Latest News: The Great Trubulation


Pages (15): « First < Previous 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 Next > Last »
Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts
Author Message
Seraphim
Member


Posts: 2,075
Group: Registered
Joined: Jan 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #61
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

You can say the words but you don't know the tune!

07-04-2011 09:04 PM
Find all posts by this user
Beau Wetini
Me and my boy at the beach!


Posts: 2,194
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Aug 2010
Status: Offline
Post: #62
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

LOL Abe....brother - the Watchtower can only fill Babylon's description, if you have a huge theological dependancy upon it, where everything else you believe also hinges on its playing a central role in prophecy. You have far too much to lose if you are wrong - hence, you will never see anything differently. In Psychology, its called Secondary Gain.


In the interests of not feeding this dependancy any further, I shall disgress from rebutting any points you make - in which you shall interpret this to mean, that you are making a solid case that cannot be dismantled. And that is ok.

We must all believe what we must believe.


Cheers bro! :D


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


07-05-2011 01:37 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
isomam
In Spite of Many and Much


Posts: 2,239
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #63
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Beau Wetini Wrote:
LOL Abe....brother - the Watchtower can only fill Babylon's description, if you have a huge theological dependency upon it, where everything else you believe also hinges on its playing a central role in prophecy. You have far too much to lose if you are wrong - hence, you will never see anything differently. In Psychology, its called Secondary Gain.


In the interests of not feeding this dependancy any further, I shall disgress from rebutting any points you make - in which you shall interpret this to mean, that you are making a solid case that cannot be dismantled. And that is ok.

We must all believe what we must believe.


Cheers bro! :D


wise insights, my young brother. :thumbup: when it comes to being harsh on abe, i probably used to be the worst offender. then -- finally -- i realized that he is stll crippled as a prisoner of the watchtower. in fact, now even more so than when he was an active member. only holy spirit will determine when it is time for those massive scales to fall from his eyes. sadly, the "tree" we know as ablebodiedman still needs the "bark" known as watchtower theology covering and protecting it/him. it must be protecting him from some deeper issues which would otherwise endanger him even more greatly. he deserves our pity, not our ridicule (or rebuttal), just as you say.

in the meantime, ... he ain't heavy, he's our brother.


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
07-05-2011 07:52 AM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #64
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Beau Wetini Wrote:
LOL Abe....brother - the Watchtower can only fill Babylon's description, if you have a huge theological dependancy upon it, where everything else you believe also hinges on its playing a central role in prophecy. You have far too much to lose if you are wrong - hence, you will never see anything differently. In Psychology, its called Secondary Gain.


In the interests of not feeding this dependancy any further, I shall disgress from rebutting any points you make - in which you shall interpret this to mean, that you are making a solid case that cannot be dismantled. And that is ok.

We must all believe what we must believe.


Cheers bro! :D


Beau,

Yes, I do believe the Watchtower plays a central role in prophecy and have given plenty of good reasons why, all supported by scripture.

I have carefully read and examined what all the other posters in this thread think about Babylon the Great including your own thoughts.

The main objections that I can find to what I believe are:

1/ The Watchtower does not include "ALL" the earth.
2/ The tongues (or languages) are a language of the flesh that everyone speaks.
3/ The Watchtower is too insignificant to fulfill bible prophecy on a grand scale.

If we are on a bible research forum then I should be able to voice my beliefs like everyone else and if those beliefs are solid also overcome any objections.

If I cannot overcome the objections then perhaps I should take another look at what it is I personally believe.

On the other hand if you cannot overcome the beliefs which I stated and supported above then perhaps you should reconsider what it is that you believe.

What do I have to lose?

Thats a good question!

When Jesus Christ judges me I will tell him what I believed and the reasons why.

If he asks me about Babylon the Great then much of what I believe is recorded here.

I am simply using the words he wrote in the bible and measuring those words against what I see happening in the world.

Not only that, I am also sharing and testing what I see with Christian brothers on a bible discussion forum.

I have shared my strong convictions by writing a book, several blogs and making many videos.

I have done that also because of what Jesus Christ said in the bible.

I would not want Jesus Christ to condemn me for burying a silver talent.

Yes, I often consider your question above about what I have to lose.

I measure the concern it raises by asking myself the question; "what will I say to Jesus Christ when he judges me?"


In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
07-05-2011 11:03 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Seraphim
Member


Posts: 2,075
Group: Registered
Joined: Jan 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #65
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Just don't say to him I did many powerful works in your name. :)

07-05-2011 11:28 AM
Find all posts by this user
Beau Wetini
Me and my boy at the beach!


Posts: 2,194
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Aug 2010
Status: Offline
Post: #66
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

ablebodiedman Wrote:
Beau,

Yes, I do believe the Watchtower plays a central role in prophecy and have given plenty of good reasons why, all supported by scripture.

I have carefully read and examined what all the other posters in this thread think about Babylon the Great including your own thoughts.

The main objections that I can find to what I believe are:

1/ The Watchtower does not include "ALL" the earth.
2/ The tongues (or languages) are a language of the flesh that everyone speaks.
3/ The Watchtower is too insignificant to fulfill bible prophecy on a grand scale.

If we are on a bible research forum then I should be able to voice my beliefs like everyone else and if those beliefs are solid also overcome any objections.

If I cannot overcome the objections then perhaps I should take another look at what it is I personally believe.

On the other hand if you cannot overcome the beliefs which I stated and supported above then perhaps you should reconsider what it is that you believe.

What do I have to lose?

Thats a good question!

When Jesus Christ judges me I will tell him what I believed and the reasons why.

If he asks me about Babylon the Great then much of what I believe is recorded here.

I am simply using the words he wrote in the bible and measuring those words against what I see happening in the world.

Not only that, I am also sharing and testing what I see with Christian brothers on a bible discussion forum.

I have shared my strong convictions by writing a book, several blogs and making many videos.

I have done that also because of what Jesus Christ said in the bible.

I would not want Jesus Christ to condemn me for burying a silver talent.

Yes, I often consider your question above about what I have to lose.

I measure the concern it raises by asking myself the question; "what will I say to Jesus Christ when he judges me?"


In Christ

abe



We must believe what we must believe, bro Abe.

Your viewpoint is just as warranted and as justified as any other.

Thanks for your reply, but I must decline in engaging any further.

Cheers bro! :D


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


07-05-2011 12:02 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
man hu
Babe and any other piggy names


Posts: 2,498
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #67
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Beau Wetini Wrote:


We must believe what we must believe, bro Abe.

Your viewpoint is just as warranted and as justified as any other.

Thanks for your reply, but I must decline in engaging any further.

Cheers bro! :D

There lies the rub Abe. Many just give up even trying to reason any longer.

You have had many wise answers and as yet can't get it...as yet.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
07-05-2011 12:32 PM
Find all posts by this user
Beau Wetini
Me and my boy at the beach!


Posts: 2,194
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Aug 2010
Status: Offline
Post: #68
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

digging Wrote:
Good points again Beau,

To add to what you have been thinking. Did God not say to Adam because you have listened to the voice of your wife......and BEfORE that Adam said of her, she was flesh of my flesh and bone of my bones....

Soooooo was not Adam listening to his flesh when his listened to her...

Digging



Hi sis Digging - wow - thats cool! I never thought of it like that - and it seems to fit nicely -- so Adam listened to his flesh - his own desire - and also listened to his wife, who was also his flesh - instead of listening to God....I like it alot! :D

Just throwing some more random thoughts out there.....


And contrasting the role of a harlot, with the role of a wife.

A harlot lives outside of God's arrangment in terms of their being "one flesh" with another - whereas a wife is "one flesh" with her husband.

So in base terms, a harlot is desire that exists outside of God's arrangement.

If the beast (the flesh) is controlled by the harlot - then it is like the most expressed and explicit external form of that which is spoken about in Revelation. So each time a person aligns with their desire/s that exist outside of God's arrangement (not just sex, but anything that resonates with darkness), they become a beast controlled by the harlot.

Collectively, the mass consciousness of mankind has created many forms in which this dynamic expresses itself.

The one thing I used to have trouble with, was the part where God puts it into the heart of the beast to tear the harlot to pieces and to consume her.....

But I think ive found a resolution --- thats not to say that I am right, or anything - but it sure is fun to speculate!

Cheers sis! :D


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


07-05-2011 12:35 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Interpretum
This Space For Rent


Posts: 1,839
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #69
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Hi Resolute

Resolute Wrote:
Just a little note on the word "city" so that we aren't in danger of naming an actual physical city such as London, New York of the Vatican, have a look at the Strongs definition:


You say that as if it's WRONG to consider the possibility of BTG being an ACTUAL city (despite the angel telling us it's a city).

True, "New Jerusalem" is called a city in the Bible... but so was "old" Jerusalem. So it CAN be an actual city. In fact, much of the symbology of BTG is swiped from ancient Babylon, the CITY, and her description in Isaiah and Jeremiah... along with other cities like Tyre and Ninevah, all of whom were capital cities of their respective empires. Ninevah was also described as a harlot, and Babylon a mistress of kingdoms, responsible for all the shed blood on earth. (Jeremiah 51:49)

Also, in terms of the "mystery", the angel essentially REVEALS the mystery to John, in terms that his immediate audience could understand.

John's readers were already familiar with Daniel's prophecy of the "ten horned" kingdom that would follow after Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. That ten horned beast was the Roman kingdom. John uses the same symbology, even cluing his readers in by using the same descriptions as Daniel, i.e. "leopard", "bear", "lion" (Rev 13:2). In other words, the identity of the beast was perhaps a mystery to non-Christian readers, but to Christian readers, they would recognize the ten horned beast as the Roman empire, the dominant power of the day.

Daniel is given the interpretation of the ten horns: "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them". (Dan 7:24)

In John's day, these ten kings existed, but had not yet received a kingdom: "And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power." (Rev 17:12)

These ten kings emerged after the Roman empire split into two ("divided", Dan 2:41) and later fragmented into independent kingdoms.

This is the prophetic framework with which we should view John's symbolism, which clearly draws from Daniel.

The angel speaks in the present tense, to John in his own time. He is quite capable of speaking in the future tense, i.e. "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot". In other words, this is something he is GOING to do.

The angel foretells what the woman will do, using the future tense... "And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the harlot; they will make her desolate..."

However, the interpretation is given in the PRESENT tense. "And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth."

This was something John would be familiar with, there and then, at the time of writing... the 1st century... this great city already WAS one that had "dominion over the kings of the earth".

Bottom line is this. In Daniel's prophecies, there are only FOUR kingdoms that dominate the world, before Christ's kingdom... Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

There is also the mysterious "small horn", but that is treated as PART OF the 4th kingdom, and NOT some 5th kingdom.

The "ten horned" beast of Daniel is the Roman empire, and the "small horn" must emerge out of the Roman empire.

John draws from this symbology in Revelation. The first wild beast perfectly fits the description of the Roman empire of the 1st century onwards (compare Luke 2:1, Augustus having authority over "all the inhabited earth"), with the second wild beast being some offshoot of the Roman empire that acts as a false prophet to this empire, while at the same time existing "in its sight". There is, to me, an obvious candidate, and it still exists today and still acts as a false prophet.

However, the common denominator in all of this is ROME... or as 2nd century church father Iranaeus pointed out, the LATEINOS... the 4th kingdom of Daniel, which sums to 666.

True, this ain't as exciting as some "end times" stuff about the NWO and the Bildebergers etc... but it means Daniel and Revelation harmonize perfectly, and remarkably...match up with 2,000 years of history, still being accurate today!


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
07-05-2011 01:09 PM
Find all posts by this user
ablebodiedman
Member


Posts: 3,641
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Apr 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #70
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

man hu Wrote:

Beau Wetini Wrote:


We must believe what we must believe, bro Abe.

Your viewpoint is just as warranted and as justified as any other.

Thanks for your reply, but I must decline in engaging any further.

Cheers bro! :D

There lies the rub Abe. Many just give up even trying to reason any longer.

You have had many wise answers and as yet can't get it...as yet.


man hu,

If there were any really wise answers then I should not be able to overturn them so easily with reason and scripture.

Please don't just tell me I don't get it.

Explain why with a wise and reasonable answer



In Christ

abe


the spiritual man examines all things

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Bible Report
The Unforgivable Sin
07-05-2011 01:17 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Interpretum
This Space For Rent


Posts: 1,839
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #71
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

man hu Wrote:
"In her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones, and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth".

Rev:18:24


Remember, God also said this about ancient Babylon:

"And over Babylon the heavens and the earth and all that is in them will certainly cry out joyfully, for out of the north there will come to her the despoilers,' is the utterance of Jehovah. 'Not only was Babylon the cause for the slain ones of Israel to fall, but also at Babylon the slain ones of all the earth have fallen.'" (Jeremiah 51:48,49)

How was this possible? Babylon was the CAPITAL of the Babylonian empire, and Jehovah had granted Nebuchadnezzar rulership of the world. In this sense, then, it was responsible for all deaths on the earth. Even if it didn't literally cause every death, Jehovah CHARGED IT TO THEIR ACCOUNT.

Similarly with Jerusalem, the capital of Israel. The scribes and Pharisees, and their generation, were NOT literally responsible for the blood of Abel to Zechariah, but since they claimed to inherit those things, Jehovah CHARGED IT TO THEIR ACCOUNT.

What about the capital that ruled the world in John's day? Revelation shows that God was holding it bloodguilty as well, in the same way that the capitals Babylon and Jerusalem were bloodguilty.

John lived in the days of the 4th and last kingdom of Daniel... the ten horned Roman empire... and it shed more Jewish and Christian blood than Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece combined.

Do you think God let it off? Revelation says NO.


My Blog: The Prophetic Word

Latest post: Daniel 9 And The Seventy (70) Weeks - How Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled.
07-05-2011 01:17 PM
Find all posts by this user
Seraphim
Member


Posts: 2,075
Group: Registered
Joined: Jan 2007
Status: Offline
Post: #72
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Beau Wetini Wrote:

digging Wrote:
Good points again Beau,

To add to what you have been thinking. Did God not say to Adam because you have listened to the voice of your wife......and BEfORE that Adam said of her, she was flesh of my flesh and bone of my bones....

Soooooo was not Adam listening to his flesh when his listened to her...

Digging



Hi sis Digging - wow - thats cool! I never thought of it like that - and it seems to fit nicely -- so Adam listened to his flesh - his own desire - and also listened to his wife, who was also his flesh - instead of listening to God....I like it alot! :D

Just throwing some more random thoughts out there.....


And contrasting the role of a harlot, with the role of a wife.

A harlot lives outside of God's arrangment in terms of their being "one flesh" with another - whereas a wife is "one flesh" with her husband.

So in base terms, a harlot is desire that exists outside of God's arrangement.

If the beast (the flesh) is controlled by the harlot - then it is like the most expressed and explicit external form of that which is spoken about in Revelation. So each time a person aligns with their desire/s that exist outside of God's arrangement (not just sex, but anything that resonates with darkness), they become a beast controlled by the harlot.

Collectively, the mass consciousness of mankind has created many forms in which this dynamic expresses itself.

The one thing I used to have trouble with, was the part where God puts it into the heart of the beast to tear the harlot to pieces and to consume her.....

But I think ive found a resolution --- thats not to say that I am right, or anything - but it sure is fun to speculate!

Cheers sis! :D


Good points both of you there. Just adding to that my view that the creation account was largely about idolatry and the responce to it if you remember a post I made about that a while ago. Idolatry was always paralleled to adultery in scripture which is why the `works of flesh` vs the `fruits of the spirit`theme is so apparent in Genesis. Even the bit where Adam says this is `at last flesh of my flesh and bone of my bones` is interesting. Contrasted with the second Adam Jesus who says don't judge by outward appearance and even before.

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart."

07-05-2011 01:33 PM
Find all posts by this user
BeginAgain
Not So New


Posts: 178
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Jun 2010
Status: Offline
Post: #73
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Oh wow, what a great thread and so many interesting posts. Thank you Rez for rebooting this subject. I agree with a good many of you, but am concerned for a couple of you, who continue to cling to your "mother" with her self-made cultist importance.

IMHO, this is a very successful organization, that's all it is. All organized religions are part of BTG. There are good people in all religions, however, some are making attempts to get out for one reason or another. I'd like to think it's to worship God in a purer, more joyful way. But as for the WT, it's just an over glorified publishing company that now has convinced it's members earth-wide to sign over the land and it's buildings to the "mother" corporation, making it more wealthy than the Pope and Queen of England combined. Talk about greedy!

[Please keep in mind that this land was originally purchased by the people in that area with the local elders as legal owners on the titles. My parents being of those who have shelled out thousands and thousands of dollars over the years to help buy properties and build KHs, only to be told that this new arrangement is better because now the brothers won't have to pay anymore property taxes].

I thank God for everything everyday, as I'm sure you all do, but right now I say a special "thank you " for the instant surge of information that the internet provides. Anyone can find and follow their heart, the internet brings it all. There is overwhelming evidence that the WT is as dirty as the next church group (local or international), but it is not anything special or unique that would place it in front of the rest. It's a big money machine! (cut them apron strings before you get strangled)

w/love & respect

07-05-2011 08:50 PM
Find all posts by this user
man hu
Babe and any other piggy names


Posts: 2,498
Group: Moderator
Joined: Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Post: #74
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Lovely reply BeginAgain.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
07-06-2011 01:27 AM
Find all posts by this user
COMankind
Member


Posts: 337
Group: Registered Plus
Joined: Oct 2010
Status: Offline
Post: #75
RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

"I adorned you with jewelry: I put bracelets on your arms and a necklace around your neck, and I put a ring on your nose, earrings on your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. So you were adorned with gold and silver; your clothes were of fine linen and costly fabric and embroidered cloth. Your food was fine flour, honey and olive oil. You became very beautiful and rose to be a queen. And your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, because the splendor I had given you made your beauty perfect, declares the Sovereign LORD."

“‘But you trusted in your beauty and used your fame to become a prostitute. You lavished your favors on anyone who passed by and your beauty became his.d You took some of your garments to make gaudy high places, where you carried on your prostitution.

And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough?

" This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because you poured out your wealth and exposed your nakedness in your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable idols, and because you gave them your children’s blood, therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness."

This is Ezekiel 16 - a good chunk of it. It is in reference to Jerusalem, an actual city.

When Revelation was written, it was written to fulfill Jewish prophecy - keep in mind that Jews (even disciples) were looking for the temple to be rebuilt.

"A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth....The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days." Rev 12:1,6

This is God's bride. She is protected for a short period of time while she goes off to the desert.

"Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries...I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus." - Rev 17:3-4,6

This is a woman in a desert, who is a prostitute. She was adorned with jewels and riches, but she committed adultery (as if she was pure or married at one time, but decided to do something impure)

IMO - The Jews & Christians would have automatically known this to be Jerusalem back then. Why else would "New Jerusalem" have been used lovingly in the vision as the replacement?


-----

BTG could very well be something much smaller than we all want it to be. And just because it is smaller, does not mean it cant have significant impact and meaning for us today. Adam, Job, Abraham and Noah most certainly had a huge impact, and they were just individual men! So too with an entire nation in the first century.

in love


philia, COMankind

"The tent of God is with mankind" - Rev 21:3

07-06-2011 09:14 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Pages (15): « First < Previous 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 Next > Last »

View a Printable Version
Send this Thread to a Friend
Subscribe to this Thread | Add Thread to Favorites

Forum Jump: