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A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ
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Bangalore
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A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ.

http://rob-lundberg.blogspot.com/2011/04...ation.html

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Bangalore


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04-24-2011 07:06 AM
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Derek
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

Jehovah's witnesses do not understand the Grace of God.

Christ's resurrection is our personal guarantee of our resurrection.



We go in faith, our own great weakness feeling,
And needing more each day Thy grace to know:
Yet from our hearts a song of triumph pealing,
“We rest on Thee, and in Thy Name we go.”
04-24-2011 09:18 AM
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1 OF MINI
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

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04-24-2011 10:02 AM
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Willa
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

It doesn't supercede it, imho, since one can't be resurrected until one has died. As part of that 'package deal' I think it includes it, as a 'given'. mo. :)

What did the guy mean when he said Jesus ransom was paid to Jehovah God and not the devil? If that's an allusion to some wt doctrine, I don't get it.

:)


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04-24-2011 10:39 AM
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1 OF MINI
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

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A man dies when he refuses to stand up for that which is right. A man dies when he refuses to stand up for justice. A man dies when he refuses to take a stand for that which is true. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
04-24-2011 10:52 AM
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isomam
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

Willa Wrote:
It doesn't supercede it, imho, since one can't be resurrected until one has died. As part of that 'package deal' I think it includes it, as a 'given'. mo. :)

What did the guy mean when he said Jesus ransom was paid to Jehovah God and not the devil? If that's an allusion to some wt doctrine, I don't get it.

:)


i don't think that was ever a watchtower doctrine [could be wrong about that, though], but it is a school of thought that (surprise, surprise!) has it's adherents. :whistle:


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04-24-2011 10:58 AM
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wolfie
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

perhaps he is basing his thoughts on the resurrection on 1 corinthians 15 as Paul said that without the resurrection then ''preaching is useless and so is your faith.'' and he said ''if Christ has not been raised , your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.'' --just a thought I had reading these comments-- :heartbeat:


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04-24-2011 11:19 AM
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smoldering wick
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

Well if you want my opinion (I realize some will see this as more than an opinion), sometimes when I'm attempting to track an argument, I realize that the one arguing has switched tracks. i.e. What we started out discussing gets derailed and then rerailed onto an issue that's so technical in nature it cannot be argued.

As I read the dialogue, I think that if I was the woman, I might've got hung up on his reference to the 'bodily' resurrection of Christ. This a is doctrinally sanitized teaching of some churches. The writer, I believe uses licence (and why not since HE's the one telling the story?) to divert the poor woman into an argument that is too technical to defeat.

The very fact that there are so many conflicting scriptures to the 'bodily' resurrection of Christ, makes a solid, doctrinal conclusion impossible. Oh well, at least he wasn't raising the equally tiresome 'Jesus-raised-himself' doctrine(or did I miss that fast ball too?).

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition,

sw


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04-24-2011 01:09 PM
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Yannis
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

smoldering wick Wrote:
Oh well, at least he wasn't raising the equally tiresome 'Jesus-raised-himself' doctrine(or did I miss that fast ball too?).


Oh, you mean the doctrine that the Lord HIMSELF spoke of? You calling Jesus own words tiresome?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
04-24-2011 02:46 PM
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smoldering wick
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

Yannis Wrote:
Oh, you mean the doctrine that the Lord HIMSELF spoke of? You calling Jesus own words tiresome?

No ... just the way my Lord meant them without the religious bias of translators. Try to think more Hebraical than Greco-Roman.


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04-24-2011 04:08 PM
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1 OF MINI
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

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A man dies when he refuses to stand up for that which is right. A man dies when he refuses to stand up for justice. A man dies when he refuses to take a stand for that which is true. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
04-24-2011 06:33 PM
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Derek
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

Hi guys,
I think the real problem is that most people who were/are members of the WTS did not see Christ death as vicarious.... for them personally.

It was just a general ransom for all.

The ransom is just one aspect of the atonement and who it was paid to has been debated long and hard over the last two thousand years. I believe it to be an illustration of one aspect of the atonement and it is sometimes taken too far and becomes the atonement itself.

To Paul, Christ's sacrifice was personal to him, we Christians die with Christ so that we shall be raised with him. I was alluding earlier to the scripture Carol quoted in Corinthians. If the dead (we) are not raised, then Christ has not been raised! It is a cast iron guarantee for us, but I don't think any one who belongs to the Lord would separate his resurrection from his crucifixion and vicarious death (Isa 53) in this rather silly argument that covers up the real issue; which is that most JW's do not feel the personal spiritual link between themselves and the Son of God. Most are conditioned by their hierarchical two class doctrine away from knowing their Lord intimately.
regards
Derek.



We go in faith, our own great weakness feeling,
And needing more each day Thy grace to know:
Yet from our hearts a song of triumph pealing,
“We rest on Thee, and in Thy Name we go.”
04-25-2011 05:59 AM
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Willa
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

1 OF MINI Wrote:

wolfie Wrote:
perhaps he is basing his thoughts on the resurrection on 1 corinthians 15 as Paul said that without the resurrection then ''preaching is useless and so is your faith.'' and he said ''if Christ has not been raised , your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.'' --just a thought I had reading these comments-- :heartbeat:

Agreed Wolfie, but still wondering if persons who tout this scripture have thought through the process that made the resurrection of Jesus, significant.

The Master's resurrection would be moot without His sacrifice, ergo the phrase, "you are still in your sins", giving us the very lead hint of just what brought meaning to it.

Not trying to split hairs, but had Jesus died in a tragic chariot pile-up on the Appian Way, instead of the way the Scriptures indicated would provide a ransom, then a resurrection for Him would be meaningless for us.


"two" more.

LTA,
John

I don't think I understand your point, John. Other Christians certainly do take into account the way and the why Jesus died and what that means for them - their churches portray His 'passion' every year at this time. Even my hubby's work gives them Good Friday off to attend church. Then Easter(man I really Really don't like that moniker for our Lord Jesus' resurrection commemoration!) is about the resurrection. They absolutely do take both events into account.

What I don't like about that guy's bloated little triumph over the JW lady is this - he baited her. It wasn't about his love for Christ that urged him to witness to her about Jesus, no, it was his own pride in arguing over doctrine. He could've made a convert for Christ if he'd approached the woman with more of His love rather than out of his fleshly need to be so-called 'right'. Yah-rah, guy - you really told her, eh?! :(

They can argue about how and when till they're blue in the face but they've missed the main point - Jesus died for US and was raised for US.
I may be completely alone in my opinion that arguing how and when and where matters very little, but that it really did happen just as it was prophesied(the WHY of it!) for the Messiah to live, die and come to life again - that in itself is an awesome truth - and our precious hope!

2 cents :)


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
04-25-2011 11:05 AM
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Derek
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

I don't why some get all on the defensive. Those of us who were J.W's know quite well we were not trained to have two way normal conversations with householders but to get back to our pre-programmed package PDQ.

Some here may not have done this, but you bet, the vast majority of witnesses didn't listen and respond in a conversational way.

If the WTS was different in the States and Canada to the UK I have a chimpanzee as a nephew.



We go in faith, our own great weakness feeling,
And needing more each day Thy grace to know:
Yet from our hearts a song of triumph pealing,
“We rest on Thee, and in Thy Name we go.”
04-25-2011 12:02 PM
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smoldering wick
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RE: A "Witness" Encounters A Witness Presentation Of The Resurrection Of Christ

Willa Wrote:
I may be completely alone in my opinion

Yeah but that can be a good thing. You were right though Willa. He baited her and it was to mess with her head, not to encourage her heart. What I find sad is that when all the debating is done, there is no depth to the man's faith. He's alone and without a relationship with Christ because Christ doesn't operate that way. He never did and neither did his Father, to whom we all owe both life and salvation.

I think Derek made a good point when he said,

Quote:
in this rather silly argument that covers up the real issue; which is that most JW's do not feel the personal spiritual link between themselves and the Son of God. Most are conditioned by their hierarchical two class doctrine away from knowing their Lord intimately.

I personally feel that the vast majority in most religions feel unworthy of Christ because of the power structure that exists over them. Those who cannot feel their relationship with both Father and Son revert to arguing with and or converting others to an ideology with which they've replaced their own unworthiness and so the structures grow like leaven, which was not at all how Jesus ever meant for his true body.

Just my little opinion,

sw


"What cannot be understood is no object of belief.” Isaac Newton.
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"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the urge to rule it.” H. L. Mencken
04-25-2011 12:25 PM
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