith in him, then he will be a Christian... a Jewish Christian!

Quote:
In regard to Cestius and his attack upon Jerusalem THANK YOU VERY MUCH for confirming that NOTHING entered the temple!


They (the Roman armies, aka the "disgusting thing that is causing desolation") were still standing in a "holy place" in 66AD.

The "holy place" consisted of more than just the Temple. For example, it had courtyards (as indicated by Rev 11:1,2). You don't think the WALLS were considered part of the holy place?


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-14-2011 06:52 PM
Find all posts by this user
Interpretum
This Space For Rent


Posts: 1,839
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #30
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Thank you for seeing that sin and transgression has not yet been terminated.


No, you missed my point altogether. ALL of the things Gabriel said...

- terminate the transgression
- finish off sin
- make atonement for error
- bring in righteousness for times indefinite
- imprint a seal upon vision and prophet
- anoint the Holy of Holies

...was fulfilled IN CHRIST. When you read the apostles, this is the way they view things.

For example, read Hebrews 9:26 AGAIN... the author says essentially the same thing as Daniel:

Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself."

Jesus PUT SIN AWAY. It doesn't matter that people still sin. The only REQUIREMENT in reference to sin in Daniel 9 was to "finish off sin".

Jesus did that. He "put sin away"... or "finish[ed] off sin".

It doesn't say in Daniel 9 that this prophecy was about eliminating sin from the WORLD. In fact, the prophecy ends with a "city" and "holy place" being trampled. That's hardly eliminating sin from the world, is it?

My point is that Jesus Christ's death did all of these things, in the same sense that the author of Hebrews viewed them.


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-14-2011 07:14 PM
Find all posts by this user
Pages (11): « First < Previous 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 Next > Last »

View a Printable Version
Send this Thread to a Friend
Subscribe to this Thread | Add Thread to Favorites

Forum Jump: