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'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???
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BruisedReed
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'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

Good afternoon all ...

I have been thinking, pondering, meditating, praying, for many months now on a topic that no doubt some may consider 'controversial' ... (in light of how those with a witness would view it) but I thought that I would put it up and see what other thoughts and information others might have.

I have sort of touched on the idea before loosely but I thought that maybe a specific topic might help me out in my reasoning on this ...

Sooooo ...

Do you think it is 'possible' ... and I said 'possible' not 'is' ... that there is MORE to the 'Holy Spirit' than we might have thought ...

That there might be TWO different connotations to it ...

1. Actually being the 'power' of God ...
2. Being an actual SPIRIT person ...
3. 'Could' this ... and here is where some controversy might come in because of how and who we view as being in heaven ... God's wife?


Anyway ... I was just wondering ...

Hopefully this topic won't stumble anyone or anything ...

Luv as always ... your sis BR :sheepy::bouncyhearts:


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06-25-2011 02:32 PM
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llee
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Post: #2
RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

Good morning dear sis:hibye:

Praise Jah and Jesus we people!!!

Thank you for "seeing" and sharing what's been a "feeling" of mine for a few months, also. It makes perfect sense to me to complete the original heavenly family; Father, Son, Mom/Mum:cheer::cheer::cheer:

Much food for thought:eat:

Onward and Upward:grouphug::heartbeat:

sis


Psalms 68:11 "Jehovah himself gives the saying;
The women telling the good news are a large army."

"Every civilization learns what it needs to know, and the next one forgets it." Gil Grissom CSI


06-25-2011 02:49 PM
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e-magine
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RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

Hi Br,
..Well, There is a lot unknown, but here's a thought. The Logos is the first "creation?" by YHWH. So That would mean that the HS would have to be = to YHWH, or, that the Logos created the HS, or, that the Logos is = to the HS, or, that the HS is a manifestation of the nature of what both the Logos and YHWH are. In other words, we could say that the HS is "God", but not all of both of them, just a part..


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He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
06-25-2011 02:53 PM
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BruisedReed
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RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

Hey sis LLEE ... well I'm glad I'm not the only one!! whew ... :D

I do have some scriptures I have been thinking on in regard to this thought, but thought I'd try to bring them out in itty bitty form so that I don't jump the gun or misunderstand or missapply them ...

Hi br. emagine ...

Well, I am trying to understand what you are saying ... not quite sure I 'got' it though ... so perhaps I'll add another thought and see if it is in line with yours ...

You said ... and correctly so ... that the logos was 'created' by his Father in whichever way that process began ...

You are I think referring to that familiar scripture to us all in Col. 1:15 ...

(ASV) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(DRB) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(ESV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(GNB) Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.

(GW) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.


Don't you just love the word ...

FIRST ...
BORN ...

Now when we look at the Greek word for 'firstborn' we see this as the meaning ...

G4416 πρωτοτόκος

prōtotokos pro-tot-ok'-os


From G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): - firstbegotten (-born).

G4413 πρῶτος
prōtos pro'-tos


Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.

G5088 τίκτω
tiktō tik'-to


A strengthened from of a primary word τέκω tekō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.


The scriptures were given to us to try to help us live in such a way that we will receive our inheritance ... everlasting life ... but also IMHO to try to give us a glimpse of heavenly things ... something that our Lord said would be very hard for humans to do since we had such a hard time to understand things of our 'own nature' ... being of earth and human ...

Maybe one of the problems is what we even think of when we think of 'heaven' ... for do not most think of it as just a place of beauty and serenity free from the problems we now face here ...

But when I think of heaven I do not think of it that way ... for the scriptures seem to indicate that not everything is perfect up there ...

YET ...

For if it were Satan wouldn't have access ... nor would there have to be a 'war' where he and his followers would fight and be cast out ... and if there is ... for lack of a better way of saying it ... a struggle between good and bad going on there right now ... well wouldn't that have to cause people to rethink what they may think ...?

The scriptures say there are FAMILIES (plural) in heaven ... and since God woudn't mislead us into thinking something beyond our realm of understanding even if it is only to a point ... then wouldn't that 'seem' to indicate that they have perhaps a 'family arrangement' at least 'similar' to ours?

Why couldn't the firstBORN of creation have had parent(s) ...? That wouldn't take away from the fact that he was still FIRSTBORN from all things created after him would it ...?

Wouldn't he still be the FIRSTBORN SON ...

The FIRST of the invisible children of God, and whichever roles and positions they were to have in heaven ...

Is this making any sense so far ... or have I just muddied the question in the trying to understand where you're coming from?

I'll stop there for now ...

Luv BR :sheepette:


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06-25-2011 03:25 PM
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BruisedReed
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Post: #5
RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

But now if I may ... :blush::love:

Back to 'spirit' being a 'force' ... 'power' ... or 'entity' (sentient being) ... or whatever we may like to 'it' ...

I found the scripture at Rom 8:27 very interesting ... especially when I looked at the rendering of it in other Bible translations other than the NWT and the meanings of the word therein ...

Perhaps I'll just put it up without comment and see what ya'll think ...?

NWT of Rom. 8:27 ...

27 Yet he who searches the hearts knows what the meaning of the spirit is, because it is pleading in accord with God for holy ones.

Now here are how other translations render this verse ...


(ASV) and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

(BBE) And he who is the searcher of hearts has knowledge of the mind of the Spirit, because he is making prayers for the saints in agreement with the mind of God.

(CEV) All of our thoughts are known to God. He can understand what is in the mind of the Spirit, as the Spirit prays for God's people.

(DRB) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what the Spirit desireth: because he asketh for the saints according to God.

(KJVA) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

(LITV) But the One searching the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He petitions on behalf of the saints according to God.

(MKJV) And He searching the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

(RV) and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Did you notice what wasL LEFT OUT in the NWT ... and the ramifications that this would mean in understanding?

Here is what the Greek word means ...

G5427 φρόνημα
phronēma fron'-ay-mah

From G5426; (mental) inclination or purpose: - (be, + be carnally, + be spiritually) mind (-ed).

G5426 φρονέω
phroneō fron-eh'-o


From G5424; to exercise the mind, that is, entertain or have a sentiment or opinion; by implication to be (mentally) disposed (more or less earnestly in a certain direction); intensively to interest oneself in (with concern or obedience): - set the affection on, (be) care (-ful), (be like-, + be of one, + be of the same, + let this) mind (-ed, regard, savour, think.

G5424 φρήν
phrēn frane

Probably from an obsolete φράω phraō (to rein in or curb; compare G5420); the midrif (as a partition of the body), that is, (figuratively and by implication of sympathy) the feelings (or sensitive nature; by extension [also in the plural] the mind or cognitive faculties): - understanding.


Now when we look at the word for SPIRIT in light of the definitions above, well to me anyway, it opens up some tremondously wonderful thought proecesses ...

G4151 πνεῦμα
pneuma pnyoo'-mah

From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

G5590 ψυχή
psuchē psoo-khay'


From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


Now, I will leave this for ya'll to comment on if you like ... in my quest for 'understanding' ...

Luv as always ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:


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06-25-2011 04:38 PM
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NewTruth
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RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

Hi BR and Emagine:

Friends... I think the Logos @ John 1 is: The Word of God, activated by the Holy Spirit...

I don't think the Holy Spirit was Jesus, in the beginning ... Now, Jesus is the Word of God.. as he earned that title... (but wasn't always)

BR.. the HS could be an extension of God.. and actually a part of God.. as when he or it enters into a righteous person.. Then we have life within ourselves....

06-25-2011 04:38 PM
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Yannis
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Post: #7
RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

NewTruth Wrote:
Now, Jesus is the Word of God.. as he earned that title... (but wasn't always)


What makes you say that NewTruth?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
06-25-2011 07:17 PM
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e-magine
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Post: #8
RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

Hi Yannis!
.I think also that the Logos means "Word" of God.

BR, if we take "first born" literally it would have to refer to Jesus' birth from Mary. He was first of the new creations born of a woman.
If we take it as first creation by God then there can be no other creation before him, so, no wife or mother, only YHWH. If the HS was used in that creation of the Logos, then the HS has to be part of what YHWH is, and I believe it is. Therefore, we can say that the HS IS sentient, but not seperate from the Father. The Father and the Logos are of the same nature, god nature, so the Logos also has HS. As the man Jesus, I'm not sure though, because he had to return to the father before he could send the HS helper.


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Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
06-25-2011 07:38 PM
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Yannis
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Post: #9
RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

e-magine Wrote:
Hi Yannis!
I think also that the Logos means "Word" of God.


Hi e-magine, I too believe that the Logos means Word of God, John 1:1. My question to NewHeart was why she feels that Christ wasnt always the Word of God.

John 1 specifically states that the Word was with God in the beginning, and that the Word was made flesh in the form of Christ.

Seems to me that Christ was/is/always will be the Word or Logos of God.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
06-25-2011 09:30 PM
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e-magine
Disciple of Newness


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Post: #10
RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

Yannis Wrote:

e-magine Wrote:
Hi Yannis!
I think also that the Logos means "Word" of God.


Hi e-magine, I too believe that the Logos means Word of God, John 1:1. My question to NewHeart was why she feels that Christ wasnt always the Word of God.

John 1 specifically states that the Word was with God in the beginning, and that the Word was made flesh in the form of Christ.

Seems to me that Christ was/is/always will be the Word or Logos of God.


exactly


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He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
06-25-2011 10:22 PM
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NewTruth
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Post: #11
RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???



Hi Emagine Yannis,

Here is the definition according to Wiki:

Logos ( /ˈloʊɡɒs/, UK /ˈlɒɡɒs/, or US /ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Greek: λόγος logos) is an important term in philosophy, psychology, rhetoric and religion. Originally a word meaning "a ground", "a plea", "an opinion", "an expectation", "word," "speech," "account," "reason,"[1][2] it became a technical term in philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus (ca. 535–475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge.[3]

In the beginning, God spoke and there was light... When God spoke, things were created. God created the heavens and earth.. right?
Then God sent the full embodiment of his spirit and placed it in the man, Jesus @ his baptism... And Christ officially became the son of God in the fullest sense.. Then he became the word of God.. IMO.
Why would he have been the Word before then??????

06-26-2011 12:38 AM
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Yannis
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Post: #12
RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

NewTruth Wrote:
In the beginning, God spoke and there was light... When God spoke, things were created. God created the heavens and earth.. right?


God created through His Word which is why Jesus can be said to have created ALL things.

Col 1:16, "For in him (Jesus) all things were created"

John 1:3, "Through him (Word) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."


NewTruth Wrote:
Then God sent the full embodiment of his spirit and placed it in the man, Jesus @ his baptism... And Christ officially became the son of God in the fullest sense.. Then he became the word of God.. IMO.


Jesus has ALWAYS been Son of God, John 3:16.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God."


NewTruth Wrote:
Why would he have been the Word before then??????


Because the Bible says so,

John 1:1-2, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

John 1:14, "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. "

The Scriptures are clear, Jesus had a pre-human, pre-beginning existence as the Word.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
06-26-2011 11:12 AM
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Measurer
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Post: #13
RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

BruisedReed Wrote:
Do you think it is 'possible' ... and I said 'possible' not 'is' ... that there is MORE to the 'Holy Spirit' than we might have thought ...

That there might be TWO different connotations to it ...

1. Actually being the 'power' of God ...
2. Being an actual SPIRIT person ...
3. 'Could' this ... and here is where some controversy might come in because of how and who we view as being in heaven ... God's wife?


Anyway ... I was just wondering ...


Sis BR, :hibye:

I have essentially held to the Society’s ‘teachings’ on the Father, Son and Holy Spirit since departing from the Org. However, although I've reached no absolute conclusions to the contrary, I thought I might share a couple of points from material I’ve recently been reading. The writer points out:

"The Holy Spirit is spoken of as having understanding and a power of knowledge is ascribed to the Holy Spirit."

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

"The Holy Spirit has a will".

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

"Power is ascribed to the Holy Spirit."

Rom 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

The author continues, “Wherever you find understanding, will and power you must also find an existence. It cannot be a mere attribute. It cannot be a metaphor. It cannot be a personified influence. It must be a person."

Simply for your consideration! :coffeeread:

Measurer :hibye:

06-26-2011 12:14 PM
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Derek
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RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

Hi Bruised Reed,
Writing to Wayne last October I wrote the following on this subject.
regards
Derek

Hi Wayne,
I once heard a member of a Open Brethren church I used to attend refer to the HS as the 'shy' member of the trinity!

I am quite happy with the HS relationship to the Father in actually accomplishing his will. The Father appears not to act wrt to Earth, humans and universal creation without the HS acting.

Clearly there is a 'matrix' of Father, Son and Holy Spirit at work in the Father's work of creation and restoration.

Perhaps this is a totally inadequate analogy that I wrote in a moment of weakness some time ago but it may help you see how I see it. :)

The question I keep asking myself is; what conclusion would I have come to from the plain reading of the texts if I had not been a JW in the past?

The fact that the HS groans and prays for the believer, when we know not what to pray for, is indicative of something more deep and personal going on than the JW 'active force' argument.

I keep thinking of an human body analogy! Poor analogy though - but here goes...
In the one body there are different organs. Eg. Brain and heart for eg - discrete organs! Like the two entities involved in the Divine 'matrix'! We also have blood - it is a fluid organ that flows through all the other organs! The Holy Spirit seems to be somewhat like the blood - a spiritually fluid entity!

At times he seems to be a 'discreet' entity but he is also is flowing out from and between God and Christ. I really can't get a handle on it - there is much more going on than what we humans can comprehend and it defies simplistic explanations.

BTW, I cannot see any reference to worship of the HS in scripture and therefore I cannot sing verses of hymns that refer to HS worship!
The HS cannot be less Holy than the Holy God he proceeds from.



We go in faith, our own great weakness feeling,
And needing more each day Thy grace to know:
Yet from our hearts a song of triumph pealing,
“We rest on Thee, and in Thy Name we go.”
06-26-2011 12:58 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #15
RE: 'MORE' than just a 'force' or 'power'???

Im guessing if the Holy Spirit is an actual person, then He cant be as "Great" as God or Jesus, as no reference to worshipping the Holy Spirit is mentioned.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit is more like an angel.


I have no idea really....


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


06-26-2011 01:07 PM
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