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Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text
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JWHVACR
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Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

After working with others to translate the NT from Greek into English, we decided to go on ahead and complete the whole Bible by translating the OT also. However, since no one was qualified to translate the Hebrew text, we decided to use the Septuagint as the root source, since it was also written in Greek (albeit the difficult Alexandrian Greek). And as we went along, we noticed that the Greek text was clearly superior and more accurate than the extant Hebrew text, where we found numerous obvious errors.

We also noticed that Paul and even Jesus quoted from the Septuagint, and we later found out that it was the preferred Bible of Christians until the time of Jerome, who used the Masoretic text in his Latin Vulgate, because he (erroneously) concluded that the Hebrew text had more messianic prophecies. And western Bible translators have followed this lead ever since. However, in the east (especially among Eastern Catholics), the Septuagint has reigned supreme.

This doesn't mean that the Septuagint is error free, for we've also found many places where the Masoretic text is superior. So, both sources should be considered by serious Bible students.

Now, while I could go into a dissertation on our reasons for leaning toward the Septuagint (you will find a complete coverage at http://www.2001translation.com/Septuagint.htm), I just wanted to point our a latest shocking finding.

I had written in a previous post that the WTS calculations that led to their 1975 prediction for the coming of Armageddon was off by more than 1,000 years, partly because of errors in the Masoretic text that they had used. For, the Septuagint shows that the number ONE HUNDRED was missing from several of the genealogies from Adam to Heber (Genesis Chapters 5 and 11). And I also mentioned that a person was missing from the list, Cainen! Notice the differences in the texts of Genesis 11:12: Masoretic text; Septuagint text.

Now, compare the genealogies as they were given by Luke: Luke 3:36.

So, ask yourself: How has such an obvious error been missed by all the "experts" through the centuries? Shame on you WTS (and all other "Bible Experts")!!!


"Our minds don't control our beliefs, our beliefs control our minds."
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
"Buying into someone's religious, philosophical, or political teachings is the point where you've decided to allow them to do your thinking for you."
05-07-2011 07:44 AM
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Acts5v29
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Post: #2
RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

    An interesting notion well stated.

    There is also the problem of Hebrew words which are capable of several meanings depending on context (or vowel sounds) whose meaning is expressed plainly in the Septuagint text without confusion - very useful.
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05-07-2011 09:53 AM
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e-magine
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

This could put Christian exegesis on its ear!


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He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
05-07-2011 10:10 AM
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JWHVACR
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

Also, notice that according to the Septuagint version of Genesis 11:10-25 (and on through Chapter 14), there was more than 1100 years between the flood and the time when Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek. So, Shem could not have been Melchizedek.


"Our minds don't control our beliefs, our beliefs control our minds."
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
"Buying into someone's religious, philosophical, or political teachings is the point where you've decided to allow them to do your thinking for you."
05-07-2011 10:57 AM
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Interpretum
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

JWHVACR Wrote:
So, ask yourself: How has such an obvious error been missed by all the "experts" through the centuries? Shame on you WTS (and all other "Bible Experts")!!!


To be fair, the WTS didn't really miss this. The footnote to that verse in their Reference Bible says:

LXX vss 12 and 13 read: (12) "And Arpachshad lived a hundred and thirty-five years and became father to Cainan. (13) And after his producing Cainan Arpachshad lived four hundred and thirty years and became father to sons and daughters, and he died. And Cainan lived a hundred and thirty years and became father to Shelah. And after his producing Cainan lived three hundred and thirty years and became father to sons and daughters, and he died." This source inserts the name Cainan between the names Shelah and Arpachshad. Compare Lu 3:36.


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05-07-2011 11:23 AM
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JWHVACR
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

Interpretum Wrote:
To be fair, the WTS didn't really miss this. The footnote to that verse in their Reference Bible says:

LXX vss 12 and 13 read: (12) "And Arpachshad lived a hundred and thirty-five years and became father to Cainan. (13) And after his producing Cainan Arpachshad lived four hundred and thirty years and became father to sons and daughters, and he died. And Cainan lived a hundred and thirty years and became father to Shelah. And after his producing Cainan lived three hundred and thirty years and became father to sons and daughters, and he died." This source inserts the name Cainan between the names Shelah and Arpachshad. Compare Lu 3:36.


Ah, good catch (sorry, I no longer have a NWT). However, notice that while they recognized the extra person, they failed to notice the 100-year discrepancies...
verse 12: "When Arphaxad had lived 35 years, he became the father of Shelah."

There were huge amount of time involved here, because meanwhile, Nimrod was building CITIES!


"Our minds don't control our beliefs, our beliefs control our minds."
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
"Buying into someone's religious, philosophical, or political teachings is the point where you've decided to allow them to do your thinking for you."
05-07-2011 11:59 AM
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Yannis
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

JWHVACR Wrote:
We also noticed that Paul and even Jesus quoted from the Septuagint, and we later found out that it was the preferred Bible of Christians until the time of Jerome, who used the Masoretic text in his Latin Vulgate, because he (erroneously) concluded that the Hebrew text had more messianic prophecies. And western Bible translators have followed this lead ever since. However, in the east (especially among Eastern Catholics), the Septuagint has reigned supreme.


Hi Jim, very nice research. A couple of points, it's not Eastern Catholics, it's Eastern ORTHODOX. Also, were you aware that the Septuagint contained the Apocrypha? That is why both Catholic and Orthodox Bibles include them.


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05-07-2011 05:02 PM
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rus virgil
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

JWHVACR Wrote:
...................................................

This doesn't mean that the Septuagint is error free, for we've also found many places where the Masoretic text is superior. So, both sources should be considered by serious Bible students.

Now, while I could go into a dissertation on our reasons for leaning toward the Septuagint (you will find a complete coverage at http://www.2001translation.com/Septuagint.htm), I just wanted to point our a latest shocking finding.

I had written in a previous post that the WTS calculations that led to their 1975 prediction for the coming of Armageddon was off by more than 1,000 years, partly because of errors in the Masoretic text that they had used. For, the Septuagint shows that the number ONE HUNDRED was missing from several of the genealogies from Adam to Heber (Genesis Chapters 5 and 11). And I also mentioned that a person was missing from the list, Cainen! Notice the differences in the texts of Genesis 11:12: Masoretic text; Septuagint text.

Now, compare the genealogies as they were given by Luke: Luke 3:36.

So, ask yourself: How has such an obvious error been missed by all the "experts" through the centuries? Shame on you WTS (and all other "Bible Experts")!!!


The above reasons prove that the "worshiping with spirit" Father wants from us doesn't requires (from us) to know the old chronologies (I mean the "exact time" of ancient events ) because our "today" worshiping" is not depending upon that ...

what God is requiring from us - as He also is pointing to - is the "chronology of the latter days" , which is (or depends ) upon the spiritual understanding of the prophecies

http://www.biblestudents.net/forum/index...opic=127.0

in Christ,
rus virgil

05-07-2011 06:13 PM
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e-magine
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

Hi JwHVACr!
who are the translators and what are their credentials?


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He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
05-08-2011 11:31 AM
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JWHVACR
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

e-magine Wrote:
Hi JwHVACr!
who are the translators and what are their credentials?

Many have been involved (more than 50 contributors) over the past 20 years, and I have even forgotten some of the names. Some have preferred to remain anonymous due to family and religious opposition, so the names are unimportant. If a Bible translation needs credentials and can't stand on its own merit, it isn't much of a work. I am often amazed by the lack of Bible knowledge by those with the most prestigious of credentials. So, it is smarter to judge the work by its content than by supposed "credentials" of the contributors. For, it is those with the credentials who have given us all the Bible errors in the past.

Me? I'm an award-winning* writer and editor.

*Jesse Neal Award for Outstanding Journalism 1990


"Our minds don't control our beliefs, our beliefs control our minds."
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
"Buying into someone's religious, philosophical, or political teachings is the point where you've decided to allow them to do your thinking for you."
05-08-2011 11:55 AM
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isomam
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

JWHVACR Wrote:

e-magine Wrote:
Hi JwHVACr!
who are the translators and what are their credentials?

Many have been involved (more than 50 contributors) over the past 20 years, and I have even forgotten some of the names. Some have preferred to remain anonymous due to family and religious opposition, so the names are unimportant. If a Bible translation needs credentials and can't stand on its own merit, it isn't much of a work. I am often amazed by the lack of Bible knowledge by those with the most prestigious of credentials. So, it is smarter to judge the work by its content than by supposed "credentials" of the contributors. For, it is those with the credentials who have given us all the Bible errors in the past.

Me? I'm an award-winning* writer and editor.

*Jesse Neal Award for Outstanding Journalism 1990


congrats on your award, jim. :thumbup:

it isn't that your defense is inherently flawed, ... but it is exactly the same one the watchtower society used in its attempts to defend and validate its now-notorious new world translation. :thinking:


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
05-08-2011 12:54 PM
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rus virgil
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

JWHVACR Wrote:
.............................
Many have been involved (more than 50 contributors) over the past 20 years, and I have even forgotten some of the names. Some have preferred to remain anonymous due to family and religious opposition, so the names are unimportant. If a Bible translation needs credentials and can't stand on its own merit, it isn't much of a work. I am often amazed by the lack of Bible knowledge by those with the most prestigious of credentials. So, it is smarter to judge the work by its content than by supposed "credentials" of the contributors. For, it is those with the credentials who have given us all the Bible errors in the past.

..........................


I agree with this.

I agree with the fact that
I don't know who (literally) wrote the Bible (during the centuries)
I don't know when and where exactly it was written
(I know that there were more "epistles" than those collected in the "canon" , but , )
I don't know who and when have done the canon/collection of the books/epistles
I don't know how they were preserved until today

BUT I DO have confidence (trust) that That One who takes care of all His creation was able to take care and to watch until this (His) Book was available on our tables !

I am sure that He has found people with a good heart toward Him to do all these operations , plus that one of translating it - they were men who gave the best of them in order to do an accurate work.

So, I take it / The Bible / as God's Word ,and I am sure He will reward those who worked with it.
-----------------

I know also that that person who lead the operations for the NWT (to be "done" ) has done a such important thing (in altering God's Word) that he is mentioned in the Scripture (prophecy)

he is : "the (And I saw) one of his heads as though it had been smitten unto death; and his death-stroke was healed: and the whole earth wondered after the beast". Rev 13:3

"the one of heads" was N H Knorr who was "as dead" before God, because of God's sword found in Rev 22:
18. I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book:
19. and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

So, I trust in God and His Word !

In Christ,
rus virgil

05-08-2011 01:06 PM
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JWHVACR
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

Well, the award was from a long time ago (but I still write monthly).

If the NWT could stand on its own merits, no one could knock it. Dozens of Bibles list the translator's names and credentials, but that hasn't made them any better. So, if we are judging Bible by translator's credentials, then that is in the realm of "now-notorious" also.

What makes the 2001 Translation truly unique is that we have done what no one else has; We allow readers to critique it and suggest alternative working. And the problem that irritates critics is that whenever they point out a flaw or foible, we simply correct it. Fortunately, the 2001 Translation is not and probably never will be in print (online only). So, we can (and actually do) make dozens of changes and corrections daily.


"Our minds don't control our beliefs, our beliefs control our minds."
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
"Buying into someone's religious, philosophical, or political teachings is the point where you've decided to allow them to do your thinking for you."
05-08-2011 01:11 PM
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isomam
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

i'm glad to have been able to give you an opportunity to state your case more precisely. :ok:


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
05-08-2011 01:14 PM
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JWHVACR
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RE: Obvious Problems with the Masoretic Text

isomam Wrote:
i'm glad to have been able to give you an opportunity to state your case more precisely. :ok:


Thanks.

The nice thing about an up-to-date online Bible is the ability to add reference links, which gives us the amazing ability to allow further research via the internet... research that once would have taken YEARS to do! Today alone we added 30 new links to Chapters 16 through 25 of Second Kings.


"Our minds don't control our beliefs, our beliefs control our minds."
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
"Buying into someone's religious, philosophical, or political teachings is the point where you've decided to allow them to do your thinking for you."
05-08-2011 01:26 PM
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