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Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same
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e-magine
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Post: #31
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

ITPT,
Nice explanation of Jesus coming on the clouds! I can except that.
Also, you noted that the walls around the Temple were part of the temple "stones" that would be thrown down. when?


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Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
04-14-2011 07:29 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #32
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
You are falsely assuming that "cut off with nothing for himself" means his death.


True... but coupled with Isaiah 53, it's pretty clear that the Messiah was to be "severed from the land of the living", and have to die for the sins of the people. It's not a BIG stretch at all.

Also, Daniel 11 backs up this interpretation. "And as regards the arms of the flood, they will be flooded over on account of him, and they will be broken; as will also the Leader of the covenant." (Dan 11:22)

This was what happened in the rule of Tiberius Caesar (son of Augustus), as the prophecy indicates. You can put whatever spin on this prophecy you like, but Augustus was the one who sent out the census (11:20), and it was under the reign of his paranoid son (Tiberius) that both Jesus (the Leader of the covenant) and the head of the Pretorian Guard ("the little nation") was executed.



Interpretum,

Yes, it does not require Daniels 70 week prophecy to discover that Jesus Christ was to suffer and die as you pointed out through Isaiah Chapter 53.

I am glad that you recognise that Jesus Christ is the leader of the covenant. It was in fact his sacrificial death that put the new covenant into place and established the new Christian temple. See Hebrews 10.

Yes, I understand you cannot see that it is the Christian temple that will be desolated at the end of the 70 weeks rather than the stone temple in Jerusalem.

The Prophet Daniel however, was previously given a vision where he was made to understand that the temple which Jesus Christ established with his own sacrificial death is indeed the one that would be thrown down.

8 Daniel 8:11-12
And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 And an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant [feature], because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success.

The desolations to occur in the final part of the days will occur because the Christian Temple has been profaned as explained by the Angel Gabriel:

Daniel 8:19
And he went on to say: “Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of [the] end.


The important question in regard to this that every Christian should be asking themselves is what constant sacrifice is taken away which has something to to with the Christian Temple that Jesus Christ established.

The constant sacrifice that established the Christian temple is this one:

Hebrews 10:12
But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually


As with the vision in Daniel Ch8 The 70 weeks prophecy in CH9 also talks about a desolation happening in the final part of the denunciation:

Daniel 9:27
And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”

So who the one that causes desolation through profaning the Christian temple that Jesus Christ established with his death?

The Apostle Paul explained who that would be;

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction


In Christ

abe


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04-14-2011 08:24 PM
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COMankind
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Post: #33
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

I have a hard time with the "greater fulfillment" angle myself. There are a lot of intrinsic perspectives that influence it:

1) We WANT this to apply to us. We dont want it to be just a historical lesson that we learn from. Therefore anything 'deeper' we see in it is influenced by our desire. When the GB says Luke's account of the FDS is actually prophecy about our time, well, a similar motivation is behind it.

2) This is what every church teaches. It is SOP. Greater fulfillment means the carrot can stay dangled.

Jesus said this was going to happen in their time. He said what would happen, and it did. It's actually quite astonishing. What more should we expect? So much of this is unseen by human eyes, yet Jesus told them the 'hints' that would be evident there in Jerusalem.

Gogh: I can appreciate what you're seeing in 1 Cor 11, but really, all that says to me is 'keep up this tradition until I return (which by the way, like I said before, will happen before some of you at this table die...)"


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04-14-2011 10:21 PM
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e-magine
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Post: #34
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

abe, Thank you for pointing out that Danial makes reference to first cent. events, but that it is mainly about what occurs in the final part of the denunciation. That is amazing!
Daniel 8:11-12
And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 And an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant [feature], because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success.
Pilot, "what is truth"

I am seeing this not as a dual fulfillment, but a continuous one that is nor finished yet.


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ablebodiedman
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Post: #35
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

e-magine Wrote:
abe, Thank you for pointing out that Danial makes reference to first cent. events, but that it is mainly about what occurs in the final part of the denunciation. That is amazing!
Daniel 8:11-12
And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 And an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant [feature], because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success.
Pilot, "what is truth"

I am seeing this not as a dual fulfillment, but a continuous one that is nor finished yet.


e-magine,

Yes!

Now that you can see what is being revealed to Daniel is all about the Christian Temple and the constant sacrifice, take the next step and make the connection where the constant sacrifice being taken away coincides with the putting in place of a disgusting thing and denouncing the holy covenant in Daniel Chapter 11:

Daniel 11:30-31
“And he will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant. 31 And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature].
“And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.



IT IS ALL ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN TEMPLE AND THE NEW HOLY COVENANT.


Matthew 24:15
“Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,)

Do you see why discernment is required through the Prophet Daniel to understand this?


Now spend some time thinking about why the removal of Jesus Christs constant sacrifice from the Christian temple is an abomination, a truly disgusting thing!


Then spend some time thinking about how Jesus Christ feels about this and what kind of consequence will be the result:


Daniel 9:27
“And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”


You should then understand why people need to flee!


Now!


In Christ

abe


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04-15-2011 12:16 AM
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gogh
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Post: #36
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi COMankind

Re: "Gogh: I can appreciate what you're seeing in 1 Cor 11, but really, all that says to me is 'keep up this tradition until I return (which by the way, like I said before, will happen before some of you at this table die...)"

Yet, what I also see, is, continuation of listening to Jesus command ("Keep doing this")...up to this day/our time;....not a ceasing of "doing this" as implied by Paul's use of the word "until". Where does scripture or history, indicate Christians no longer listened to Jesus command after Jesus, so called arrival after /at 70ce? It seems history shows followers of our Lord Jesus continue to present, listen to his voice/command how to remember him, thus, as Paul stated: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink from this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."

.02,

gogh


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04-15-2011 12:35 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #37
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Here is another connection between Daniel and what the Apostle Paul said:

Daniel 11:30-31
“And he will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant.

If you understand that this is the new holy covenant then what does leaving the new holy covenant mean?


An apostasy!


2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first


In Christ

abe


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Post: #38
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

gogh Wrote:
Hi COMankind

Re: "Gogh: I can appreciate what you're seeing in 1 Cor 11, but really, all that says to me is 'keep up this tradition until I return (which by the way, like I said before, will happen before some of you at this table die...)"

Yet, what I also see, is, continuation of listening to Jesus command ("Keep doing this")...up to this day/our time;....not a ceasing of "doing this" as implied by Paul's use of the word "until". Where does scripture or history, indicate Christians no longer listened to Jesus command after Jesus, so called arrival after /at 70ce? It seems history shows followers of our Lord Jesus continue to present, listen to his voice/command how to remember him, thus, as Paul stated: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink from this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."

.02,

gogh



gogh,

Thats brilliant!


In Christ

abe


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Post: #39
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
I am glad that you recognise that Jesus Christ is the leader of the covenant. It was in fact his sacrificial death that put the new covenant into place and established the new Christian temple. See Hebrews 10.


Yes, Jesus' death brought about a NEW covenant. However, it was first and foremost made with Israel and Judah!

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second; for he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! There are days coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in [the] day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant, so that I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah.”

Notice how Paul concludes his reasoning here:

"In his saying “a new [covenant]” he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away." (8:13)

NEAR TO vanishing away. It had not yet vanished away, because not all Jews had yet accepted this new covenant.

Quote:
The desolations to occur in the final part of the days will occur because the Christian Temple has been profaned as explained by the Angel Gabriel:

Daniel 8:19
And he went on to say: “Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of [the] end.


Again, you view "the final part of the days" as the end of OUR system of things, but I am saying that the prophecy was talking about the end of the JEWISH system.

Tell me, how can the prophecy talk about the kings of Media and Persia, and then the king of Greece... and then suddenly jump forward over 2,000 years?

Of course they can in your world, but I'll prefer to stick with Gabriel's interpretation, which is...

"The ram that you saw possessing the two horns [stands for] the kings of Media and Persia. And the hairy he-goat [stands for] the king of Greece; and as for the great horn that was between its eyes, it [stands for] the first king. And that one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from [his] nation that will stand up, but not with his power. And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance..."

Note Gabriel explains what "final part" he's on about... the final part of THEIR kingdom... namely, the kingdoms that emerged out of Alexander the Great's Greek empire!

What emerged during that period? Why... the Roman empire! The Romans are the ones that come out of one of the four winds during that period, growing greater towards the Decoration (Pompeii taking Jerusalem in 63BC), and eventually taking away the constant feature and sanctuary.

Daniel 9 is simply an extension of this prophecy. Both prophecies focus on the Roman empire... during which the Messiah was cut off, the "army" of heaven was trampled upon, and his temple was taken away.

Indeed, the prophecy ALSO overlaps with Daniel 11.

In Daniel 8, we're told... "And in his heart he will put on great airs, and during a freedom from care he will bring many to ruin."

This "freedom from care" is also to be found in Daniel 11:21-24, in reference to the reigns of Tiberius and Caligula!

"And there must stand up in his position one who is to be despised, and they will certainly not set upon him the dignity of [the] kingdom; and he will actually come in during a freedom from care and take hold of [the] kingdom by means of smoothness. And as regards the arms of the flood, they will be flooded over on account of him, and they will be broken; as will also the Leader of [the] covenant. And because of their allying themselves with him he will carry on deception and actually come up and become mighty by means of a little nation. During freedom from care, even into the fatness of the jurisdictional district he will enter in and actually do what his fathers and the fathers of his fathers have not done. Plunder and spoil and goods he will scatter among them; and against fortified places he will scheme out his schemes, but only until a time."

Augustus had established the famous PAX ROMANA... the Roman Peace. This continued throughout the reigns of Tiberius (the "one who is to be despised") and Caligula (who would "come up and become mighty by means of a little nation"... the Praetorian Guard made him emperor.)

IN other words, Daniel 8:23-25 is talking about the SAME TIME PERIOD as Daniel 11:21-24... the reigns of Tiberius and Caligula being the period of the "freedom from care" for the Roman empire, which led to increasing persecution of Jews and then Christians, culminating in the king who did his own will... Nero... having Christians burned in his Vatican gardens, and the start of the Jewish War.

Remember, Gabriel himself established the TIME when these things were to be fulfilled... in the time of THOSE KINGS who had emerged from the breaking up of Alexander's kingdom into four - NOT "our day"!

Quote:
The Apostle Paul explained who that would be;

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction


Well, Paul was quoting from or alluding to Daniel 11. While Gabriel does NOT interpret the prophecy for us, I've shown you how the reigns of Augustus, Tiberius and Caligula are in there...

...so it's no surprise that Nero is to be found, just verses later. It was NERO who commenced the Jewish War.

In fact, technically speaking it was the Jewish rebels who started it... and the prophecy even foretells that! "And those who are acting wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words."

I know you will say, "We're talking about the NEW covenant here"... but I'm saying NO... the people of the OLD covenant still existed by this time.

At the time of Paul writing 2 Thessalonians, it's likely he did not know the identity of the "man of lawlessness"... but he knew the prophecy must be fulfilled.

With hindsight, we know that the Jews DID fall into apostasy. In fact, the Jewish rebels actually made the Temple their stronghold! Then Nero did everything that was foretold of the "son of destruction"... he burned Christians (11:33-35), he believed he was god (11:36,37), he warred with the land of the Decoration (11:40-43), he went forth to devote many to DESTRUCTION (probably why Paul labelled him the "son of destruction") (11:44)... and then he committed suicide (11:45) just as his general Vespasian was in the mountains ready to take Jerusalem.

Paul did not know how things would turn out... which is why he could say the Lord's day would not come UNTIL those things took place.

Those things foretold in Daniel 11 were fulfilled by 68AD. Daniel 12 concerns the standing up of Michael the prince of Israel and the time of trouble, during which the people found in the book... Jewish Christians... escaped... and met the Lord in the air, after the final trampling of 70-73AD.


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Post: #40
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi Gogh

gogh Wrote:
re: "...Are there any scriptural texts that would refute this idea of a singular but long term fulfillment?"

1 Corinthians 11:25...

"He did the same with the cup after the supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. As often as you drink from it, keep doing this in memory of me."
For as often as you eat this bread and drink from this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."


The last part isn't Jesus' words, but Paul's. As you know, Paul taught in the same letter that "not all shall fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed". (15:51)

Of course he was speaking to his contemporary audience, because earlier in that chapter, he was talking about those who were witnesses of Jesus: "After that he appeared to upward of five hundred brothers at one time, the most of whom remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep [in death]". (15:6)

This is the context for his statement about not ALL falling asleep. Paul believed that not all of his Corinthian audience would die... but some of them would still be alive by the start of the Lord's day.

He reinforced this belief, in his letter to the Thessalonians:

"For this is what we tell you by [the Lord's] word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]."

Note that the NWT inserts "Jehovah's word" here, but the footnote acknowledges it's the LORD'S word... i.e. Jesus Christ's word (probably from the Olivet Prophecy).

Paul believed that some of his Thessalonian and Corinthian audience would still be alive by the time the Lord comes.

So Paul's own statement, "For as often as you eat this bread and drink from this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes" reflected his theological view at the time of writing 1 Corinthians, that the Lord would return within his lifetime, and the lifetime of some of his Corinthian audience.

Now, I believe (based on scriptural evidence) that they DID meet the Lord in the air. However, WE today are not of that generation, so we are still awaiting the Lord, which is why it's appropriate for us to commemorate Jesus' death via the Lord's evening meal.


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04-15-2011 09:39 AM
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Post: #41
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum! Brother!

    Your posts are quite compelling!

    Interpretum Wrote:
    Again, you view "the final part of the days" as the end of OUR system of things, but I am saying that the prophecy was talking about the end of the JEWISH system.


    They certainly read like that, don't they. The apostle's "conclusion of this era" question to Jesus could have meant the era in which the traditionalist Jews disbelieved Jesus (30CE to ???) - Jesus had just said:

      37. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her, - how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. 38. Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU.39. For I say to YOU: YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say:

        Blessed is he who comes in Jehovah’s Name!
                --- Matthew 23:37-39

    indicating that there would come a time when Jerusalem under the Jews would say just that very thing about Jesus - when would that be...

    Or it could mean what you say, and Paul's comments in all his letters make sense in that context -

    Interpretum Wrote:
    He reinforced this belief, in his letter to the Thessalonians:

    "For this is what we tell you by [the Lord's] word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]."

    ...

    Now, I believe (based on scriptural evidence) that they DID meet the Lord in the air. However, WE today are not of that generation, so we are still awaiting the Lord, which is why it's appropriate for us to commemorate Jesus' death via the Lord's evening meal.


    A brief question: would the above apply to the apostle John who lived beyond 70CE to write his letters and Revelation? And how would Paul's word affect the continuance of Christian congregations on earth? (actually 2 questions)

    To be honest, whether we agree with you or not, your dislocating the discussion from WatchTower thinking and making the thread look simply at the scriptures for a while has been priceless! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    Christian love,

:siskiss:

Acts5v29


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Post: #42
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

Quote:
The desolations to occur in the final part of the days will occur because the Christian Temple has been profaned as explained by the Angel Gabriel:

Daniel 8:19
And he went on to say: “Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of [the] end.


Again, you view "the final part of the days" as the end of OUR system of things, but I am saying that the prophecy was talking about the end of the JEWISH system.


Interpretum,

The point you missed is that at the end of Daniels vision it is the temple established by Jesus Christ that is thrown down, the Christian Temple.

It is the small horn that does this!

The vision has nothing to do with the Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem.

Guess I will just have to repeat again what Daniel sees at the end of his vision:

Daniel 8:9-12
And out of one of them there came forth another horn, a small one, and it kept getting very much greater toward the south and toward the sunrising and toward the Decoration. 10 And it kept getting greater all the way to the army of the heavens, so that it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it went trampling them down. 11 And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 And an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant [feature], because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success.


The Christian Temple being thrown down is the final part of Daniels vision.

That is what will happen in "the end".


Daniel 8:18-19
And he went on to say: “Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of [the] end.


You are attempting to replace the Christian temple being thrown down in the end with the Jerusalem Temple being thrown down in the end.

You cannot escape this with your meaningless arguments.


In Christ

abe


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Post: #43
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi Acts5v29

Acts5v29 Wrote:
indicating that there would come a time when Jerusalem under the Jews would say just that very thing about Jesus - when would that be...


Yes, I think there WILL come a time when Jerusalem under the Jews will finally recognize Jesus as their King.

As you point out, Jesus' implied it. He also implied it by saying that Jerusalem would be trampled by the Gentiles UNTIL a certain time. In other words, Jerusalem wasn't going to be desolated eternally (unlike ancient cities like Ninevah and Babylon).

I think this was a "sacred secret" or "mystery" that Paul also knew, and talked about in Romans 9-11. As Paul taught, the Jews were ENEMIES with reference to the good news, but still BELOVED with reference to their choosing, for the sake of their forefathers.

Paul apparently wrote this around 56AD... already a few decades after Christ's death, so it was clear that Jesus' statements about their house being abandoned had not changed God's view of them... they were still beloved to God.

Finally, there are several Old Testament passages which imply Jerusalem will yet again have significance to God... especially Zechariah 14, in which Jehovah will step down onto the Mount of Olives, and the whole land around Jerusalem being changed!

While I suppose it could be metaphorical, it reads quite literally to me... even going into unpleasant detail about the attack upon Jerusalem... "the houses will be pillaged and the women themselves will be raped... half of the city must go forth into the exile". (Zech 14:2)

So the riddle that harmonizes ALL of these scriptures is this...

Jerusalem fell and the surviving Jews were sent into captivity (66-73AD)... but God preserved the Jews with the intention of eventually restoring Jerusalem and eventually reconciling them to Him... not for their sakes, but for God's own glory.

As to WHEN... ah, well if we knew that :)

I honestly don't know when, but it's interesting that two of the prerequisites have already happened... (1) Israel has been restored as an independent nation [since 1948], and (2) Jerusalem is now in Israel's control [since 1967].

Quote:
[color=#000080]A brief question: would the above apply to the apostle John who lived beyond 70CE to write his letters and Revelation? And how would Paul's word affect the continuance of Christian congregations on earth? (actually 2 questions)


Great questions.

In regard to John, I believe he was singled out as a "special case", as implied by John himself at the end of his own gospel account:

[color=#800080]"Accordingly, when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, what will this [man do]?” Jesus said to him: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.” In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?” (John 21:21-23)

The disciples misunderstood Jesus' words to mean that John would never die... but Jesus said, "If it is my will for him to remain until I come..."

John was the ONLY apostle who, according to tradition, survived past 73AD! This also adds validity to the idea that Jesus came and gathered his chosen ones by 73AD at the latest. In other words, John DID remain until Jesus came!

However, presumably Jesus didn't gather John (and perhaps others) to ensure some continuation of the Christian message. I think Jesus' priority in the gathering was the Jewish Christians, who formed the 144,000 firstfruits to God through Christ.

Incidentally, I think it more likely Revelation was written shortly BEFORE the fall of Jerusalem... probably around 67AD. Without going into too much detail here, a couple of lines of evidence for this would be...

- the Balaam issue (Rev 2,3) that Jesus tackled was also the SAME Balaam issue tackled by Peter and Jude, also writing in the 60's

- Paul (in Acts 20) was worried that after his going away, wolves would appear in the Ephesian congregation and draw men away. This did not require DECADES... it would happen after Paul went away. The problem was reflected in Jesus' counsel to the Ephesians (Rev 2).

- the trouble from the Jews (Rev 2,3). In the late 60's, the Jews were at the height of their power, having rebelled from Rome, they were in a prime position to cause trouble for Christians. By the 90's, they had been decimated numerically, and humiliated politically... not in a position to do much against Christians!

- the account within the "seven seals" bears many similarities to Jesus' prophecy on the Mount of Olives, including calling for the mountains to fall upon them, four winds, murdered holy ones under the altar (Matt 23), two groups emerging from the great tribulation, etc. This suggests the "seven seals" were about the fall of Jerusalem.

- In Revelation 11, there are TWO temples. One is earthly, and still standing at the start, although the holy city is then trampled by the Gentiles. The second Temple only opens AFTER this. This implies the physical Temple is still standing, at the beginning of the chapter. It bears a lot of similarity to Luke 21:20-24 which is about Jerusalem.

This would explain why, in Revelation 10, John is told to eat a scroll and prophecy AGAIN about peoples, nations and many kings. John had participated in the preaching PRIOR to the fall of Jerusalem, and now he would carry on AFTER it.

So while I think that Jesus gathered his chosen ones by 73AD at the end of the final 7 years (Daniel 9:27; Daniel 12), he left some (including John) to continue the message of Christ.

Of course, that begs the question of WHO was taken. I think the "144,000" Jewish Christians were ALL taken (with the exception of John)... since they ALL appear on Mount Zion in chapter 14.

It's possible they were the ONLY ones taken, which would still match up with what Paul said to the Thessalonians and Corinthians, since some of them would be Jewish. (They preached only to Jews among the Gentiles first.)

If we think about it, the phrase "chosen ones" was used EXCLUSIVELY to refer to Jews, until Christ came. However, when Jesus said, "And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds"... he may have been ALSO referring to his JEWISH brothers.

Indeed, this is how Jesus used the word "chosen" in his illustration of the marriage feast (Matt 22:1-14).

The JEWS were first invited to the marriage feast, but they begged off, some even beating and killing the king's slaves (Christians)... so the king burned their city (Jerusalem) and went elsewhere (Gentiles) to fill up the marriage feast.

Many invited (Gentiles), but few chosen (Jews who accepted Christ).

This is reflected in Revelation 7. Few chosen (144,000 Jewish Christians), many invited (Gentile Christians).


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04-15-2011 12:54 PM
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isomam
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Post: #44
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

hi interpretum. please go back and see post #21 on page 2 of this thread.

i just made that post a few minutes ago; but, somehow, it went into the thread as though it had been made yesterday. :dontknow:


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

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Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

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04-15-2011 01:09 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #45
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Hi Abe

Nice try, but scripture disagrees with you.

"Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts." (Malachi 3:1 RSV)

This was fulfilled in John the Baptist and Jesus Christ, as Jesus himself testifies:

"This [John the Baptist] is he of whom it is written, 'Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.' (Matt 11:10)

Was Jesus wrong?

Also John the Baptist himself said...

"You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him." (John 3:28)

Also at John's birth...

"And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways..." (Luke 1:76)

John the Baptist was the "messenger to prepare the way before me", and Jesus Christ was the "messenger of the covenant".

He DID suddenly appear at his Temple:

"And Jesus entered the temple of God and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer'; but you make it a den of robbers." (Matt 21:12,13)

By what authority did he have to do this? It's because HE was the messenger of the covenant... it was therefore also HIS TEMPLE!

Indeed, if I am to believe YOU, Jesus' actions here were really POINTLESS, because you're saying this Temple was to be rendered useless in a matter of a few months anyway, so Jesus might as well have not bothered clearing out those money changers!

Jehovah's Temple was also Jesus' Temple, because Jesus was the "messenger of the covenant".

Will you now also reject the testimony of Jesus Christ and John the Baptist?

Also, why did Jehovah leave the Temple standing for a further 36 years after it ceased to be holy?

And why did the Jewish Christians continue to obey the Law of Moses? "You behold, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews; and they are all zealous for the Law." (Acts 21:20)

Why did the Jewish Christians (including Paul himself) continue to go up to the festivals in Jerusalem and at the Temple... if they ceased to be holy in 33AD?

The evidence points to the fact that they ceased to be holy ONLY when Jehovah had them destroyed, in 70AD.


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-15-2011 01:24 PM
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