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Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts
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Resolute
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Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

I'm putting this thread in the controversy room because it is a rather difficult topic to nail down. This isn't an attempt to do so. Rather my intention is to reopen a discussion to seek an expansion, seeing that we're getting close to that time when we'll be called upon to "get out of her" or else.....

I don’t know how many times I’ve thought and rethought about Babylon the Great -- what it is and how we might define it. It’s really been a case of, as the French say, “Cherchez la femme” (look for the woman).

Babylon the Great has been well labeled “a mystery” and “the mother of the harlots”. The fact that she’s called a mystery suggests that it may be difficult to understand who and what “she” is until God’s time to completely reveal this information to his people. This is also borne out by the fact that God’s people will be found in her and will have to be told to “get out of her” before he brings about her downfall.

Here’s where I am right now....lookin’ through a glass darkly.

I go to Genesis 3:14-15 for the first mention of two great rivals. It reads:

“And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent:
“Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.””


Who is this woman who will be at enmity with the serpent? Not Eve. Not Mary. No, it is the same woman who is mentioned at Revelation 12:1. It is something spiritual, something heavenly. I believe it’s necessary to identify this woman before one can figure out the identity of her rival, Babylon the Great.

Paul touches on this identity in Galatians 4:26,

"But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.”

As Paul said earlier in that chapter the woman is a covenant, a
covenant that had its start with the promise of Genesis 3:15 and encompassing the promises to Abraham and Sarah and which laid the basis for the New Covenant.

This heavenly woman of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 is the "mother covenant" which brings forth a seed, a seed which is Christ and all those who are “in” Christ.

“YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.” -- Galatians 3:26-29

By drawing a parallel based on the words of Genesis 3:15 I’ve concluded that Satan has put into motion an “anti-covenant” and that anti-covenant has also produced a seed. That is why Revelation speaks of Babylon the Great as being the mother of the harlots and the disgusting things of the earth.

So far I’ve concluded that Babylon the Great is not any single organization but rather the whole machinery that manipulates the opposition to the new covenant. Whatever “it” is, it controls the world’s religions, finances, commerce and politics. Many of God’s people are presently caught in this machine.

The order of the day seems to me to be to identify how we may be entangled in this blood-thirsty and blood-guilty entity that is completely at odds with Yahweh, his Christ and his people. The next task would be to pray for deliverance as in the Lord’s model prayer.

“Deliver (or rescue) us from the wicked one.”

The forgoing is a start. Discussion is welcomed.

love to all,:grouphug:
rez


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06-30-2011 06:20 PM
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Beau Wetini
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Yep.....thats what I think, imo....


Take a look around. Everything the Kingdom is not, is exactly what Babylon is.


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


06-30-2011 09:39 PM
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man hu
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

I tend to agree. Obviously the bride of Christ is pointed out as being a virgin. This is contrasted with the other woman in Revelation which is a harlot. The counterfeit prostitute has to be removed before the marriage of the Lamb takes place.The bride and the Lamb make up the kindom, so the prostitute must be the anti-kingdom, a counterfeit of the real thing in every way.
The kingdom includes kings and priests, rulers and spiritual, so I think as a counterpart Babylon the Great inludes more than just religion.

The great city that Nebuchadnezzar built was more than just a religious centre it was the centre of an empire. The words 'Babylon the Great' were first uttered by him and he was instantly struck down.

Going back further Babel was intended to be a centre of control, rivalling Jehovah. As coccus ilicis pointed out the original meaning of the name was 'gateway of god', but after the languages were confused it came to mean confusion.
Love vicks


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07-01-2011 12:34 AM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

I think Babylon the Great is a harlot because it is THE Kingdom.

Jesus Christs kingdom undermined by Satan.

Just as Jerusalem was called a harlot in Ezekiel Chapter 23.

I believe the metaphor in Revelation is consistent with the metaphor in Ezekiel.



In Christ

abe


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07-01-2011 12:51 AM
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man hu
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

ablebodiedman Wrote:
I think Babylon the Great is a harlot because it is THE Kingdom.
Jesus Christs kingdom undermined by Satan.
Just as Jerusalem was called a harlot in Ezekiel Chapter 23.
I believe the metaphor in Revelation is consistent with the metaphor in Ezekiel.

In Christ
abe


Jesus said, 'my kingdom is no part of this world'.
Satan cannot touch it.
It was whisked away from the dragon, to the safety of the Father.


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07-01-2011 02:09 AM
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Seraphim
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Babylon the great is not a physical place on earth although it may be more prevalent in some places than others. When Jesus asked us to pray that God will be done on earth, that qualifies the idea that Jesus` kingdom is no part of the world. In other words the Roman empire was somewhat opposed to Jesus` kingship but more importantly and primary was that directed to Gods people, the Jews. Of course the wheat and weeds grow together until the harvest and that harvest was the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century. Applied today, anywhere that doesn't have the fruits of the spirit, and a fruit is another form of seed is not the domain of the king, or in other words the kingdom of heaven. So logically Babylon the great being the kingdoms antithesis is not a an antithesis in location, but in fruits, attitudes and values on the heart.

Why pray for Gods will to be done on earth and for the kingdom to come if the statement that `Gods kingdom is no part of the world` is to be understood as literally as the Lords prayer? Of course either its future on it is now. If future we can stick to the idea if we like that Gods kingdom and Babylon the great are very literal, bordering on physical, locatable places as opposed to works of the flesh, which itself gets contrasted with fruits of the spirit. Its a rather passive view though, which inspires no action at all but a rather permissive view that we can do nothing to avert a future Armageddon or the corruption of Gods own people via ever increasing weed like Christians who are in of course, organised religion. Not like us who have got out of Babylon in our white robes and wait for the inevitable destruction. Doesn't seem that consistent which the example of Jesus. Jerusalem above is our mother because the kingdom of heaven through Jesus inspired the possibility to achieve the fruits of the spirit. A mother giving birth to her children! No literal children or fruit of a womb, but the more metaphorical fruits of the spirit in the heart. The view that anywhere Gods will in done inside and out is in fact the kingdom of heaven is much more in harmony with the example of Jesus, and means that his statement that his kingdom is no part of this world was a statement of fact at the time, not advice to stay out of politics or whatever it is in the world because the idea is for the kingdom to come without dramatic display because it starts in the heart.

Babylon the great then must be then `spiritual Jews`, to place it in the modern context, who are not really spiritual Jews but fake ones who do not produce the fruits of the spirit. By extension the beast they ride on are the same type of persons who are not spiritual Jews, but whoever in the world. That way of understanding enables us to see that those on the world who are not spiritual Jews, or in other words Christians, who are producing the fruits of the spirit don't have to be included with the beast or that on top of it, Babylon the great.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom belonged to this world, my servants would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But for now my kingdom is not from here."
Joh 18:37 Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. I was born for this, and I came into the world for this: to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice."

Of course it has to be noted that there was one who fought that Jesus not be delivered up.

Mat 26:50 Jesus said to him, "Friend, why are you here?" Then some men came forward, took hold of Jesus, and arrested him.
Mat 26:51 Suddenly, one of the men with Jesus pulled out his sword and cut off the ear of the chief priest's servant.

In other words in that person the kingdom was there inside. He was one of its subjects trying to protect his king. Of course using a sword is not a fruit of the spirit hence Jesus` rebuke, but he at least understood who his king was. The harlot of Babylon, in this case being the chief priest with his servant who`s ear was cut off, along with Judas, also the other leaders of the people with a mob at hand who are the beast he and Judas was sitting on. Later the beast were the Roman authorities used by this Harlot to kill Jesus and later persecute Christians in General. Why a Harlot? Because they were Gods people.

Why a beast? because it was a powerful thing being used for the evil and adulterous ends of Gods people who were weeds, or the serpents seed, with their works of the flesh with no fruits for or of the kingdom.

Now days if we understand these things in the way I describe above, we don't have to worry about what mountain range we should flee to, or what bit of the literal world we have to get out of, or worry about when the call to get out of it all comes, and worry about hearing that call at the right time, ect ect. We can understand that the kingdom and Babylon as understood in the first century can be applied now in our time in terms of copying Jesus or Judas. Not their actions but their hearts. Those inner works of the flesh or fruits of the spirit, for they are the kingdom of God or Babylon the great. Its not about external location at all in modern times but the inner location of the heart. We flee from hate, not to the mountains! In so doing we get closer to the real invisible God who used to appear on literal mountains because that is where people thought God lived back then. This is why God is invisible because the kingdom in inside, and comes not in a way seen by men. The end is not round the corner unless we bring it in by the weapons of the spirit by doing what Jesus did. We die for and to the world, not the other way around. If we think that Jesus is going to come again riding on a magnificent white horse into new Jerusalem, we might want to remember that it wasn't a warier steed the last time, although it was when he came again to destroy literal Jerusalem via that same beast in the first century as it were, so that the harlot was suddenly turned on and savaged just like Revelation depicts. No it was a small donkey. Very humble, not showy and definitely not obvious.

07-01-2011 08:03 AM
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Beau Wetini
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Yes.....totally agree Brian....


It's the Babylonian Spirit.....

"My Kingdom is no part of this kosmos....".


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


07-01-2011 08:25 AM
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isomam
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Beau Wetini Wrote:
Everything the Kingdom is not, is exactly what Babylon is.


dem words oughtta be bronzed and put into the 'kingdom hall of fame.'

[the only use of the term 'kingdom hall' i will ever endorse.]

i agree with the other comments above, too.

[well, except for our friend abe's, of course. -- nothin' personal, abe.]


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
07-01-2011 09:02 AM
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gogh
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Revelation 17:18..."And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

:coffeeread:


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
07-01-2011 10:35 AM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

man hu Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:
I think Babylon the Great is a harlot because it is THE Kingdom.
Jesus Christs kingdom undermined by Satan.
Just as Jerusalem was called a harlot in Ezekiel Chapter 23.
I believe the metaphor in Revelation is consistent with the metaphor in Ezekiel.

In Christ
abe


Jesus said, 'my kingdom is no part of this world'.
Satan cannot touch it.
It was whisked away from the dragon, to the safety of the Father.


man hu,

Jesus Christ also said this:

Matthew 13:24-26
Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. 26 When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also.

He makes it very clear that Satan is going to undermine the Kingdom.


I think the destruction of Babylon the Great is what Jesus Christ was talking about when he said this:

Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be


Very similar to the demise of Babylon the Great:

Revelation 18:9-10
9 “And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, 10 while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’


Both THE Kingdom AND Babylon the Great are burned with fire and the end result is weeping and gnashing (or beating) themselves in grief.



In Christ

abe


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07-01-2011 10:50 AM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

gogh Wrote:
Revelation 17:18..."And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

:coffeeread:



gogh,

In order to appreciate that scripture you have to understand that "the kings of the earth" are the saints.


Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”


In Christ

abe


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07-01-2011 12:01 PM
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man hu
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

ablebodiedman Wrote:

gogh Wrote:
Revelation 17:18..."And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

:coffeeread:

gogh,
In order to appreciate that scripture you have to understand that "the kings of the earth" are the saints.
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”
In Christ
abe

"In order to appreciate that scripture you have to understand that "the kings of the earth" are the saints".

What?

Abe you consistantly confuse and try to meld different and diverse scriptures and leave me scratching my head.
Just as some people take every parable concerning sheep and try to meld them together, you do the same.
I don't know where you get this stuff, try reasoning with us instead.
Try reading context.


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07-01-2011 03:26 PM
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ablebodiedman
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

man hu Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:

gogh Wrote:
Revelation 17:18..."And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

:coffeeread:

gogh,
In order to appreciate that scripture you have to understand that "the kings of the earth" are the saints.
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”
In Christ
abe

"In order to appreciate that scripture you have to understand that "the kings of the earth" are the saints".

What?

Abe you consistantly confuse and try to meld different and diverse scriptures and leave me scratching my head.
Just as some people take every parable concerning sheep and try to meld them together, you do the same.
I don't know where you get this stuff, try reasoning with us instead.
Try reading context.


man hu,

Ok, I'll try.

Where do I get this stuff.

It is right out of the Book of Revelation.

The context of the entire Book of Revelation is explained in the first few verses.

The "kings of the earth" are first introduced in verse 5 of Chapter 1:

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”


Revelation 1:5-6
To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

John addresses the audience for the book as "us".

"Us" are the ones who are made "to be" a kingdom.

aka kings --------- aka saints

Now the context is established!


That these saints are "kings of the earth" is reinforced in Revelation Chapter 5.

Revelation 5:8-10
And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”


Popular opinion has it that when the "kings of the earth" are mentioned anywhere else in the Book of Revelation they presume the context for "Kings of the Earth" established right at the start has somehow changed to no longer mean the saints.

They now think "kings of the earth" means pagan kings!

The context changes in peoples imagination.

Weird how that happens!

It makes me scratch my head.


In Christ

abe


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man hu
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Starting from when did the kings of the earth become the saints?


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07-01-2011 04:18 PM
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AlienResident
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RE: Babylon the Great -- recent thoughts

Hi Rez and all,

I continue to be amazed by the fact that you continue to ignore one essential aspect of the manner in which Revelation has been presented to John.

Now for the sake of simplification, I present you an example.

Imagine yourself sitting in a cinema watching a documentary about an european medival saga. Let's say you were wondering who the actors might be in reality, because they have disguised themselves in costumes for the role they were playing.

Imagine someone who has actually been present during the production of the documentary sitting beside you and explaining you the identity of certain actors. At one point, you asked him who the black man playing the role of a medieval slave might be. Let's say he told you as follows: "The one playing the old slave is Morgan Freeman."

Now would you simply ignore what the person tells you and contiue to wonder who the black actor is in reality?

But that is exactly what we are doing, when we over-mystify Babylon the Great. We willfully ignore the angel who was commissioned to explain the identity of the "actors" at revelation 17-18. And that is key to understand who is who in the story.

In revelation, John was watching a documentary. The only difference is that he was watching a documentary of not the past, but what is to take place soon.

Now, if you were John watching the "documentary" with an angel sitting beside you explaining the true identity of the "actors" involved, would you doubt his explanations? Would you simply ignore them? Would you look for other "entities" that could potentially come in to question?

I do think John was taking the angel at face value.

Now, one of the "actors" in the documentary John was seeing was the woman called Babylon the Great. Seeing John wondering about the true identity of her (similar to you wondering about the identity of the old black man in the documentary), the angel explains him who she actually is. Namely: "And the woman whom you saw means the great city." (The same as the man besides you in the cinema telling you the identity of the old slave as Morgan Freeman.)

Again, if you were John, would you think even for one second that the woman can possibly be a Political, religious or fanancial system that is going to surface in a distant future in 2000 years? I don't think so. Rather, you would know that she is the great city that is dominating the world you are living in back then.

Think of the rest for yourself.

In love,

AR


Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.- MLK

07-01-2011 04:52 PM
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