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Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?
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BruisedReed
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Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

Good morning all my beautiful family ... :rose::grouphug::heartbeat:

In the course of answering others on another topic I ended up with 3 new projects ... dah ... go figure ...

Anyway, I found this scripture and was interested in ya'lls' input on it if that is okee dokee with ya's ...

When I did a 'comparison' to other Bible versions I noticed that some of the words are used and some are not ... perhaps because of the 'very words' themselves and what it might mean or not mean ... :dontknow:

I noticed that the NWT also uses the 'shortened' version ... go figure ... so which is right ... does anyone know ...?

The scripture is of course Ephesians 5:30 ...

(NWT) 30 because we are members of his body.

(ASV) because we are members of his body.

(BBE) Because we are parts of his body.

(CEV) because we are each part of his body.

(DRB) Because we are members of him, body, of his flesh and of his bones.

(GW) We are parts of his body.

(ISV) For we are parts of his body-of his flesh and of his bones.

(KJV) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

(KJVA) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

(LITV) For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.

(MKJV) For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.


I understand that since this chapter is using the example the closeness of a married couple, and maybe even referencing Adam's words, but what I am wondering is these words supposed to be there or are they addition?

Just a wayward meandering moment with a stoopeed question ...

Luv ya's as always ... BR sheepette


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06-21-2011 09:57 AM
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Willa
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RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

Hey there you cute little sheepette! The KIT has on the Greek side -30- because-members-we are-of the-body-of him.

I don't know why those other translations make the reference to Christ's physical body, flesh and bones, because it seems to me Paul is refering to 'the body of Christ' as members of his entire congregation being spiritually fed by him, not his fleshly body.

vs 29- no one-for-sometime-the-of himself-flesh-he hated, but-he nourishes out-and-he is cherishing-it, according as-also-the-Christ-the-ecclesia,

Hope that helps.
Love ya!


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
06-21-2011 11:06 AM
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BruisedReed
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RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

Hey willa dear ... thanks ...:thumbsup:

Thannks for your reference ...

I am in the middle of such and interesting idea based on the chapter of Ephesians ... sort of a brain storming going on in my head and heart right now ...

It is sooo amazing how the scriptures continue to unfold and open up for us isn't it when our shackles have been freed ...

Once I get my thoughts and feelings in order I will try to write them down and run them by ya'll for your sounding board inut!

Back soon ... luv me :happyheart:


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06-21-2011 11:49 AM
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belongingtojah
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RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

BruisedReed Wrote:
Good morning all my beautiful family ... :rose::grouphug::heartbeat:

In the course of answering others on another topic I ended up with 3 new projects ... dah ... go figure ...

Anyway, I found this scripture and was interested in ya'lls' input on it if that is okee dokee with ya's ...

When I did a 'comparison' to other Bible versions I noticed that some of the words are used and some are not ... perhaps because of the 'very words' themselves and what it might mean or not mean ... :dontknow:

I noticed that the NWT also uses the 'shortened' version ... go figure ... so which is right ... does anyone know ...?

The scripture is of course Ephesians 5:30 ...

(NWT) 30 because we are members of his body.

(ASV) because we are members of his body.

(BBE) Because we are parts of his body.

(CEV) because we are each part of his body.

(DRB) Because we are members of him, body, of his flesh and of his bones.

(GW) We are parts of his body.

(ISV) For we are parts of his body-of his flesh and of his bones.

(KJV) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

(KJVA) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

(LITV) For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.

(MKJV) For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.


I understand that since this chapter is using the example the closeness of a married couple, and maybe even referencing Adam's words, but what I am wondering is these words supposed to be there or are they addition?

Just a wayward meandering moment with a stoopeed question ...

Luv ya's as always ... BR sheepette


Hi BRsheepete,

Interesting question. I looked it up at biblos on the parrallel tab. Scrolled down and read Matthew Henry's comments. He seemed right on as to the meaning.

Also was reminded of :

1Cor 12
12 For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although being many, are one body, so also is the Christ. 13 For truly by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.
14 For the body, indeed, is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot should say: “Because I am not a hand, I am no part of the body,” it is not for this reason no part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say: “Because I am not an eye, I am no part of the body,” it is not for this reason no part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the [sense of] hearing be? If it were all hearing, where would the smelling be? 18 But now God has set the members in the body, each one of them, just as he pleased.
19 If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now they are many members, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand: “I have no need of you”; or, again, the head [cannot say] to the feet: “I have no need of YOU.” 22 But much rather is it the case that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary, 23 and the parts of the body which we think to be less honorable, these we surround with more abundant honor, and so our unseemly parts have the more abundant comeliness, 24 whereas our comely parts do not need anything. Nevertheless, God compounded the body, giving honor more abundant to the part which had a lack, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the other members suffer with it; or if a member is glorified, all the other members rejoice with it.
27 Now YOU are Christ’s body, and members individually. 28 And God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. 29 Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they? 30 Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all are translators, are they? 31 But keep zealously seeking the greater gifts. And yet I show YOU a surpassing way.

Since the body has many parts it seems to me that the short version or the longer one would be ok.

Just a thought.

Your brother in Christ
belongingtojah


Isaih 44
5 This one will say: “I belong to Jehovah.” And that one will call [himself] by the name of Jacob, and another will write upon his hand: “Belonging to Jehovah.” And by the name of Israel one will betitle [himsel
06-21-2011 12:05 PM
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e-magine
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RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

Very cool!
The Diaglott reads, we are the body of him, [out of the flesh of him, and out of the body of him].
I believe this is speaking allegorically about how close we are to him, like a husband and wife. But we could also think of it more literally, that we are actually the flesh and bone part of of him (physical) , as opposed to the spirit part of him. Christians are like him in that we are anointed with HS, but we are still flesh, where as he is pure spirit.
He, being a spirit, can manifest a physical body at will. We, at this time, are stuck in the physical, but with a spirit nature.
...But what is Christ's will? Does he not wish to have a physical body on Earth?
Christ does, absolutly, have a fleshly full time physical body on Earth at this time, as "belongingtojah" pointed out at 1 Cor. 12!...
...This is wonderful to contemplate! It means that we are actually different members of one body, just as all the living cells in our bodies are individual human life forms belonging to one body, we all are the body of Christ. We are literally connected at the quantum level, that is, multiple positional and fully connected and part of one very large body.
...This is not as strange as it sounds. Consider, that in our bodies, at the quantum level, there is way more 'space" then there is physical matter. Yet, we don't see the space, only the matter.
...In Christ's body, the apparent distance between the individual members, (us), is inconsequential! Ignore the space and see us as Christ's flesh and bone body! Working in unity for the benefit of the whole body, just as the living cells in our individual bodies cooperate, we can understand that we are Christs flesh and bones on Earth!
...The secret of this is great! Eph 5:32!


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06-21-2011 02:46 PM
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Willa
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RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

Excellent points, brothers! :thumbsup::thumbup:


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
06-21-2011 03:19 PM
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BruisedReed
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RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

Hi br. emagine ...!

It is sooooooooooo cool isn't to think of the 'mysteries' of God and Christ and our relationship with them isn't it!!

I have been doing that all morning and afternoon in my research project (yeah another one among hundreds and growing)

I too think that this verse in Ephesians really has NOTHING to do the 'marriage' in the strictest sense ... that of a man and woman getting married in wedlock ... although certainly the principles would and should apply ...

No, I think it goes much deeper and is about CHRIST JESUS and 'OUR' relationship with HIM ...

Paul clearly seems to say this a wee bit later on in Ephesians 5:32 ...

32 This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation.

It would seem that just as Paul was familiar with the Old Testament writings where our heavenly Father compared his relationship with the nation of Israel in a 'married' context that Paul was utilizing this illustration in relation to God's son as well ...

For whatever reason this just leaped out me today and has me digging around and compiling and such ...

Just to give you a glimmer of where I am thinking ...

I got to thinking about things like this ...

WHAT exactly is a MARRIAGE ARRANGEMENT ...?

HOW would Paul and his listeners have viewed marriage, men and women back in his time period ...?

WHAT could marriage perhaps be a SYMBOL of ...?


Of course these questions have led me down a road of deep thought and possibilities ...

In a very short version of what I have so far been collecting ... here is a brief outline ... maybe some of all of your thoughts on this might lead to an interesting discussion ...

I will just state some outline thoughts with no conclusions as I haven't got that far yet anyway ... just collecting 'data' and 'personal ideas' that I put in question form to think and meditate on later ... my 'research' process is probably quite wonky to some ... ;):funnyface::blush:

If indeed the expression 'flesh and bones' are supposed to be there what could this imply for us, as we are a part of his body?

I too think that CLOSENESS is the 'key' here ... perhaps on many glorious levels that we are as of yet unaware!

It would appear that 'marriage' as we have come to know it today (a ROMANTIC JOINING of man and woman ) was not necessarily as it was viewed back then ...

In most cases, historically generallyy speaking it seems it was sort of viewed more as an ALLIANCE CONTRACT kind of thing ... a joining of properties and families together ...

So, if indeed the idea behind 'marriage' ... which is a NEW WORD ... relatively speaking of french origin I think, is an ALLIANCE or a CONTRACT ... then could marriage be symbolic of ...

FAITHFULNESS
UNION
BINDING and LIFETIME CONTRACT
CHANGE

I add CHANGE because doesn't the female change WHERE SHE LIVES ... and even CHANGES HER NAME to her 'husbanly owner's name'?

Which of course got me thinking about the 'twinkling of an eye' change from 'physical to spiritual' ...

Then we have another reference that Paul made to 'marriage' and our relationship with Christ in 2Co 11:2 ...

(ASV) For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy: for I espoused you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

(BBE) For I have a very great care for you: because you have been married by me to one husband, and it is my desire to give you completely holy to Christ.

(LITV) For I am jealous over you with a jealousy of God. For I have promised you to one Man, to present you a pure virgin to Christ.


Interestingly the word for 'promised', 'betrothed', 'espoused' is ...

G718
ἁρμόζω
harmozō
har-mod'-zo
From G719; to joint, that is, (figuratively) to woo (reflexively to betroth): - espouse.

G719 ἁρμός
harmos har-mos'


From the same as G716; an articulation (of the body): - joint.

G716 ἅρμα
harma har'-mah


Probably from G142 (perhaps with G1 (as a particle of union) prefixed); a chariot (as raised or fitted together (compare G719)): - chariot.


When I saw that 'betrothing' was illustrated by a 'joint' it got me thinking on Adam's words at Gen. 2:23 ...

This is at last bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh.. . .

Why you say ...?

Well, it is JOINTS that HOLD THE BONES TOGETHER ... so that they are ABLE to MOVE to accomplish whatever it is that they purpose ...

Soooo ...

That led me to thinking how our being 'one' or 'united' in Christ is likened to a 'joint' ... something that is NEEDED WITHIN THE BODY to make it MOVE ...

And since Paul says WE MAKE UP CHRIST BODY ... we are thus
'married' or 'joined' to him rather like joints to a bone as it were maybe ...

Even when we look at the Hebrew meaning of the word BONES I found that interesting as well and of course have been pondering the possible applications ...

H6106 עצם
‛etsem eh'-tsem

From H6105; a bone (as strong); by extension the body; figuratively the substance, that is, (as pronoun) selfsame: - body, bone, X life, (self-) same, strength, X very.

H6105 עצם
‛âtsam aw-tsam'

A primitive root; to bind fast, that is, close (the eyes); intransitively to be (causatively make) powerful or numerous; denominatively (from H6106) to crunch the bones: - break the bones, close, be great, be increased, be (wax) mighty (-ier), be more, shut, be (-come, make) strong (-er).


In looking at this definition I got to thinking that indeed were a BOUND TO CHRIST ... and that this 'binding' is to be an EVERLASTING one ... one that will make us STRONGER in so many ways won't it!!!

I'm so sorry ... I just got carried away in looking over some of my notes and questions to self ... I will stop now ...

Luv ya's BR :sheepy:: bouncyhearts:


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06-21-2011 03:34 PM
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e-magine
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Post: #8
RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

Yes, I can see that we individual members are joined together at the quantum level so that we can function as a unit. The marriage alliance is much more than physical, so is our being united as Christ's body.
..the change to a new creation has not happened yet, we are still in the betrothed stage.


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06-21-2011 04:02 PM
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Isaiah 43:10
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RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

Wow--this is a fascinating thread! :thumbsup:

After reading the first post, my mind also went straight to Genesis 2:23.

I also wonder if this has anything to do with the reason Jesus stressed that he was flesh and bone at Luke 24:39: "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

I also thought of Job saying: "Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews." (Job 10:11) And, of course, there's the beautiful prophecy in Ezekiel 37 about the dry bones.

As Christians, we are to put on the Lord Jesus Christ; we clothe ourselves in his righteousness (Rom. 13:14), but we still long to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven (2 Cor. 5:2-3).

It also reminded me of Ephesians 4:15-16: But speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

06-23-2011 02:57 AM
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NewTruth
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RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

Anyone have an idea.. when I Cor. 15 says:

Flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom? I'm thinking it means, that it is not our flesh, but our spirit that inherits the kingdom.

06-23-2011 12:14 PM
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BruisedReed
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RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

Hi Isa ... too long time no see ... so nice to see you again ...!

Your words and even our sister's NewTruth's words brought to mind these scriptures ...

Such food for thought to consider it is mind boogling and heart stirring for me in so many ways my brother and sister!

What I find so fascinating is that Jesus said WE not only IN HIM ... but that he said HE would be IN US!

That we are BOTH able to be PHYSICAL beings as well as HEAVENLY or SPIRITUAL ...

IMHO the apostle Paul spoke more in the nature of 'spiritual' aspect of what we can BECOME than the 12 apostles ... speaking a lot about the 'mysteries' that he says understood because our Lord revealed them to him in various ways ...

Hence the scriptre in Corinthians can take on a much deeper meaning to us than we are used to thinking since, for most of us, we haven't thought in the lines of our being gifted with 'spiritual life', but being confined in our 'physical bodies' here on earth ...

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 ...

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. 48 As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one.

I never thought of that scripture in Job in connection with idea but I think it has merit ... for doesn't even NOW our 'flesh' CLOTHE that which is 'spiritual' ... for do we not have a 'spirit' side to our human nature ... or how else could we serve our God in SPIRIT AND TRUTH ...

Jesus showed that we must also have a 'spiritual nature' or 'side' to ourselves even NOW for he reminded us that we had to 'live not on 'literal bread' alone ... but on the 'spiritual food' from above ...

That is perhaps WHY our HEARTS CLEAVE to our God and his Son ... that we yearned to JOINED WITH them ... because that which was MADE IN GOD'S IMAGE is calling out to them and they to us ... so as to be ONE WITH THEM and each other.

When it comes to your thought NewTruth I couldn't help but think that the angels in their TRUE SPIRIT FORM cannot inhabit our earthly realm that we can 'see' them ... but they can 'materialize' so as to interact in whichever way fulfills God's purpose ...

Who is to say, that when WE are 'perfected' won't be able to do the same? It would seem there are even indicators in the scriptures that man had that gift to do so perhaps to show this was possible when we consdier the experience of Paul who said he didn't know if he was in BODY of SPIRIT when he went to the third heaven ...

So, IMHO for us to be dogmatic or rigid and say something just cannot be so ... I think that we may need to have a 'waiting on Jehovah' attitude in the idea of what is to really be ... for we just don't know what will be do we since it hasn't happened yet ... and we haven't seen perfection yet so we don't know all that a perfect man is capable of ...

It would seem that Adam and a close association with his heavenly Father ... that they interacted with each other on some level ... perhaps Eden was more MORE than just a garden ... but a place where spirit could meet flesh in some unique way ... and hence had to be guarded very carefully after sin came about ... and that perhaps that is also what the 'New Jerusalem ... ALSO WALLED ... is about ...?

Anyway, enough speculation and on the spot feelings and ideas ...

Luv to all ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:


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06-23-2011 02:16 PM
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Isaiah 43:10
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Post: #12
RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

Hi Sis BR! :hibye:

My youngest kiddo is now 3, which hopefully helps to explain my long-time absence. He's full-speed-ahead all day long, and even now it's difficult to find time to come online.

That last post of yours was wonderful!

BruisedReed Wrote:
I never thought of that scripture in Job in connection with idea but I think it has merit ... for doesn't even NOW our 'flesh' CLOTHE that which is 'spiritual' ... for do we not have a 'spirit' side to our human nature ... or how else could we serve our God in SPIRIT AND TRUTH ...


This, combined with Sis NewTruth's question reminded me of another passage from Job. (Every time I read that book, I find something new that gives me chills!)

Job 19:25-27: "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God; Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another. My heart faints within me!"

I believe this ties in with Rev. 22:4 (they will see His face) and Mat. 5:8 (Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God).

It also seems to destroy the Watchtower's version of the "resurrection," where Jehovah creates a different body from his memory and implants it with "the same characteristics, the same distinctive qualities, the same memory, the same life-pattern" (i.e., a "cloning" of sorts).

06-23-2011 02:54 PM
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Isaiah 43:10
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Post: #13
RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

NewTruth Wrote:
Anyone have an idea.. when I Cor. 15 says:

Flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom? I'm thinking it means, that it is not our flesh, but our spirit that inherits the kingdom.


Hi Sis NewTruth! :hibye:

IMO, the WTS often interprets things in scripture meant to be figurative (or symbolic) as literal, and vice versa. This suits their ends, but it causes much confusion.

In their interpretation of “flesh and blood” as literal, they cause their members to focus in so hard on those words and the Watchtower argumentation that they fail to see the bigger picture of what the words represent.

I think it's important to consider how these words are used elsewhere in scripture:

Matthew 16:13-17: “Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee but my Father who is in heaven.” (Is this speaking of the physical flesh, or the corrupt nature of man not revealing Christ's identity to Peter?)

Galatians 1:16: “Straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood.... “ (Is Paul referring here to literal, physical flesh, or rather to corrupt and sinful man?)

Ephesians 6:12: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood." (This scripture could be interpreted either way. But Christians do not literally, physically wrestle with their opposition, so Paul is not referring to the physical body. Our fight is also not against the sinful, corrupt nature of other men but with the spiritual forces of evil which influence and appeal to man's sinful nature).

Based on the above, I would conclude that “flesh and blood” in 1 Cor. 15:50 is synonymous with “sinful man,” or man's "sinful, corrupt nature."

If you read on a little further, you find: "...and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality." (v. 52-53)

We also know the Bible says about Christians: "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." (1 John 3:2)

It would appear that God does not subtract anything from, but rather adds something to perishable, mortal man to make us imperishable and suitable for life in the new heavens and the new earth. (In evangelical terminology, this is referred to as "glorification" or our "glorified bodies" being like Jesus' own post-resurrection "glorified body.")

Just my two cents, and I hope it helps answer your question!

06-23-2011 03:26 PM
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BruisedReed
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Post: #14
RE: Eph. 5:30 ... flesh and bones?

I'm so happy for you in the gift of children! They sure do keep us busy when they are young and we can learn so much from them and they learn from us!

Out of the mouths of babes is more than just 'words' ... for doesn't it always seem to touch our hearts and minds in way to make us think and feel?!

Last night after I got home from shopping and picking up some MORE bibles and other aids (they give such books for 'free' at this place!) I was looking through a parallel Bible that had lots of cool stuff and was searching through one of the indexes that referenced 'old wineskins/ new wineskins ... new garments to old garments ... and couldn't help but wonder ... as Jesus told the pharisses earlier ...

Think on it ...

'Could' this also be a reference to our change from 'physical to spiritual' and not just in the 'spiritual' sense but the 'literal' sense as well?

It was just a passing thought ... and one I haven't yet delved into to see if it is so or not ... but I am planning on it and have already started a word doc on it ... :post:;):whistle:

Luv, hugs and kisses to you and your family dear brother ... your sis in the faith BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:


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06-24-2011 02:18 PM
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