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Papal Claims Of Authority
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #16
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Interpretum Wrote:

Quote:
Sure the Pope can say all those things however, I do not think he could get anywhere near the actual Christian Temple, let alone enter it.

One Billion people follow the Pope because they have not read the bible.

If they had read the bible then they should immediately see that it has nothing to do with Christianity.


You're right, and that is why it is the "man of lawlessness", the "son of destruction".
It is an IMPOSTER, as scripture implies... horns like a LAMB, but speaking as a DRAGON.


Interpretum,

I am going to have to guess that you really did not understand what I posted above.

According to scripture the man of lawlessness, son of destruction DOES enter the Christian Temple.


In my opinion the Roman Catholic religion is a dog and pony show manufactured by Satan to mislead the "called ones".

The deception seems to be working really well.


In Christ

abe


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Post: #17
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Hi COMankind

COMankind Wrote:
Mother Theresa lauded the pope. She was a beautiful person. How can she be condemned for being in a specific religion? "all good things come from God" Why would she have needed to leave it, if she was clearly able to love God and neighbor as a good catholic? I'm no fan of the church, but for all of its faults, it certainly has accomplished much good as well. We have all been taught to vilify them, and should be cautious. People are imperfect people.


Of course... but this is somewhat of a red herring.

I'm sure there were some nice Nazis. Does that mean I should not condemn Nazism?

Yes, I'm sure Nazim "accomplished much good as well".

So that's OK then... right?

Now, just to be clear, I'm not comparing Mother Theresa to a Nazi!

I'm simply saying that, her good deeds don't cancel out the wicked deeds of the Papacy.

Or do you really think there's an accounting book in heaven, whereby when a person is killed directly or indirectly by the Pope, that sin is balanced out by a good deed?

If you believe that, I have some indulgences to sell you.


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05-24-2011 05:19 PM
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Post: #18
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Hi COMankind

COMankind Wrote:
BTW Interpretum - your point about connecting the Papacy to prophecy is certainly understandable. Russell and Rutherford obviously grew an entire organization riding (and beating) on the backs of the Papacy.

After reading "the Finished Mystery" by Rutherford & crew, and seeing that they went so far as to identify which Popes rode as the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the marketing value of their message began to truly sink in for me.


Sure... and this is why I'm not a Russell revering Bible Student either. I think he was a very sincere man, who had a great insight into scripture... but he was also wrong on some issues.

However, Russell wasn't the first to connect Papacy to the antichrist and "little horn". That goes back at least to Luther in the early 1500's. If it wasn't for brave souls like Luther, we'd still be going to Mass every sunday, with the Bible still in Latin.


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Post: #19
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Hi ablebodiedman

ablebodiedman Wrote:
In my opinion the Roman Catholic religion is a dog and pony show manufactured by Satan to mislead the "called ones".

The deception seems to be working really well.


Precisely. Now YOU'RE getting it. Precisely as described in Daniel 7, and Revelation 13.

No wonder Rev 13 AND Rev 14 say, "Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints." (13:10, 14:12)


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05-24-2011 05:31 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #20
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi ablebodiedman

ablebodiedman Wrote:
In my opinion the Roman Catholic religion is a dog and pony show manufactured by Satan to mislead the "called ones".

The deception seems to be working really well.


Precisely. Now YOU'RE getting it. Precisely as described in Daniel 7, and Revelation 13.

No wonder Rev 13 AND Rev 14 say, "Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints." (13:10, 14:12)


Interpretum,

Yes, but the chosen ones (saints) are not going to be Roman Catholics.

Like you said above, that would be like a chosen one deciding to become a Nazi.

In my opinion, thats not going to happen.

What is my opinion?

The dog and pony show was invented so the saints would watch the show not recognizing that it was actually THEIR temple which was being undermined behind their backs while they are being entertained by the show.

The scriptures indicate that The Temple will be profaned by a son of destruction.

That Temple has absolutely nothing to do with Roman Catholicism.

After explaining that however, I also believe that its too late.

The entire Satanic deception has worked exactly as prophecied in a very spectacular way.

The house has already been broken into while everybody was watching the dog and pony show.

Matthew 24:43
“But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into.


Now do you understand?


In Christ

abe


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Post: #21
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

what happened??? :confused: where's the pony? :dontknow: did i miss him? :cry:


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05-24-2011 07:12 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Yes, but the chosen ones (saints) are not going to be Roman Catholics.


Well, you would say that, because you believe Babylon The Great = Jehovah's Witnesses. Your entire worldview revolves around a religion of 7 million members and its Governing Body.

Personally, I think Christ is slightly more expansive than this, and has had followers for a lot longer than 1931 (when "Jehovah's Witnesses" came into existence), and from more diverse groups than that Brooklyn based religion. (Remind me, how long has Brooklyn the city been around? Did Christ have no followers before the existence of Brooklyn then?)

Quote:
The dog and pony show was invented so the saints would watch the show not recognizing that it was actually THEIR temple which was being undermined behind their backs while they are being entertained by the show.


OK... and how exactly did Satan invent this system? By undermining the Christian Temple! As I will say again... the Pope emerged from WITHIN the Christian community... as the bishop, or elder, of Rome.

Please think about what I'm saying here. It's important. Christianity already started to be undermined after the passing of the apostles!

The so-called "Christian Temple" that you obsess over is simply the Christian community.

Pop quiz: What happened to the Christian community after the passing of the apostles?

Hint: Acts 20:29,30.


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05-24-2011 08:13 PM
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COMankind
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Post: #23
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Interpretum Wrote:
Of course... but this is somewhat of a red herring.

Ah, another Ray Franz shout out.

Quote:
I'm sure there were some nice Nazis. Does that mean I should not condemn Nazism?
Yes, I'm sure Nazim "accomplished much good as well".
So that's OK then... right?

First off, my point was that we shouldn't go around calling Roman Catholics the antichrist. Name names. The popes are? All of them? Really? The antichrist was not a religion or entity, it was a label for individuals that were opposed to Christ. For us to group them like "Roman Catholic Papacy" in an exercise in stereotyping, not identifying.

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." 1 john 4:1-3


There were antichrists already in the world in the first century, and more were coming. It wasn't a club, just people that went rogue and opposed. They didn't recognize Christ as coming from heaven...which the Papacy does recognize. Anyway, seems like we're stretching the definition a bit to accommodate maybe?

Quote:
I'm simply saying that, her good deeds don't cancel out the wicked deeds of the Papacy.


Of course, agreed. But didn't she follow the antichrist? Isn't she condemned for this?

"If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work. " - 2 john 1:10,11

Quote:
Or do you really think there's an accounting book in heaven, whereby when a person is killed directly or indirectly by the Pope, that sin is balanced out by a good deed?


Don't get that one. People shouldn't kill other people. They also shouldn't lie to others...because God hates lying. But forgiveness is pretty cool that way. Who am I to judge?


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ablebodiedman
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Post: #24
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Yes, but the chosen ones (saints) are not going to be Roman Catholics.


Interpretum Wrote:
Well, you would say that, because you believe Babylon The Great = Jehovah's Witnesses. Your entire worldview revolves around a religion of 7 million members and its Governing Body.


Yep, Thats why I say that.

Don't forget however, the part about nazism that you mentioned above which collaberates that a "called one" would likely not be drawn to Roman Catholicism.

Your own argument is very supportive.

Interpretum Wrote:
Personally, I think Christ is slightly more expansive than this, and has had followers for a lot longer than 1931 (when "Jehovah's Witnesses" came into existence), and from more diverse groups than that Brooklyn based religion. (Remind me, how long has Brooklyn the city been around? Did Christ have no followers before the existence of Brooklyn then?)


Yep, I also personally believe Christ has had some followers all along.

Quote:
The dog and pony show was invented so the saints would watch the show not recognizing that it was actually THEIR temple which was being undermined behind their backs while they are being entertained by the show.


Interpretum Wrote:
OK... and how exactly did Satan invent this system? By undermining the Christian Temple! As I will say again... the Pope emerged from WITHIN the Christian community... as the bishop, or elder, of Rome.


Actually it is more like Acts 20:29,30

Acts 20:30
30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

I suspect that even at the time the Roman Catholics became prevalent some isolated Christian communities remained .

Interpretum Wrote:
[quote]Please think about what I'm saying here. It's important. Christianity already started to be undermined after the passing of the apostles!


I would also agree even if you said that it started Before the passing of the Apostles.

Interpretum Wrote:
The so-called "Christian Temple" that you obsess over is simply the Christian community.


Do not agree that the entire community is the temple.

You are correct however, that I think Christians immediately prior to Jesus Christs return should be paying very close attention to the Christian Temple. According to scripture it makes the difference to whether a Christian perishes or not.

Interpretum Wrote:
Pop quiz: What happened to the Christian community after the passing of the apostles?

Hint: Acts 20:29,30.


It continued to be constantly undermined by Satan.

Immediately before Jesus Christs return however, the deception would reach the point where the actual Christian Temple is profaned by a son of destruction, the man of lawlessness.

Christians who are misled by the unrighteous deception will perish.

Am I obsessed with concern about Christians perishing?

Absolutely!


In Christ

abe


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Post: #25
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Hi COMankind

COMankind Wrote:
First off, my point was that we shouldn't go around calling Roman Catholics the antichrist.


Great point. But I didn't call Roman Catholics the antichrist.

Quote:
Name names. The popes are? All of them? Really? The antichrist was not a religion or entity, it was a label for individuals that were opposed to Christ. For us to group them like "Roman Catholic Papacy" in an exercise in stereotyping, not identifying.


OK, let me clarify. I agree with you on the concept of "antichrist".

However, more specifically, the entity in Daniel 7 known as the "small horn" IS something. It has to be identified.

I think the historical evidence points to the Papal kingdom being this "small horn", as it came out of the ten horned Roman empire, defeated three of the former Roman kingdoms, speaks "great things" and warred with the holy ones.

When Paul wrote to the Thessalonians about a "man of sin" ("man of lawlessness" NWT) who had to be revealed before the Lord's day, I think he was alluding, in part, to this prophecy in Daniel 7.

However, he didn't know the full details. He just knew the things in Daniel HAD to happen.

Unfortunately, many readers of Paul equate the "man of sin" to the antichrist... and as you correctly point out, "antichrist" was a term used for "individuals that were opposed to Christ".

Now, when we read of what this "small horn" does, it's clear it (or he) opposes Christ:

"And as for the ten horns, out of that kingdom there are ten kings that will rise up; and still another one will rise up after them, and he himself will be different from the first ones, and three kings he will humiliate. And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time." (Dan 7:24,25)

This continual harrassment and warfare against the holy ones sounds like opposition to Christ!

So while you're right that the term "antichrist" should be applied to individuals, I think it's reasonable to say that whoever or whatever this entity in Daniel is, it ACTS like an antichrist.

I'm sure there were good and bad popes individually. However, as a "horn", a political power, it has behaved like an antichrist force.

I'm sure there were good and bad Babylonian kings. However, that didn't stop God overthrowing the KINGDOM of Babylon. There were good and bad Israelite kings. That didn't stop God finally overthrowing the KINGDOM of Israel.

Quote:
Of course, agreed. But didn't she follow the antichrist? Isn't she condemned for this?


In regards to Mother Theresa, I'm sure she was a "good person", and perhaps even more of a Christian than many. However, that doesn't mean she wasn't deceived, like many others who look to the Pope or the many other saints.

I'm sure you're aware that scripture says Satan himself transforms into an angel of light? Does Satan do this to earn good credit in heaven?

No, he does it to deceive. This is my point.

Besides, we're arguing here about two different things. My comments were directed to the Papacy, not to Mother Theresa. Perhaps Mother Theresa should have heeded the following words:

"Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind." (Rev 18:4,5)

God is clearly capable of distinguishing between an INSTITUTION ("Babylon The Great") that is bloodguilty, and individuals ("my people") who may not be, but would share in the institution's plagues when it is judged, if they do not "get out" beforehand.

(Now, I personally believe this call only goes out AFTER the war of Har-Magedon, which precedes God's final judgment on "Babylon The Great".)

That is why I said talking about individual Catholics was a red herring. God's anger is directed towards the INSTITUTION, not the individual... hence the warning.

(I should also clarify that I believe Babylon The Great to be ROME, not the Catholic Church as some claim. The angel clearly tells us she represents a CITY.)

Quote:
Don't get that one. People shouldn't kill other people. They also shouldn't lie to others...because God hates lying. But forgiveness is pretty cool that way. Who am I to judge?


None of us can judge. There is only one Judge.

"For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning. That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong." (Rev 18:8)


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05-25-2011 01:41 PM
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Post: #26
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Hi Abe

What is the "fourth kingdom" in this prophecy, and what is the small horn that comes up afterwards?

“This is what he said, ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth, that will be different from all the [other] kingdoms; and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it. And as for the ten horns, out of that kingdom there are ten kings that will rise up; and still another one will rise up after them, and he himself will be different from the first ones, and three kings he will humiliate. And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time. And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally." (Dan 7:23-26)

To me, there are really only two candidates, since I believe the "fourth kingdom" is clearly the Roman empire... the "little horn" might be Nero, who definitely persecuted the holy ones for 3 1/2 years. However, since this extra horn comes up AFTER the ten horns, I think it's more likely referring to the Papal kingdom, which emerged out of the Roman empire, and after the fall of the Western empire, defeated three of the Roman kingdoms and then went on to persecute the holy ones.

How do YOU interpret this prophecy?


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05-25-2011 01:56 PM
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ablebodiedman
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Post: #27
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

What is the "fourth kingdom" in this prophecy, and what is the small horn that comes up afterwards?

“This is what he said, ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth, that will be different from all the [other] kingdoms; and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it. And as for the ten horns, out of that kingdom there are ten kings that will rise up; and still another one will rise up after them, and he himself will be different from the first ones, and three kings he will humiliate. And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time. And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally." (Dan 7:23-26)

To me, there are really only two candidates, since I believe the "fourth kingdom" is clearly the Roman empire... the "little horn" might be Nero, who definitely persecuted the holy ones for 3 1/2 years. However, since this extra horn comes up AFTER the ten horns, I think it's more likely referring to the Papal kingdom, which emerged out of the Roman empire, and after the fall of the Western empire, defeated three of the Roman kingdoms and then went on to persecute the holy ones.

How do YOU interpret this prophecy?


Interpretum,

I believe the 10 Horns are end time Apostolic men.

Potential leaders, kings of the tribes of Israel, the heads of Jacob.

Discussed in this thread:

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=7578


also in this video:







The other horn that came up amongst them is Satan.



In Christ

abe


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Post: #28
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
I believe the 10 Horns are end time Apostolic men.

Potential leaders, kings of the tribes of Israel, the heads of Jacob.

Discussed in this thread:

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=7578

...

The other horn that came up amongst them is Satan.


Thanks. I didn't have time to watch the video, but I looked at the thread.

On the meaning of these prophecies, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally, it seems very clear to me that the four beasts of Daniel 7 are the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman kingdoms... which information is revealed to us in many different and fairly obvious ways throughout the book.

However, I appreciate you have your own interpretation of these things, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

I will add one warning. I believe yours is a "private interpretation". Private interpretations, if not checked, lead to the establishment of Christian cults.


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05-25-2011 09:19 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
I believe the 10 Horns are end time Apostolic men.

Potential leaders, kings of the tribes of Israel, the heads of Jacob.

Discussed in this thread:

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=7578

...

The other horn that came up amongst them is Satan.


Thanks. I didn't have time to watch the video, but I looked at the thread.

On the meaning of these prophecies, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally, it seems very clear to me that the four beasts of Daniel 7 are the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman kingdoms... which information is revealed to us in many different and fairly obvious ways throughout the book.

However, I appreciate you have your own interpretation of these things, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

I will add one warning. I believe yours is a "private interpretation". Private interpretations, if not checked, lead to the establishment of Christian cults.



Interpretum,

Funny you should say that!

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society believe the very same interpretation that you personally believe.


In Christ

abe


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Post: #30
RE: Papal Claims Of Authority

Willa Wrote:
Amen!


I'll Amen your Amen :drinking:


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05-26-2011 12:58 AM
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