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How could Jesus already "have other sheep"
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COMankind
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Post: #31
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

Isaiah 43:10 Wrote:

COMankind Wrote:
Was Abel saved because he had some sort of special knowledge of God that an Aborigine didn't?


Not knowledge, but faith. Faith in the same gospel, which is Christ crucified, only he looked forward in faith while we look back in faith.

"By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks." (Hebrews 11:4)


Isaiah 43 - great scripture to call out. Here's the verses before it:

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." Heb 11:1-3

This refers to a person having spiritual view, one that Abel possessed and Cain did not. This does not refer to a specific hope in a specific prophecy, it instead speaks of having faith in God (not man or creation itself) as having created the universe - something basically all tribes acknowledge.

In order to have faith in Christ crucified, it would have been necessary for Abel to have been given exclusive knowledge that an Aborigine would not have had. Then that would mean that only the Jews had the gospel, thus the exclusive venue for true faith. Which means that when Jesus said he had 'other sheep' they could only have come from the Jews...because how could anyone else be sheep if they did not have the gospel of Christ crucified?


philia, COMankind

"The tent of God is with mankind" - Rev 21:3

05-26-2011 07:15 AM
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Derek
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Post: #32
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

Hi,
Getting back to the original question:

Jesus had other sheep not of Abrahamic descent already alive at the time he uttered those words and in a few short years they became Gentile Christians.
Even during his ministry the Roman officer showed himself to be a person of faith.
regards
Derek



We go in faith, our own great weakness feeling,
And needing more each day Thy grace to know:
Yet from our hearts a song of triumph pealing,
“We rest on Thee, and in Thy Name we go.”
05-26-2011 08:09 AM
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COMankind
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Post: #33
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

I keep responding to each post - I'd better stop myself

---
What you just stated is the most certainly the common view, one that I held as well:

Jesus came to earth > started by saving those in the Judean-Roman region > left it to his Apostles and Disciples to "save" the rest of the world (because knowledge of and subsequent faith in Christ is what saves)

This is what a religion/church wants to teach. This view gives them the keys when Jesus died and left this earth. It also means that those ignorant ones without Law, with no contact with Jesus or his Apostles in the early days of Christianity were instantly condemned when Jesus died on the cross. So - the act of the sacrifice gave freedom to relatively few initially (that would grow over time) while condemning billions of those 'ignorant to Christ.'

----
What I'm starting to see instead:

Sheep were being saved all over the earth for all time > Adam & Israelites said 'no thanks, we can handle it'> Jesus came and freed them from the mess they got themselves into > Many Gentiles & Jews became enlightened by following Jesus' teaching about being spiritual-minded like 'the ancients' > those who are drawn to the Israelite method of 'teaching saves first, God second' stay trapped spiritually like the Jews.

And in this scenario, Jesus becomes the shepherd. No keys to handoff to imperfect men that are responsible for literally saving people with doctrine or gospel.

in kindness...


Derek Wrote:
Jesus had other sheep not of Abrahamic descent already alive at the time he uttered those words and in a few short years they became Gentile Christians.
Even during his ministry the Roman officer showed himself to be a person of faith.
regards


philia, COMankind

"The tent of God is with mankind" - Rev 21:3

05-26-2011 12:39 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #34
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

Thanks COMankind....I totally agree with the non-traditional position.


The "Church" has wielded a heavy hand towards any who don't believe whatever creed or doctrine it espouses, threatening all sorts of punishments and eternal damnations for doing or believing otherwise. That's not to say that all beliefs are good with God, but perhaps that there is something missing with the approach that everything must be technically correct, or share the same vernacular to be "saved".

The more I learn, the more I see that in the end, things will be ok, because this life is on "God's tab". He is not only footing the bill, He already has! Once and for all time.....and even a glimmer - a glimpse, of this reality, through direct knowledge of Jesus, or knowledge of "The Way" which bears witness to Jesus, to Light - that pervades anywhere where people are, wherever they happen to be......


Which leads me to the belief, that everyone is already saved. It's just that most people don't "know" it yet.


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


05-26-2011 01:00 PM
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Derek
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Post: #35
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

Hi CMO,
I take Jesus words purely at face value. He was talking to Jews and speaking about non Jews. I cannot see how such a view has anything to do with a churches agenda.

It is sectarianism and cultism that gives them a twisted slant to benefit the sect.
Churches have both right and wrong within their suites of doctrines.

It is no big deal, I am sure you and I are wrong in a number of matters...unless the Spirit has led you in ALL the truth! :)
regards
Derek



We go in faith, our own great weakness feeling,
And needing more each day Thy grace to know:
Yet from our hearts a song of triumph pealing,
“We rest on Thee, and in Thy Name we go.”
05-26-2011 01:27 PM
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COMankind
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Post: #36
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

Derek Wrote:
I take Jesus words purely at face value. He was talking to Jews and speaking about non Jews. I cannot see how such a view has anything to do with a churches agenda.


Exactly.

Anyway, to your point, we're always learning!


philia, COMankind

"The tent of God is with mankind" - Rev 21:3

05-26-2011 03:46 PM
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COMankind
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Post: #37
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

Beau Wetini Wrote:
The more I learn, the more I see that in the end, things will be ok, because this life is on "God's tab".

Which leads me to the belief, that everyone is already saved. It's just that most people don't "know" it yet.


You always have very loving sentiments Beau, very encouraging!
I kind of equate it to me being a spiritual orphan. What would I do to get adopted into a family.


philia, COMankind

"The tent of God is with mankind" - Rev 21:3

05-26-2011 05:30 PM
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isomam
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Post: #38
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

mine in blue.

Beau Wetini Wrote:
Thanks COMankind....I totally agree with the non-traditional position.


The "Church" has wielded a heavy hand towards any who don't believe whatever creed or doctrine it espouses, threatening all sorts of punishments and eternal damnations for doing or believing otherwise.

I have often said that "religion" divides and creates contention.

Whereas, ... "spirituality" unites. and waters the field so that love can grow.


That's not to say that all beliefs are good with God,

and we have not yet reached the point in time where our grand instructor has said to us, "this is the way; walk in it." when we do reach that point, true beliefs ... the way ... and that which truly matters will become self-evident to all those manifesting humble, pliable hearts.

but perhaps that there is something missing with the approach that everything must be technically correct, or share the same vernacular to be "saved".

uuhhh, yeah!

The more I learn, the more I see that in the end, things will be ok, because this life is on "God's tab". He is not only footing the bill, He already has! Once and for all time.....and even a glimmer - a glimpse, of this reality, through direct knowledge of Jesus, or knowledge of "The Way" which bears witness to Jesus, to Light - that pervades anywhere where people are, wherever they happen to be......


Which leads me to the belief, that everyone is already saved.

or, at the very least, guaranteed (by jesus' sacrifice, remember?) the opportunity to stand on a level playing field and choose for themselves whom they will follow (christ or satan).


It's just that most people don't "know" it yet.

great post, beau!


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
05-26-2011 05:35 PM
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COMankind
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Post: #39
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

Isomam, just curious...how do you personally reconcile these two statements?

I have often said that religion" divides and creates contention.

With

and choose for themselves whom they will follow (christ or satan).

Because religion typically uses the latter idea to create division.

Oh, and "Level playing field"..great comparison. Thx.


philia, COMankind

"The tent of God is with mankind" - Rev 21:3

05-26-2011 09:27 PM
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isomam
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Post: #40
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

COMankind Wrote:
Isomam, just curious...how do you personally reconcile these two statements?

I have often said that "religion" divides and creates contention.

With

and choose for themselves whom they will follow (christ or satan).

Because religion typically uses the latter idea to create division.

Oh, and "Level playing field"..great comparison. Thx.


when i speak of "religion," i am speaking of the institutions or organizations of religion, ... not the people who are deluded by them.

if i may borrow from the language of the nwt without actually endorsing the work, i think 1 tim., chapter 3 (where paul speaks of people "having a form of godly devotion [or, worship] but proving false to its power") is a very precise expression of my concept of religion. so, all of the denominations are "forms of worship" ... but they are perverted, non-useful forms (imo). like everything else about our present predicament, god's love is so expansive that he isn't going to 'hold that against' anybody.

using watchtower religion as an example, it is the leadership (imo) that is culpable, rather than the rank and file.


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
05-27-2011 07:48 AM
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COMankind
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Post: #41
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

isomam Wrote:
[quote=COMankind]
Isomam, just curious...how do you personally reconcile these two statements?

I have often said that "religion" divides and creates contention.

With

and choose for themselves whom they will follow (christ or satan).

Because religion typically uses the latter idea to create division.

Oh, and "Level playing field"..great comparison. Thx.


Ok, so I'm with you on that one .... And wholeheartedly agree.
I guess what I'm asking, and honestly....I'm very curious to understand how you personally rationalize this because I have always struggled with it:

"Christ or Satan" - this is an intensely polarizing distinction. Are you saying follow them spiritually then? I.e. a Muslim could follow Christ? In other words, this polarity you present is precisely what Paul described at Romans 8 regarding the battle between spirit and flesh?

Or, do you feel you need to learn about what Christ did, what he went through, what he said...and THAT is how you follow him?

You clearly have an openminded view. Sometimes I think my mind goes too open, and I'm curious if you strike a balance different than me.


philia, COMankind

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05-27-2011 09:52 AM
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isomam
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Post: #42
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

COMankind Wrote:

isomam Wrote:
[quote=COMankind]
Isomam, just curious...how do you personally reconcile these two statements?

I have often said that "religion" divides and creates contention.

With

and choose for themselves whom they will follow (christ or satan).

Because religion typically uses the latter idea to create division.

Oh, and "Level playing field"..great comparison. Thx.


Ok, so I'm with you on that one .... And wholeheartedly agree.
I guess what I'm asking, and honestly....I'm very curious to understand how you personally rationalize this because I have always struggled with it:

"Christ or Satan" - this is an intensely polarizing distinction. Are you saying follow them spiritually then? I.e. a Muslim could follow Christ? In other words, this polarity you present is precisely what Paul described at Romans 8 regarding the battle between spirit and flesh?

Or, do you feel you need to learn about what Christ did, what he went through, what he said...and THAT is how you follow him?

You clearly have an openminded view. Sometimes I think my mind goes too open, and I'm curious if you strike a balance different than me.


i think 'flesh vs. spirit' in an excellent way of describing it. of course, i must quickly add that so many have only ever known the 'flesh.' again, this discussion would be rather superfluous without acknowledging the relevant time period. we are not now on that 'level playing field.' when we get there (millennium), then the choice will confront all.


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
05-27-2011 09:59 AM
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Isaiah 43:10
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Post: #43
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

COMankind Wrote:
Isaiah 43 - great scripture to call out. Here's the verses before it:

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." Heb 11:1-3

This refers to a person having spiritual view, one that Abel possessed and Cain did not. This does not refer to a specific hope in a specific prophecy, it instead speaks of having faith in God (not man or creation itself) as having created the universe - something basically all tribes acknowledge.


No sir, we're not going to stop with the first three verses of Hebrews 11 and jump to a conclusion. Remember, that is how the org. did things. Let's shake that old habit and read the whole chapter.

1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. [Think about this when reading this chapter--what things gave them this assurance?]

2 For by it [by what? Faith.] the men of old gained approval.

Then starts the Hebrews Hall of Faith--

By faith we (understand)...
By faith Abel (offered)...
By faith Enoch (was taken up, for he obtained)...

6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

By faith Noah (prepared)...
By faith Abraham (obeyed)...
By faith Abraham (lived)...
By faith Sarah (received, because she considered)

13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

14-16 are awesome, but I'm trying to conserve space

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

18 it was he to whom it was said, "In Isaac your descendants shall be called."

19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

By faith Isaac (blessed)
By faith Jacob (blessed and worshiped)
By faith Joseph (made mention and gave orders)
By faith Moses (was hidden; refused, choosing)

26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

By faith Moses (left, endured, kept)
By faith they (passed)
By faith the walls (fell down)
By faith Rahab the harlot (welcomed; did not perish)
32-38 (More people; more verbs)

39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,

(1) Now, having read the whole chapter, was their faith in God as having created the universe, or was their faith in what was promised?

(2) Was "what was promised" a specific prophecy? Who is named in this chapter as the one who had received the promises (including the BIG "what was promised")? (v17)

See Genesis 12:3: "And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

And Genesis 18:18: "Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed"

Abraham's faith was so great in the promised Messiah who was to come from his seed (not just any seed, but Isaac), that he was willing to obey God and sacrifice Isaac. So great was his faith in the promise of God that he knew, beyond shadow of a doubt, that if he killed Isaac, God would raise him back to life. He even said to the young men who accompanied him and Isaac, "We will worship and return to you." (Gen. 22:5)

This was God's provision for the righteousness of the people of the Old Covenant--faith in Christ, the promised Messiah. *Well, either that or keep every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law, knowing that if you chose to live by the Law, you are guaranteed to be judged by it (same as today). But, really, the whole reason the Law exists is to prove to us that we cannot keep it; we stand in need of a Savior.

But your concern appears to be for the "bush people" (for example, the Aborigines). I'll attempt to answer that concern in another post.

Blessings,
peacelily

05-28-2011 01:14 AM
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gogh
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Post: #44
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

Hi Isaiah 43:10

Thank you for presenting your thoughts on important (imo) topics.

Re: "But, really, the whole reason the Law exists is to prove to us that we cannot keep it; we stand in need of a Savior."

Scripture indicates some could be saved...

(1 Corinthians 9:22) "To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, that I might by all means save some."

(1 Timothy 4:16) "Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Stay by these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you."


(...a couple of scriptures that came to mind...)


Christian love and appreciation,

gogh


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
05-28-2011 01:42 AM
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Isaiah 43:10
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Post: #45
RE: How could Jesus already "have other sheep"

Hi gogh,

It's wonderful to be reading your input on these threads again! I popped out of here for a long time this time, and I missed it.

I think I understand what you're getting at; please correct me if I'm wrong.

gogh Wrote:
Scripture indicates some could be saved...

(1 Corinthians 9:22) "To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, that I might by all means save some."

(1 Timothy 4:16) "Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Stay by these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you."


In other words, some but not all? And there will be those who do not listen? If that is the case, I'm definitely in agreement. There are Scriptures that indicate not all will be saved.

Warm Christian love,
peacelily

05-28-2011 02:43 AM
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