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Why... Heaven?
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Seraphim
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Post: #16
RE: Why... Heaven?

No reincarnation is a repeating cycle but what I'm talking about isn't. Like it or not everyone who is alive today will be dead in a little over 100 years.

07-18-2011 10:35 AM
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llee
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Post: #17
RE: Why... Heaven?

Seraphim Wrote:
No reincarnation is a repeating cycle but what I'm talking about isn't. Like it or not everyone who is alive today will be dead in a little over 100 years.


Hi bro Brian:hibye:

Is there a Scripture to go along with this thought?:dontknow: Some of your ideas just leave me speechless, but this one ive got to follow up on, thanx:giverose::hug::heartbeat:

sis


Psalms 68:11 "Jehovah himself gives the saying;
The women telling the good news are a large army."

"Every civilization learns what it needs to know, and the next one forgets it." Gil Grissom CSI


07-18-2011 01:11 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #18
RE: Why... Heaven?

LOL Well as long as they make people think. :)

There are not really any scriptures to back up directly what im saying but there are a few hints in some that something interesting is in store. The rest of it is deduction on my part which could be wrong. One scripture that comes to mind is this one.

Psa 102:25 Long ago You established the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but You will endure; all of them will wear out like clothing. You will change them like a garment, and they will pass away.

I quoted it before.

Heb 9:27 Indeed, just as people are appointed to die once and after that to be judged,

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, an innocent person for the guilty, so that he could bring you to God. He was put to death in the sphere of the flesh but was made alive in the sphere of the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which he went and made a proclamation to those imprisoned spirits

07-18-2011 02:30 PM
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llee
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Post: #19
RE: Why... Heaven?

Hi bro Brian:hibye:

Thanx for your response that has me "thunking" even more:thinking::D:giverose:

Keep seeking, asking, seaching, begging, indeed everybody:read::grouphug::heartbeat:

Onward and Upward:cheer::cheer::cheer:

sis


Psalms 68:11 "Jehovah himself gives the saying;
The women telling the good news are a large army."

"Every civilization learns what it needs to know, and the next one forgets it." Gil Grissom CSI


07-18-2011 03:34 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #20
RE: Why... Heaven?

Seraphim Wrote:
No reincarnation is a repeating cycle but what I'm talking about isn't. Like it or not everyone who is alive today will be dead in a little over 100 years.


Thats assuming that the spirit world is the final destination for mankind. There is every chance that God will recycle souls into another form, physically. The fact that we really dont know what God has in store for man after he dies means the game is wide open.


And like it or not, there are some who are alive today, who may not be dead in little over 100 years.

Thats the thing with "the future" - we just dont know.

And although we can use the past as a projection of what the future may hold - there is a good chance that that may not be the best way to approach it.


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


07-18-2011 08:58 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #21
RE: Why... Heaven?

Lets let reasonable people decide what is more likely I suggest.

07-18-2011 10:00 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #22
RE: Why... Heaven?

Seraphim Wrote:
Lets let reasonable people decide what is more likely I suggest.



LOL - well, whatever is more likely, is still speculation at best.

Those with a view towards the Earth being the final home of mankind will see it that way, and those with a view towards Heaven being the final home of mankind will see it that way too.

In the end - perhaps they are both right ---- or possible, both are wrong.


Thats the great thing about speculation -- no one has the "right way" of how things will actually turn out.


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


07-18-2011 10:11 PM
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isomam
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Post: #23
RE: Why... Heaven?

Beau Wetini Wrote:
And although we can use the past as a projection of what the future may hold - there is a good chance that that may not be the best way to approach it.


there is a mandatory disclaimer for all investments advertised for sale (mutual funds, stock in any corporation, etc.) which (in the usa) must be included by law. ...

"past performance is no guarantee of future results."

i'd say our eternal future constitutes an "investment" of sorts, wouldn't you?

the very huge difference, though, is that our future does come with a guarantee: the love of god as displayed in the ransom sacrifice offered by christ jesus.

the scripture gogh quoted earlier in the thread from 1 cor., chapter 2, is one of my favorites too.

"eye has not seen and ear has not heard what god has in store for those who love him."

why do we need to know any more than that?


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
07-18-2011 11:09 PM
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digging
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Post: #24
RE: Why... Heaven?

Man you guys make me crazy some times!!!!

Jesus was resurrected back to a living human being. Clearly God's plan is for humans to receive the gift of everlasting life on earth.

IF he wanted us to think we would be spirits Jesus would have been made of smoke or something after his resurrection!!!!!

There are a few reasons this idea can be weaved into our minds.

One I'm going to point out can be painful to consider without being offended.

Remember one of the reasons Eve was tempted?

You will BE LIKE GOD......that is the one of the deeper foundations of this teaching/belief.

If you really want to see it as clear as day take the time to look at what was promised to Abraham and note that all faithful are to receive with him. He never received his gift and will only received it in the resurrection.

Evelasting Life on earth blessed by YHWH.

Is the tree of life STILL not enough?

Digging

07-19-2011 01:39 AM
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wolfie
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Post: #25
RE: Why... Heaven?

when I was a child I went to the Baptist Church who had some mighty on fire preachers. They all preached heaven after death and they all preached a burning hell for ''sinners.'' I would lay in bed at night as a little kid and try and figure out my fate as neither destination seemed right to me. I didn't think heaven sounded right and floating on clouds but I also couldn't think what I had done to deserve going into a burning hell. I so agree with digging--what resonates and feels right to me is right here on earth. I have no doubt but what gravity has quite a hold on me--I think of Lazarus in times like this and his resurrection--he was brought back to what he was before his death and that was a joyous thing. If he had gone off to heaven or had looked forward to some heavenly life and was in bliss over that I would think he'd be kind of upset -- Most of us don't live a real easy life on this planet right now and there's lots to improve on with health issues, financial issues, and there's enough reasons to grieve to sink the biggest ship in the world if not the world But everything is there for a supremely wonderful life when changes occur to make it so and plenty of room for
1 Cor. 2:9 to have fulfillment---plenty :love: ...what I have been concerned with is that believing in an altered state of being or assending to heaven means that somehow and on some level we have bought the devil's lie that he told Eve --''you surely will not die.'' --well, surely they did die and untold gazillions after them have too--but that is how I see it--and that is what resonates with me... :love:


''In the midst of winter I finally learned that in me there was an invincible summer.'' Albert Camus

''live simply, speak kindly, love unconditionally''
07-19-2011 07:32 AM
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Seraphim
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Post: #26
RE: Why... Heaven?

digging Wrote:
Man you guys make me crazy some times!!!!

Jesus was resurrected back to a living human being. Clearly God's plan is for humans to receive the gift of everlasting life on earth.

IF he wanted us to think we would be spirits Jesus would have been made of smoke or something after his resurrection!!!!!

There are a few reasons this idea can be weaved into our minds.

One I'm going to point out can be painful to consider without being offended.

Remember one of the reasons Eve was tempted?

You will BE LIKE GOD......that is the one of the deeper foundations of this teaching/belief.

If you really want to see it as clear as day take the time to look at what was promised to Abraham and note that all faithful are to receive with him. He never received his gift and will only received it in the resurrection.

Evelasting Life on earth blessed by YHWH.

Is the tree of life STILL not enough?

Digging

I think to suggest that because Jesus was resurrected in his human flesh this should be taken as an argument that we will all be on earth forever is faulty. If that was the intention then why did he go up to heaven and become ever after present in spirit. Its a strange way to make that point. It works much better as evidence for the direct opposite view that heaven is our destination.

Also there is no real reason to think that spirits are spirits in their own domain. It seems very logical that they have bodies of some sort because all creation has to be created in order to exist. We perceive them as clouds of smoke or whatever sometimes but that's because the paradigm of heaven is not the same as the paradigm we live in. Ever wondered how spirits can have a war? That`s why, because they can inflict harm on each other because to each other they operate based on the same rules unlike when we see them in our universe. The two systems operate on different laws so we never see spirits, angels or demons as they really are but indirectly. Paul grasped this when he talked about seeing Christ face to face but now we see things as through an ill formed reflection.

In my view the real fib in the Genesis account wasn't that man was going to be like God, but the implied lie that we were not like God at that point. Hence the prodigal son is Jesus answer to the Genesis account in that the brother who had not left home already had all that was the Fathers being his son being like his Father. An inheritance is only needed when one leaves home because if one stays with the Father one already has all that the Father has. Its said that Jesus endured a torture stake for the joy that was set before him. That joy was to be with his Father in heaven, not on the earth.

There are powerful arguments for both sides of this issue so I suggest a scientific look at how viable it really is that the earth could exist forever. If we rely too much on the laws of physics having to be altered or changed though, as opposed to where and what we are, not only do we get into the issue of couldn't god get it right the first time! but also why after billions of years would it need changing. Perhaps, just perhaps God doesn't want the earth to exists forever and therefore some other abode in going to be needed. I wonder why there are so many abodes in Jesus Fathers house. Its not some specific figure like 144000 but many.

07-19-2011 09:45 AM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #27
RE: Why... Heaven?

LOL....come on Brian, thats like suggesting we take a scientific look at how miracles work. Its the same domain. If and possibly when God sees fit to "change" the physical to allow humans to exist forever on Earth - it more than likely will be a miracle or sorts, but on a much larger scale - which according to the parameters you have mentioned elsewhere - it cant be scientifically verified, because miracles by their nature, exist outside the realm of science.


Again, looking at the past (or more correctly, the present) as an indicator of how things will always be - works for many things - but the in the realm of spirituality - there is a good chance it may not be the case.



Brian Wrote:
If we rely too much on the laws of physics having to be altered or changed though, as opposed to where and what we are, not only do we get into the issue of couldn't god get it right the first time! but also why after billions of years would it need changing.


Not quite bro - I dont think those are valid issues in the minds of those who believe the Earth (and by extension, the physical, albeit an enhanced physical realm) is the true home of mankind (and by extension other sentient beings throughout the universe - when that time comes - or not!).

God did get it right the first time - it all happened according to His Will - I think that is an important factor to take into account. Otherwise, the next question after that becomes - well, why couldnt God just make humans be robots, so they wouldnt sin - which then defeats the aspect of free-will and so on.

Going with the paradigm that satan mislead the first pair, and brought them into his kingdom, and the physical was changed accordingly (or at least the first pair were then vibrating outside of "The Garden" aka forced outside of "The Garden") - that was, imo, the Will of God - in order for mankind to learn, and for man to eventually come to know Jesus. So I dont think that the first point is a solid issue.



Brian Wrote:
but also why after billions of years would it need changing.


LOL - again - its God Will, to do whatever the heck He wants, when He wants, according to how He wants, where He wants, to whoever He wants.

Besides - you are also presupposing billions of years have passed - that may also not be the case (although, Interpretum will make a far better case than I can, seeing as I am on the fence with it).

Also - why after billions of years did God bring humans about? Why after billions of years did God become friends with Abraham? Why after billions of years did God see fit to send His only begotten Son?

It all seems kinda pointless without the all encompassing factor of God's Will in the picture --- and if God's Will is for the physical to change - then hey, He Will do it, if that happens to be the case.

So, im not sure that is a solid issue either - at least in the minds of those who believe that humans are earthbound (or physical bound, in an enhanced physical realm).


Brian Wrote:
Perhaps, just perhaps God doesn't want the earth to exists forever and therefore some other abode in going to be needed. I wonder why there are so many abodes in Jesus Fathers house.



LOL....sounds like God doing a bit of recycling to me! ;D


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


07-19-2011 05:54 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #28
RE: Why... Heaven?

It would take me to long to argue why I don't agree so I wont. Cant be bothered really.

07-19-2011 06:24 PM
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Interpretum
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Post: #29
RE: Why... Heaven?

Hi Digging

digging Wrote:
You will BE LIKE GOD......that is the one of the deeper foundations of this teaching/belief.


There is nothing wrong with being "like God"... in the true sense.

Jesus was "like God". He knew "good and evil". He rejected the evil, and choose the good. He sacrificed his life not only for his friends, family and followers... but for all mankind and womankind who had ever lived, and who had not yet even been born.

Quote:
Evelasting Life on earth blessed by YHWH.

Is the tree of life STILL not enough?


I agree, but that doesn't really answer the question of why Paul essentially believed he was going to heaven... or at the very least, to wherever Christ would be.

I note that following the Lamb WHEREVER he goes, implies they could be in Heaven... OR on Earth... depending on where the Lamb is at the time.

And I seem to recall a slight hint in the New Testament that he is... coming back ;)


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07-19-2011 06:41 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #30
RE: Why... Heaven?

Seraphim Wrote:
It would take me to long to argue why I don't agree so I wont. Cant be bothered really.


LOL - no need to argue or reply at all mate -- im not one for doing that much these days - my main point is that, imo, this is wide open - and ANYTHING can happen.

If humans all end up in the spirit world - well, thats fine with me.


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


07-19-2011 06:57 PM
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