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Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same
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knightlockX
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Post: #151
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Here is a very old thread you posted years ago in regard to the 70 weeks prophecy. Bangalore brought it to the forums attention.


It's always interesting to read old threads :)

I wrote that before I looked into the HEBREW of Daniel 9, which implied that most Bible translators have made some serious errors in translating this prophecy... I suspect to prop up their own Futurist views.

I wrote a blog post on this subject, because it comes up from time to time...
http://propheticword.blog.com/daniel/dan...-70-weeks/

...but the bottom line is, Daniel 9 is the one place in which they completely rewrite the meaning of the Hebrew word "GABAR". Almost everywhere else it is used to imply mastery over someone or something. Here (and EXCLUSIVELY here) they use it to imply someone will make a TREATY or COVENANT with someone else.

This is the origin of the Futurist view that the antichrist will make a treaty with the Jews for 7 years, and then break it after 3.5 years.

It is based on (what appears to be) a deliberate mistranslation!

I urge you to look at the original Hebrew at http://www.scripture4all.org/ ... and then use http://www.blueletterbible.org/ to look up the Hebrew uses of the word GABAR.

You'll find that in just about NO OTHER PLACE in the Bible is GABAR used in the sense that translators give it in Daniel 9.

Why do they cover it up? Because it then becomes PATENTLY CLEAR the prophecy was fulfilled by 73AD, when the Romans PREVAILED or GAINED MASTERY over the covenant people, the Jews during the final "week".

Since most translators are, I suspect, Futurists... the last thing they want is for their flocks to believe that.


I knew about this word years ago and the Hebrew and Greek versions of the Bible are exactly why I came to those same conclusions. The problem that Ablebodiedman has is that he is using an english translation of the orginal languages to come to conclusions.

The argument would be nowhere near as difficult to prove provided you could show him through the Hebrew. But as he has clearly shown he will not listen nor accept another's view no matter how much evidence you give him.

But you are correct most translators are futurists and so translate the Bible to reflect this view. It is one of the reasons I really prefer to read the Scriptures from the orginal languages (to the exent that I can currently) as they take on a whole new meaning.

A good example of this is in Matthew chapter 24:7 where it says

For nation shall rise against
nation, and kingdom against
kingdom: and there shall be
famines, and pestilences, and
earthquakes, in divers places.

Everyone here is familiar with that verse. What most do NOT realize is that the word for nation should be translated ethnic group and that it is SINGULAR. In addition the word for Kingdom (Basileia) in greek is not an acutal kingdom but the ruler or royal power of that kingdom.

Below is the link where it shows the def of Basileia.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/vi...number=932

royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah
of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom


A literal translation in english would be...

For an ethnic group upon an ethnic group and a ruler upon a ruler.

If you look at the Greek in this verse it uses the word ethnos (the english word "ethnic" is related to it.) Futher neither time the word appears has the def article in front of it which means that you have to use an a. In addition, both words are not ethnoi which would indicate many ethnic groups but ethnos one ethnic group. After all, the translator could have (and should have used) at least used the word NATIONS with an S if both words were plural. They did not and the reason is that they COULD NOT. It had to be singluar as the Greek word is singular in both cases.

So in fact the verse is saying from the Greek that a single ruler would rise against another single ruler and their national groups would join them in the fight.

When I discovered this, I was very puzzled why it was translated the way it was in most Bibles until it dawned on me that it was the Churches, wanting Matthew 24:7 to mean something totally different than what it actually does, translate it this way. They reap the benefits by gaining billions of dollars each year. If Christ already returned then they cannot use it to make all of their flocks tremble in fear.

Not that it would matter as nowhere does it state that salvation is dependant on the return of Christ nor does it state anywhere in the Bible that this salvation would not continue after he returned. Jesus is a high priest FOREVER.

The reason that the BIble is translated this way is that if it were EVER to be translated the way that it should be then a whole bunch of verses would change and the very face of Christianty would right along with it. Yes Jesus would have still died been buried and rose from the dead. But a lot of dogma would be completely wiped out.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
04-24-2011 10:23 AM
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Acts5v29
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Post: #152
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
To give you an example of how close I believe we are to Har-Magedon, I think at least the first FIVE of these have already been fulfilled!

I guess my point is, I don't see God here saving us from our folly, but instead punishing mankind for its bloodshed,


Hello Interpretum,

    I don't want to disrupt your thread on the Gospel prophecies, so briefly the Lord's day (Revelation 1:10) will not begin until Jesus' return - that is just after Mankind by their asking for help will have subjected their authority under God's - so the events of Revelation's vision including Armageddon will not occur before God's rescue.

    Best wishes with the thread,


Acts5v29


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04-24-2011 11:38 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #153
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Seems however, that many people feel it can be determined by consensus.


No, Biblical truth is NOT necessarily determined by consensus.

However, I will give you ONE example of where your own belief system has blinded you to the simple truth taught in scripture.

You said earlier that it wasn't clear that the city being mentioned in the 70 weeks prophecy (Daniel 9) was Jerusalem.

Well, that's PRECISELY what it says:

"And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem..."

Do I need to go further?

And don't give me the "Jerusalem above" line. Jerusalem above could not come into existence until Jerusalem BELOW was sorted out!

That's why it would get rebuilt... oh, with a PUBLIC SQUARE and MOAT!

This is just an example of how you blind yourself to the plain truth that stares you in the face.

Not clear? Gabriel himself tells us!

But... yes, yes, yes... he's really talking about the Christian Temple and how Jehovah's Witnesses are going to change their baptismal vows in the 1980's.

If the CONTEXT doesn't convince you (Daniel praying about his devastated city), if Gabriel's own WORDS don't convince you... if even its FULFILLMENT doesn't convince you... then you are too in love with your own private interpretation.

And yes... yours IS a private interpretation.


Interpretum,

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Seems however, that many people feel it can be determined by consensus.


No, Biblical truth is NOT necessarily determined by consensus.

However, I will give you ONE example of where your own belief system has blinded you to the simple truth taught in scripture.

You said earlier that it wasn't clear that the city being mentioned in the 70 weeks prophecy (Daniel 9) was Jerusalem.

Well, that's PRECISELY what it says:

"And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem..."

Do I need to go further?


abe Wrote:
Need I remind you yet again that the Apostles were well aware that the word had indeed gone forth to rebuild Jerusalem in the first century?

Acts 15:13-17
Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things

Yes, a simple truth taught in scripture!

That the Apostles now understood.

Was it a brick and mortar city and temple being rebuilt?

No!

Ephesians 2:19-21
Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, 20 and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah.



And don't give me the "Jerusalem above" line. Jerusalem above could not come into existence until Jerusalem BELOW was sorted out!

abe Wrote:
Well now that you understand the Jerusalem below is not a literal brick and mortar city (or do you?) then its a good idea to examine what the final iteration of the Jerusalem above will be like:

Revelation 21:25-27
And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. 26 And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life [will].

Suggesting that a disgusting thing will not enter into this final circumstance.

The present circumstance is the city and temple being rebuilt by the people of the nations which, is not brick and mortar.

This spiritual city and temple is not exempt from having a disgusting thing enter it.



That's why it would get rebuilt... oh, with a PUBLIC SQUARE and MOAT!


abe Wrote:
Yes, and it also will have a CORNERSTONE, a FOUNDATION and a BUILDING on top of that foundation. It is a spiritual city being rebuilt so why not a PUBLIC SQUARE and a MOAT, perhaps even a COURTYARD and WALL with GATES. An entire kingdom. It is Jesus Christs KINGDOM that is being built.

Ephesians 2:19-21
Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, 20 and YOU have been built up upon the FOUNDATION of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation CORNERSTONE. 21 In union with him the whole BUILDING, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah.



This is just an example of how you blind yourself to the plain truth that stares you in the face.


abe Wrote:
Well, now the plain truth is staring you in the face!



Not clear? Gabriel himself tells us!

But... yes, yes, yes... he's really talking about the Christian Temple and how Jehovah's Witnesses are going to change their baptismal vows in the 1980's.

abe Wrote:
Gabriel helped Daniel understand what he saw in his vision:

Daniel 8:11
And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down.

Yep, its all about the Christian Temple!

That sets up the CONTEXT of Gabriels explanation.



If the CONTEXT doesn't convince you (Daniel praying about his devastated city), if Gabriel's own WORDS don't convince you... if even its FULFILLMENT doesn't convince you... then you are too in love with your own private interpretation.

abe Wrote:
The CONTEXT does convince me. There is so much about the Messiah in Daniels visions and Gabriels message that it becomes obvious that Jesus Christ is an important entity in regards to Daniels people.

That means its about Christianity.

Yes, a Jew in Babylon being told about Christianity through visions and angels.

He is not being told about the start of Christianity but the final situation when the constant feature is taken from the prince of the armies (Jesus Christ) and HIS established sanctuary thrown down.



And yes... yours IS a private interpretation.

abe Wrote:
What I have described above has very solid support in the scriptures.

I think all Christians should very carefully consider what the final circumstance will be like when Jesus Christ does return to repair the situation he finds inside of HIS KINGDOM.

HIS KINGDOM has been ruined by Christians, his own people!

Daniel 9:26
“And the city and the holy place THE PEOPLE of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin

Jesus Christ will terminate the transgression by throwing the transgressors into the fiery furnace, they will be exterminated:

Matthew 13:39-43
The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from HIS KINGDOM all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


Jesus Christ himself shared with us what will happen at the conclusion of the system of things, the final part of the denunciation.

So my interpretation is not private. It agrees with Jesus Christ! .. and Daniel.

The transgressors will be exterminated:

Daniel 9:27
“And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”


In Christ

abe


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04-24-2011 01:47 PM
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Resolute
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Post: #154
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

I'm confused here, Abe. Who's talking to who in the last post? From a quick glance it looks like Abe talking to Abe. :confused:

rez


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04-26-2011 11:19 AM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #155
RE: Proof That Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 13 Are Essentially The Same

Resolute Wrote:
I'm confused here, Abe. Who's talking to who in the last post? From a quick glance it looks like Abe talking to Abe. :confused:

rez


rez,

I fixed it by quoting the entire initiating post.

I put my answers in quotes rather than have quotes within quotes which can be confusing.

Yes, it the reverse of the way most people answer by quoting the original and unquoting the reply.

Hope that works.

If not I could reverse all the quotes.

abe


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04-26-2011 01:52 PM
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