Latest News: The Great Trubulation


Pages (2): « First [1] 2 Next > Last »
The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)
Author Message
Interpretum
This Space For Rent


Posts: 1,839
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #1
The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

Hi Folks

I'd like to discuss this scripture:

"The thing that Isaiah the son of Amoz visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem: And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:1-4)

At least some of sounds like it was fulfilled in 33AD.

After all, Christianity first got its real start in Jerusalem... this was where "the nations" first streamed to Jehovah's worship at the same time as the "word of Jehovah" came OUT of Jerusalem.

On the other hand, it says the exact opposite of what Jesus said would happen before the 70AD desolation. Jesus said there would be "nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"... while here, we have "nation will not lift up sword against nation".

I suppose we could argue (as do JWs) that this is exclusively in reference to Christians, who no longer take up the sword... but the reference to nations and swords seems to imply it's talking about actual nations making peace.

So the question is... how is (or was) this fulfilled?

If it IS future, how does "out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem"?

If we are talking about SPIRITUAL Jerusalem... then why not also apply the spiritual sense to the "nations", and have this fulfilled from 33AD onwards?

And that still doesn't answer the question of how the word of Jehovah would come out of SPIRITUAL Jerusalem?

On the other hand, I'm wondering whether this may be a future prophecy about God's restoration of Judah and Jerusalem, and once again re-establishing it as His footstool.

If we combine Isaiah 60 with Revelation 21, this seems to be the picture of Jerusalem restored to full godly glory.

Isaiah 60 (extracts):


“Arise, O woman, shed forth light, for your light has come and upon you the very glory of Jehovah has shone forth. For, look! darkness itself will cover the earth, and thick gloom the national groups; but upon you Jehovah will shine forth, and upon you his own glory will be seen. And nations will certainly go to your light, and kings to the brightness of your shining forth.

And foreigners will actually build your walls, and their own kings will minister to you; for in my indignation I shall have struck you, but in my goodwill I shall certainly have mercy upon you.

“And your gates will actually be kept open constantly; they will not be closed even by day or by night, in order to bring to you the resources of the nations, and their kings will be taking the lead. For any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish; and the nations themselves will without fail come to devastation."

"For you the sun will no more prove to be a light by day, and for brightness the moon itself will no more give you light. And Jehovah must become to you an indefinitely lasting light, and your God your beauty. No more will your sun set, nor will your moon go on the wane; for Jehovah himself will become for you an indefinitely lasting light, and the days of your mourning will have come to completion. And as for your people, all of them will be righteous; to time indefinite they will hold possession of the land, the sprout of my planting, the work of my hands, for [me] to be beautified."


Revelation 21 (extracts):

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples."

"And I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is]. And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb. And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it."


It seems that Revelation 21 (New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven and God residing with mankind) is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60, which was promised to Jerusalem.

I conclude that New Jerusalem IS Jerusalem, but fully restored to God by the end of the 1,000 years.

It seems to me that this is also the fulfillment of Isaiah 2. The "final part of the days" there is at the end of the 1,000 years!... when it can be truly said that "nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
04-25-2011 11:01 PM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #2
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

Interpretum,

My insights on that scripture come mostly from the parallel in Micah Chapter 4.

I am convinced that the preceding Chapter, Micah Chapter 3 is in reference to the last and ferocious wild beast of Daniel Chapter 7.

Which is also the wild beast in Revelation, both having 10 kings.

What I find very profound is that the "mountain of the house of Jehovah" scripture starting in Micah Chapter 4 comes immediately after what I discern as that same wild beast mentioned in Chapter 3.


What I have highligted in red I believe is in regard to the wild beast.

Notice the proximity in that scripture, to the mention of the "mountain of the house of Jehovah" .


Micah 3:1-4:2
And I proceeded to say: “Hear, please, YOU heads of Jacob and YOU commanders of the house of Israel. Is it not YOUR business to know justice? 2 YOU haters of what is good and lovers of badness, tearing off their skin from people and their organism from off their bones; 3 YOU the ones who have also eaten the organism of my people, and have stripped their very skin from off them, and smashed to pieces their very bones, and crushed [them] to pieces like what is in a widemouthed pot and like flesh in the midst of a cooking pot. 4 At that time they will call to Jehovah for aid, but he will not answer them. And he will conceal his face from them in that time, according as they committed badness in their dealings.
5 “This is what Jehovah has said against the prophets that are causing my people to wander, that are biting with their teeth and that actually call out, ‘Peace!’ that, when anyone does not put [something] into their mouths, also actually sanctify war against him, 6 ‘Therefore YOU men will have night, so that there will be no vision; and darkness YOU will have, so as not to practice divination. And the sun will certainly set upon the prophets, and the day must get dark upon them. 7 And the visionaries will have to be ashamed, and the diviners will certainly be disappointed. And they will have to cover over the mustache, all of them, for there is no answer from God.’”

8 And, on the other hand, I myself have become full of power, with the spirit of Jehovah, and of justice and mightiness, in order to tell to Jacob his revolt and to Israel his sin.
9 Hear, please, this, YOU head ones of the house of Jacob and YOU commanders of the house of Israel, the ones detesting justice and the ones who make even everything that is straight crooked; 10 building Zion with acts of bloodshed and Jerusalem with unrighteousness. 11 Her own head ones judge merely for a bribe, and her own priests instruct just for a price, and her own prophets practice divination simply for money; yet upon Jehovah they keep supporting themselves, saying: “Is not Jehovah in the midst of us? There will come upon us no calamity.” 12 Therefore on account of YOU men Zion will be plowed up as a mere field, and Jerusalem herself will become mere heaps of ruins, and the mountain of the house will be as the high places of a forest.4 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it peoples must stream. 2 And many nations will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.



In my opinion the wild beast plays a significant role in what happens during the final part of the days.

Making that connection to Micah is interesting.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-26-2011 12:46 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #3
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

Interpretum,

Further to the wild beast in Micah Chapter 3, the preceeding Chapter 2 ends with "going out by the gate" to follow Jesus Christ their king. The gathering of Jacob into a pen.

So my personal synopsis of Micah Chapter 2, 3 and 4.

In Chapter 2 Jacob is gathered in a circumstance where they go out or exit through a gate (of a city, spiritual Jerusalem?) following Jesus Christ (no matter where he goes?).

Chapter 3 condemns the "heads of Jacob" using adjectives incredibly similar to those describing the final and ferocious wild beast of Daniel Chapter 7. (Revelation)

Chapter 4 immediately follows with; "And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it peoples must stream"


So people exiting a city which is condemned like a wild beast following Jesus Christ and somehow, ending up at the mountain of the House of Jehovah in the final part of the days after being gathered "in a pen" outside the gate of that condemned city.

The connection to Revelation begs the question about what happens to those ones told; "get out of her my people". Are they the same people gathered into "the pen". A pen being perhaps a temporary spiritual circumstance outside the condemned city.


Yep, lots to think about.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-26-2011 03:36 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
knightlockX
Member


Posts: 382
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2010
Status: Away
Post: #4
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

Removed by user


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
04-26-2011 04:55 PM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #5
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

.

I guess what I posted above relies mostly on making a connection to that 4th and final wild beast in Daniel Chapter 7 with those incredibly similar adjectives and nouns in Micah.


I'll post the scriptures below and highlight those adjectives so that perhaps others reading this thread might see the profound connection.

Daniels Ferocious Beast:

Daniel 7:7
“After this I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! a fourth beast, fearsome and terrible and unusually strong. And it had teeth of iron, big ones. It was devouring and crushing, and what was left it was treading down with its feet. And it was something different from all the [other] beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:19
“Then it was that I desired to make certain concerning the fourth beast, which proved to be different from all the others, extraordinarily fearsome, the teeth of which were of iron and the claws of which were of copper, which was devouring [and] crushing, and which was treading down even what was left with its feet;


Micah's Heads of Jacob;

Micah 3:1-5
And I proceeded to say: “Hear, please, YOU heads of Jacob and YOU commanders of the house of Israel. Is it not YOUR business to know justice? 2 YOU haters of what is good and lovers of badness, tearing off their skin {with claws?}from people and their organism from off their bones; 3 YOU the ones who have also eaten {devouring?} the organism of my people, and have stripped their very skin {with claws?}from off them, and smashed to pieces their very bones, and crushed [them] to pieces like what is in a widemouthed pot and like flesh in the midst of a cooking pot. 4 At that time they will call to Jehovah for aid, but he will not answer them. And he will conceal his face from them in that time, according as they committed badness in their dealings.
5 “This is what Jehovah has said against the prophets that are causing my people to wander, that are biting with their teeth and that actually call out, ‘Peace!’ that, when anyone does not put [something] into their mouths, also actually sanctify war against him,


Keep in mind that "eating" and devouring" is essentially the same thing.

More easily acheived with big strong teeth!

Also that the circumstance of ferocious claws is the stripping and tearing off of skin.

Isn't that why people are afraid of powerful claws belonging to a ferocious beast?

Another thing this connection convinces me of is that the wild beasts mentioned throughout all scripture are not secular institutions.

They are not pagan governments, or commercial.

They are the institutions that God's own people build.

Neither are they "false religion".

They are true religion!

Yep, I know that conflicts with popular opinion.

and

It also conflicts with the Watchtower opinion.

I made this post so that anyone reading might more easily make the same discernment that I did when examining the issue about where exactly the Mountain of the House of Jehovah might be.

I personally think the parallels are important to discern because they do indeed significantly change how many end time scriptures are approached by a student of the bible.


In Christ


abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-27-2011 12:43 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
isomam
In Spite of Many and Much


Posts: 2,239
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #6
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

oy vay. :huh: profound indeed. :coffeeread:


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
04-27-2011 08:35 PM
Find all posts by this user
e-magine
Disciple of Newness


Posts: 2,488
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #7
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

Hi abe!
You said, "Another thing this connection convinces me of is that the wild beasts mentioned throughout all scripture are not secular institutions.

They are not pagan governments, or commercial.

They are the institutions that God's own people build.

Neither are they "false religion".

They are true religion!

Yep, I know that conflicts with popular opinion.

and

It also conflicts with the Watchtower opinion."


Are you thinking that "true religion" is all of Christemdom, or,
singular sub religions witin that context, or, just one religion?


avatar:
Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
04-28-2011 01:06 PM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #8
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

e-magine Wrote:
Hi abe!
You said, "Another thing this connection convinces me of is that the wild beasts mentioned throughout all scripture are not secular institutions.

They are not pagan governments, or commercial.

They are the institutions that God's own people build.

Neither are they "false religion".

They are true religion!

Yep, I know that conflicts with popular opinion.

and

It also conflicts with the Watchtower opinion."


Are you thinking that "true religion" is all of Christemdom, or,
singular sub religions witin that context, or, just one religion?


e-magine,

Thats a good question!

In the context of the wild beasts I have already stated that the wild beasts are built by God's people, also know as Christians.

I believe that each wild beast is a Christian entity built throughout history.

All those wild beasts are still here today!

It is however, the last iteration, the final wild beast, the fearsome one which plays a significant role in fullfilling end time prophecy.

True Christian rulership will pass from this last iteration and be given to the holy ones through the last and ferocious wild beasts annhilation.

Daniel 7:25-27
And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally.27 “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.’

When this happens the preceeding wild beasts (the rest of Christendom) become essentially redundant.

The important rulership is the one that the last wild beast obtains and undermines.


Daniel 7:11-12
I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire. 12 But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and there was a lengthening in life given to them for a time and a season.

So in keeping with the theme of the thread where does the "mountain of the House of Jehovah" fit in with all of this?

If the rulership is given to the holy ones after the annhilation then the holy ones who are to rule have somehow become completely seperated from any of the wild beasts.

I do not think the "Mountain" will be easy to find prior to the annihilation.

Matthew 13:41-43
The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun IN the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


Notice that an annihilation occurs in Jesus Christs kingdom and that "AT THAT TIME" the righteous ones wil shine IN THE KINGDOM.

The MOUNTAIN should then become discernable.

Keep in mind however, that the rest of the wild beasts continue for some time after this.

Suggesting that the rest of Christendom needs some time before they figure out where the "Mountain" is.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-28-2011 01:46 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
symbiosis
Member


Posts: 30
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Jan 2011
Status: Offline
Post: #9
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Folks

I'd like to discuss this scripture:

"The thing that Isaiah the son of Amoz visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem: And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:1-4)

At least some of sounds like it was fulfilled in 33AD.

After all, Christianity first got its real start in Jerusalem... this was where "the nations" first streamed to Jehovah's worship at the same time as the "word of Jehovah" came OUT of Jerusalem.

On the other hand, it says the exact opposite of what Jesus said would happen before the 70AD desolation. Jesus said there would be "nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"... while here, we have "nation will not lift up sword against nation".

I suppose we could argue (as do JWs) that this is exclusively in reference to Christians, who no longer take up the sword... but the reference to nations and swords seems to imply it's talking about actual nations making peace.

So the question is... how is (or was) this fulfilled?

If it IS future, how does "out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem"?

If we are talking about SPIRITUAL Jerusalem... then why not also apply the spiritual sense to the "nations", and have this fulfilled from 33AD onwards?

And that still doesn't answer the question of how the word of Jehovah would come out of SPIRITUAL Jerusalem?

On the other hand, I'm wondering whether this may be a future prophecy about God's restoration of Judah and Jerusalem, and once again re-establishing it as His footstool.

If we combine Isaiah 60 with Revelation 21, this seems to be the picture of Jerusalem restored to full godly glory.

Isaiah 60 (extracts):


“Arise, O woman, shed forth light, for your light has come and upon you the very glory of Jehovah has shone forth. For, look! darkness itself will cover the earth, and thick gloom the national groups; but upon you Jehovah will shine forth, and upon you his own glory will be seen. And nations will certainly go to your light, and kings to the brightness of your shining forth.

And foreigners will actually build your walls, and their own kings will minister to you; for in my indignation I shall have struck you, but in my goodwill I shall certainly have mercy upon you.

“And your gates will actually be kept open constantly; they will not be closed even by day or by night, in order to bring to you the resources of the nations, and their kings will be taking the lead. For any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish; and the nations themselves will without fail come to devastation."

"For you the sun will no more prove to be a light by day, and for brightness the moon itself will no more give you light. And Jehovah must become to you an indefinitely lasting light, and your God your beauty. No more will your sun set, nor will your moon go on the wane; for Jehovah himself will become for you an indefinitely lasting light, and the days of your mourning will have come to completion. And as for your people, all of them will be righteous; to time indefinite they will hold possession of the land, the sprout of my planting, the work of my hands, for [me] to be beautified."


Revelation 21 (extracts):

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples."

"And I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is]. And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb. And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it."


It seems that Revelation 21 (New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven and God residing with mankind) is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60, which was promised to Jerusalem.

I conclude that New Jerusalem IS Jerusalem, but fully restored to God by the end of the 1,000 years.

It seems to me that this is also the fulfillment of Isaiah 2. The "final part of the days" there is at the end of the 1,000 years!... when it can be truly said that "nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."


hi Interpretum
not sure how nation agaionst nation could have been fulfilled in 70 ad
i think nation against nation has not been fulfilled to date but is a fast approaching event.

which either means the jerusalem spoken of by Isaiah is spiritual israel,
a spiritual jerusalem or it it must be a real place, that can be surrounded by nations and attacked by them.

zechariah 12, 13, 14 seems to me to speak of a physical place which contains Gods people.

how we get to that situation where Jerusalem is restored and surrounded by nations as of yet i do not understand.
but i do think that the gentiles christians have underestimated Gods love for His covenanted people.
romans 11

symbiosis

04-29-2011 04:06 AM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #10
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

e-magine Wrote:
Hi abe!
You said, "Another thing this connection convinces me of is that the wild beasts mentioned throughout all scripture are not secular institutions.

They are not pagan governments, or commercial.

They are the institutions that God's own people build.

Neither are they "false religion".

They are true religion!

Yep, I know that conflicts with popular opinion.

and

It also conflicts with the Watchtower opinion."


Are you thinking that "true religion" is all of Christemdom, or,
singular sub religions witin that context, or, just one religion?


e-magine,

I have been thinking a lot about your question.

If what I have presented above regarding Micah Chapter 3 is indeed all about that last and ferocious wild beast in Daniel and the wild beast in Revelation with the 10 kings then the statement at the start of Micah 3 becomes very relevant:

Micah 3:1
And I proceeded to say: “Hear, please, YOU heads of Jacob and YOU commanders of the house of Israel. Is it not YOUR business to know justice?

That last wild beast must therefore be the one which contains and is ruled by the "heads of Jacob".

The twelve leaders of the tribes of Israel.

Could it actually be that those 12 leaders manifest themselves in the end of the days immediately before that final part of the denunciation?

Genesis Chapter 49 suggests that will indeed be the situation:


Genesis 49:1-2
Later on Jacob called his sons and said: “Gather yourselves together that I may tell YOU what will happen to YOU in the final part of the days. 2 Assemble yourselves and listen, YOU sons of Jacob, yes, listen to Israel YOUR father.

So are these the ones also mentioned in Micah Chapter 3?

If you read Genesis Chapter 49 you will discover that only two of the sons receive an extraordinary blessing.

Which leaves 10.

Is it these 10 who are condemned in Micah Chapter 3 immediately before the final part of the denunciation?

Micah 3 does indeed indicate that a denunciation will take place:


Micah 3:11-12
Her own head ones judge merely for a bribe, and her own priests simply for money; yet upon Jehovah they keep supporting instruct just for a price, and her own prophets practice divination themselves, saying: “Is not Jehovah in the midst of us? There will come upon us no calamity.” 12 Therefore on account of YOU men Zion will be plowed up as a mere field, and Jerusalem herself will become mere heaps of ruins, and the mountain of the house will be as the high places of a forest.

Yet, immediately after the mentioned denunciation it says:


Micah 4:1
And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it peoples must stream


It is my conviction therefore that the last wild beast in Daniel and Revelation which both mention 10 kings, connect to this situation with the "sons of Jacob" condemned in Micah Chapter 3.

Those 10 kings are indeed anointed ones who treat with impunity and victimise their own Christian brothers and the ones they were supposed to be looking after.

The evil slave.

The very situation that Jesus Christ described might exist upon his return:


Matthew 24:48-51
“But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.


I believe those will be the same 10 kings weeping and beating themselves in grief after Babylon the Great is desolated:


Revelation 18:9-10
“And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, 10 while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’

So immediately after the desolation of Babylon the Great is the "mountain of the house of Jehovah" established in a righteous way?

That is what is inferred in the scripture which immediately follow Babylons destruction:


Revelation 19:6-7
And I heard what was as a voice of a great crowd and as a sound of many waters and as a sound of heavy thunders. They said: “Praise Jah, YOU people, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king. 7 Let us rejoice and be overjoyed, and let us give him the glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself


So to more accurately answer your question.

The last and ferocious wild beast being ruled by the final day "sons of Jacob" is the true religion.


It is about the final circumstance of the last Christian religion built immediately before Jesus Christ returns.


Please carefully take note in Micah Chapter 3 of what these final day Christians believe:


Micah 3:11
yet upon Jehovah they keep supporting themselves, saying: “Is not Jehovah in the midst of us? There will come upon us no calamity.”



In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
04-29-2011 01:28 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
knightlockX
Member


Posts: 382
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2010
Status: Away
Post: #11
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Folks

I'd like to discuss this scripture:

"The thing that Isaiah the son of Amoz visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem: And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:1-4)

At least some of sounds like it was fulfilled in 33AD.

After all, Christianity first got its real start in Jerusalem... this was where "the nations" first streamed to Jehovah's worship at the same time as the "word of Jehovah" came OUT of Jerusalem.

On the other hand, it says the exact opposite of what Jesus said would happen before the 70AD desolation. Jesus said there would be "nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"... while here, we have "nation will not lift up sword against nation".

I suppose we could argue (as do JWs) that this is exclusively in reference to Christians, who no longer take up the sword... but the reference to nations and swords seems to imply it's talking about actual nations making peace.

So the question is... how is (or was) this fulfilled?

If it IS future, how does "out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem"?

If we are talking about SPIRITUAL Jerusalem... then why not also apply the spiritual sense to the "nations", and have this fulfilled from 33AD onwards?

And that still doesn't answer the question of how the word of Jehovah would come out of SPIRITUAL Jerusalem?

On the other hand, I'm wondering whether this may be a future prophecy about God's restoration of Judah and Jerusalem, and once again re-establishing it as His footstool.

If we combine Isaiah 60 with Revelation 21, this seems to be the picture of Jerusalem restored to full godly glory.

Isaiah 60 (extracts):


“Arise, O woman, shed forth light, for your light has come and upon you the very glory of Jehovah has shone forth. For, look! darkness itself will cover the earth, and thick gloom the national groups; but upon you Jehovah will shine forth, and upon you his own glory will be seen. And nations will certainly go to your light, and kings to the brightness of your shining forth.

And foreigners will actually build your walls, and their own kings will minister to you; for in my indignation I shall have struck you, but in my goodwill I shall certainly have mercy upon you.

“And your gates will actually be kept open constantly; they will not be closed even by day or by night, in order to bring to you the resources of the nations, and their kings will be taking the lead. For any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish; and the nations themselves will without fail come to devastation."

"For you the sun will no more prove to be a light by day, and for brightness the moon itself will no more give you light. And Jehovah must become to you an indefinitely lasting light, and your God your beauty. No more will your sun set, nor will your moon go on the wane; for Jehovah himself will become for you an indefinitely lasting light, and the days of your mourning will have come to completion. And as for your people, all of them will be righteous; to time indefinite they will hold possession of the land, the sprout of my planting, the work of my hands, for [me] to be beautified."


Revelation 21 (extracts):

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples."

"And I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is]. And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb. And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it."


It seems that Revelation 21 (New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven and God residing with mankind) is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60, which was promised to Jerusalem.

I conclude that New Jerusalem IS Jerusalem, but fully restored to God by the end of the 1,000 years.

It seems to me that this is also the fulfillment of Isaiah 2. The "final part of the days" there is at the end of the 1,000 years!... when it can be truly said that "nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."


Ablebodiedman learn to read Greek. The literal translation of that scritpure is "they will be kings and priests for thousands of years."

The word in Greek at Rev for thousand is plural.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
05-01-2011 06:42 PM
Find all posts by this user
Totaldismay
Member


Posts: 1,661
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #12
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

hi knight x,

"Ablebodiedman learn to read Greek. The literal translation of that scritpure is "they will be kings and priests for thousands of years."

The word in Greek at Rev for thousand is plural"

that is interesting to me. I am not able to dig into the greek myself.

That would seem to mean that the " milenium" might not be a milenium after all" unless I am misunderstanding things.

it would eem to indicate that even our christ would rule for thousands of years.

pls correct me if this is wrong.

05-02-2011 08:40 AM
Find all posts by this user
knightlockX
Member


Posts: 382
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2010
Status: Away
Post: #13
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

Totaldismay Wrote:
hi knight x,

"Ablebodiedman learn to read Greek. The literal translation of that scritpure is "they will be kings and priests for thousands of years."

The word in Greek at Rev for thousand is plural"

that is interesting to me. I am not able to dig into the greek myself.

That would seem to mean that the " milenium" might not be a milenium after all" unless I am misunderstanding things.

it would eem to indicate that even our christ would rule for thousands of years.

pls correct me if this is wrong.


No, you are not wrong as it would. That is why I really wish people would learn to read the Bible in Greek as it would open up a whole new meaning such as the above.

As I said before, the only reason that this is not accepted is not due to Greek grammer nor because that people do not see it (I went to a few Greek scholars to make sure that I was accurate and they did in fact confirm that the word was indeed plural) but because it would destroy modern eschotology.

If the reign of Christ were to last thousands of years as the Bible actually says, many of the people who use the Bible to promote false teaching would never be able to pull it off. They could try to but if the Bible clearly shows a teaching they would not get very far.

That is why the WTBS is able to do what it has done for over the last 130+ years, because they did not go back into the Greek.

As I said before the literal translation of Mt about nations is singluar not plural and should be translated "a national group would rise against a national group." In short it should be singluar in both cases.

Why is it not? Because many churches are doing what Ablebodiedman is doing and that being trying to make the Bible say something it acutally does not. If they were to translate it as it really says they could not use that verse to fit anything they wanted but would have to conciede to the idea that it does not really fit their world view at all.

As I have requested my account be deactivated, I may not be able to respond to this. If that is the case please understand that I am not ignoring any here but cannot respond.

If I do not respond within the next 24 hours, please assume that this is the case.

In Christ

Knightlockx


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
05-02-2011 10:05 AM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #14
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

knightlockX Wrote:

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Folks

I'd like to discuss this scripture:

"The thing that Isaiah the son of Amoz visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem: And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:1-4)

At least some of sounds like it was fulfilled in 33AD.

After all, Christianity first got its real start in Jerusalem... this was where "the nations" first streamed to Jehovah's worship at the same time as the "word of Jehovah" came OUT of Jerusalem.

On the other hand, it says the exact opposite of what Jesus said would happen before the 70AD desolation. Jesus said there would be "nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"... while here, we have "nation will not lift up sword against nation".

I suppose we could argue (as do JWs) that this is exclusively in reference to Christians, who no longer take up the sword... but the reference to nations and swords seems to imply it's talking about actual nations making peace.

So the question is... how is (or was) this fulfilled?

If it IS future, how does "out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem"?

If we are talking about SPIRITUAL Jerusalem... then why not also apply the spiritual sense to the "nations", and have this fulfilled from 33AD onwards?

And that still doesn't answer the question of how the word of Jehovah would come out of SPIRITUAL Jerusalem?

On the other hand, I'm wondering whether this may be a future prophecy about God's restoration of Judah and Jerusalem, and once again re-establishing it as His footstool.

If we combine Isaiah 60 with Revelation 21, this seems to be the picture of Jerusalem restored to full godly glory.

Isaiah 60 (extracts):


“Arise, O woman, shed forth light, for your light has come and upon you the very glory of Jehovah has shone forth. For, look! darkness itself will cover the earth, and thick gloom the national groups; but upon you Jehovah will shine forth, and upon you his own glory will be seen. And nations will certainly go to your light, and kings to the brightness of your shining forth.

And foreigners will actually build your walls, and their own kings will minister to you; for in my indignation I shall have struck you, but in my goodwill I shall certainly have mercy upon you.

“And your gates will actually be kept open constantly; they will not be closed even by day or by night, in order to bring to you the resources of the nations, and their kings will be taking the lead. For any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish; and the nations themselves will without fail come to devastation."

"For you the sun will no more prove to be a light by day, and for brightness the moon itself will no more give you light. And Jehovah must become to you an indefinitely lasting light, and your God your beauty. No more will your sun set, nor will your moon go on the wane; for Jehovah himself will become for you an indefinitely lasting light, and the days of your mourning will have come to completion. And as for your people, all of them will be righteous; to time indefinite they will hold possession of the land, the sprout of my planting, the work of my hands, for [me] to be beautified."


Revelation 21 (extracts):

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples."

"And I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is]. And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb. And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it."


It seems that Revelation 21 (New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven and God residing with mankind) is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60, which was promised to Jerusalem.

I conclude that New Jerusalem IS Jerusalem, but fully restored to God by the end of the 1,000 years.

It seems to me that this is also the fulfillment of Isaiah 2. The "final part of the days" there is at the end of the 1,000 years!... when it can be truly said that "nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."


Ablebodiedman learn to read Greek. The literal translation of that scritpure is "they will be kings and priests for thousands of years."

The word in Greek at Rev for thousand is plural.


knightlockX,

Please learn to read English.

I did not write that post. Nor did I mention anything about ruling for a 1000 years anywhere in this thread.


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
05-02-2011 10:35 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
knightlockX
Member


Posts: 382
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2010
Status: Away
Post: #15
RE: The Mountain Of The House Of Jehovah (Isaiah 2)

ablebodiedman Wrote:

knightlockX Wrote:

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Folks

I'd like to discuss this scripture:

"The thing that Isaiah the son of Amoz visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem: And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:1-4)

At least some of sounds like it was fulfilled in 33AD.

After all, Christianity first got its real start in Jerusalem... this was where "the nations" first streamed to Jehovah's worship at the same time as the "word of Jehovah" came OUT of Jerusalem.

On the other hand, it says the exact opposite of what Jesus said would happen before the 70AD desolation. Jesus said there would be "nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"... while here, we have "nation will not lift up sword against nation".

I suppose we could argue (as do JWs) that this is exclusively in reference to Christians, who no longer take up the sword... but the reference to nations and swords seems to imply it's talking about actual nations making peace.

So the question is... how is (or was) this fulfilled?

If it IS future, how does "out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem"?

If we are talking about SPIRITUAL Jerusalem... then why not also apply the spiritual sense to the "nations", and have this fulfilled from 33AD onwards?

And that still doesn't answer the question of how the word of Jehovah would come out of SPIRITUAL Jerusalem?

On the other hand, I'm wondering whether this may be a future prophecy about God's restoration of Judah and Jerusalem, and once again re-establishing it as His footstool.

If we combine Isaiah 60 with Revelation 21, this seems to be the picture of Jerusalem restored to full godly glory.

Isaiah 60 (extracts):


“Arise, O woman, shed forth light, for your light has come and upon you the very glory of Jehovah has shone forth. For, look! darkness itself will cover the earth, and thick gloom the national groups; but upon you Jehovah will shine forth, and upon you his own glory will be seen. And nations will certainly go to your light, and kings to the brightness of your shining forth.

And foreigners will actually build your walls, and their own kings will minister to you; for in my indignation I shall have struck you, but in my goodwill I shall certainly have mercy upon you.

“And your gates will actually be kept open constantly; they will not be closed even by day or by night, in order to bring to you the resources of the nations, and their kings will be taking the lead. For any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish; and the nations themselves will without fail come to devastation."

"For you the sun will no more prove to be a light by day, and for brightness the moon itself will no more give you light. And Jehovah must become to you an indefinitely lasting light, and your God your beauty. No more will your sun set, nor will your moon go on the wane; for Jehovah himself will become for you an indefinitely lasting light, and the days of your mourning will have come to completion. And as for your people, all of them will be righteous; to time indefinite they will hold possession of the land, the sprout of my planting, the work of my hands, for [me] to be beautified."


Revelation 21 (extracts):

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples."

"And I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is]. And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb. And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it."


It seems that Revelation 21 (New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven and God residing with mankind) is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60, which was promised to Jerusalem.

I conclude that New Jerusalem IS Jerusalem, but fully restored to God by the end of the 1,000 years.

It seems to me that this is also the fulfillment of Isaiah 2. The "final part of the days" there is at the end of the 1,000 years!... when it can be truly said that "nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."


Ablebodiedman learn to read Greek. The literal translation of that scritpure is "they will be kings and priests for thousands of years."

The word in Greek at Rev for thousand is plural.


knightlockX,

Please learn to read English.

I did not write that post. Nor did I mention anything about ruling for a 1000 years anywhere in this thread.


In Christ

abe


Well, it does look like in this case I owe you an appology Ablebodiedman, you are correct you did not write this and I appologize that I accused you of it. I will try not to make that mistake again.


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!
05-02-2011 11:08 AM
Find all posts by this user
Pages (2): « First [1] 2 Next > Last »

View a Printable Version
Send this Thread to a Friend
Subscribe to this Thread | Add Thread to Favorites

Forum Jump: